Loving the people upset about warhammer AOS [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

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Xaric

07-01-2015, 09:14 PM

Sorry people tzeentch said "lets change things up a bit" so anyway why are people so upset about the change's to use words like "this is not warhammer or this is not 9th edition its a new game... get over yourself this is 9th edition things change embrace or leave it helps us daemon players out a lot if its true about the round base's but what interest's me personally is these battle scrolls does that mean army books are going to be a lot smaller and cheaper? also the formation thing and alliance is more fluffy and I do enjoy themed and narrative games.

Cap'nSmurfs

07-01-2015, 09:24 PM

There probably won't be army books as such anymore. I suspect - I have no evidence - that there'll be faction/narrative sourcebooks from here on out, a la End Times (but hopefully cheaper!) with a mix of rules (which will be in model boxes anyway), background, scenarios and storylines. Perhaps that's wishful thinking from me; it's what I hope they do.

Xaric

07-02-2015, 12:42 AM

From my personal observation's the source books (rule book and faction book) will contain the following Fluff the art section and core rules that defines that army to be used in conjunction with the battle scrolls.

This gives us the benefit of possible future of loads of new models due to the model rules coming with the models no more huge tome to carry around with you also on that note no need to flip page's in the book to find the rules and stat lines of the models themselves also using the battle scroll as a sort of bookmark in the core rule book for rules that are hard to remember.

Downside is to get rules for the model you own you need to buy a new model unless GW are going to be nice about it and give rules to those who do infact own the models.

odinsgrandson

07-02-2015, 08:52 AM

40kGamer

07-02-2015, 09:09 AM

Word is, GW are going to be nice and give rules out for free for "all existing models."

People are upset (I feel legitimately) because the new game does not seem to resemble the game GW is replacing.

Absolutely... plus most people hate surprises like this too. GW communication is awful.

I also expect GW will make major changes to the model designs as they update/revisit armies. I doubt their IP police are going to stop with the silly names.

Cap'nSmurfs

07-02-2015, 09:13 AM

It's not just "word is", it's confirmed in this week's White Dwarf. All rules for all existing models are going to be available on the GW website in their new form.

Morgrim

07-02-2015, 09:17 AM

I am irritated because it looks like the army I play - aztec inspired dinosaurs with an interesting lore - is no longer around. Oh, sure, there are vague hints of reptilian mercenaries. But that's not the same. That's gutting the bits I liked and leaving the boring bits in.

I'm not going to make any judgements until I see the rules, but I don't feel that completely cancelling one game (WFB) after saying for months that it would not be cancelled is very honest. No, making an entirely new game that generously allows you to use pre-existing models does not count, it's still GW lying and we're still allowed to be miffed.

Theik

07-02-2015, 04:03 PM

How is the new ghetto lore about aelfs and steamwork duardin (or something?) more fluffy than the old fantasy setting, which didn't look like somebody let a 7 year old child loose with a few extra letters for copyright purposes?

The Madman

07-02-2015, 05:55 PM

Path Walker

07-02-2015, 06:28 PM

No really, its just whining for whinings sake now, GW never said Fantasy wouldn't end, they made a series called The End Times, pretty much the exact opposite. They said it would lead to something new, which it has.

They've really thought this through,you might not like it now because its a change but you'll play it because its free and can use your existing models, and you'll either discover its a really fun relaxed game or you'll hate it because its not for tournament/competitive play. Thats it.

hamiltongeyser

07-02-2015, 06:45 PM

"They look like Space Marines! I don't want 40k in my fantasy!"

Meanwhile, the daemon guys are exactly the same as their counterparts in 40k.

40kGamer

07-02-2015, 09:21 PM

At the moment I thinking of going back to 40k even though the abundance of formations has soured the game somewhat; as for my other friends who quit 40K to jump to Fantasy it looks like they will be quitting table top gaming for good if they can't keep an 8th edition group going.

IMO 7th ed 40k sucks balls so I've went all the way back to Epic Armageddon. ;)

Wildeybeast

07-02-2015, 11:27 PM

Path Walker, too suggest that people are upset about the end of Warhammer just because they can't play competitively any more is as stupid as it insulting and wrong. Plenty of people playing 8th played it for fun, in a relaxed way. In fact, at the tournies I went to over the last couple of years, there were very few people actually using power gaming lists. Far more people had fluffy lists or just nice models.

As for GW having thought it through, I'm not sure they have. At least not well enough. Can you honestly tell me you think the new copyright friendly names are anything other than ridiculous? Do you think measuring from models rather than bases is a good idea? What about the apparent lack of anything resembling a balancing mechanic?

eldargal

07-03-2015, 03:37 AM

Well, most of the old names were ridiculous too. GW has always been bad with names. The new names are absolutely ridiculous, are they more ridiculous than the old ones? Debatable. Measuring from models used to be a thing too so its no big deal, both 40k and WFB have always bounced between abstract and less abstract rules. We don't have enough information about the rules to condemn balance yet.

Remember at its core Warhammer is, as the tagline says, a game of fantasy battles. If we can still have fantasy battles it is still Warhammer. There were peopel saying that some of the armies in the new warhammer world were founded by survivors ffrom the old one so if that's true then the new setting is not completely new.

People need to relax and wait until we actually have the full picture before declaring the game dead. I mean this happens every edition lol.

odinsgrandson

07-03-2015, 08:27 AM

Some good points, Eldargal. A lot of the older names are pretty silly- this is far from the first time we've seen that from GW.

I do find the new setting to have some of the flair of the old setting, and I personally like the reversal they're setting up (ie- the forces of Order are invading the mortal realms where Chaos rules).

The Sigmarites do not fit in anywhere in the old game, but the Khornate warriors look just like old Khorne to me. And changing a few names to make the setting feel less like another Tolkien copy sounds like a good thing to me (instead of simply using 'Dwarfs' over 'Dwarves').

