Why Does He Stay With Her?

[YorkNecromancer]

Why Does He Stay With Her?

Or

It’s Okay Baby, Khorne Loves You Really…


Introduction: The Warp Will Protect Me Like A Shield Of Steel!

Everyone loves the idea of being a bad@ss; that, given the right training and the right circumstances, we could – if only for a day – be powerful. So much of our art and culture is dedicated to allowing us the vicarious thrill of power, from superhero comics to Disney princess films, all of it allowing us imagined lives of dominion over a world that’s – frankly – pretty bloody terrifying a lot of the time. Wargaming is no different.

However, pure power fantasies don’t always make for compelling stories or intriguing narratives. This is something I looked at in my very first ‘proper’ article (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/40k-deep-thought-chaos-will-never-win.html), where I discussed my perspective on what I perceive as the limitations that the followers of Chaos tend to suffer from.

In the comments, loyal followers of Chaos began telling me that while I may have raised some interesting points, I was – in the final analysis – wrong. Things that seemed obvious to a non-Chaos player like me, that Chaos’ soldiers would run out of bullets, batteries, food and water, oxygen, fresh armour plating, all the logistical details that allow an army to function… To the followers of Chaos, well, I was being shortsighted.

“You’re forgetting the power of The Warp,” I was told, “and you can’t do that. They don’t need things in the same way as the other factions. Chaos provides.”

Again and again, this was sentiment was repeated in different words and different ways, repeated again and again, like a holy catechism.

Chaos provides.

Well, this article is intended as something of a riposte to that notion, specifically looking at how that belief actually devalues one of the key things that makes the Chaos faction so interesting in the first place, making them a less interesting, and arguably, a less bad@ss faction. That those limitations are actually what makes them awesome in the first place, and a key reason the player base should embrace them.

His Scythe Hasn’t Rusted Because The Warp

In my first article, I used the example of Typhus and his Manreaper to demonstrate why Chaos has an issue with supplies and equipment:


Typhus’ Manreaper has become Unwieldy since the Horus Heresy… [That’s because Typhus is] living in conditions which are less than perfect for the correct maintenance of complex electronic equipment.

Seriously, Nurgle’s soldiers are held together by rust and duct tape. I’m amazed Manreaper only has Unwieldy, instead of a rule that says it bends like foil the first time he hits someone with it.

In the comments section, I was told (numerous times) that The Warp keeps him Typhus going. That it keeps him alive and sustained (all true), and so therefore, it should logically (!) do the same to his weapon; that it mades no sense for his scythe to be Unwieldy because Chaos Provides.

And this argument was made numerous times, about almost everything I had argued that Chaos’ followers would lack access to. No bullets? Well, Chaos provides, so now their gun shoots lightning. No food? Well, Chaos provides, so now their body survives by eating metal. No batteries? Well, Chaos provides, so now your marines poop lightning.

No matter how logical the imposition, how irksome the lack of materiel, how abominable the scarcity of resources, Chaos provides, because evidently, to some players, Chaos isn’t a terrifying primal force of destruction fuelled by the blood of billions, but an overprotective mummy with nothing better to do than swaddle her babies and give them everything they could ever need.

https://static.mumsnet.com/images/logo/mn-logo.svg
Pictured: Khorne, apparently.

Yes, arguably, Chaos does provide. Sometimes.

But by its nature, you cannot rely upon that aid; no general can reliably factor that aid into their plans. The clue, of course, is in the faction’s name: Chaos. If we are to judge the value of a thing, we do so based on its actions, not its words. And looking at the way Chaos behaves, I don’t think it treats its followers in the same way as a caring parent… Though I do believe it very neatly fits the profile of another type of intimate relationship.

The Most Dangerous Words In The English Language

There are lots of words in English that are dangerous on a personal level. Ignoring more extreme words most of us will never use (For example “Launch the nukes!”) there are many phrases that can lead to terrible harm. Examples include “Just one more won’t hurt”, “Oh, no, my pet Rottweiler’s great with children”, and of course “Go ahead, do it! You ain’t got the guts to shoot me!”

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8Xjr2hnOHiM/maxresdefault.jpg
Oh he does. He absolutely does.

But the most dangerous words in the English language are more subtle than that. They’re not an encouragement to risk, nor a monstrous threat, nor anything else obviously danger… And that is, of course, why they’re so deadly. They’re narcotic, and like any drug, they don’t seem bad at first. They might even make you happy for a time.

So what are they, these most dangerous words in the English language?

“I love you, but…”

Now, on first glance, they look like nothing, don’t they? Perhaps even lovely. After all, we all want to be loved. Well, all of us except the real narcissists, but even then, we may still want to belong. Love is an object of the most fervent desire for almost everyone on Earth; to know that we are worth something, that our lives have value. That we are worthy of being loved.

That we existed, and that existence mattered.

“I love you, but…”

Love is something people just get ridiculous about. As a culture, we attribute it mystical powers – Doctor Who saves the world with it every other week; Jean-Luc Picard uses it as justification for the human race’s existence; Matthew McConaghy escapes a black hole with it; John Lennon tells us it’s all we need… On and on and on, giving it magical powers it doesn’t remotely have, all because it just feels so good.

“I love you, but…”

See how nice that sounds? They love you. They must. After all, they’ve just said so! It’s obvious isn’t it? How could these words be dangerous? How could any admission of devotion lead us to harm?

“I love you, but…”

It’s in the qualifier. ‘Love’ is unconditional. By its very nature, it represents a lack of choice. If I love you, I can’t just switch it off. Love isn’t like a tap. Once you love something, that’s just it. Anyone who adds a ‘but’ to that sentence, well… That’s a qualifier, isn’t it? That’s a condition.

“I love you, but you talk too much.”
“I love you, but you could do with losing some weight.”
“I love you, but I don’t like it when you spend so much time with your friends.”

http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/razor-blade-apple.jpg
Pictured: a none-too-subtle metaphor.

That “but” poisons the whole phrase, because it neatly proves that whoever is saying it? They don’t love you at all. They might like you, but they don’t love you. They might love what you can do for them (or perhaps to them), but they don’t love you. That’s because love is uncontrollable; it is accepting of flaws, because it has no choice. Love is tolerant of mistakes, because it can’t do otherwise. To love someone, truly love them, is to be unable to let anything else in the way.

Maybe they did love you once, but the moment you hear that “but…” it’s a sign: it’s over. Whatever feelings they had for you are gone, and now they’re using your feelings to their advantage.

Because that “but” always leads to a request. Cut your hair. Change your clothes. Stop hanging out with your friends.

Change yourself into what I want you to be.

Because I’m the one who’s important.

Now, hold onto these ideas, because we’re going to return to them. We just have to discuss magick first.

On Shells

There’s an interesting thing in the mythology of GW’s interpretation of the Chaos gods; famously, each originally began as a more positive force in the universe. For example, Tzeentch was the god of hope, Khorne the god of bravery and determination, and so on. They all began somewhere more positive than they are now. This is not a unique idea. In fact, it is a very old one indeed.

Hermeticism is an eclectic religious tradition which basically involves being a wizard and is the source of all those creepy Goetic demonic names like Baal and Belial (well, original Abrahamic tribal sources nothwithstanding). It includes a great many ideas lifted wholesale from something called Kabbalah. This phonemically delightful word is the name for a specifically Jewish tradition of mysticism, rooted and based in maths and words. It’s the place we get the idea of the Golem from, as well as the root of ideas like the fact spells have to be spoken, that they use ‘magic words’.

All very interesting, but how does that relate to anything?

Shells.

Shells is how.

You see, Kabbalism uses what I’ve always thought is a beautiful metaphor to describe the world and the way everything connects to everything else. It’s called the Tree of Life, and in essence it’s a kind of map of reality.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Tree_of_life_bahir_Hebrew.svg
So pretty…

There are ten points on the tree (the big circles above) called sephiroth (and no, they’re not the villain of ‘Final Fantasy VII’). Each has a number and a name, and those numbers and names are linked. For example, the top, Kether (meaning ‘crown’), is numbered 1. It represents God, the self, the purest form of ego… hence why it’s number 1. Two is Chokmah, and represents ‘fatherly’ traits, such as leadership, authority… All those ideas associated with fatherhood. Its number is 2, because the shape you draw between two points looks like…

http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/tuscansausage.jpg
Pic unrelated.

Well.

Three is Binah, and represents ‘motherly’ traits, such as caring, protectiveness, and so on. Its number is three, because that draws a triangle, which (if you angle the point so it’s pointing down) looks just like…

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpU48N1IQAEQDdl.jpg
Pic unrelated.

I’m sure you get the point.

Now, this is all a massive oversimplification of a highly complex system of thinking (and if you want to know more, I can't recommend you read Alan Moore's magnum opus 'Promethea' (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Promethea-Book-1-Mick-Gray/dp/1563896672) enough. Seriously, it's one of the most interesting books ever written; go get a copy now!) but I hope it gets the key point across, namely that the tree of life is entirely metaphorical, as well as deeply symbolic. The points of the sephiroth represent parts of everything, and everyone, because everyone has a masculine side, a feminine side, the purest part of themselves, as well as the other ideas I’ve not listed (which include a sense of justice, a sense of beauty, and so on).

The thing is, just like Spiderman has Venom, the Emperor has Horus, and Amazon.com has basic human decency, the tree of life has a tree of death; as you might imagine, it’s bad news. It’s an inverted tree of life, with the sephiroth replaced by their deathly opposites, called ‘qlippoth’.

Now qlippoth doesn’t mean ‘demon’ or ‘devil’ or ‘Justine Bieber’ – you know, creatures of pure evil – like you might at first think. It actually means ‘shells’. Specifically, empty shells. That’s because Kabbalism doesn’t look at evil as a specific act; you can’t ‘be’ evil… Because there’s no such thing: evil is an absence.

In the dark ages, there was a mythical substance called ‘frigoric’; it was supposed to be like coal, only it gave off cold rather than heat. Certain alchemists argued this was where cold weather came from, but the idea is laughable now. We all know that cold is simply the absence of heat. In the same way, Kabbalism argues evil isn’t a thing that exists in and of itself; it’s simply an absence of goodness. Evil acts are acts committed without humanity. Those who do them don’t do them because they’re evil; they do them because the goodness isn’t there. Now, you may or may not disagree with that, but the point it that that’s why a the tree of death is made of qlippoth: because it’s all that’s left over once the goodness has gone are hollow shells.

Allow me to illustrate.

Imagine a man called Dave. Dave loves Stacy, but Stacy isn’t interested. Dave’s love compels him to try his best to win Stacy – buying her gifts, helping her out, listening to her problems… But Stacy’s just not interested. So she turns to him, and speaks her truth: ‘You’re a good man, but I don’t love you and I never will’. And it’s true, she won’t.

Now, sephirothic Dave, filled with goodness, listens, and hears. And because his love for Stacy is true, he says to himself ‘This might mean I spend the rest of my life unhappy… But I’d do that for her, because I love her… Which means her happiness is more important to me than my own.’ So he thanks Stacy for her honesty, wishes her well in her search for love, and leaves her forever… Hopefully to look for someone who will love him back. Maybe they stay friends, maybe they don’t; it’s irrelevant, because Stacy is happy. Dave’s love for her made her happy. Hopefully Dave is happier too, because he’s made a clean break and can start looking for the right person for him – the one who will love him back.

Qlippothic Dave, though? He hears her truth… But ignores it. See, he doesn’t actually love her; he just loves the way she makes him feel. He listens only to his own feelings, this selfish need for her. He judges her needs as less important than his own, and so he carries trying to win her over. When she keeps rejecting him, he gets angry – his feelings keep being hurt: why doesn’t she care about his feelings? He’s been so good to her!

He can’t see that he is responsible for his own misery, because his compassion is missing. If he could only see that his constant attention was making her first annoyed, then frustrated and finally terrified, that every attempt to win her actually makes her hate him more, then he would see that there was not even the possibility of happiness there for either of them. But he can’t; his empathy is missing. He can’t see her feelings, only his. So he keeps listening to his desires, following her around, stalking her, making her life a scared, wretched misery… And all in the name of ‘love’.

