Sympathy for the Devil - favourite Traitor Primarchs.

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Nice and straight forward this one, as it's about your favourite Traitor Primarch, and the reasons behind that favour.

My one is easy.

It's Perturabo.

One of the Emperor's two siege masters, he got dealt an exceptionally ****ty hand. Whereas as Dorn and his Imperial Fists got all the breaks and the glory, the Iron Warriors got stiffed with the grubby, grotty hard work of laying siege, and quite often weren't even given the honour of the kill, as other Legionnes Astartes got to exploit the breaches bought with Iron Warrior blood.

I mean, wouldn't you be pissed off with your Dad if you did all the work, and your arse of a Brother repeatedly got the praise? And I know he's not the only one to get the ****ty end of the stick, but he had potential.

Angron? Stiffed of a glorious death, but ultimately guided too much by the brain butchery in his head.

Lorgar? Victim of a necessary censure, and really, really bad advisors. In a sense, both Lorgar's fathers stiffed him.

Horus and Fulgrim don't really count, as their turning wasn't particularly self determined.

Alpharius? Listened to Xenos. Took their word for it. Prick.

Mortarion? Yeah ok, similar situation to Perturabo.

Magnus? Betrayed by Horus, not The Emperor overall. It was Horus that set the Wolves on him!

Rights, over to you. Let's hear some sympathy for the devil!

[Tyrendian]

As a preface, please don't get offended by me slandering your favourite Primarchs - I'm just too lazy currently to phrase things politely, no slights are intended :)

My favourite is probably Perturabo as well, closely followed by Magnus (who, for the longest time, was still loyal far into the Heresy; or at least not working actively against Big Daddy E but hardly able to go back...).

Several of the others, on the other hand, I can't stand - Mortarion is a grumpy dude with no personality beyond being grumpy, Angron is an angry idiot with no personality beyond being angry (through no fault of his own, but still), Fulgrim is just an idiot for the way he got corrupted...
Curze (whom you forgot, shame on you!) is odd... depends a lot on who wrote him and what his mood is; in Vulkan Lives and the flashbacks in ADBs NL trilogy I found him to be just about as pathetic and pitiful as it's possible for a Primarch to be, while in Unremembered Empire he's all kinds of evil genius awesomesauce.
Alpharius is... odd... in a really fun way, what with taking the guise of line Legionaries all the time just to confuse the ever-living daylight out of the world. Also, I kinda like to think he not only believes the Cabal, but also was right in doing so.
Horus is... kinda too important to really like or dislike for me; without him the whole thing wouldn't have happened, so it's kinda hard to be angry with him :) Also, he's pretty much a victim of that dolt Erebus showing him nothing but the truth (in that vision of the Emperor being worshipped as a god in the future, and only half of his brothers being remembered fondly - must've stunk to think you'd be erased from all memory...)

[Charon]

I guess the only ones left that are somewhat likable are Magnus and Alpharius.
The rest was cool until some writers decided to make them complete morons. Lorgar had an entire book with him *****ing and moaning. Angron is like Hulk without Bruce Banner and even less personality. Mortarion is so busy looking grim that he forgot to add some personality. Fulgrim turned into a complete idiot and while I really liked the book because of the creepy/disgusting things happening all around I disliked Fulgrim most of the time.
Torn on Curze but well he went mad after all. Pertuarbo has the same personality as Mortarion.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Ha, I don't like Perturabo at all.

I have a soft spot for Lorgar and Magnus.

[Mr Mystery]

Some more thoughts on the tragedy of Perturabo....

He was the equal of Rogal Dorn when it came to siege craft, excelling in the laying of a siege rather than building a fastness - though of course that's a matter of perspective.

He or Dorn were essential if Horus' uprising was to succeed. Why? Well, the Rebel Legionnes Astartes rushed to Terra, knowing their best chance came from minimising the time the rest of the Imperium had to react and reinforce, given their target was glaringly obvious.

Had Perturabo not turned, which again is entirely due to the Emperor being a dick to him, the Rebels would in all likelihood been repulsed from The Emperor's palace with crippling losses to both men and materiel.

In the nightmare scenario for Horus, imagine if the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists had both defended the Palace....the words 'no chance, tosser' spring to mind....

Now don't get me wrong, the whole tale of the Heresy is a tale of tragedy - so little of it was unavoidable had The Emperor been more even handed in his treatment of his sons? I mean there's tough love and healthy competition to be added to inevitable sibling rivalry, and then there's just being a dick to some of them whilst strongly favouring others.

But yeah. Poor old Perturabo. He didn't deserve the treatment he and his Legion received.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I suspect you're giving a bit too much weight to Perturabo's version of events. ;)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I like Magnus, he's the Icarus character, the one who flew too high and far and came crashing down because of it. He's intelligent and progressive, but also arrogant and naive. He thought he was his own master, but he was always a puppet dancing on a string, waiting for its master's call to hit the stage...