But the mechanics we've seen definitely create a game that will not feel like the old game at all, and I can't see how old veteran players would recognize the game as the one they're invested in.

As for balance and force building- I do worry that we have seen everything involved here, but I can hope that the new Warscrolls will show up and prove us all wrong.

I could see something interesting come out through those dataslate-like things (battalions?) because they create a need for balance between units and huge characters, and also make factions into a thing the rules support.

The fear is that we've seen everything we need to, and the hope is that we haven't. I guess we only have one more day to wait.

Deadlift

07-03-2015, 08:37 AM

C
People need to relax and wait until we actually have the full picture before declaring the game dead. I mean this happens every edition lol.

Couldn't agree more, I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing so far. I haven't touched WFB for 7 years at least. This has me excited and I will be ordering AoS tomorrow. Isn't that the point of this release ?

Mr Mystery

07-03-2015, 08:46 AM

Indeedy.

And as has been touched upon in the rumour thread, the wording of the 'press release' letter is....curious. Whilst far from definitive, it does suggest that this is simply one of various starter sets. For instance 'this starter set' instead of 'the starter set'.

Splitting hairs, quite possibly. But given normally reliable rumour mongers still maintaining there's a grander scaled game coming in August....

Cap'nSmurfs

07-03-2015, 08:58 AM

It's gonna be a big weekend. We've got all those Warscrolls to pore through!

eldargal

07-03-2015, 09:03 AM

I keep thinking I'll have to make a decision whether or not to buy the rulebook before I remember that no I won't lol.:rolleyes:

Xaric

07-03-2015, 10:11 AM

I think it's a bit rude posting this thread; there are a lot of people here who have been playing Fantasy for a good number of years only to have the entire game swept from under their feet and then given a game that doesn't resemble what they fell in love with. It has left a number of players and units with an uncertain future for 9th edition, hell from the lore leaks The Empire have yet to be mentioned yet everyone else has. If 40K was in this position there'd be as much upset as there is now.

At the moment I thinking of going back to 40k even though the abundance of formations has soured the game somewhat; as for my other friends who quit 40K to jump to Fantasy it looks like they will be quitting table top gaming for good if they can't keep an 8th edition group going.

Rude? to at least 1 person out of the billons of people on this planet so saying this is rude is pointless as it is not rude its a opinion and I believe in the change could be what the age represents a fresh start a new beginning everyone on the same page... what I am tired of people saying because there used to something and the new edition is out it change's core things so there like "I do not like this change because I need effort to learn the new structure there for its not warhammer because I have been playing for + years so I know better" Its warhammer because its a IP of games workshop regardless of how they change the setting...

If you think like papa nurgle and don't change things will stagnate and they will get boring and more people will end up selling there models and leaving
If you think like tzeentch and change you will keep being interesting because of the amount of new and fun things to do :D

Morgrim

07-04-2015, 06:30 AM

After playing through a few games of Age of Sigmar, it's very clear that it is no relation to WFB. It's not a new version. It's not a spiritual successor. It's a totally different style of game that happens to occur within the same setting, but should not be considered in the same genre. Which is sad.

I do think AoS has the potential to be a good game. I'm just not sure why GW felt they had to take away WFB as well.

Path Walker

07-04-2015, 06:32 AM

I think they've always been clear on that, from the name change to the fact they ended the entire Old World, this is a clean break, a new idea and a new game. This isn't Fantasy Battle, thats over and done with, this is Age of Sigmar, its a different thing.

BananaDynasty

07-04-2015, 09:03 AM

Word is, GW are going to be nice and give rules out for free for "all existing models."

People are upset (I feel legitimately) because the new game does not seem to resemble the game GW is replacing.

Should I consider myself odd that I found the previous edition of fantasy extremely boring? I can't be the only one.

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 09:13 AM

I'm loving the new game and the silly rules that are with some of the units. I'm also finding it very funny that people are rage quitting over AoS.

There's a guy at my local GW who essentially had a big strop over AoS and what did the Manager do? During his lunch break he went and bought the guy a Sympathy card :P

Katharon

07-04-2015, 09:27 AM

First off, I'm just going to post this:

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11027985_10153077036672881_3800465918740349312_n.j pg?oh=7aacbfdb55c51f809038f3a4180a7358&oe=56188DF3

Second, I have to say that while it may be amusing to see anyone get butthurt over something -- it's still a little crass to dance on the ashes of a game that, as has been said by others, now no longer exists and for all intents and purposes (from a GW point of view) will never be seen again; because by dancing that little jig of laughter, you're doing so upon an open wound in the hearts and minds of many gamers who devoted the past 25+ years to the hobby of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

WFB is gone and AoS is here to stay. I'm sure many gamers will react in adverse ways to this, especially considering that convoluted piece of swiss-cheese they call a rule set. But GW isn't likely to do much even if AoS fails. Their models will sell quite a bit, especially because (as my meme so clearly explained) WH40K fans will be buying up those Sigmarites (being called Sigmarines) faster than you can blink.

Lastly, like I said in a thread almost a month back, if I don't like AoS, I'll just stick with 8th.

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 09:58 AM

Meh don't care if people have spent tons of money on the hobby and spent many years playing it. I'm in the same boat however I like the new game and so I'm going to carry on laughing at anyone who has a hissy fit.

BananaDynasty

07-04-2015, 10:32 AM

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 10:34 AM

Heh, no.

Those of us who signed the card were expecting him to storm out of the store upon opening it, however he saved it till later... :(

Xaric

07-04-2015, 10:43 AM

Okay people lets have a look at the positives

First of all the war scrolls are available online for free this means if a model becomes stupidly over powered they can be changed quickly without needing to sell you a new book and you can spend that money on the plastic crack we all know and love.

