Alternative "And They Shall Know No Fear"

[Fueldrop]

ATSKNF is an odd special rule, as it effectively eliminates Morale and Fear from the game but without the disadvantages of fearless (eg ATSKNF troops can still hit and run, can get out of a losing fight then auto-rally and shoot their attackers to pieces, ect), not to mention making entire swathes of wargear useless against Space Marines.

While I'm not adverse to Space Marines being brave, the fact that their entire army has this huge advantage and space marines and variants are hands down the most common army out there makes Morale, which should be an important part of the game, fairly pointless and fear never worth the bulk points it inevitably costs.

So... What if ATSKNF was simply "Models with this special rule may roll an additional d6 and discard the highest dice whenever making Morale, Rally, and Fear checks"?

Would that really be so bad?

[Austin Becht]

ATSKNF is an odd special rule, as it effectively eliminates Morale and Fear from the game but without the disadvantages of fearless (eg ATSKNF troops can still hit and run, can get out of a losing fight then auto-rally and shoot their attackers to pieces, ect), not to mention making entire swathes of wargear useless against Space Marines.

While I'm not adverse to Space Marines being brave, the fact that their entire army has this huge advantage and space marines and variants are hands down the most common army out there makes Morale, which should be an important part of the game, fairly pointless and fear never worth the bulk points it inevitably costs.

So... What if ATSKNF was simply "Models with this special rule may roll an additional d6 and discard the highest dice whenever making Morale, Rally, and Fear checks"?

Would that really be so bad?

Correct me if I' wrong, as I haven't read he rules in a long time, but ATSKNF also allows you to regroup even when the unit would normally not be able to, right? If so, I'd add the clause: "...Additionally, the unit may test to regroup even if it is not normally able to."

I also think ATSKNF applies to Pinning, so throw that in there too. Now you have: "Models with this special rule may roll an additional d6 and discard the highest dice whenever making Morale, Pinning, Rally, and Fear checks. Additionally, the unit may test to regroup even if it is not normally able to."

So we've essentially created the same rule, but toned it down so things like Fear and Pinning can work on Marines, but will still largely be ineffective.

I think that would be an acceptable replacement to the current ATSKNF.

[Fueldrop]

Correct me if I' wrong, as I haven't read he rules in a long time, but ATSKNF also allows you to regroup even when the unit would normally not be able to, right? If so, I'd add the clause: "...Additionally, the unit may test to regroup even if it is not normally able to."
Sounds reasonable.


I also think ATSKNF applies to Pinning, so throw that in there too. Now you have: "Models with this special rule may roll an additional d6 and discard the highest dice whenever making Morale, Pinning, Rally, and Fear checks. Additionally, the unit may test to regroup even if it is not normally able to." ATSKNF doesn't actually help vs pinning, so I intentionally left it out. Not that much causes pinning these days.



So we've essentially created the same rule, but toned it down so things like Fear and Pinning can work on Marines, but will still largely be ineffective.

I think that would be an acceptable replacement to the current ATSKNF.

Pretty much. Marines are supposed to be of iron will, but completely immune to fear, even from supernatural sources? I can accept that from Synapse 'Nids as they literally have no sense of self preservation, and from Daemons which are literally manifestations of dark gods. Beyond that it should be a rare trait, not something available army-wide, including initiates!

[Archon Charybdis]

I'd had a similar thought of always being Ld 10 for the purposes of Fear checks. As you said, there's too many models that are paying for a useless ability and too much cool wargear that gets left at home because Marines have a hyperbolic special rule name. But yeah, roll 3 discard the highest sounds like a solid fix to me.

[SgtJoo]

Pretty much. Marines are supposed to be of iron will, but completely immune to fear, even from supernatural sources? I can accept that from Synapse 'Nids as they literally have no sense of self preservation, and from Daemons which are literally manifestations of dark gods. Beyond that it should be a rare trait, not something available army-wide, including initiates!