So the qlippoth of love? Is stalking. Love itself is neither good nor evil. It requires compassion and empathy to be good, or it’s simply a hollow desire that can easily form the basis of some truly psychopathic behaviour.

And as it is with the qlippoth, so it is with the Ruinous Powers.

They may have once been gods of hope and honour and a great many things besides, but those days are long over. The Ruinous Powers are exactly that, and can never be anything else. Not any more.

Of course, that doesn’t stop Chaos’ worshippers lying to themselves. Denial is, after all, the most predictable of all human responses.

But He Loves Me!

Chaos is generous. It gives its followers gifts, powers, mutations, boons… On and on and on. But the thing is, Chaos doesn’t follow rules about how and why it does this. Unless it does. And then changes its mind. The one thing you can rely on when it comes to Chaos, is that Chaos? Is chaotic. It’s unpredictable. There is nothing to say that one day, it won’t just look at Abaddon and go ‘You’re a chaos spawn now and forever because banana-flavoured monkey skirts!’

By nature, Chaos cannot be controlled, channelled, funnelled or manipulated. So the idea that Chaos provides is a flawed one. Because it does… But it takes away too. And without rhyme or reason. Even if you’re part of a Chaos Legion, even if you’ve been working up the ranks over the millennia of The Long War, you can never be safe, because the parts of the Chaos gods that made them worthy of worship… They’re just not there any more. Khorne doesn’t care if you die or your opponent does, so long as someone gets got. Tzeentch doesn’t care if it’s plans are confounded, as long as it’s the one doing the confounding, and maybe not even then.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/47fb4c8b587332d4e14739459b72ce26/tumblr_nn8euxYjtN1te1zvoo1_500.gif
Tzeentch: for when the only thing missing from your plan is bird seed.

As we established, the Chaos gods are all, ultimately, shells of what they once were, their most important parts missing. And you remember how we discussed that anyone who says ‘I love you, but…’ doesn’t love you at all?

Well. A practical example of that.

Sharon was a woman who grew up quite an unhappy little girl; looked over and mistreated, she’d been through various relationships with various men, never quite enjoying an emotional connection of any sort. She liked them well enough, but really none of them ever did it for her.

Then she met Steve.

And Steve was great. Charismatic, charming, intelligent, dynamite in bed… He was everything she’d never known before. He made her laugh, he made her smile, he made her feel safe. He was a great, great guy. So when he voiced the fact he didn’t really like the way her mother treated her, taking advantage of Sharon’s need to feel loved by making her do lots of little favours she hated, well, it was only right she listened. After all, her mum was a pain. She’d been doing favours for her for years without thanks or praise, and Steve was only repeating things to her she’d already said.

When Steve pointed out that her Dad was the same, always getting her to store his ridiculous collections of plastic tat at her house despite having room at his, well, he was just telling her what she’d told him. He was only a mirror to her own feelings. Steve even offered to talk to her parents about it when she couldn’t, and he did too. He was great, really positive with them – not difficult for a man as charming as him – and within a month or so, the house was clear and Sharon didn’t have to do any more of those annoying little favours.

About a month later, when Steve pointed out how unhappy her friends were making her, well, he was only mirroring her own thoughts again. Because they were all so passive aggressive, weren’t they? Especially bloody Leona. God, the way that woman talked behind her back, it was like being back at school. Steve was right, completely right, and anyway, he was all she needed, wasn’t he? Not a bunch of annoying grown-up girls who only ever wanted to go out and drink Prosecco, pretending to be better than they were as they moaned about how…

It was no great difficulty to stop replying to their texts. And it was no great loss when the texts stopped coming. And slowly, Steve came to be Sharon’s entire world; her balm against loneliness, her shield against the world.

And he cried so hard after the first time he hit her. It wasn’t his fault; he’d had a hard day at work, and it wasn’t like he was an abusive partner, not really. He didn’t get drunk and mistreat her or call her names, he didn’t intimidate her into leaving. Yes, he might have said he didn’t know what he’d do without her – may have threatened suicide if she left – but that was only because of his deep love for her. That was just how important she was to him: she was his everything. How could she turn her back on him?

That’s what she told herself the next time he hit her. And the time after that. Every time was the last, every time. And he wasn’t lying, either. He meant it every time. Every single time. Every time, it tore him apart inside, and the next day would be flowers and gifts and meals out and apologies…

Until there weren’t.

After two years, even the apologies had stopped. And, bruised and broken (though not always physically), Sharon began to wonder if she’d made a mistake. That she loved him was undeniable… It hadn’t been like when they got together in so long, but she still remembered how it had been at the start. And it wasn’t like she had anywhere else to go. She hadn’t spoken to her parents in over two years, hadn’t seen another soul in nearly as long. And it wasn’t like Steve was going to kill her, was it?

You could change Steve’s name to Emma if you like. Or Sharon’s name to Brad. Or both. Patterns of abuse are frighteningly similar across genders; every human is capable of hurting another. I simply framed the story this way because Sharon was a really good friend of mine and I’m just telling her story the way it was told to me. (Names changed to protect her, obviously).

More importantly – and relevant to this article - you could also change Steve’s name to Khorne, or Tzeentch or any of their kin if you like. Then, you could change Sharon to Angron, or Mortarion or a hundred other named characters.

When they’re written well, the Ruinous Powers come to you as a friend. Not as slavering, gibbering, obvious evil, but as the charming, wonderful, misunderstood loves of your life. As the part of you that was missing until right now. They’re seductive; they call out to your insecurities… Even Khorne, whose warriors all began as probably the most insecure of all. They come to you and they’re the answer to a question you didn’t know you’d spent your whole life asking. Whatever you need, they bring it to you… It and everything else. The power to save the Imperium with mighty magicks? Not a problem, Magnus. The glorious death your father cheated you of when you lead the slave revolt and your sisters and brothers died without you? Here you go, Angron. The chance to demonstrate your superiority to the father who never loved you?

Sure thing, Horus. We can do that for you.

And the Powers smile and tell you they love you, that you’re the only one for them, all while telling every one of the people around you the exact same thing. They tell you they’ll never hurt you, that you are Chosen, that you are their Champion, that if you follow their rules, that if you’re strong and brave and never let them down, the universe and everything in it will be yours.

So it’s not their fault when they hit you. You must have done something to earn that. It’s not their fault when the next Black Crusade fails, or when your human warriors are swallowed by a campaign where you were promised daemonic support that never materialised.

It must be something you did.

Chaos isn't a caring mother, or a protective father. It doesn't give you its gifts because it cares for you, or wants to see you succeed or grow. It's an abusive spouse, constantly undermining whatever there is left of its followers and replacing that with itself, hollowing them out until they're nothing but a brainwashed slave, slathering for violence or drugs or to spread disease or make pretty pretty spells. And all the while, as this process of erosion goes on, the worshipper justifies it to themselves - it's what I want. It must be, or else why am I allowing it? I must want this. Denial is the most powerful emotion that an abuser can take advantage - that simple refusal to see things as they are, because... because... because... Always a different because, and it's never true, but it's close enough to the truth that the person can allow themselves to believe it. And all the while, that sense of self, that self-esteem and happiness, all slowly gets worn away and replaced by a spiritual parasite, incapable of anything except further abuse.

To be a Chaos worshipper is to live a life of constant, horrifying abuse. Even if you're at the top of things, you're still less than the god which demands your soul.

On Agency.

See, Chaos isn’t anyone’s friend. It’s not a superpower or a fuel. It’s not the bullets in its worshippers’ guns and it’s not a Plot Device that wallpapers over the faction’s deficiencies.

Well…

Apart from when it is, I suppose… And the fact that some writers use it as that? I think that’s a problem.

See, 40K, at its best, is all about Forging A Narrative. Whether that’s on the tabletop or in a book or wherever, there have to be real odds. In Greek tragedy, they don’t call the hero a hero, because they understood the hero doesn’t have to be heroic. The word they use is ‘protagonist’. It means ‘the one who struggles’, because stories are all about struggle. They’re about things going wrong, and a character trying to put them right, no matter the cost.

A key part of that is that they should have some agency against the ‘antagonist’, the thing they struggle against. If there’s no chance they can win, then the story becomes dull… And likewise, if there’s no chance they can lose, the story becomes dull too. Drama comes from the possibility of success or failure – that mid-stage where we literally have no idea what’s going to happen.

Consider the classic problem of DC’s Superman. He’s so absurdly tough, so ridiculously unkillable, that it’s borderline impossible to get an audience fired up about him. No-one’s cared about Superman since the 1940s. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwDbSYicM) All his best writers acknowledge this; how does he meaningfully struggle against anything? They have to work to put him into situations where he’s either struggling against things he can’t solve with his powers (like dating) or struggling against problems that can never be solved (like famine or human cruelty) or struggling against godlike villains (like General Zod or Darkseid). When they have him against Batman, Batman is the default hero because Superman so obviously wipes the floor with him; the end of ‘The Dark Knight Returns’ is amazing specifically because SPOILER Batman wins. Superman is dull because there are no stakes in any of his stories; he’s not a bad@ss. He’s a flying brick.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--gBo0zbKQ--/18ffrwsk2qfxgjpg.jpg
He even thinks in melodrama.

Now compare him to Captain America. In so many ways, they’re fundamentally the same guy: all-American, decent and good. They both want to protect and serve the world in the best of all possible ways. They both hate bullies, care deeply, and are slightly nebbish is private. But Cap is so much more awesome because he’s so much more vulnerable. Oh, he’s faster, tougher, stronger… But he’s still got to run from an airstrike. The stakes are higher because he has to struggle in human, meaningful ways that Superman doesn’t.

‘Chaos provides’ turns Chaos from Captain America into Superman and makes them ten times more dull as a result. It’s narratively shortsighted. Say Abaddon leads a Black Crusade, fights all the way to Pluto, then suddenly BAM! Khorne manifests on Earth for no reason at all and kills everything while Abaddon is forced to watch… See, unless the story is about how Abaddon will always be Chaos’ useless little punk, The Lord and Master Of All Human Failure, then he just got cheated. He didn’t do anything to win. In his own story, he just sat there and let Chaos do the heavy lifting. He becomes completely secondary.

In order for the story to be interesting, he has to have agency, which is a posh way of saying ‘he has to be capable of affecting the story outcome himself, and be the one who does so’.

If Chaos is going to be the main character of its story, if it’s going to be the protagonist, then it needs to be able to fail., because that possibility of failure is what drives our excitement. Chaos’ forces need to have unique flaws – things that its followers have to struggle against. And their unique flaw is their lack of everything. It’s what makes their defiance so exciting. They have to be worried about getting new bullets, refuelling, resupply, all in a way the Imperium or the Craftworlds or the Tau Empire does not, because in a very real way, that’s their story. That’s their struggle. The key trait of the Chaos Worshipper is refusal to submit. Taking that away, making it so they don’t need to fight to keep going? It turns them into evil Superman… Great if they’re the villain. But otherwise? It just makes them dull. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue)

A Chaos Worshipper, be they Cultist, Chosen or Champion, is, at their heart, a person utterly alone. They’ve fallen in love with something that does not love them back… Something that is incapable of loving them back; the Ruinous Powers’ qlippothic natures mean that they are utterly incapable of caring; the part of them that could is long gone. They can no more care for their followers than a person without lungs can breathe. So the Chaos worshipper’s very source of what power they have left mistreats them, lies to them, manipulates them, abandons them at exactly the worst possible moment, hurts them… And they’re the ones who have to always come crawling back, because Chaos is all they’ve got now. They left all their support networks behind and can never go back. Never.

And that’s awesome, because it makes for great stories. From the outside, Chaos is a monolithic, terrifying mass of lunatic killers and monsters. From the inside? It’s basically the same thing, only every single one of those killers and monsters is hanging on to the edge of a deep, black abyss by their fingertips.

So saying ‘Chaos provides’ is actually incredibly demeaning. It’s short-changing the faction, saying ‘We don’t need to put any effort in, because no matter how badly we foul the bed, mummy Chaos will come along and wipe our little bum-bums’. It’s to deny those amazing Chaos characters their story: that they struggle ten times harder than any Imperial, because their friends, followers, even their god… The whole entire universe is against them on a literal, personal level.