[Drew da Destroya]

Alpharius Omegon, but they sorta doesn't count since they're still loyal. But they're so damn fun!

Otherwise, I end up feeling bad for most of the Fallen Primarchs, but I don't particularly like them. Horus I guess would be my next favorite, since he's pretty awesome pre-fall, but he had basically no choice in whether or not to turn evil that it's sorta hard to judge him.

[Lurker]

hmmm, that's hard to say really. It comes down to Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon for me.

I like Magnus cuz he's kinda like the kicked dog you really empathize with. Yeah sure, he was arrogant but he was also misunderstood. He didn't deserve to have the wolves set loose on him (especially since they despised Magnus and his boys already). He was only trying to help, lol! He's the tragic hero made villain because in the end it served someone elses' purpose.

A/O - I really like because they did what they did for the right reasons, (even though it meant the death of humanity, it would eventually save everyone else). it's that altruistic virtue (that we HOPE humanity is capable of) that makes them very likable I think. And there's also the possibility that they still may not have wholly given themselves to Chaos, but in the End may come riding over the hill like the cavalry at the last moment. (I can dream... :p)

[Stephen James Hand]

I'd have to go for Fulgrim.

He brings an element of culture and style that the other Primarchs lack, but is still still technically savvy enough to build awesome relic weapons

He didn't rename his legion, and a traitor legion called 'The Emperor's Children' is just cheeky.

He's the coolest looking demon out there.

He did for 2 other Primarchs, including Papa Smurf, which would be enough to top my list by itself.

Why none of the others?

Konrad Curze - the Night Lords are my favorite traitor legion but Konrad has 3 big drawbacks for me:
He's self obsessed and mopey
He's a cheap batman rip off, and I don't even like the original that much
He's dead.

Perturarbo - I like his cold logic and technical skill & inventiveness, but when it comes down to it, he's a whiney little pee pants who's childishly jealous of his brother. Real badasses set their own agenda rather than defining themselves by hating someone else

Magnus - Probably my second favorite traitor Primarch, but he tries to warn the Emperor about Horus but instead blows up his webway project and nearly gets Holy Terra overrun by a horde of demons? Muppet.

Angron - This guy is liability, Horus would have been better off without him. Worst... Primarch... Ever...

Mortarion - Smelly.

Lorgar - Bible Basher.

Horus - Deamonhood is for WINNERS, punk!

Alpharius / Omegon - Their vagueness and contradictions appeal to many but he just seems annoying and wishy washy to me. Is he 2 guys or 1? Is he a traitor or not? And one of them got beaten up by Papa Smurf.

[Renegade]

Of the traitors I ways had sympathy for Fulgrim, and the novel was fantastic imho.
Fulgrim tried so hard, tried to be all that was perfect and it was this push for perfection that lead to his downfall, to which in itself is a great warning about striving for perfection.

Magnus was unfortunate, he fell for the Emperors lie and paid a huge price, Fulgrim and Horus are also victims of this.

Who knows what A/O really want or believe, the legion was made to be special ops and if not somehow renegade would be the ideal chapter.

[Thornblood]

Whilst I'm an Iron Warriors player, and love perturabo, there is only one contender for me. Fulgrim was really well written, I love the split where in the books atm alpharius is beginning to fall whilst omegon still seems to be a puppet of the cabal... But it has to be Dracula Batman Himself.

Konrad Kurze. The living embodiment of bat**** crazy. More pop culture references than a Seth McFarlane comedy. Inpredictable, paranoid, impulsive and thoughtful at the same time. Unpredictable. Just makes a great villain.

[YorkNecromancer]

I've got no sympathy for Peturabo. The Iron Warriors? Sure; they really got stiffed. All the grunt work, none of the thanks, and then their Primarch comes along and makes them murder a tenth of their brothers to - what? Teach them what a d!ck he is? F**k Peturabo. The Iron Warriors are very sympathetic, but their Primarch really isn't.

I don't know if I'd say any of the traitor Primarchs are really all that sympathetic except maybe Magnus The Red, but he looks too damned goofy to be credible.

Angron's an awesome antivillain, but when you break it down, even with the Butcher's Nails, he's kind of a petulant little tool. Like, the World Eaters start to use them to be closer to him and win his love, and he doesn't even notice or care. That is some self-obsession right there.

Alpharius, there's not really a personality there, so I don't know how interesting a character he is.

Fulgrim's pretty great; the whole OCD drive to perfection makes perfect sense.