Second all the rules are easy to understand no fiddling about with over complex stuff and also everyone knows the rules because there on the models war scroll to prevent the you know that guy who adds words into his army book praying you don't know his army to get a small handicap till you call him out yes this has happened to me a number of times when I was new.

Thirdly introduce a newbie to the game its the skill level of zombieside rules... that game took my sis who was completely new to pick it up and play it in 30 mins and had a blast.

Now give me some cons and please make them realistic not "well its not warhammer fantasy"

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 10:55 AM

Houghten

07-04-2015, 11:11 AM

Cons:

The use of Within throughout the rules. Target friendly unit within 12" - check with the measuring tape and it's exactly 12 inches away and so you can't use the ability/spell you were about to use as the friendly unit is not within 12".

So you're complaining that ranges are not 1/32" larger? Would that really make a difference?

Xaric

07-04-2015, 11:25 AM

Wait a sec are you complaining this game requires placement tactics? incorrectly placing your models is your own fault just because that oversized base does not really count anymore its automatically unfair? that's not a con that's standard in any game with measurement.

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 12:16 PM

It says within not up to so that means you can't do something unless it is within x range.

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 12:28 PM

So you don't mind having your entire army going backwards just because the furthest part of the model is the cloak which sticks 2 inches out the back?

Or to be exact, when you finish your movement you place your models facing backwards so that your shooting attacks and charge range is closer?

Houghten

07-04-2015, 01:19 PM

It says within not up to so that means you can't do something unless it is within x range.

I'm afraid you're going to have to explain your personal definitions at length before anybody outside your head understands why you think that's stupid. Possibly also your mathematical philosophies.

So you don't mind having your entire army going backwards just because the furthest part of the model is the cloak which sticks 2 inches out the back?

Or to be exact, when you finish your movement you place your models facing backwards so that your shooting attacks and charge range is closer?

To gain that increase in shooting and charge range, you have to lose 1.6 times as much move range, because the hem of the cloak moves as you rotate the model.

RGilbert26

07-04-2015, 02:02 PM

Well explain to me what within means then?

Okay so you don't turn at the end, you spend the entire game going backwards, yup makes sense.

Houghten

07-04-2015, 02:16 PM

Both "within" and "up to" can mean "less than" or "equal to or less than," depending on context. That's why we have mathematical operators, because unlike words they're unambiguous. However, since the (practical) difference between "less than" and "equal to" is the smallest gradation on the tape measure (1/32 of an inch, which is much, much smaller than the error you get just from holding the tape measure at an angle), there is no reason to overheat your brain about it. It's not that it'll never come up, but when it does, you'll never be able to be sure it did.

Why spend the entire game going backwards when you could just deploy a little further forwards in the first place? It's not like you're deploying wrt the base, after all. You're deploying wrt the whole model, just like all the other measurements.

Xaric

07-04-2015, 03:39 PM

and anyone who needs to relies on such a silly tactic out of the spite of a little advantage does not do it for fun but rather for a advantage in a competitive setting here's a idea just for you change your models to empty base's with a number corresponding model and play that way then you have boring game of base's imagination of the models... have fun?

RGilbert26

07-05-2015, 01:14 AM

Oh get off your high horse and don't make an assumption on how I would play the game.

Houghten

07-05-2015, 02:36 AM

Then why did you waste time and keystrokes listing it?

Xaric

07-05-2015, 03:38 AM

High horse if that what it is called I not one to care for such silly terminology lets put it this way looking for a nitch that would make your army look silly basically everyone running backwards is called looking for every tiny advantage to crush a person and is normally used in a competitive setting this is a game of toy soldiers it is intended for fun the rules they have provided are easy to understand make sense anyone can pick up the game whether a vet or a newbie and play this means more player more people interested and more games.

The main thing and this is me asking others to play with me turned them away was thease prime exsamples.

1) Entry cost yes buying 2 books and models for a small army would cost a small fortune so most people would simply go nope wanna know how GW fixed this free rules just buy the models and play.

2) Too much ruling way to complex to understand some even contradiction's within rules from core to army book or army book to army book and you need to learn them all unless vets would take advantage of new players the war scroll system removes this because how can you cheat a new person if there all there for everyone to see and its one paragraph of stuff also don't get me started about that grid I hate referring to whether a WS and rolling to determine a hit.

3) Game time it took freaking age's to rank and file every model because one would fall over or simply would not fit so you would have to re organize them again yes you can still do this but its not forced in this edition of the game so less set up time more game time just how it should be. also to add ranking and filing still has a advantage as there is no abiltys from what I can tell in this format that requires templates so more tighter army's equal more attacks for you.

4) this is to people saying it affects the fluff if you want the game to be more fluffy based with a narrative put house rules or restrictions in place and agree with the person your playing with.

At least I am coming up with positives rather then being a whiny child over change sorry but AOS is here to stay be like a human and adapt rather then living stagnant in the past.

Morgrim

07-05-2015, 09:30 PM

daboarder

07-05-2015, 10:17 PM

grimmas

07-06-2015, 02:28 AM

For balancing I reckon one needs to total up what a force costs to buy from the GW website (assume you are using the current models for any proxies/oldhammer stuff) and if the 2 forces cost roughly the same it'll be fairly balanced. Of course this will mean the older metal units will be a little pricey but most things are plastic now. This won't be perfect but I think it will provide a reasonable amount of balance, don't forget it is a GW game after all.

daboarder

07-07-2015, 05:43 AM

Shamelessly stolen, but I thought it adressed certain oft repeated statements well. It wont change who is repeating themselves ad nauseum, but its good info for everyone else to have.

OK Timmy, we need to talk. Let's go through the laundry list of your bad and wrong thoughts on the subject.