And they’re still fighting.

That, my friends, is what makes a great protagonist, and it’s why Chaos players shouldn’t get angry about their faction’s struggles. It’s why they should embrace them. Despite all appearances to the contrary, no-one else has to fight as hard.

[Kirsten]

I always have that issue with Superman. any other super hero, you know they will win, you just don't know how. with Superman, it is is how can he not?

I love the fact that chaos are short on stuff. The Night Lords trilogy has them constantly struggling with supply issues, they don't have enough servitors for all the crew stations on ship, they can't fire all the weapons on their thunderhawk. the most badass terrifying villains in the universe go scavenging for stuff the imperium wastes billions of, and I think it is fantastic.

chaos might make their guns shoot lightning, but then the next day they might make them shoot defrosting peas, because it is funny.

I always find it funny when people complain about chaos marines not having 'and they shall know no fear' too, despite the fact part of the very reason they are chaos marines is because they have thrown off the conditioning. why do they fall back when loyalists don't? because loyalists are committed to dying heroically, and traitors are committed to not dying at all. they see a few of their comrades shot down and they think screw that, I am a thousand years old, I am not hanging around here for somebody else's plan, I will go do what I want to do.

[YorkNecromancer]

Exactly. Why don't Chaos Marines have ATSKNF?

What do you think the Cultists are for? if you're a Chaos Marine and you've encountered a problem you can't solve, the issue isn't the problem - it's that you've not thrown enough Cultists at it. Warboss? Cultists. Dreadnought? Cultists. Imperator Titan? FEED IT CULTISTS UNTIL ITS GEARS ARE GUNKED UP WITH THEIR BLOOD.

Cultists are like Chaos Marine duct tape and WD40 combined.

[Kirsten]

yeah, loyalist fighting dreadnought, 'I shall destroy it or die trying for the emperor!' chaos space marine, 'that looks like way too much hassle...' or alternatively, 'I hate those loyalists! but I haven't finished series three of orange is the new black yet, and, this warlord dude is only offering some marshmallows for taking part in his grand plan...'

[Fueldrop]

When I play I tend to suggest a story for the game.

When versing chaos marines I generally suggest that the objectives are supply crates. Against my cultist-heavy buddy, I tend to suggest that at least one of the crates they're fighting so hard to acquire is Civilian-Issue Toilet Paper. 'Cos if you're stuck in the eye of terror I'm willing to bet you'll kill for a good roll of toilet paper.

[YorkNecromancer]

Best narrative ever.

[Fueldrop]

Best narrative ever.

Actually, that would have to go to the IG regiment who tangled with my Dark Eldar over a collection of Sisters of Battle porn mags. Mainly because the dice rolls and objective cards all lined up to make it work.

[Charon]

Why do you always insist that Chaos is random?
Chaos is just a name. And SOME actions SEEM random to mortals. But they are not. They are not more random than a DE raid capturing a single prisoner who is not even of any status and disappear again.


I love the fact that chaos are short on stuff. The Night Lords trilogy has them constantly struggling with supply issues, they don't have enough servitors for all the crew stations on ship, they can't fire all the weapons on their thunderhawk. the most badass terrifying villains in the universe go scavenging for stuff the imperium wastes billions of, and I think it is fantastic.

They do not serve Chaos. It is fun that you use the Nightlords because they do not worship chaos. Why not use the Corsairs as reference? They have plenty... but I know... it destroys the argument.
But THEY actually serve Chaos.
Also despite their shortcomings in supply, a few of them are a lethal thread to full loyalist squads. They also still use their "Legion tactics" und are outnumbered and outgunned most of the time but still survive and kill.



chaos might make their guns shoot lightning, but then the next day they might make them shoot defrosting peas, because it is funny.

Chaos is not random.


I always find it funny when people complain about chaos marines not having 'and they shall know no fear' too, despite the fact part of the very reason they are chaos marines is because they have thrown off the conditioning. why do they fall back when loyalists don't? because loyalists are committed to dying heroically, and traitors are committed to not dying at all.

And because the traitors are committed to not die at all they happily challenge a Wraithlord in heroic hand to hand combat... because... of reasons.


What do you think the Cultists are for? if you're a Chaos Marine and you've encountered a problem you can't solve, the issue isn't the problem - it's that you've not thrown enough Cultists at it.

Cultists are usually not bound to CSM at all. They do not "throw" cultists at anyone because they do not have some. They get "their" cultists if they happen to raid a planet with an active cult on it or provide a cult beforehand (mostly Alpha Legion and Word Bearers) but they do not fly them around in space on their ships.
Cultists are actually more related to Daemons than to CSM.

[Mr Mystery]

Except for the various and sundry Cultists known to travel around with the Traitor Legions, just like they did during the Crusade and Heresy.....

Storm of Iron demonstrates that, and it's relatively rare in the 40k fiction that it's just CSM you're up against.

If anything, it's the poor old Cultists that are the enablers of the long war. Not only do they provide a source of expendable bodies, but sheer numbers. And if it's a Cult on a planet about to be invaded, they do most of the sabotage, and massively help with the destabilisation of the established power base.

If you ask me, it's the Cultists that are the biggest threat to the Imperium. CSM are rare enough to avoid attention they don't want, but at the price of no longer being able to fight in the way the Legions or even a Chapters once did - they just don't have the numbers or the organisation, not anymore.

And Chaos does indeed mean Chaos. It's a lack of order. Within the Imperium, there are strict hierarchies. There has to be. That's the hallmark of an ordered society. Lots of little cogs turning like billy-o, making the greater machine do its thing. CSM have worries Loyalists don't. If you're a loyalist, the ranks are the ranks. Wanna be a sarge? Excel on the battlefield, and get promoted. So on and so forth. If Chaos Dave reckons he can do a better job than Aspiring Champion Sue - IT'S MURDER O'CLOCK, once you've spent time undermining them and shoring up your own support, and being as sure as you can be that Chaos Kev, Baz, Bob and Cilla aren't just supporting you for their own ends....

[daboarder]

its funny because even the mathematical concept of chaos is not random

In fact its the inherent and implacable OPPOSITE, in that it defines predetermination.

But you know, I dont expect that level of knowledge round here

edit: On another note Charon, some chaos warbands absolutely carry around their own hordes of cultists, wordbearers and alpha legion being the most obvious, but theres also the crimson slaughter and like the black legion of iron warriors


If you ask me, it's the Cultists that are the biggest threat to the Imperium. CSM are rare enough to avoid attention they don't want, but at the price of no longer being able to fight in the way the Legions or even a Chapters once did - they just don't have the numbers or the organisation, not anymore.

Have you actually ever READ anything describing the chaos space marines?

Because theres myriad of books and literature that point out just how bloody wrong that is

[Charon]

edit: On another note Charon, some chaos warbands absolutely carry around their own hordes of cultists, wordbearers and alpha legion being the most obvious, but theres also the crimson slaughter and like the black legion of iron warriors

That is "Traitor guard" in most cases. Not the typical coal miner turned devout follower of Khorne.
We see 3 groups most of the time: Cultists (that is civillians), Traitors (that is PDF, former guard, merchenaries,..) and Slaves ("Chapter servs", ex-navy, workforce,...).
They all serve Chaos in one way or another but they are different. Sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

Take Gaunts Ghosts as an example.
The Bloodpact. Cultists or trained Soliders? Would you pick an IA army list to portrait them or CSM Cultists?
Sons of Sec? Then you have the people of Ferrozoica.

[daboarder]

read the owrd bearer books or even the black legion background, it makes specific mention to hordes ove cultists serving under the direction of both legions, and being transported around the place by them

[Fueldrop]

While the actions of chaos are actually fairly simple in 3/4 cases, the chaos gods work on a scale and timetable that is nearly incomprehensible to us at a glance.

For example: Khorne doesn't have complex motivations or devious methods. He wants stuff to die in battle. Giving his followers weapons, ammunition, sustainance... it's all means to the end of getting them onto battlefield after battlefield to keep killing until they die. If they're really good at it, they might get resurrected so they can go out and kill more. If not... Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.

Tzeentch is the one that bucks the trend... kinda. His actions are probably the most "Random" from the perspective of an observer. In fact everything he does forwards his plans. Even if it's directly counterproductive to the thing he last did, it's just because he's furthering a different scheme at the cost of the first one.

[grimmas]

In the context of GW, Chaos stands for change though what ever reason unending and often violent change, order stands for permanence and lack of change (look how the imperium views innovation). I know they "borrowed" this from elsewhere but it still the same. It very much not good vs evil.

Worshiping chaos is very much an abusive relationship, it makes people become pawns in another's games and traps (either physically or mentally) them by making them reliant on that relationship. Even the ultimate reward from chaos is merely to become a more powerful slave.

[Kirsten]

Why do you always insist that Chaos is random?
Chaos is just a name. And SOME actions SEEM random to mortals. But they are not. They are not more random than a DE raid capturing a single prisoner who is not even of any status and disappear again.


They do not serve Chaos. It is fun that you use the Nightlords because they do not worship chaos. Why not use the Corsairs as reference? They have plenty... but I know... it destroys the argument.
But THEY actually serve Chaos.
Also despite their shortcomings in supply, a few of them are a lethal thread to full loyalist squads. They also still use their "Legion tactics" und are outnumbered and outgunned most of the time but still survive and kill.




Chaos is not random.



And because the traitors are committed to not die at all they happily challenge a Wraithlord in heroic hand to hand combat... because... of reasons.



Cultists are usually not bound to CSM at all. They do not "throw" cultists at anyone because they do not have some. They get "their" cultists if they happen to raid a planet with an active cult on it or provide a cult beforehand (mostly Alpha Legion and Word Bearers) but they do not fly them around in space on their ships.
Cultists are actually more related to Daemons than to CSM.

wow, so many problems with this.

yes, in fact chaos all too frequently is random. that is why their followers get mutations that are not necessarily useful. if you think they aren't random, then you have no idea whatsoever what chaos actually is, and I suggest you go read up.

I hate to break it to you, but Night Lords are chaos space marines. sure, plenty of them don't worship chaos, that doesn't alter the fact that they are short on stuff.

Not all chaos space marines will challenge a wraithlord, only the champions who are determined to catch the eye of the gods and ascend.

[Charon]

that is why their followers get mutations that are not necessarily useful.

Maybe they are to the gods, they just do not know yet?


that doesn't alter the fact that they are short on stuff.

And the corsairs are not. Why not go by this example? They run a vast space empire with so much supplies they even sell them. Would you argue "but in gaunts ghosts there is an imperial guard regiment without tanks therefore no imperial guard regiment should be allowed to have tanks"


Not all chaos space marines will challenge a wraithlord, only the champions who are determined to catch the eye of the gods and ascend.

Because you completely lose your new won sense of self-preservation as soon as you see an opportunity to get killed. Sure. Especially for those who went renegade and are not even marked.
So basically that champion does not want to die so he runs away at the first few casualties but gladly throws himself at the first imperial knight he encounters because... he has a death wish.
And as you mention the Night lords, what was Talos opinion on "ascending"?

So could you please try to consider more than one single warband which doesn't even worship chaos when we try to discuss the '"benefits" of worshipping chaos?

[Kirsten]

no, the fluff is quite specific on the fact that chaos does random thnigs just because.

what are you talking about guard tanks for?

it is not about getting killed, it is about a chance for glory, that is why they are the unit champion in most instances. sure some of those units might not actually be big on chaos worship, you might decide your army of chaos space marines don't. that is fine. but that is not in the rules. if you want to house rule removing the requirement to challenge, and the eye of the gods stuff for your army, then by all means do so.

how about you actually stick to a point? I used Night Lords because those novels are a perfect example of what Yorkie is talking about. Sure, some warbands will do well for themselves, plenty wont. that is the problem with having a bunch of renegades, they don't have the infrastructure. Yorkie is entirely correct in his article. I don't need to consider more than a single warband, I was providing an example of what he was saying. all you have done is argue, rather than make any sort of argument.

[Charon]

no, the fluff is quite specific on the fact that chaos does random thnigs just because.