Agreed.

Interesting note, as memory serves, 30k Legion Marines don't have ATSKNF... So that's something to chew on. .

[Voltigeur]

You can really see the difference between marines with and without ATSKNF by playing 30k. The first time you have twenty or so Space Marines caught in a sweeping advance you'll realise how much you miss it!

All of my 40k armies are some colour of power armour so I've grown to love ATSKNF, but I'd be open to seeing it change as long as whatever replaced it was still decent.

[phreakachu]

if you strip out the immunity to fear, youd have to rewrite the effects of the fear usr.
as currently written, it would bone the aforementioned half of armies you see in game. personally, i think the atsknf is ok as is, but for some units i believe an additional fearlike rule should apply, that would bypass atsknf.. lets call it terror.
bloodletters, nurgle marines, not so fearsome. blood thirster, thats terrifying.

[Brettila]

Not a bad solution. Another big fix would be to not let 1 model with ATSKNF give it to troops that do not have it. Astartes have it for special genetic/chemical/indoctrinary reasons. Azrael should not be able to miraculously give a 50-man IG blob a 4++ and immunity to Morale.

[Djbz]

if you strip out the immunity to fear, you'd have to rewrite the effects of the fear usr.
as currently written, it would bone the aforementioned half of armies you see in game. personally, i think the atsknf is ok as is, but for some units i believe an additional fear like rule should apply, that would bypass atsknf.. lets call it terror.
bloodletters, nurgle marines, not so fearsome. bloodthirster, that's terrifying.

Being overcome by fear should "bone" things.
May see more upgrade characters/army standards (Which the marine one now allows re-rolls to fear tests- despite the fact that they automatically pass).

[deathadder]

I'd go for 3d6, pick the two lowest for ATSKNF. I hate how it is now. There are so many fun things I'd like to do with armies that are just pointless due to that one special rule. hell, I'd like to run a Solitaire because, yes... But the fact I can charge into a unit of marines, wipe half of em out, then I'm automatically stuck in combat with them until the end of time is just stupid... And the fact they gave Dark Eldar so many fun toys that are useless against ATSKNF, makes playing the codex rather pointless..

[Fueldrop]

I'd go for 3d6, pick the two lowest for ATSKNF. I hate how it is now. There are so many fun things I'd like to do with armies that are just pointless due to that one special rule. hell, I'd like to run a Solitaire because, yes... But the fact I can charge into a unit of marines, wipe half of em out, then I'm automatically stuck in combat with them until the end of time is just stupid... And the fact they gave Dark Eldar so many fun toys that are useless against ATSKNF, makes playing the codex rather pointless..

My Dark Eldar are why I made the suggestion. All those Torment Launchers and Phantasm Grenade Launchers, which cost a lot of points, are completely useless against half the armies out there. Along with the Archangel of Pain, the Armour of Misery, and the fact that the only thing our assault units (2/3rds of the army) are good at are sweeping advances... Yeah, ATSKNF as it is really screws us over. The only morale thing that Marines are vulnerable to is pinning, which is incredibly rare these days.

EDIT: Also let's be honest: 3d6 drop the highest is still incredibly good in all but the most hopeless of situations. It means you're virtually never going to fail an unmodified Morale or Fear test, and even with modifiers you're still at a considerable advantage. Given how modifiers tend to be priced really high, that's still a big deal.

[Captain Bubonicus]

I'd go for 3d6, pick the two lowest for ATSKNF. I hate how it is now. There are so many fun things I'd like to do with armies that are just pointless due to that one special rule. hell, I'd like to run a Solitaire because, yes... But the fact I can charge into a unit of marines, wipe half of em out, then I'm automatically stuck in combat with them until the end of time is just stupid... And the fact they gave Dark Eldar so many fun toys that are useless against ATSKNF, makes playing the codex rather pointless..

That's a great idea. I wish they'd put morale back into 40K - it was a lot more fun when stuff actually ran away.