Age of Sigmar Lowers the Barrier to Entry!

AoS is not cheap. The starter set is £75, £10 more expensive than Dark Vengeance. Retributor Armor Spray costs £17 for a can. The paint set of GW's website to paint either the Order or Chaos models (just one side mind you, not both) costs £51 each. That's £143 just to get half the models painted, and that's without glue (£4.30), clippers (£20!) and carrying case (£85) which brings it up to £252 if you purchased everything from a GW store. This is what GW employees are trying to "up-sell" to new customers if they express an interest in Age of Sigmar. Little Timmy's mother better get out her credit card! She'll get +3 to humiliation if she pretends to ride a horse while putting up her home as collateral.

If Warhammer was too expensive, then that was a result of GW's policies. Replacing 16-man infantry regiment sets with smaller 10-man ones so that you have to buy every box multiple times (why not make 20-25 man sets?). Inflation busting price increases year on year. Upping the game scale over time. It's true that Warhammer became considerably more expensive over time and who's fault was that? GW deliberately pursues a strategy of high prices. It's all plastic in cardboard boxes, not diamond-encrusted turds of the gods of Olympus.

Some people seem to think that there's an arbitrary value to the gobs of plastic we call miniatures but there isn't. What I mean to say is, GW could put out a 20-man boxed set of Empire Halberdiers for more or less the same price as a 5-man box of Sigmarines. Just because it's 5 models vs 20 doesn't mean that it costs GW four times as much to produce. Far from it. They aren't really lowering costs, Timmy! You need to see past the propaganda. Sigmarite can't melt steel beams, you little sheeple. The destruction of Warhammer was an inside job.

Warhammer was too Complex!

If that's the case, then AoS is way too simplistic. It's possible for a simple game to be enjoyable and interesting but AoS is an example of how to screw it all up. Just making the game simpler, in itself, does not necessarily cater to a wider audience. The game actually has to be interesting and worthwhile on it's own merits or it doesn't matter how easy it is to get into to; people will be in and out in short order. Ideally, Age of Sigmar would be easy to learn and hard to master. Novices could derive enjoyment while the game gradually gave up it's secrets as they developed. But AoS is such a mind-numbingly simple game that it's hard to see how it can sustain that sort of interest. The game is easy to learn and easy to master, there won't be anything new to say about AoS tactics after a month. You basically just move miniatures into the middle of the board and then roll dice until the game ends.

Since there's no balance or points costs there isn't much to think about when you aren't playing the game. I should admit that I often spent as much time writing army lists as a fun activity in itself as actually playing the game or painting miniatures. The desire to see my own take on an army's tactics on the tabletop captured my attention in a way that few games do; it was a powerful aspect of the hobby. Nobody will have these thoughts about Age of Sigmar. It won't occupy people's imaginations for any significant length of time. You just roll dice.

Things had to change!

Perhaps, Timmy, but things didn't necessarily have to change in this manner. GW had lots of options to renew Warhammer. To say that "something needs to be done, this is something, therefore it is good" is not a very convincing defence of GW's practices. this isn't even Warhammer anymore. To "lower the barrier to entry" there has to be something to enter. This is it. There is no 9th edition. GW no longer makes a miniature game based on ranked models fighting army battles. Age of Sigmar is a skirmish-level game; it's not an entry point to Warhammer but an entirely separate entity in it's own right. Games Workshop didn't have to destroy Warhammer Fantasy Battles to create a skirmish game. They could have created AoS as a parralel product, they could have licensed the rights to somebody else and let them do Warhammer. Instead they burned down the house and wrecked their IP and game system in order to replace it wholesale with a subtantially different product. It's like if Apple suddenly decided to stop selling desktop computers, but disingenuously pretended that iPhones are the successors to desktops and you should just "move on" and "accept change". People who actually want desktops for things you can't do on an IPhone (like artists) would not be impressed with that sort of PR garbage and neither should you, Timmy. I know that you are a loyal customer of GW, the Fifth Reich, but are you really this gullible? I think we both know the sad answer to that question. You might care about Games Workshop but they don't care about you. It's interesting to note how rudely and maliciously GW have handled the whole affair, it's almost like they are conducting a social experiment in how badly they can mistreat their customers before they revolt. You shouldn't be a doormat to an uncaring business, Timmy, it humiliates and demeans you when you let them treat you this way.

It's better than GW dumping fantasy altogether

I mean, is it, really? Their vandalism of the setting is extensive at this point. Few of the original creators of Warhammer had a hand in this. The events of the End Times are corrupted by the needs of Age of Sigmar: if they were really writing a Warhammer ending and not a prelude to Age of Sigmar then surely a lot of nonenseical things would never have been written into it. It's little more than rubbish fan-fiction at this point. If I had the choice I'd rather than GW just ditched Fantasy altogether without ever doing AoS or the End Times since then I'd always have my imagination about what might have happened. They took that from me, and you, in the name of pushing fantasy Space Marines. A profound betrayal by the suits at GW. And in all but name they have dumped Fantasy altogether.

We've purged our community of the Jews competitive players!

In case you didn't notice Timmy, there's been some defensive sniping about "WAAC" players who were supposedly ruining the community. People who like to play competitively have been stormcast as villains to justify GW's dumbing down of the game. It's a shame that some people are treating jilted members of the Warhammer community as scapegoats for the debacle of GW's handling of it's business. I can't really say that I thought you were better than that, Timmy, but nonetheless I'm very disappointed in you. I have never attended a Warhammer tournament, but nonetheless I think you should stop pretending that competitive players are somehow holding back the community. They are the victims here who have practically been left without a game to play as have we all. This is called victim-blaming, Timmy.

Every army is supported!

If you look behind GW's spin-doctoring it's more fair to say that every army has been squatted. The "War Scrolls" (trademarked, Timmy) released for existing models is all they are going to get. Here's what a GW rep had to say:

He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again.