Except that it is not while it is quite specific about how mortals can not comprehend Chaos and it SEEMS random to them.

you might decide your army of chaos space marines don't.

no, I may not as it is in the rules. Unless braking rules to your advantage is an option.


that is the problem with having a bunch of renegades, they don't have the infrastructure. Yorkie is entirely correct in his article. I don't need to consider more than a single warband, I was providing an example of what he was saying. all you have done is argue, rather than make any sort of argument.

There are plenty of examples of renegades with vast infrastructure. The whole Gaunts Ghosts is about attacking a vast chaos empire. Yes, small warbands do not fare well, but the whole premise is like looking at greece and jump to "See, Europe is totally broke".

Also, like in his previous articles, he completely ignores every sourcebook or BL book that says otherwise and concentrates on the few that reinforce his opinion.

Like here:

Apart from when it is, I suppose… And the fact that some writers use it as that? I think that’s a problem.

Just because he personally doesn' like that part. That makes an opinion but not a fact.
Also his understanding how reality and chaos interact in 40k is flawed. No matter how super mighty the choas gody may be and no matter how much they can provide they do need a link, a node or anything. Khorne can't just manifest himself on terra and kill them all. He is a god and he CAN NOT DO THIS. He actually lacks POWER to do so.
See how even lesser daemons struggle to stay in reality? It is even harder for the bigger ones and IMPOSSIBLE for a chaos god. They NEED mortals.
It is not that chaos cares because it is like your mum, chaos cares because it NEEDS it followers.
They did not corrupt Horus because it will be fun, they corrupted him because "oh **** if the emperor succeeds we will be wiped out!" and they did not drop Horus at the end because "well, red bird sitting on a blue cat on a green night underwater" but because if Horus was victorious they would also have been wiped out.

Chaos is a lot more complex than "lol random". The whole "Sea of Souls" metaphor is about this as the Sea was to early (and later) seafaring cultures just "random" and "unpredictable"

[Mr Mystery]

I don't think it is more complex....

The Chaos Gods mean every single reward as an actual reward. They just don't really care if you become a Daemon Prince, or a Vibrating Bum-Faced Goat as a result.

At the very real risk of trivialising a not at all light hearted condition, and for which I will apologise in advance, think god like autism. They gain power from worship and acts dedicated to them (largely one and the same), and seek only to increase their number of supplicants. One supplicant does an almighty act which empowers their deity...deity 'rewards' them with the mind of a slug, the body of a chicken, and all the charm and charisma of an amoeba. Doesn't matter to the Gods. It's not that they don't care, so much as they're incapable of truly giving two hoots about you.

Take Abaddon. Blessed by all the Gods, but never, ever going to become a Daemon Prince, because they tried that once, and Belakor was the result.... And they can't control Belakor, because it needs all four of them...and they see advantage in coaxing Belakor to go and mess with the plans of the other Gods.

The Warp is anarchy. No rules, no reason. The Gods themselves are dark reflections of mortal emotions - so if a mortal cannot comprehend it, the reflective God can't either.

[daboarder]

The Chaos Gods mean every single reward as an actual reward. They just don't really care if you become a Daemon Prince, or a Vibrating Bum-Faced Goat as a result.

man the chaos gods dont give gifts as rewards, they do it solely to further their OWN goals. If that purpose is fueled by you being a spawn then pop goes the weasel. no real reward in it

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Night Lords trilogy follows a shrinking squad that has Uzas, a guy succumbing to Khorne's influence, and Cyrion who was blessed/cursed by Slaanesh and was also slowly succumbing to the desires it unlocked. Neither was loved or loved their God, but that dependency was there. More like a drug addict, especially in Cyrion's case.

To continue on the ADB fluff, because IMO the guy really does do the best he can at getting the "feel" of 40K right, the warband led by Iskandar at the start of The Talon of Horus is a barely held-together mess. They're constantly fleeing from persecution, they're unable to repair their vessel fully and even coming to neutral stations for repair and refitting is dangerous. They have Khornate soldiers, a Slaneeshi Emperor's Children character, and a Thousand Sons leader in Iskandar and his Rhubricae.

They're always scraping by, with never enough forces to truly crush an enemy. They spend their time running scared from Emperor's Children fleets as well as other Legions due to their loose allegiance with some of the Sons of Horus remnants. Everyone's killing and scavenging other Legion's gene-seed, weapons and vessels because there's no means to make more, not without hefty cost from the Dark Mechanicus.

[Path Walker]

None of us are equipped the type of intelligence needed to understand just how and why the Chaos Gods do things.

[Kirsten]

yup, they fight among themselves endlessly. of course they have supply issues, they are not a unified whole, they have no administratum. trying to pretend that chaos isn't random and that they can all fire as many bolter shells as they like a) ignores all the fluff and novels, and b) takes away everything that makes chaos great.

[Charon]

I also do not get why ppl always claim the warp follows no rules.
We have a strict hierarchy based on power. We have (or had) other Warp Gods that represent Duty, Rulership, Order,.. (Eldar Gods were actual warp gods, nothing random about them).

Also I would be interested in why people join Chaos if you just going to become a cowardly, weak mutant with chesseballs for eyes and three crippled arms that lacks food, weapons and friends.
Because every of these articles seems to point out how Chaos is just a bunch of sad losers.
So what makes Chaos "great"?
You end up in a worse spot before and all this "the great enemy" is just propaganda because after millienia of infighting and suppy issues they cant even pose a threat to anything.

[daboarder]

The Night Lords trilogy follows a shrinking squad that has Uzas, a guy succumbing to Khorne's influence, and Cyrion who was blessed/cursed by Slaanesh and was also slowly succumbing to the desires it unlocked. Neither was loved or loved their God, but that dependency was there. More like a drug addict, especially in Cyrion's case.

To continue on the ADB fluff, because IMO the guy really does do the best he can at getting the "feel" of 40K right, the warband led by Iskandar at the start of The Talon of Horus is a barely held-together mess. They're constantly fleeing from persecution, they're unable to repair their vessel fully and even coming to neutral stations for repair and refitting is dangerous. They have Khornate soldiers, a Slaneeshi Emperor's Children character, and a Thousand Sons leader in Iskandar and his Rhubricae.

They're always scraping by, with never enough forces to truly crush an enemy. They spend their time running scared from Emperor's Children fleets as well as other Legions due to their loose allegiance with some of the Sons of Horus remnants. Everyone's killing and scavenging other Legion's gene-seed, weapons and vessels because there's no means to make more, not without hefty cost from the Dark Mechanicus.

you do realize thats not the ONLY book agout the legions right?

Just because its ONE authors interpretation does not mean it holds true for all.

Furthermore ignoring all the other books and sundry because they dont match your preconceived notion is pretty silly.

Actually the constant justification for chaos to have lol randumb and bad rules that goes on is pretty sad and boring, are you all so jealous of the awesome modelling possibilities?

[Path Walker]

ADB is just so great. I love that man.

[daboarder]

yup, they fight among themselves endlessly. of course they have supply issues, they are not a unified whole, they have no administratum. trying to pretend that chaos isn't random and that they can all fire as many bolter shells as they like a) ignores all the fluff and novels, and b) takes away everything that makes chaos great.

neither does the imperium, its layer upon layer of jealousies, threats and old pacts that barely hold the crippled hulk together. All right there in the blurb really

- - - Updated - - -


ADB is just so great. I love that man.

that we can agree on, he is a fantastic author, just not the only one

[Path Walker]

I also do not get why ppl always claim the warp follows no rules.
We have a strict hierarchy based on power. We have (or had) other Warp Gods that represent Duty, Rulership, Order,.. (Eldar Gods were actual warp gods, nothing random about them).

Also I would be interested in why people join Chaos if you just going to become a cowardly, weak mutant with chesseballs for eyes and three crippled arms that lacks food, weapons and friends.
Because every of these articles seems to point out how Chaos is just a bunch of sad losers.

Same reason people deal crack on the streets for less than minimum wage, the desperate hope that one day, they'll get to be on top and get all the power?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I also do not get why ppl always claim the warp follows no rules.
We have a strict hierarchy based on power. We have (or had) other Warp Gods that represent Duty, Rulership, Order,.. (Eldar Gods were actual warp gods, nothing random about them).

Also I would be interested in why people join Chaos if you just going to become a cowardly, weak mutant with chesseballs for eyes and three crippled arms that lacks food, weapons and friends.
Because every of these articles seems to point out how Chaos is just a bunch of sad losers.

A strict heirarchy? Not at all. Abaddon is the nearest to a leader Chaos has, and even then it's a loose alliance. It's a miracle he ever manages to get all the various forces to not beat the crap out of each other rather than the enemy, as well as directing them to where the objective is and taking it out. IIRC, there's been several times certain legion forces have slipped the leash and screwed up his plans. It's to his credit that he recovers in these moments, and more than that, manages to excel at getting done what he needs to be done.

It doesn't matter what you want, mortal. It only matters what the Gods want, and if they accidentally overload your fragile, mortal body with mutations so you become a Spawn, it's not their fault. They cannot understand what owning a body even feels like, not truly, nor what it is to have it ripped apart by mutation. They merely glance at you with a minute fraction of their vast, unimaginable minds, which may result in Daemon Princehood, maybe in Spawnhood, or maybe nothing more than a benign tumour.

[Mr Mystery]

I also do not get why ppl always claim the warp follows no rules.
We have a strict hierarchy based on power. We have (or had) other Warp Gods that represent Duty, Rulership, Order,.. (Eldar Gods were actual warp gods, nothing random about them).

Also I would be interested in why people join Chaos if you just going to become a cowardly, weak mutant with chesseballs for eyes and three crippled arms that lacks food, weapons and friends.
Because every of these articles seems to point out how Chaos is just a bunch of sad losers.
So what makes Chaos "great"?
You end up in a worse spot before and all this "the great enemy" is just propaganda because after millienia of infighting and suppy issues they cant even pose a threat to anything.

Depends on your starting point, and indeed what knowledge you actually have of the Chaos Gods.

One of the God's greatest weapons is the level of sheer, completely intentional, ignorance installed by the Eccelsiarchy. Don't talk about it. Don't acknowledge it. Add in the remaining oppression of the Imperium (and there's a helluva lot of it) and the stage is set. Even the faintest glimmer of hope will be seized upon, and it's all done by degrees, a careful erosion of whatever humanity survives in your average Imperial mook.

[Kirsten]

yup, it is a high risk/high reward strategy.

it doesn't matter what you think about it, it is right there in the fluff, people worship chaos for all manner of reasons, and only a tiny percentage of them ever actually become a daemon prince.

Nobody has said chaos are sad losers, these articles prove the exact opposite, that chaos armies fight on regardless of mundane issues like supplies. you just seem to want them to be super powerful, all knowing, badasses who can fight fantastically at all times and have magical ever filling magazines of ammunition.

[Mr Mystery]

[supplicant]OH MIGHTY TZEENTCH! BLESS ME THAT MY BOLTER MAY HAVE UNENDING AMMO!

[Tzeentch]Rightydokeymoryalskip! bolter, magic. Magic, bolter....zsuh zsuh zsuh, just like that. Done. You now me owe me your soul, and every soul you kill.

[Supplicant]PRAISE BE!!!!! *dakka* ow.... *dakka* OW. *DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA* ARRGH THIS REALLY HURTS! Wait a mo.....whaaaaa? DUDE! IT'S FIRING MY TESTICLES AT THEM!


[Tzzentch]LOL! And the best bit is, I've fixed so your delicate flabbilydobbilies constantly regrow! And not where you'd expect them! Or want them for that matter!

[Charon]

A strict heirarchy? Not at all.

Please sort in terms of heirarchy:

Bloodletter - Bloodthirster - Daemon Prince - Herald - Khorne

so does the warp follow a heirarchy or not?

[Mr Mystery]

No. It doesn't.

[Path Walker]

Please sort in terms of heirarchy:

Bloodletter - Bloodthirster - Daemon Prince - Herald - Khorne

so does the warp follow a heirarchy or not?

Those Tittles are just the ones mortals attach to warp beings to try and comprehend their existence, they're not absolutes, they change, waxing and waning at the whims of the Gods.