Kurze is okay, but he's not as interesting as his chapter, who are basically The Worst; just the most completely horrible group of lunatics. If the Night Lords didn't have those dumba** bat-winged hats and a colour scheme matching the interior wall of Roxy's Disco circa 1973, I'd probably collect them.

Horus is pretty cool, but I think that's mostly the sculpt.

Mortarion's not really got a personality beyond 'don't like nothing and no-one and is basically sarcastic all the time'.

Who does that leave? Oh Lorgar. Yeah, he's pretty cool; I like the irony that he's basically responsible for the Heresy, and arguably the long-term failure of Chaos (because no Lorgar, no Imperial Creed to pull humanity away from the worship of Chaos). Plus the Word Bearers are the default 'We like daemons' Legion.

So, yeah, Lorgar. Either him or Fulgrim are probably the best.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Kurze.

[Ragnarork]

The Lion has always been my favourite traitor to the Emperor, closely followed by Guilliman and The Khan.
They have ended up being considered Loyalists because they did not side with Horus.
Look at Guilliman, he wanted to set up his own Empire.
The Khan only stayed loyal because the Alpha legion attacked them.
The Lion. Well, the Lion made sure half of his Legion rebelled, then gave the very weapons Perturabo needed to breach the Imperial palace walls and wanted to be Emperor and gave Perturabo the guns to curry his favour.
Best heretics, ever.

[Ben Overmyer]

Mortarion, just because pre-Heresy he was utterly ruthless.

[DaveTycho]

Alpharius / Omegon - Their vagueness and contradictions appeal to many but he just seems annoying and wishy washy to me. Is he 2 guys or 1? Is he a traitor or not? And one of them got beaten up by Papa Smurf.[/QUOTE]

The Index Astartes article that describes how Alpharius was beat up by Guilliman, that itself says the story could have been made up by the Alpha Legion. And that was before we found out Alpharius had a twin, or that other legionnaires impersonate Alpharius as well.

[Cactus]

My favorite is Magnus as well, however, the Black Library novels do a great job of adding some character and motivation behind most of the "villains."

I never thought I'd say that Konrad Curze is a well-rounded character, but the Night Lords novel really fleshed a lot of things out.

[Haighus]

Had Perturabo not turned, which again is entirely due to the Emperor being a dick to him...
The funny thing is that is was actually Horus who was being a dick to him mostly, he made it look like the Emperor's fault though. From the fluff in HH Book 3, the Iron Warriors stepped up in intensity and got given even more hellish and destructive warzones than they had already for the last few years of the GC. Horus basically managed to give almost an entire Legion PTSD and make them break, but framed the Emperor for it. Well played, Horus, well played.

Also, I don't buy the Cabal stuff. I feel like A/O have been totally played by the Cabal. Pretty much every other portrayal of divination in the Warhammer 30k/40k background shows many, many threads of the future, with hundreds of possible outcomes, yet here there were only two? I personally reckon that the Cabal wants to destroy humankind, and basically duped the Alpha Legion and showed them only what suited them for their goals. This is especially true when looking in hindsight and knowing that the Alpha Legion taking the path they did actually led to the outcome they were supposedly trying to avoid- what if the Alpha Legion had sided with the Emperor, and Horus had been defeated thoroughly? The Cabal intended that outcome IMO.

[Ruleslawyer]

Out of all the Traitor Primarchs, I have 3 that I like the idea of. Perturabo, Magnus and Konrad Curze. What appeals to me is the element of tragedy that all three have in various degrees. In many respects Curze seems the most tragic, beset by visions of doom, a belief in justice but also cursed by his desire for vengeance.

[Charon]

Also, I don't buy the Cabal stuff. I feel like A/O have been totally played by the Cabal. Pretty much every other portrayal of divination in the Warhammer 30k/40k background shows many, many threads of the future, with hundreds of possible outcomes, yet here there were only two? I personally reckon that the Cabal wants to destroy humankind, and basically duped the Alpha Legion and showed them only what suited them for their goals. This is especially true when looking in hindsight and knowing that the Alpha Legion taking the path they did actually led to the outcome they were supposedly trying to avoid- what if the Alpha Legion had sided with the Emperor, and Horus had been defeated thoroughly? The Cabal intended that outcome IMO.

Ties in with how Chaos works.
Yes, the cabal wants to eradicate the human race. Because they want to destroy Chaos. Chaos and humans are tied closely. Chaos was not a big problem before the rise of mankind. They did exist and they had entire races to do their bidding but that was rather a minor annoyance in the face of Eldar/Necrontyr/Old One/Enslaver power.
Basically the emperor was on the same road and also could have succeeded in theory with his mission of removing all belief systems from mankind. But as the priest of the last church on earth told him "People will always believe".