He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again.
GW are releasing new armies for a different game which will look substantially different to existing range. Your army is for all intents and purposes obsolete. It's nice that GW went to the trouble of making rules for legacy armies (that's what your miniature collection now is), although they added some stupid rules to make you feel stupid if you try to play with them in public. You miniatures will not fit aesthetically with new releases. Your army is no longer supported and that PDF on the GW website is the last thing you'll ever get from them.

You see, Timmy, for legal reasons Games Workshop wants to "protect it's IP"; however Warhammer is based on themes derived from history and popular culture meaning that most of it's existing range of miniatures and background materiel can be copied by competing miniature lines. Arguably, the derivative nature of Warhammer is an intrinsic part of it's appeal; it's a well executed pastiche that developed it's own strong character. Citadel Miniatures are jewel like objects of magic and wonder, so one then wonders why Games Workshop should worry so much about competition that they feel the need to ditch everything, but that's what they are doing. It's not a sword, Timmy, it's a Nounverb Sword! IT'S TRADEMARKED, TIMMY. Only GW can sell you an authentic Nounverb Sword.

Warhammer is going in a new creative direction!

Warhammer is now free from 30 years of built-up background materiel. Let's see how the Games Workshop Studio has used their newfound creative freedom to breathe new life into the Warhammer franchise (Warhammer is a trademark, Timmy, unless you are talking about Warhammer, the medieval weapon. Perhaps one day those can be trademarked by GW too). Gee golly gosh, am I excited to see what wondrous new vistas of fantasy we can all escape into together.

Timmy, behold the STORMCAST ETERNALS THUNDERSTRIKE BROTHERHOOD: VANDUS HAMMERHAND, ANACTOS SKYHELM LORD OF THE SKYHOST, GREAT DRAKE DRACOTHION

Also behold the GORBLADE WARBAND: BLOODSECRATORS, BLOODSTOKERS, BLOOD WARRIORS, BLOODREAVERS (there is a profound difference between a Blood Warrior and a Bloodreaver, Timmy, you racist!), SKULDRAK "THE" KORGORATH, THREX SKULLBRAND OF THE GORETIDE

Let's look them in more detail: "...THE STORMHOSTS OF THE STORMCAST ARE MANIFOLD AND GLORIOUS..." OK then.

This is a professional adult writer at Games Workshop utilizing the creative freedom offered by the destruction of the Warhammer world we all know and loved. Volkmar died for our sins and this is what we got out of it. But let's not just stop with the writing, Warhammer is also about the art which inspired us to imagine what sort of world these people live in. It's only get worse inside the AoS booklet, which is just filled with images of the miniatures for the most part. There's not a huge amount of text so it's almost a glorified picture book except it's basically the same picture a hundred times. Let's look at the box cover:
http://s16.postimg.org/jp8puubgl/ageofsigmar_00.jpg

What you can see here is a straightforward visual depiction of the miniatures; nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure I'd even really call this art. It's one step above being a life drawing of the miniatures. It's simply a depiction of the product. There's no life or soul to this image.

I'll show you the box art that got me into Warhammer: http://s21.postimg.org/4op2i2yo7/Fifth_ed.jpg
I think this is a more interesting piece, it's not just McMusclemountains going at it, it's what appears to be a medieval knight fighting Aztec lizards. The strange colours in the background add more of a sense of weirdness to proceedings. The horse has a cool looking helmet, the bug-eyed armour really stood out to me for some reason. The combination of high fantasy with authentic elements grabbed me, the artist knew enough about medieval horses to give it that obscure helmet in a silly image of knights fighting lizardmen. It has character. As a youngster it stimulated my imagination. I don't think the Age of Sigmar art will stimulate the imagination of a child today because there's nothing going on in it, it's just a depiction of the miniatures fighting. The written materiel just talks about the bloodmonglers fightcrushing the stormhammers in a gorestorm battle. "These guys hit these other guys" is the only thing that Age of Sigmar is trying to say to us. So where's the creativity then, Timmy, you bloodmongler?

Having freed themselves of the bonds of the past, all that the contemporary GW design studio has shown is that they are a pale shadow of their predecessors. Freedom isn't free, Timmy.
I haven't even mentioned that the Stormwhatever are literally fantasy Space Marines, but somehow more generic and boring. That is their raison d'être. This isn't a creative decision, it's a matter of crude reductive logic: 40k sells more than Fantasy, 40k has Space Marines, therefore Fantasy should have Space Marines. Every time you look at a stormongler you are looking at 35mm of pure plastic cynicism.

I bought an entire (2000pts) Warhammer army from GW during the End Times campaign from their website because I like the Nagash book and I thought they were trying to fix Fantasy, and they gave me no indication at all that they were about to end the game and the setting for all intents and purposes. I will never spend any money on GW again because they let me buy that Warhammer army when they already knew full well that they were squatting the system.

-mudkip

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 06:01 AM

Imagine being the type of person that gets so mad about fantasy space barbies that they write all that nonsense.

Mr Mystery

07-07-2015, 06:08 AM

Since cons for AoS were requested: how the frick do you balance this thing? My LGS was having nicely balanced games when using the two box set forces, but as soon as we tried using other armies everything fell apart. It is really, really hard to judge what a fair and fun match up is going to be. Sure, WFB had some issues with balance, but at least the points system got the forces within the same ballpark.

Experience.

It strikes me that AoS is very much geared towards community gaming, as opposed to more random pick ups. Silly little stuff (which like all rules, is just an option for you and your opponent at the end of the day) like have a bonus if you won your last game points to this.

Me, I have a fairly stable gaming circle. We've known each other for years, and when there's a newcomer, they're welcomed into it and treated the same.