You really think a warp entity assumes that form when not manifest in the material realm?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Please sort in terms of heirarchy:

Bloodletter - Bloodthirster - Daemon Prince - Herald - Khorne

so does the warp follow a heirarchy or not?

Does a Bloodletter "outrank" a Plaguebearer, or a Daemonette? Do they outrank Astartes? There are Daemons shown to be subservient to fleshlings, like Gyre from The Talon of Horus.

[Kirsten]

if you want a rigidly structured, perfectly organised and equipped band, Ultramarines are on your left.

[YorkNecromancer]

[supplicant]OH MIGHTY TZEENTCH! BLESS ME THAT MY BOLTER MAY HAVE UNENDING AMMO!

[Tzeentch]Rightydokeymoryalskip! bolter, magic. Magic, bolter....zsuh zsuh zsuh, just like that. Done. You now me owe me your soul, and every soul you kill.

[Supplicant]PRAISE BE!!!!! *dakka* ow.... *dakka* OW. *DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA* ARRGH THIS REALLY HURTS! Wait a mo.....whaaaaa? DUDE! IT'S FIRING MY TESTICLES AT THEM!


[Tzzentch]LOL! And the best bit is, I've fixed so your delicate flabbilydobbilies constantly regrow! And not where you'd expect them! Or want them for that matter!

Ha ha ha!

It's funny 'cause it's true. :)

[Charon]

Nobody has said chaos are sad losers, these articles prove the exact opposite, that chaos armies fight on regardless of mundane issues like supplies. you just seem to want them to be super powerful, all knowing, badasses who can fight fantastically at all times and have magical ever filling magazines of ammunition.

So then. What is their advantage over their loyalist counterparts who do have supplies, are all knowing badasses and super powerful who can fight fantastically at all times and have always full magazines of ammunition.


if you want a rigidly structured, perfectly organised and equipped band, Ultramarines are on your left.

Would not work because we all know that if the Ultramarines would ever succumb to Chaos they would instantly fill their drop pods up with explosives, pile up their assaultcannons, Razorbacks, grav guns, Landspeeders,.. and crash their explosive filled drop pods on top of this pile. After that they rush to the next "rent-a-heretic" store to get their pre heresy equipment and a brainwash to forget how they used to fight before.
Shortly after that they split apart while the imperium still pretends that they are a threat while, in reality, they are just a sad bunch without any supplies hardly surviving at the brink of existance.

So what is the "reward" in this? Any loyal space marine joining chaos is actually downgrading himself in every single aspect. That alone could be a hint that there has to be some more to it than "lack of supplies".

[Path Walker]

So then. What is their advantage over their loyalist counterparts who do have supplies, are all knowing badasses and super powerful who can fight fantastically at all times and have always full magazines of ammunition.



Would not work because we all know that if the Ultramarines would ever succumb to Chaos they would instantly fill their drop pods up with explosives, pile up their assaultcannons, Razorbacks, grav guns, Landspeeders,.. and crash their explosive filled drop pods on top of this pile. After that they rush to the next "rent-a-heretic" store to get their pre heresy equipment and a brainwash to forget how they used to fight before.
Shortly after that they split apart while the imperium still pretends that they are a threat while, in reality, they are just a sad bunch without any supplies hardly surviving at the brink of existance.

So what is the "reward" in this? Any loyal space marine joining chaos is actually downgrading himself in every single aspect. That alone could be a hint that there has to be some more to it than "lack of supplies".

The fact that he could become an all powerful Daemon Prince. The lure of power is how Chaos corrupts.

[CoffeeGrunt]

So what is the "reward" in this? Any loyal space marine joining chaos is actually downgrading himself in every single aspect. That alone could be a hint that there has to be some more to it than "lack of supplies".

Freedom from a doomed existence, the chance to gain life unending.

Many humans have lived and died to chase that dream, its allure is so entrenched in our culture that you could argue everything we do in some way pushes towards it. Every life-saving machine or vaccine, every improvement to medical technology. If an eldritch being appeared in the midst of a ceremony and told you all that by doing their will and pleasing their God, you too could become an immortal being of eldritch power like them, then of course they would sucker in hordes of the unwashed masses that make up the Imperium.

Space Marines in particular? Theirs' is a doomed existence. Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle. Some of them decide this is bogus, some of them are from flawed gene stock, some of them are victims of fate that drive them to Chaos regardless of their actions, (like the Thousand Sons.)

For example, the Flesh Tearers might be declared Excommunicate Traitoris because of their bloodthirsty gene-flaws. While some might decide to continue to fight in the Emperor's name to maybe one day prove their worth and achieve salvation, it would be likely that some would decide that as the Imperium sees them as traitors anyway, they might as well get something out of it...

[Charon]

Freedom from a doomed existence, the chance to gain life unending.

Didn't we just state that a servant of the dark gods is in fact a slave? And even the daemon prince is nothing more than a slave?
No freedom here. Not at all.


Space Marines in particular? Theirs' is a doomed existence. Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle. Some of them decide this is bogus, some of them are from flawed gene stock, some of them are victims of fate that drive them to Chaos regardless of their actions, (like the Thousand Sons.)

But hat is their gain out of this? If the Space Marines life is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." What do they GAIN from becoming a Chaos Space marine whos live is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." stays EXACTLY the same and you add in "you do not even get proper equipment anymore".


For example, the Flesh Tearers might be declared Excommunicate Traitoris because of their bloodthirsty gene-flaws. While some might decide to continue to fight in the Emperor's name to maybe one day prove their worth and achieve salvation, it would be likely that some would decide that as the Imperium sees them as traitors anyway, they might as well get something out of it...

And WHAT do they get out of it. I mean after they lost all their wargear and stuff because they are chaos now. They still fight, they still die. But now without proper equipment.

[Mr Mystery]

Because it's all a massive conspiracy against you?

[YorkNecromancer]

So then. What is their advantage over their loyalist counterparts who do have supplies, are all knowing badasses and super powerful who can fight fantastically at all times and have always full magazines of ammunition.

God.

You've never been desperate a day in your life, have you?

Speaking as someone who has been homeless, someone who has spent an unpleasant amount of time sofa-surfing, someone who's lived on some fairly bloody awful council estates because he couldn't afford more, I can tell you now, when you're down, the temptation to do anything to improve your lot is immense. I never did... But that was only because I was lucky enough to have some true friends.

Not everyone gets that.

What's the advantage? The fact you've got to ask shows just how clueless you are.

As for why did the original Legions fall? Why did Horus, when he had everything? The same reason that Arab sheik broke down in tears when he was moved down the list from fourth richest man on Earth to fifth. Because when you're on top, you think differently: you don't see what you have to gain, only what you stand to lose. Because money and power isn't just how the elite keep control, it's how they keep score. Because no matter how big the bucket, you can't empty a bath with it if there's a hole in the bottom.

In short, because they were insecure, Horus more than any of them. They were scared, and afraid, and damaged, and Chaos takes advantage of that. You see it in every religious cult the world over. Look up 'lovebombing' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing), educate yourself a little.

[Mr Mystery]

Lets also revisit the Superman analogy.

He's all powerful. He's unstoppable. Yet at no point in the main canon has he ever chosen to impose his benevolent rule. Why?

With Space Marines, you have the same question. There's not much could stop a Chapter, or even a Squad from installing itself as 'benevolent dictator' of a planet type thing. But they don't, because of psycho-indoctrination. It's drummed into them that they are humanity's protectors, not their rulers. Yet we have abundant evidence of that indoctrination lapsing, or being otherwise broken. Space Wolves in particular are dangerously close, having clashed with the Inquisition on numerous occasions. They can quite often do it with the best of intentions. Except, the majority of Astartes are not statesman. They are however all merciless killers. Downward spiral starts there.

Chaos may have nothing to do with the start of that fall, but you can bet they'll be happy to exploit it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Didn't we just state that a servant of the dark gods is in fact a slave? And even the daemon prince is nothing more than a slave? No freedom here. Not at all.

But hat is their gain out of this? If the Space Marines life is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." What do they GAIN from becoming a Chaos Space marine whos live is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." stays EXACTLY the same and you add in "you do not even get proper equipment anymore".

And WHAT do they get out of it. I mean after they lost all their wargear and stuff because they are chaos now. They still fight, they still die. But now without proper equipment.

As Yorkie said, if your situation is desperate enough you will cling to anything.

The Ruinous Powers tempt in a hundred, thousand different ways. They'll find your weakness and open that baby up, they'll make you dance on their strings just so you can cover or remove that weakness or turn it into a strength. Horus wanted power and they promised him it. They took his soul and gave him unimaginable power, the ability to crush a galaxy-spanning empire at the peak of its strength.

But Magnus? Magnus was led to underestimate Tzeentch. He was adamant he had agency and mastery of his fate, but ultimately Tzeentch's vastly superior intellect knew and understood Magnus, knew the choices he would make, and what it would take to tempt him. Appeal to his ego, grant him great power, freeze the clock on the Flesh Change. Tzeentch knew that Magnus was egotistical and arrogant enough to go do exactly as he wanted him to, provided he approached Magnus as a lesser daemon to be mastered, rather than a vastly superior mind Magnus still cannot comprehend. That right there. Magnus, one of the Primarchs, apex of the human race, with ten thousand years of immortal time and an unmatched intellect and education, cannot understand Tzeentch.

It's suggested even that Fateweaver, Tzeentch's own right-hand Daemon, is trying to subvert Tzeentch and guide him down the wrong path after Tzeentch threw him into the deepest pit of the Warp to ply the future. His followers are bought and discarded whenever his long plan demands it, and while you feel your role is to conquer worlds in his name, Tzeentch knows he'll take you right to the penultimate battle, and abandon you and your forces to die, because in defeating you the Imperium reclaims the territory, and a certain person will stumble upon a Chaos relic that might sway them, allowing him to corrupt the entire army that slew you in their turn. Thus Change cycles anew.

As far as Khorne? Blood must flow. Bloodletters and World Eaters would quite happily rip each other to shreds once their mutual enemy is slain, because the blood must flow. It must always flow.

Slaanesh? Who cares who's being maimed, tortured or pleased, so long as it keeps going. Their soldiers are twitching, frothing addicts to their senses, needing that next hit, no matter where or what feeds it.

So, you ask, why do people go into it? For the same reason people scoff at the homeless and keep running in the rat race we live in today. A Chaos Marine looks at the bloodthirsty Khorne marine, the ensnared Tzeentch cultist, the Slaaneshi sense-addict or the Nurgle bag of pus, and thinks:

"It'll never happen to me. My will is too strong, I'll make the Gods serve me!"

Yet each of them makes pacts, and steadily is tricked into surrendering their souls and becoming those people. Some do it gladly, some might not.

Yet, the only person to make that claim and succeed with it, is Abbadon. Abbadon isn't owned by a God, he owns them all. None of them lays claim to his soul, but they lavish him with power and riches. If the Gods are cruel lovers who abuse their followers, then Abaddon is the one who learned to turn that tactic back on them. He leads them on, accepts their gifts, and stays with them only as long as necessary to get what he wants while their objectives align.

And he's an example of what Chaos could do, if you were only strong enough to bend it to your will.

And of course you're strong enough...

...Right?

[YorkNecromancer]

As Yorkie said, if your situation is desperate enough you will cling to anything.

The Ruinous Powers tempt in a hundred, thousand different ways. They'll find your weakness and open that baby up, they'll make you dance on their strings just so you can cover or remove that weakness or turn it into a strength. Horus wanted power and they promised him it. They took his soul and gave him unimaginable power, the ability to crush a galaxy-spanning empire at the peak of its strength.

But Magnus? Magnus was led to underestimate Tzeentch. He was adamant he had agency and mastery of his fate, but ultimately Tzeentch's vastly superior intellect knew and understood Magnus, knew the choices he would make, and what it would take to tempt him. Appeal to his ego, grant him great power, freeze the clock on the Flesh Change. Tzeentch knew that Magnus was egotistical and arrogant enough to go do exactly as he wanted him to, provided he approached Magnus as a lesser daemon to be mastered, rather than a vastly superior mind Magnus still cannot comprehend. That right there. Magnus, one of the Primarchs, apex of the human race, with ten thousand years of immortal time and an unmatched intellect and education, cannot understand Tzeentch.