Yes there are more fututes than two. But as the Eldar see it, they eliminate the most unlikely. And in this case the draw between the Emperor and Horus was highly unlikely. This was actually the only scenario in which Chaos did actually win and could exist further. In both other cases the Choas gods would have starved slowly and eventually get back to their former state of beeing powerful but irrelevant.

[Path Walker]

Shocked at people discounting Angron.

He was a gladiator, he fought for his freedom with his brothers and sisters and was snatched away at the last minute, watched his soldiers die while he lived. The Emperor ****ed him over more than any of the others. He was damaged and broken by the Nails, the Emperor left them in because he was the butcher the Emperor needed, all the Primarchs were used, tools to be discarded, but none more so than Angron, only he and Kurze saw the big E for what he was before the Heresy, they saw that the Primarchs were to be thrown to one side when they were no longer useful. The rest only came to that conclusion after he left and set up the Council of Terra but Angron had seen how little his Father cared for lesser beings from the first moment he met him, he was truly alone from the start.

[Kirsten]

yeah I like Angron, he never had a chance

[Path Walker]

Others fell from vanity, Perterabo, Horus, Fulgrim, or necessity, Magnus, Alpharius or out of faith for Lorgar.

Angron didn't fall, he was never loyal, he'd hated the Emperor from day one, and thought Horus's rebellion would give him a chance for rebellion, not realising that Horus was using him as much as the Emp did.

[grimmas]

Cruze for me he's got the whole Coriolanus thing going on. A Soldier ordered to become the Evil the Imperium needed and scorned when they decided they didn't need him anymore. Excellent stuff.

And he can live up to his own ideals

"Death is nothing compared to vindication"

[Kirsten]

well not really ordered, he took it upon himself to do it, but he was tacitly allowed to carry on.

[grimmas]

Well he claimed he was told to do it by the (False) Emperor. Good coice by the Big E though horses for courses and all that.

[Kirsten]

he operates that way before meeting the emperor though. in the free short story Curze claims that what he did was the only way to fix his planet, and Talos criticises him pointing out he never actually tried any other way than fear and murder.

[CoffeeGrunt]

he operates that way before meeting the emperor though. in the free short story Curze claims that what he did was the only way to fix his planet, and Talos criticises him pointing out he never actually tried any other way than fear and murder.

Yeah, Konrad was Grimdark Space Batman long before the Emperor ever lightened his doorstep.

Angron's cool, I love Kharn's perspective on him. He's the only Primarch that still lives and failed. The other 17 conquered a world, or even Empires of worlds. Angron was the leader of a worthless band of mindless savages. If the Emperor had committed the War Hounds to saving them, he'd have traded a functioning, useful society to the Imperial war machine for a pack of brain-damaged gladiators destined to crumble as their minds were corroded by the Butcher's Nails. There was no stable society, no great empire to build from Angron's forces, and so the Emperor saved only him and let his fellows die.

If Angron had been taken by a noble family, like many of the others, things would've been very different. Sadly, his fate was to always be beholden to a master. First, the gladiator slavers. Then, the Emperor, another tyrant to bloody his blade in the name of. Then Horus, then Khorne and Abaddon. As Kharn says, they could have forged a great Legion in the World Eaters rather than a bloodthirsty rabble, if only their Primarch wasn't such a broken, tortured mess.

It's sad that he's never had the chance to fight for his own cause. Now he's devolved into a Daemon of pure bloodthirsty rage, nothing human left, just a puppet of Khorne.

[grimmas]

Yep he did, made him the natural choice for what the Emperor needed doing though. Also the it's worth noting that the VIII were also like it before Curzes arrival (they did get better at it once he turned up though). The Emperor knew what he was doing.

[Path Walker]

Curze knew what he had to become to save his world, his instincts were to kill and torture from the moment he landed, once he became aware, he was aware he needed to make people fear him, it was built in to him, the same way Guilliman had a knack for being a statesman or Sanguinius was inspiring and beautiful. It's becoming increasingly obvious that The Emperor had a plan for each of his sons, a role they were destined to play, he made Konrad a monster because he needed one, Angron was a brute because the Great Crusade needed brutes as well as generals.

Those two were broken and pitiful because The Emperor needed them to be, he didn't care about the damage that would do to them because the ends always justify the means to someone like the Emp.

[Shadoestar]

Im a fan of Magnus...he tries to help his father and warn him...and gets in trouble for it and has the entire Legion of Russ sent to bring him to task...I don't think he ever wanted to submit and goto the proverbial dark side. He was a father looking at the only option for the survival of his children.

[Captain Bubonicus]

I like to think of Mortarion as Grumpy Cat with a scythe...

Off to do some Photoshop.

[Oden_Criteria]

Lorgar is my personal preference... he reminds me of me :)