Remember, this is early, early days. The rules have been officially available for but 4 days. Give it a decent crack at the whip. Me, I like the feel of it. It's not 9th Edition, and it's lacking much of what I really appreciated in Warhammer's previous incarnations. But it still has a lot to interest me.

Auticus

07-07-2015, 06:30 AM

Experience.

It strikes me that AoS is very much geared towards community gaming, as opposed to more random pick ups. Silly little stuff (which like all rules, is just an option for you and your opponent at the end of the day) like have a bonus if you won your last game points to this.

Me, I have a fairly stable gaming circle. We've known each other for years, and when there's a newcomer, they're welcomed into it and treated the same.

Remember, this is early, early days. The rules have been officially available for but 4 days. Give it a decent crack at the whip. Me, I like the feel of it. It's not 9th Edition, and it's lacking much of what I really appreciated in Warhammer's previous incarnations. But it still has a lot to interest me.

That is exactly what its intention is. The people that are affected the most are the ones that love pick up games or tournament games. Those are the most vocal negative voices in this change over.

As for points, the community is already at work solving this. I am an event organizer and I like to run public campaigns, so I need a point system for that to work properly without having to break up fights between overly competitive people doing things that overly competitive people do (and while I'm positive right now, I do acknowledge that it takes no effort to break 40k and even less to break AoS).

We have a system going up for playtest hopefully by end of the week that I'll gladly share. Its more of a saga or warmachine point system, so its a lot simpler than the 2000 point system we are all used to.

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 06:55 AM

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 07:01 AM

daboarder

07-07-2015, 07:10 AM

I also like the way he compares the rules for a game changing to the jewish holocaust. Yes, surely the plight of the poor competitive gamer is comparable to the attempt to systematically slaughter an entire people.

you're right, it was in poor taste, I had been tempted to put a disclaimer in there that I believe that part was over the top.

- - - Updated - - -

Imagine being the type of person that gets so mad about fantasy space barbies that they write all that nonsense.

Imagine being the type of person that gets so mad about fantasy space barbies that they rage on the internet about the type of person that gets so mad about fantasy space barbies.......:rolleyes: stay classy path ;)

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 07:12 AM

Just a tad.

Anyway, what I'm most interested in for AoS if the unit synergy, the Keywords really let you do some cool stuff when considering army design, I'm currently enjoying basing a Nurgle Warriors of Chaos army around a central unit of Blight Kings and a Nurgle Lord, tough to kill and can heal other Nurgle units, including the Marked warriors, slowly grinding over the opposition, sounds perfectly Nurgly to me.

daboarder

07-07-2015, 07:13 AM

Al Shut

07-07-2015, 07:20 AM

how the frick do you balance this thing?

Experience.

But isn't it supposed to attract lots of new, i.e. inexperienced, players?

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 07:21 AM

to be fair, if you were in this hobby during the storm of chaos and the 13th black crusade world events, well you would be forgiven for being highly skeptical of claims GW makes regarding the fate of the setting, one merely needs to look at the skepticism posted by people (mystery included ironically) during the rumours of End times to understand

I was there for both, neither time did they say it was the end of the setting, just that there would be a big change.Granted that never manifested.

Mr Mystery

07-07-2015, 07:23 AM

And now they've done big change - HOW VERY EFFING DARE THEY.

Not that the serial whiners just like to whine. Not at all.

daboarder

07-07-2015, 07:25 AM

I was there for both, neither time did they say it was the end of the setting, just that there would be a big change.Granted that never manifested.

never meant to imply you weren't just pointing out how the use of hyperbole is common by GW (and given the settings thats not really a bad thing)

edit: its also worht noting that "end times" and or moving hte setting forward doesnt necessitate the squating of all the old armies, that was a conscious decision by GW to try and force people to buy whole new armies as per Harry's original rumours

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 07:29 AM

never meant to imply you weren't just pointing out how the use of hyperbole is common by GW (and given the settings thats not really a bad thing)

I can see it from both angles to be honest. On the one hand, GW could (and should) have been even clearer with their intentions, to avoid this scenario. But on the other, they have shareholders to answer to and have to keep sales going. How many of us would have stopped buying entirely during the End Time period, just in case we didn't like what was next? I know i would of - and in fact did the minute i found out the planet was destroyed. The White Dwarf with the Sigmarine is the first Fantasy product i've bought since the last page of Archaeon was leaked.

daboarder

07-07-2015, 07:32 AM

I can see it from both angles to be honest. On the one hand, GW could (and should) have been even clearer with their intentions, to avoid this scenario. But on the other, they have shareholders to answer to and have to keep sales going. How many of us would have stopped buying entirely during the End Time period, just in case we didn't like what was next? I know i would of - and in fact did the minute i found out the planet was destroyed. The White Dwarf with the Sigmarine is the first Fantasy product i've bought since the last page of Archaeon was leaked.

and thats a good point but brings us to the edit I made above.

what it really boils down to is that GW has kinda priced themselves to the point that they are required to FORCE sales by changing the game, it used to be that people bought new armies because they had a million and 1 potential themes to pull from the background, but then the game got to expensive so everyone stopped having multiple armies (even within the same faction, I know people with 4 CSM armies, one for each god) that kind of shift in community army design was always inevitably going to lead to the situation where GW could no longer shift models. Not because people wont buy, but because the expense of ANOTHER army was to much. Hence the current predicament really.

Ill do something here and use an ancedote: its not perfedct but it gets the idea across.

Im currently playing infinty, and going into the game I told myself that I would only have the 1 force, and a limited one at that.