It's suggested even that Fateweaver, Tzeentch's own right-hand Daemon, is trying to subvert Tzeentch and guide him down the wrong path after Tzeentch threw him into the deepest pit of the Warp to ply the future. His followers are bought and discarded whenever his long plan demands it, and while you feel your role is to conquer worlds in his name, Tzeentch knows he'll take you right to the penultimate battle, and abandon you and your forces to die, because in defeating you the Imperium reclaims the territory, and a certain person will stumble upon a Chaos relic that might sway them, allowing him to corrupt the entire army that slew you in their turn. Thus Change cycles anew.

As far as Khorne? Blood must flow. Bloodletters and World Eaters would quite happily rip each other to shreds once their mutual enemy is slain, because the blood must flow. It must always flow.

Slaanesh? Who cares who's being maimed, tortured or pleased, so long as it keeps going. Their soldiers are twitching, frothing addicts to their senses, needing that next hit, no matter where or what feeds it.

So, you ask, why do people go into it? For the same reason people scoff at the homeless and keep running in the rat race we live in today. A Chaos Marine looks at the bloodthirsty Khorne marine, the ensnared Tzeentch cultist, the Slaaneshi sense-addict or the Nurgle bag of pus, and thinks:

"It'll never happen to me. My will is too strong, I'll make the Gods serve me!"

Yet each of them makes pacts, and steadily is tricked into surrendering their souls and becoming those people. Some do it gladly, some might not.

Yet, the only person to make that claim and succeed with it, is Abbadon. Abbadon isn't owned by a God, he owns them all. None of them lays claim to his soul, but they lavish him with power and riches. If the Gods are cruel lovers who abuse their followers, then Abaddon is the one who learned to turn that tactic back on them. He leads them on, accepts their gifts, and stays with them only as long as necessary to get what he wants while their objectives align.

And he's an example of what Chaos could do, if you were only strong enough to bend it to your will.

And of course you're strong enough...

...Right?

^ All the this.

[Charon]

As Yorkie said, if your situation is desperate enough you will cling to anything.

IF your situation was desperate to begin with. Which is not true for all renegades.


The Ruinous Powers tempt in a hundred, thousand different ways. They'll find your weakness and open that baby up, they'll make you dance on their strings just so you can cover or remove that weakness or turn it into a strength. Horus wanted power and they promised him it. They took his soul and gave him unimaginable power, the ability to crush a galaxy-spanning empire at the peak of its strength.

See that is a benefit we can work with. Now how is that translated into the game? Because the whole "short on supply" thing is translated. You do not get any cool gear because it requires maintenance.
Fine with that. So what happens to the "desperate" Raven Guard Marine when he becomes an Ex-Raven Guard Chaos Space Marine? Any new powers? Nope. But he is short in supply now. And he forgot how to Ravenguard. And... his equipment didnt make it to the eye of terror.


But Magnus? Magnus was led to underestimate Tzeentch. He was adamant he had agency and mastery of his fate, but ultimately Tzeentch's vastly superior intellect knew and understood Magnus, knew the choices he would make, and what it would take to tempt him. Appeal to his ego, grant him great power, freeze the clock on the Flesh Change. Tzeentch knew that Magnus was egotistical and arrogant enough to go do exactly as he wanted him to, provided he approached Magnus as a lesser daemon to be mastered, rather than a vastly superior mind Magnus still cannot comprehend. That right there. Magnus, one of the Primarchs, apex of the human race, with ten thousand years of immortal time and an unmatched intellect and education, cannot understand Tzeentch.

So.. chaos still provided them a new Planet and great power. What about that Mentor Legion Librarian turned to Tzeentch? Same like the Raven Guard marine. No powers, short in supply and he (as a follower of Tzeentch) even forgot how to predict the future.


It's suggested even that Fateweaver, Tzeentch's own right-hand Daemon, is trying to subvert Tzeentch and guide him down the wrong path after Tzeentch threw him into the deepest pit of the Warp to ply the future. His followers are bought and discarded whenever his long plan demands it, and while you feel your role is to conquer worlds in his name, Tzeentch knows he'll take you right to the penultimate battle, and abandon you and your forces to die, because in defeating you the Imperium reclaims the territory, and a certain person will stumble upon a Chaos relic that might sway them, allowing him to corrupt the entire army that slew you in their turn. Thus Change cycles anew.

which is plans inside of plans... and not random.


A Chaos Marine looks at the bloodthirsty Khorne marine, the ensnared Tzeentch cultist, the Slaaneshi sense-addict or the Nurgle bag of pus, and thinks:

"It'll never happen to me. My will is too strong, I'll make the Gods serve me!"

and what makes the loyal Space Marine look at the Chaos Space Marine (who is like his poor and untalented cousin) and think "Man that is exactly what I want!" ?



Yet each of them makes pacts, and steadily is tricked into surrendering their souls and becoming those people. Some do it gladly, some might not.

They gain benefits out of these pacts. Which is not reflected - only the lack of supplies is.


The problem with all that is if we do not think "Chaos provides" what makes Chaos Marines an actual threat to humanity?
You all seem to like the rag-tag first Claw from ADB. Is that warband ANY threat to the imperium at all? Even when 3 of them take out an entire Blood Anges squad (which will never ever happen in the tabletop because... chaos is short in supply and beeing a space vampire is superior to beeing a thousand years old veteran with bad equipment and no chaos benefits whatsoever) and their single warship nearly wipes out a loyal chapter by stealing their geneseed this is still no threat to the gigantic moloch of the imperium.

So at the end you play an army of complete morons wich traded their souls away for a lack of supplies.

Because at the end of the day the question is: How do Chaos Space Marines sustain themselves. Everyone is short on supply and Chaos doesnt provide. We love to cite ADBs Nightlords so we learned that every raid does cost more in blood and gear that it actually gets in. And we have permanent infighting.
So either the concept is flawed, there are no Chaos space Marines anymore and they are only imperial propaganda because after 10k years they would have died out at that rate or me must assume that Chaos does indeed provide.

[40kGamer]

One can make the argument that Chaos Marines in general are ill supplied, although there are indications in the fluff that chapters like the Iron Warriors have quite the organization and supply chain behind them. What drives me nuts is that Chaos Marines are often 'the original genetic stock from the great crusade with slight buffs from the warp' yet on the tabletop they are lucky to even go toe to toe with what should be modern day watered down loyalists. Maybe it's a design concept that is too hard to realize in action but it's a bit off putting when trying to field them.

[grimmas]

Read Talon of Horus folks it explains exactly what is going on with the Traitor Legions.

Also Chaos is unbelievably hierarchical that's the point it 'salways just one small step to more power that's how it works. It's how the gods motivate and control their followers. Of course it's ultimately all just a lie as all but the gods are slaves, but it's really all a matter of perspective really if you're going to be a slave you might as well be the most powerful one. It's not just the mortals either the daemons are the same look at the recent article on the ranks of Bloodthirsters. The hierarchies are constantly changing as would only be right with Chaos but they exist and are fundamental to how Chaos works.

[Alaric]

[removed - off topic related to deleted posts]

Well written York. Agree that Chaos is the worst girl/boyfriend you can imagine. I like the villains more than the heroes usually because they often have a more interesting "why they do what they do" aspect. I actually made a DnD villain based on Oprah because she could be a helluva bad guy. Worked out well too.

Chaos is chaotic, who knew!

Promoted and lookin forward to the next one.

[CoffeeGrunt]

So at the end you play an army of complete morons wich traded their souls away for a lack of supplies.

Because at the end of the day the question is: How do Chaos Space Marines sustain themselves. Everyone is short on supply and Chaos doesnt provide. We love to cite ADBs Nightlords so we learned that every raid does cost more in blood and gear that it actually gets in. And we have permanent infighting.
So either the concept is flawed, there are no Chaos space Marines anymore and they are only imperial propaganda because after 10k years they would have died out at that rate or me must assume that Chaos does indeed provide.

You don't seem to be grasping it.

Why do we work, here, in this day and age? To get money. Some people will work their *** off to stay afloat, barely, never achieving fame or fortune, never doing more than surviving. In fact, the vast majority of us will live like that, paycheck-to-paycheck, hand-to-mouth with some luxuries alongside that.

But we see the rich plastered all over the media. Oh, those guys. Clever or talented, look that lady won American Idol and became a millionairess in a few weeks! Look, this guy thought up this simple but ingenious invention, and now he's rolling in dosh! That's all it takes, guys, just impress the world and make one amazing movie/tv show/book series/game/invention/etc, etc. All it takes, just dig into that brain and keep working, keep working to get the cash to fund it, your big moment, your magnum opus and...

No one cares...but I spent my life on this...I'm bankrupt! On the street, begging for change, Hollywood ain't kind to aspiring artists for sure!

And the people that walk by you will sneer. They'll attribute it to drugs, or weakness, or some other fault. They all have the same dream you had. Some of them might have even shot down your project, stabbed you in the back just to get ahead a little. There you are, broken and forgotten, and they're walking past you retreading their steps. You could warn them, but what does it matter? None will listen to them, they're too smart, too rich, too big to fail. It's humanity's innate arrogance, our disbelief that fate, God or luck would turn around and bring down everything we've worked for in mere days.

It happens every day to hundreds of people. A redundancy here, a broken-down car with a quadruple figure repair bill there. In America, getting injured, which means medical expenses and lost work time.

And the Chaos Gods are the health insurance companies selling their wares. "Look at this loser who went bankrupt because he wasn't smart enough to invest in us. You guys are smart, you know safety when you see it, right? We'll look after you, providing you keep on helping us out and giving us what we need, okay?"

Playing Chaos lets you make a Lord who made it. Who was the 1% that got powerful, powerful enough to threaten the Imperium entirely under their own agenda and volition.

[modelguyicmt]

I don't understand the concept of this whole post.

How could there have been 13 crusades if they would have been out of ammo after the first one?

You really think that there are no armories in the Eye? You're just going to pretend that the Forge of Souls doesn't exist? That each Legion had warships which could resupply entire chapters of marines during the HH? That each Legion had thousands of Techmarines and tens of thousands of Mechanicus allies? That there are Dark Mechanicus Forgeworlds in the Eye, and many others spread throughout the galaxy?

Typhus' Manreaper is not an 'electronic device' it's a ********* DEAMON WEAPON, it CAN'T 'fall apart'. Plaguemarines are imbued with a tiny drop of the power of Nurgle /himself/, they bleed viruses for crying out loud, logic by definition, does not apply.

Anyway, this post is just so pointless and misguided. It's all based on one little piece of fluff from 30 years ago talking about how CSM that go off on their own have a hard time keeping their equipment going and finding ammo- *because they no longer can rely upon the resources of Legion warbands.* In fact, nowhere in any of the CSM codexes does it mention supplies being hard to come by, however there are multiple references to Daemon Worlds and Forgeworlds constructing weapons and war machines.

////If you're out trying to make a name for yourself you forfeit the ability to go to your warband's armory and take bolter ammo. If you're a renegade chapter you forfeit your ability to go to the local forgeworld and ask for a Land Raider. If you're an angsty Night Lord who hates all the other CSM because they're evil and you're just misunderstood, you forfeit the ability to ask for things from Abaddon.

If you're the leader of a warband in the Eye, you most likely have a standing within the feudal structure of the Eye and can bargain for whatever you want, from ammo to Heldrakes to titans.

[Alaric]

I don't understand the concept of this whole post.

How could there have been 13 crusades if they would have been out of ammo after the first one?

You really think that there are no armories in the Eye? You're just going to pretend that the Forge of Souls doesn't exist? That each Legion had warships which could resupply entire chapters of marines during the HH? That each Legion had thousands of Techmarines and tens of thousands of Mechanicus allies? That there are Dark Mechanicus Forgeworlds in the Eye, and many others spread throughout the galaxy?

Typhus' Manreaper is not an 'electronic device' it's a ********* DEAMON WEAPON, it CAN'T 'fall apart'. Plaguemarines are imbued with a tiny drop of the power of Nurgle /himself/, they bleed viruses for crying out loud, logic by definition, does not apply.

Anyway, this post is just so pointless and misguided. It's all based on one little piece of fluff from 30 years ago talking about how CSM that go off on their own have a hard time keeping their equipment going and finding ammo- *because they no longer can rely upon the resources of Legion warbands.* In fact, nowhere in any of the CSM codexes does it mention supplies being hard to come by, however there are multiple references to Daemon Worlds and Forgeworlds constructing weapons and war machines.

////If you're out trying to make a name for yourself you forfeit the ability to go to your warband's armory and take bolter ammo. If you're a renegade chapter you forfeit your ability to go to the local forgeworld and ask for a Land Raider. If you're an angsty Night Lord who hates all the other CSM because they're evil and you're just misunderstood, you forfeit the ability to ask for things from Abaddon.

If you're the leader of a warband in the Eye, you most likely have a standing within the feudal structure of the Eye and can bargain for whatever you want, from ammo to Heldrakes to titans.

Maybe put your money where your mouth is and write a better one then?

[Anggul]

Daemons and the warp. That is how chaos keeps on going. Most of their stuff has been moulded and mutated by the energy of the warp, a lot of it is just as biological as it is metallic, and it's fuelled by (literally) magic. The manreaper appears corroded because it's a daemon weapon of Nurgle. It looks rusted and useless to us, but it's magical, it's infused with warp energy.

Read the Black Legion supplement.

Abaddon knows that he can't win with force of arms alone. Like you say, the Imperials are supplied so much better in that regard, even while beset on all sides by aliens and heretics, from within and without. Abaddon is fully aware of this. That's why his plans revolve around using the power of the warp. He's going to make a conga line of tears in realspace so he can have unlimited daemonic allies. By force of mortal arms alone he cannot win. That's why he doesn't plan to rely on that, but the ineffable power of pure emotional energy and the horrific, reality-bending beings created from it.

The warp doesn't provide in an ordinary material way, in that you are absolutely correct. The Dark Mechanicum provide a lot, but there is only so much they manage to pump out and it's fought and bargained over, the same goes for raids. The warp, however, provides a source of unending pain and reality-twisting horrors which force of arms alone can only do so much against.

[Lexington]

Chaos "is" whatever's useful to the author writing it at the time. Much like the rest of 40K, it's inconsistent. Sometimes, people need it to provide a snarling villain for a pure action story, some want to use it to explore humanity's failings. Those are just two of a thousand thousand permutations might make for a good read. None of them really ends up being wrong 'till GW's IP department says otherwise, and given the things they've let through over the past several years, who thinks that listening to them is a good idea, anyway?

That said, didn't Andy Chambers approvingly link to York's original article on the subject? He's probably got as much to do with the modern incarnation of Chaos as anyone else. Hard to argue with that, I'd say.

[Mr Mystery]

And Yorkie ripped off one of my threads to post his.

Granted his was greatly more eloquent, but still :p

[YorkNecromancer]

It wasn't deliberate, dear boy. I think we'd probably both just been reading the same comments and getting a little frustrated by them. :)

[Mr Mystery]

That's what E L James said to Stephanie Meyer :p

It's alright. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all :p

[Fueldrop]

Why would anyone join chaos? Ignorance, and desperation.

We know that the Imperium does not educate its citizens on chaos beyond "It's bad". We know life as a worker on a forge world or a ganger in an underhive is pretty awful. So when your neighbor offers you a chance to escape the drudgery and fear for a brief moment by joining up with a "social group"... are you really going to say no? Then, when you're in it snowballs. Any citizen with half a brain knows that the imperium's law enforcement tends to be somewhat indiscriminate, so going to them is an intimidating prospect. Besides, you're not really doing anything that wrong, are you?

Add to that the sunken cost fallacy ("I'm in too deep, I may as well see this through to the end") and the supernatural corruption of chaos itself and you see how it goes.

[daboarder]

wow I read this thread and some of the posts man....

Do some of you actually read the background or just make up stuff to justify your argument on the fly?

we have written and acknowledged fordeworlds in the eye

We have traitor legions opperating AS traitor legions

We have Warbands with empires larger and more powerful than Ultramar

At the same time we have warbands that barely scrape by with limited supplies and poor equipment

But what we know unequivocally is that regardless of all this, the chaos legions are one fo the most dangerous threats to the imperium, likely surpassed only by the Tyranids, and we know that because GW spells it out in almost those EXACT words.

We are told that the Chaos legions have the power to topple the imperium, that means they do.

[Charon]

You don't seem to be grasping it.

Why do we work, here, in this day and age? To get money. Some people will work their *** off to stay afloat, barely, never achieving fame or fortune, never doing more than surviving. In fact, the vast majority of us will live like that, paycheck-to-paycheck, hand-to-mouth with some luxuries alongside that.

But we see the rich plastered all over the media. Oh, those guys. Clever or talented, look that lady won American Idol and became a millionairess in a few weeks! Look, this guy thought up this simple but ingenious invention, and now he's rolling in dosh! That's all it takes, guys, just impress the world and make one amazing movie/tv show/book series/game/invention/etc, etc. All it takes, just dig into that brain and keep working, keep working to get the cash to fund it, your big moment, your magnum opus and...

Oh I get it. Nobody is arguing that an imperial citizen who is on the bottom of things might be easily tempted as he may think he can't fall deeper anyways and he can only win by selling his soul.

The question is/was:

What makes a Space Marine, the pinnacle of humankind, the Rockstar of humanity look at a member of first claw and think:

"Oh boy look how they barely survive. I want that too!"

What makes a guy like Calgar, Lord of his own small empire look at a warband leader and think "Man, must be cool to join chaos"

These people are already on top. And if we buy that "erm... there are no big chaos empires it is all small warbands without supplies" there is NO BENEFIT to people who are on already on top.

And we also know that people who are on top of humankind are also tempted and often swayed by getting offered MORE. So cn we conclude that they actually get more and some of them are even able to run their empire like they did the last hundred years and make a big business supplying the small warbands that were not equally lucky?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Because not all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Some are gene-flawed, barely accepted by the Imperium. Some look at the power they have and want more, like Huron. Of course Calgar isn't going to fall, he has an empire and effectively a legion at his command.

But a smaller, more desperate chapter would be more likely. Maybe they've been fighting daemons for centuries, and like radical Inquisitors, start to ponder whether using the weapons of the enemy would be a good thing to do. Thus begins a steady fall into Chaos. Perhaps their Librarians were possessed unknowingly, and are slowly guiding the chapter to ruin from within. Perhaps they simply had f**ked up methods, and decided to go Renegade anyway because why are we serving these pathetic insects called, "Mankind?" A lot of Chapters have a callous-at-best attitude towards the average human, and many chapters have rituals that are pretty on the edge of heresy. Eating human remains springs to mind.

It doesn't take much to imagine why they might fall. In addition, empires like Huron's do have massive resources, far more than he had as the leader of a single Chapter. However, compared to the Imperium it ain't worth diddly, as the Imperium has a galaxy's worth of Forge Worlds and when you come strolling into realspace the army that wins the battle is the one packing the most men and firepower, which is what the Imperium has in abundance. So yes, they do have ample resources in the big empires, the large fragments of Legions and the like. But the majority of Chaos is made up of smaller warbands, who are the equivalent of those Space Marine Chapters who are so small and un-noteworthy that they can't even afford a few suits of Terminator armour, and have to carefully maintain a limited stock of weapons and men. The Lamenters spring to mind as a Loyalist version of this.

Plus there's moments like that High Lord who ordered several Chapters to attack the Eye of Terror on a penitent crusade, knowing that it'd corrupt them to Chaos long before they do anything of note.

[grimmas]

Most Space Marines don't just go traitor so they can worship the Chaos gods though, they rebel for also sorts of reasons, look how close the Space Wolves came and that certainly wasn't anything to do with worshiping chaos. Even in the Heresey only the Word Bearers turned to Worship Chaos, the others rebelled for other reasons, yep chaos sometimes gave them a push but it wasn't the reason.

The worship of chaos often comes later, usually as an act of desperation (like the Death Guard) it isn't that Chaos is necessarily the more attractive choice, it's simply the only choice for survival.

[Mr Mystery]

Because not all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Some are gene-flawed, barely accepted by the Imperium. Some look at the power they have and want more, like Huron. Of course Calgar isn't going to fall, he has an empire and effectively a legion at his command.

But a smaller, more desperate chapter would be more likely. Maybe they've been fighting daemons for centuries, and like radical Inquisitors, start to ponder whether using the weapons of the enemy would be a good thing to do. Thus begins a steady fall into Chaos. Perhaps their Librarians were possessed unknowingly, and are slowly guiding the chapter to ruin from within. Perhaps they simply had f**ked up methods, and decided to go Renegade anyway because why are we serving these pathetic insects called, "Mankind?" A lot of Chapters have a callous-at-best attitude towards the average human, and many chapters have rituals that are pretty on the edge of heresy. Eating human remains springs to mind.

It doesn't take much to imagine why they might fall. In addition, empires like Huron's do have massive resources, far more than he had as the leader of a single Chapter. However, compared to the Imperium it ain't worth diddly, as the Imperium has a galaxy's worth of Forge Worlds and when you come strolling into realspace the army that wins the battle is the one packing the most men and firepower, which is what the Imperium has in abundance. So yes, they do have ample resources in the big empires, the large fragments of Legions and the like. But the majority of Chaos is made up of smaller warbands, who are the equivalent of those Space Marine Chapters who are so small and un-noteworthy that they can't even afford a few suits of Terminator armour, and have to carefully maintain a limited stock of weapons and men. The Lamenters spring to mind as a Loyalist version of this.

Plus there's moments like that High Lord who ordered several Chapters to attack the Eye of Terror on a penitent crusade, knowing that it'd corrupt them to Chaos long before they do anything of note.

Yup.

And it's how you requisition your kit.

Adeptus Astartes? Rock up to the local Forgeworld, and pretty much just collect whatever you require that your Techmarines can't produce or maintain themselves. And that would easily include relic stuff you've salvaged from a random battlefield.

Chaos? Weeeellllll......really not so easy. You have far more limited Forgeworlds to pick from, and then you have to negotiate/successfully threaten/barter for whatever it is you'd need. And that will come with a pretty price attached. After that? You have to hope they've not backstabbed/betrayed you, and there's not bigger boys lurking around ready to, ah....requisition and liberate your shiney new gear. Lost a lot of warriors? Well thankfully here you're OK for recruits, as you have Cultists and whatnot. But the actual implantation/gestation and training? Oh Gods.....I don't want to have to deal with Fabius Bile. Not after the last time. If I wanted my new recruits to have three arses, you'd think I'd have asked....

And there's the difference. The Imperium (largely) works along the lines of co-operation for mutual benefit. Chaos? Everyone....everyone is looking out for number one first and foremost.

[Denzark]

Again, well written, but ignores the elephant in the room that I have brought up the last 2 times this came up. Logistics. It's how wars are won. Let me go through a few things again.

1. ATSKNF. HH novels repeatedly mention how this is hardwired into marines. They are physically incapable of fearing almost anything except Primarchs. It is in their (male only) geneseed. Whilst I can see how being subverted by Chaos would potentially undo this psycho conditioning, there is no reason why VOTLW would not have something. World Eaters, Emp Children, DG and 1Ks are all fearless... what are we saying if you totally subvert you are fearless but renegades/traitors - you're not evil enough? You are quasi-evil? You are the diet coke of evil?

2. Bolters. CSM especially VOTLW are peerless masters of warfare. Peerless masters of warfare do not select a weapon system that they cannot reliably re-supply. What is their No1. Weapon system? Bolt weapons. Suffice to say some may fire bolts and some may fire magic bogies but sure as shizzle, war masters do not use bolters if they can't keep them ammo'd up. Pure logistics.

3. On Structure and hierarchy. Again, the Gaunt's Ghost novel with the traitor general describes in detail, whilst the traitors are trying to indoctrinate the general, that they have a society. With infrastructure. With heavy industry. With captured forges. Admittedly some traitors just kill maim burn or render an entire world down into a Slaanesh swingers party deluxe. But not all. Some are ostensibly rational in outlook. It is first order analysis only to claim all traitors are ragged warbands cos there is considerable evidence that this is not true all the time.