That lasted about a month, ive since expanded into my second, wiht a 3rd and potentially 4th on the way, why? its because I can build an army from small bits of my disposable income very quickly without feeling like the money is going to waste and not getting me anywhere. I have considered the same in 40k in recent years but each time I tally up the cost of said army and the result for what I am getting is a resounding no.

now 40k has more miniatures, and the point isnt about the cost of each mini, its about the cost of each mini relative to the number required for the game. and thats the part GW has out of whack

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 07:37 AM

and thats a good point but brings us to the edit I made above.

what it really boils down to is that GW has kinda priced themselves to the point that they are required to FORCE sales by changing the game, it used to be that people bought new armies because they had a million and 1 potential themes to pull from the background, but then the game got to expensive so everyone stopped having multiple armies (even within the same faction, I know people with 4 CSM armies, one for each god) that kind of shift in community army design was always inevitably going to lead to the situation where GW could no longer shift models. Not because people wont buy, but because the expense of ANOTHER army was to much. Hence the current predicament really.

Which is why i'm not convinced that AoS will succeed in the long run. Launching a new game without changing the prices and the way they market won't achieve the turn around they want. There are certainly positives about AoS. I actually like the rules, i like the abandoning of points in favour of narrative and players using their self control, i won't shed a single tear that the overly competitive elements of the playerbase are leaving the hobby.
But without addressing the core problems with GW, it's not going to work. As i said fairly often before i abandoned the cess pit that Warseer has become, when the makers of adult sex toys have more of a social media presence than you do, your business model needs to change.

daboarder

07-07-2015, 07:40 AM

Which is why i'm not convinced that AoS will succeed in the long run. Launching a new game without changing the prices and the way they market won't achieve the turn around they want. There are certainly positives about AoS. I actually like the rules, i like the abandoning of points in favour of narrative and players using their self control, i won't shed a single tear that the overly competitive elements of the playerbase are leaving the hobby.
But without addressing the core problems with GW, it's not going to work. As i said fairly often before i abandoned the cess pit that Warseer has become, when the makers of adult sex toys have more of a social media presence than you do, your business model needs to change.

yup, its so sad that GW takes it one step further, instead of just ignoring the community they treat us as hostiles. the imfamous incident with eddy is just another in the long line of contempt GW shows for communication really

whenever they generate some goodwill from the community someone higher up seems to go out of their way to deliberately smother it.....so bizzarre

Erik Setzer

07-07-2015, 08:09 AM

Experience.

It strikes me that AoS is very much geared towards community gaming, as opposed to more random pick ups. Silly little stuff (which like all rules, is just an option for you and your opponent at the end of the day) like have a bonus if you won your last game points to this.

Me, I have a fairly stable gaming circle. We've known each other for years, and when there's a newcomer, they're welcomed into it and treated the same.

That makes no sense.

They blow up the game and release a new game, and need to get new players into it to revitalize the fantasy side of their business. So to attract NEW players, they release a set of rules that needs people to already be in an established group with experience? And they've now admitted they made the rules for existing armies silly in order to discourage public play and keep the experienced players out of public sight, so where do these new players find the other people with experience, who will then have to teach them so that they become the necessary level of experienced?

You can't create a rule set that has to be defended with "but it's meant to be played with friends and experienced players!" and then say you're trying to get in new blood. Nor can you claim the veteran players, who would be needed for that scenario, are being "catered" to while they're actively being mocked and encouraged to be "out of sight, out of mind."

Even if the game survives and magically gets a hundred times better in a year's time, this is a disastrous launch for a new game, and shows how out of touch GW got and how little they know about the people they're trying to sell to.

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 08:12 AM

Imagine being the type of person that gets so mad about fantasy space barbies that they rage on the internet about the type of person that gets so mad about fantasy space barbies.......:rolleyes: stay classy path ;)

Not sure laughing at idiots counts as raging to be fair. I am a regular contributor Rage of Sigmar though.

But, for example; i've not written a 2000 word diatribe about how a game has changed because the company doesn't want my business any more and so that is persecution on a level with 6 million dead jews

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 08:14 AM

You can't create a rule set that has to be defended with "but it's meant to be played with friends and experienced players!" and then say you're trying to get in new blood. Nor can you claim the veteran players, who would be needed for that scenario, are being "catered" to while they're actively being mocked and encouraged to be "out of sight, out of mind."

Where has GW actively mocked anyone or told them to be "out of sight, out of mind"? If you're referring to the Fakeit thing, that's been deliberately twisted. The rep said the funny rules are for veterans, who are more likely to be playing in more private locales with friends so are more likely to be daft. That's since been twisted to "They put silly rules in so veterans would have to play in private".

Even if the game survives and magically gets a hundred times better in a year's time, this is a disastrous launch for a new game, and shows how out of touch GW got and how little they know about the people they're trying to sell to.

From what i've seen the starter set has done pretty well with pre-orders.

Erik Setzer

07-07-2015, 08:14 AM

Somewhere in that wall of text that was quoted was something about buying a 2000 point army because they had no clue the game was going to change. Sorry, but it was called The End Times. It said on the books from the very start that this was the end of the Warhammer world.

I'm not thrilled about the setting change, or the move to AoS and i make no secret of that. But i think it's better to criticize GW for things they have actually done.

Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror were similarly suggested as "end-time scenarios."

And just because the final battle happens, doesn't mean the whole game would be blown up and thrown aside.

They didn't warn people of what was coming because then it'd be harder to sell the ET books (about $300-$400 worth of books) and they couldn't get people to snag armies or new units or anything. When the rumors of a completely new game or even just a totally new system really started picking up steam, a lot of people decided to stop buying anything for Warhammer. Even now, a lot of people are shy on buying anything, because GW is saying, "Oh, sure, you can play with existing stuff, and buy all this stuff here...", while it now seems the intent is to replace all those armies (and at that point it's likely former armies will go the way of things like WFB's Dogs of War, Kislevites, Dwarf Slayers, etc., or 40K's Kult of Speed, Feral Orks, Kroot Mercs, etc.).