4. On restrictions. Chaos has none. Not in the way the munitorum and the Admech and the ecclesiarchy constrain imperial freedom of manoeuvre. Sometimes this is a benefit.


So again, I have shown, at times with source evidence (can't be arsed to trawl the specific books for pages), that to keep calling Chaos a raggedy worzel gummidge band is superficial. If you think the Dark Mech ability to hack the Noosphere of Mars just went away you are slightly deluded.

For this to be continuously peddled by Yorkie and other (non-chaos) players is an awesome piece of Inquisition propaganda and agent provocateurism. I therefore expect he is actually Alpha Legion - with fully functioning storm bolters, razor backs and assault cannons of course.

[benn grimm]

You're good.) Another great mind-blast from Mr Necromancer, cheered me up immensely, nice article. Anyway, I think between you Coffee Grunt, ADB you have it pretty much down to a tee. And I'm chaos all the way.

Ive always thought of the Chaos Gods as being like massive ponderous yet predatory sea creatures, Leviathans of the warp, slowly swimming along, great vast gestalt consciousnesses formed of emotion and psychic torment, utterly unfathomable, sucking up all the psychic bile. They are as distantly removed from us as plankton are from wales, it is the daemons which make up a god which have all the personality and offer the link a man needs to 'commune with the gods'. So when you talk to the gods, you really talk to daemons, who lie and have their own motivations.

As for the legions, some fight still at a strength as great or greater than that they had during the time of the heresy (Wordbearers), but on the whole the traitor legions are broken and scattered. Fresh renegades will have it even harder, the Soul Drinker series I thought was really good at showing what happens when a chapter goes renegade, basically it doesn't last long as anything much resembling a chapter of space marines, regardless of chaos worship or not. Loyal Astartes need a lot of up-keep...

[40kGamer]

Because not all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Some are gene-flawed, barely accepted by the Imperium. Some look at the power they have and want more, like Huron. Of course Calgar isn't going to fall, he has an empire and effectively a legion at his command.

If Horus can fall at the height of his power I'd say anyone outside of the Emperor has the potential to fall, and as Grimmas mentioned, it could be for any number of reasons that a chapter initially starts down a the road that may lead to Chaos.

[Denzark]

They are as distantly removed from us as plankton are from wales, it is the daemons which make up a god which have all the personality and offer the link a man needs to 'commune with the gods'. So when you talk to the gods, you really talk to daemons, who lie and have their own motivations.


How far is plankton from Wales, is it in Northumberland or Cumbria, I forget? ;)

[Mr Mystery]

If Horus can fall at the height of his power I'd say anyone outside of the Emperor has the potential to fall, and as Grimmas mentioned, it could be for any number of reasons that a chapter initially starts down a the road that may lead to Chaos.

To be fair to Horus, we wasn't exactly seduced. Was a good deal more forceful than that, and included an incredibly near death experience via DaemonSword....

I've avoided the obvious word here, because we're discussing toy soldiers, and it doesn't do go trivialise serious things.

[40kGamer]

To be fair to Horus, we wasn't exactly seduced. Was a good deal more forceful than that, and included an incredibly near death experience via DaemonSword....

I've avoided the obvious word here, because we're discussing toy soldiers, and it doesn't do go trivialise serious things.

True his conversion was helped along and a bit heavy handed, but there must have been some inherent psychological crack for him to have even put up with Erebus or allowed Chaos to take root.

[Denzark]

I genuinely think it must be harder for Chaos to subvert an entire M.41 chapter into renegades, than it was to turn Primarchs who after all, were 'got at' when they were quite literally in the womb. From then on the legions were going to mostly follow their primarchs into heresy.

[benn grimm]

How far is plankton from Wales, is it in Northumberland or Cumbria, I forget? ;)

Doh! (red face), I'd say it's at least as far as the sea, so maybe 15/20 foot? ;)

[Mr Mystery]

I genuinely think it must be harder for Chaos to subvert an entire M.41 chapter into renegades, than it was to turn Primarchs who after all, were 'got at' when they were quite literally in the womb. From then on the legions were going to mostly follow their primarchs into heresy.

It's kind of (very broadly) hinted at that post-Heresy Astartes receive additional mental tweaking and conditioning. I do mean very, very broadly. Those in the Heresy books seem to retain more of their humanity for the most part. Books set in the modern age? Marines seem to have high functioning autism - they just don't seem to relate to the average spods as much.

Quite possibly just a difference in writing styles, but would explain ATSKNF suddenly coming in. Modern Astartes simply have far less free will, including the 'hmm. Probs best to withdraw and come at it again from a different angle' we regularly see during the Heresy.

[Kirsten]

It's kind of (very broadly) hinted at that post-Heresy Astartes receive additional mental tweaking and conditioning. I do mean very, very broadly. Those in the Heresy books seem to retain more of their humanity for the most part. Books set in the modern age? Marines seem to have high functioning autism - they just don't seem to relate to the average spods as much.

Quite possibly just a difference in writing styles, but would explain ATSKNF suddenly coming in. Modern Astartes simply have far less free will, including the 'hmm. Probs best to withdraw and come at it again from a different angle' we regularly see during the Heresy.

yeah it is established that the sort of conditioning marines receive post heresy is different to that of pre heresy. Plus the primarchs are described as having both strengths and flaws magnified by the genetic tinkering. so making them the pinnacle of humanity militarily also heightened their susceptibility to more base emotions.

the difference between 30k and 40k marines is a big part of why I struggled with the heresy novels originally, 40k marines being far more monastic.

[Denzark]

I agree with both MM and Kirsten that 40K marines have a certain 'something' different. The monastic element is easily explainable - religion was verboten for the crusade, it came in afterwards.

But the autism is for me there right from the start of the HH series - the few marines that get on with humans / remembrancers are portrayed as oddball.

[Mr Mystery]

And don't forget....you can be completely unafraid of a given situation, yet still realise to stick around is a bloody stupid idea right now.

Adeptus Astartes are famed for fighting against impossible odds. CSM aren't. One of them is lacking the ability to see a lost cause, the other can tell when it's better to preserve your forces for another day.

[YorkNecromancer]

The other thing to consider about Astartes is that they are posthuman, with all (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Summer-Juan-Jose-Ryp/dp/1592910521) the insanity (http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Hero-Juan-Jose-Ryp/dp/159291084X/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y) that brings (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Supergod-Volume-TP-Garrie-Gastonny/dp/1592910998/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_z).

[Denzark]

for me, the argument about ATSKNF is quite specious. It is problematic in balance when comparing points cost of marines/Grey hunters vs CSM. But when your pukka legionnaires - World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Noise Marines - disregard all - it is somewhat irrelevant.

Actually what matters is the equipment issue. As I have stated ad infinitem, cunning VOTLW do not select weapon systems they cannot re-supply - bolt weapons are readily available. I think the Deathwatch RPG fluff in some ways clashes with 'canon' (whatever that is) in a lucasfilm style and I don't rate it.

[Lurker]

I agree with both MM and Kirsten that 40K marines have a certain 'something' different. The monastic element is easily explainable - religion was verboten for the crusade, it came in afterwards.

But the autism is for me there right from the start of the HH series - the few marines that get on with humans / remembrancers are portrayed as oddball.

I agree with you, except for the autistic view. Personally, I've always taken it to be like cliquishness. The marines were part of an elite military brotherhood whereas the remembrancers were not, even the guard was closer to the marines- they weren't elites, but they were part of the broader military brotherhood. iirc, i think it was mentioned in the first book that some SM's even regarded the IG as sort of little brothers. When the warrior societies started cropping up within the legions you had a somewhat similar attitude in that if you weren't (or were) part of one you were kinda odd, and that was within the same legion. It seemed as if the Remembrancers treated the marines in particular like Rock-Star Versions of Howard Hughs. "OME - you got an interview with captain suchandwho!? what's he like? did you ask his favorite color?"
Marines for their part "knew" they were better than standard humans and let that go to their heads. Think of it like the Cool Kid Captain of the Varsity Team sitting with the chess nerds in high school i guess. I think its that sort of thing that creates the idea of "odd" from other marines when looking at those friendly to non-marines. "What's he doing? WHy's he talking to THAT person? they're not Cool!"
Whereas the modern Marines imho are more like Golems than their souped up predecessors. Programmed to War, not to evolve.

just a thought, hope it makes sense.

[Arkhan Land]

I genuinely think it must be harder for Chaos to subvert an entire M.41 chapter into renegades, than it was to turn Primarchs who after all, were 'got at' when they were quite literally in the womb. From then on the legions were going to mostly follow their primarchs into heresy.

In the few instances I can think of It would seem perhaps that most of the modern Renegades were chased away from the Imperium by the Imperium/inquisition over deep geneseed mutations in the second founding or through other un-genetic problems like the Relictors or ole Huron, which based on fluff, may have also involved some level of trickery/influence on the part of chaos to sort of set in motion the overbearing hand of the imperium. either way these groups are often specifically noted as having being down to a single company and split between those who stayed loyal and those who went rogue, which gets to me to my thought I want to throw in there

sort of thinking about for example German Sheppards as dogs, incredibly meticulously bred for their purpose and when done so are a near neurotic dog without top down organization from leadership pack or handler, often known to develope debilitating anxiety when not trained and socialized properly.

Perhaps its not so different for even the modern post HH conditioned marines, I assume that in a situation where a single marine or even a sqaud is totally cutoff/lost that the one marine/sqaud could over the long term of their stranded period go totally bonkers and basically become prone not neccesarily to chaos immediately but just to pure aggression towards anything that bugs it for howeverlong they can live without rations/off the land. or maybe itll be like that one japanese soldier that defended his emplacement into the 1970s and we shouldnt worry...

[Charon]

either way these groups are often specifically noted as having being down to a single company and split between those who stayed loyal and those who went rogue

According to fluff (that is the often cited Nightlords Omnibus) Hurons power is only dwarfed by Abaddon. He runs a vast pirate empire with multiple space stations and a fleet that could try to take on an imperial sector fleet.
The problem here is the chaos codex is said to be more about renegades and less about the legions of old. And still all the wargear is from the legions of old and even if you happen to play one of the "rich" guys like Huron or Abaddon you are still stuck with poorly equipped 2nd class marines.

[Gamgee]

I always have that issue with Superman. any other super hero, you know they will win, you just don't know how. with Superman, it is is how can he not?

I love the fact that chaos are short on stuff. The Night Lords trilogy has them constantly struggling with supply issues, they don't have enough servitors for all the crew stations on ship, they can't fire all the weapons on their thunderhawk. the most badass terrifying villains in the universe go scavenging for stuff the imperium wastes billions of, and I think it is fantastic.

chaos might make their guns shoot lightning, but then the next day they might make them shoot defrosting peas, because it is funny.

I always find it funny when people complain about chaos marines not having 'and they shall know no fear' too, despite the fact part of the very reason they are chaos marines is because they have thrown off the conditioning. why do they fall back when loyalists don't? because loyalists are committed to dying heroically, and traitors are committed to not dying at all. they see a few of their comrades shot down and they think screw that, I am a thousand years old, I am not hanging around here for somebody else's plan, I will go do what I want to do.
He can't win if he's fighting Goku.

[Deathmage]

To add my own on thoughts on this I am going to use THE POWER OF METAPHOR.

-Your depressed, you cant get through a single day without hating everything around you

You know your a mindless pawn in a game, you cant get through a single day without hating everything around you

-You discover drugs, you know its bad for you but it makes all the pain go away. You wont get addicted

You discover chaos, you know its bad for you but it makes all the pain go away. You wont be controlled

-You hear people telling you to take it to a who new level of escape, the ultimate high

You hear voices telling you to take it to a who new level of escape, the ultimate accession

-A drug dealer is controlling you, always charging you more. The pains are getting worse

A warlord is controlling you, always sending you into tough situations. The mutations are getting worse

-You are now hopeless sobbing in the gutter, your probably going to die

You are now a spawn sobbing in the gutter, your probably going to die


And this is what its like to be chaos, you could make it big and ascend, but you'll most likely be killed like the pawn you are... Yet you still try, because you could. The hope is dangerous and corrupts you