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 08:16 AM

That makes no sense.

They blow up the game and release a new game, and need to get new players into it to revitalize the fantasy side of their business. So to attract NEW players, they release a set of rules that needs people to already be in an established group with experience? And they've now admitted they made the rules for existing armies silly in order to discourage public play and keep the experienced players out of public sight, so where do these new players find the other people with experience, who will then have to teach them so that they become the necessary level of experienced?

You can't create a rule set that has to be defended with "but it's meant to be played with friends and experienced players!" and then say you're trying to get in new blood. Nor can you claim the veteran players, who would be needed for that scenario, are being "catered" to while they're actively being mocked and encouraged to be "out of sight, out of mind."

Even if the game survives and magically gets a hundred times better in a year's time, this is a disastrous launch for a new game, and shows how out of touch GW got and how little they know about the people they're trying to sell to.

Hahaha, no, the experience is gained while playing in a Beginners group at a local GW or hobby story, learning with your friends how to play the game as you go.

They don't really care about existing Fantasy players all that much, they stopped buying years ago which is why they had to change this up, the game wasn't suitable for new players and the old players weren't dropping enough money. Now they can teach a new generation of hobbyists to play narrative wargames for the fun of playing with a system that makes a competitive game unfeasible.

I always love how when the game requires some sort of positive social interaction, you break down and can't possibly comprehend it.

Erik Setzer

07-07-2015, 08:18 AM

And now they've done big change - HOW VERY EFFING DARE THEY.

Not that the serial whiners just like to whine. Not at all.

"Big change" would have suggested a shift in story, like how WFRP did a nice job with the post-SoC world, and GW could have shaken things up. Instead Warhammer is GONE. That world is GONE. This isn't "change." It's "your game is gone, here's a new game in a new setting, either play it or GTFO."

Also, I get that you like to whine about people making valid points that aren't glowingly positive about your dear Games Workshop, but you don't have to remind us about that.

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 08:19 AM

Where has GW actively mocked anyone or told them to be "out of sight, out of mind"? If you're referring to the Fakeit thing, that's been deliberately twisted. The rep said the funny rules are for veterans, who are more likely to be playing in more private locales with friends so are more likely to be daft. That's since been twisted to "They put silly rules in so veterans would have to play in private".

It was someone who was talking to a WHW Staffer and was obviously annoyed at the changes and so reported back everything in a pretty negative light, yeah. Not a direct quote from GW, as its been reported on clickbait sites, but a second hand source with obvious bias.

From what i've seen the starter set has done pretty well with pre-orders.

Very well, succeeded their expectations well. People who have played the game for what it is are really enjoying it.

Erik Setzer

07-07-2015, 08:29 AM

Well, I haven't heard anything from GW officially, so I'll take the word of someone relaying what they heard at an event. I doubt the person is "twisting" it, and it sounds bad, and certainly explains it. Those rules are NOT there for our enjoyment. Never mind the ones like "grow a beard" which screw over female gamers or even male gamers who can't grow a beard for whatever reason (puberty, genetics, job, etc.). The other ones just seem so asinine. The local GW gaming club is actually making up a rule to just dice off in those situations, because they're so silly that hardly anyone will want to do them. So no, they weren't put there for the veteran players to enjoy, and the more of them I read, the more I wondered if AoS was GW actively trolling the market... until I realized such rules were missing from the new stuff, so it's really just trolling existing players. And I'll get my +2" charge on Black Orcs because I modeled the musician, not because I shout "Waaagh!" in a crowded game store repeatedly (something that's frowned on even at a GW store where they encourage it once or twice for special events). Do you really think that's fun? I'd like to do a repeat of Grimgor's old Black Orc centered army, and I have the Black Orcs to do it. So I put six units of Black Orcs on the table, and if I'm charging with all of them, I shout "Waaagh!" six times? And you think that was done to be an enjoyable experience, rather than a joke (that feels like a child came up with the idea)?

Auticus

07-07-2015, 08:34 AM

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 08:44 AM

It was someone who was talking to a WHW Staffer and was obviously annoyed at the changes and so reported back everything in a pretty negative light, yeah. Not a direct quote from GW, as its been reported on clickbait sites, but a second hand source with obvious bias.

It's not even really there in the supposed report of said conversation. They said the rep said that the silly rules were for vets because they are more likely to be playing in private with friends. That's a very different thing to what's being claimed, that they introduced silly rules so vets would be forced to play in private.

If people don't like the silly rules, don't use them. The entire aim of AoS's rules seems to be allowing the players to play the game how they want to play it.

Like i said earlier, there are legitimate reasons to be annoyed with GW, without having to make new ones up.

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 08:51 AM

As I noted in the article on the front page - this stuff doesn't bother me because I grew up with these type of rules and 3rd edition Warhammer was exactly these kind of rules.

Back in the late 80s everyone (adults included) had a great time.

Today - its all serious business.

So many people have been talking about how Warhammer going means that they don't have a serious tactical wargame, as if that was what Warhammer ever was. Nerds thinking they're Sun Tzu is always hilarious.

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 09:05 AM

C

Couldn't agree more, I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing so far. I haven't touched WFB for 7 years at least. This has me excited and I will be ordering AoS tomorrow. Isn't that the point of this release ?

Absolutely! I've been on a 15 year break from playing much fantasy although I've gathered a lot of the new kits just because the models are cool. I'll be grabbing the starter as the models are super easy to cross to 40k if need be... but I'll be waiting on the rumored future 'balancing mechanic' before I get to excited over game play.

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 09:37 AM

Cons:

The use of Within throughout the rules. Target friendly unit within 12" - check with the measuring tape and it's exactly 12 inches away and so you can't use the ability/spell you were about to use as the friendly unit is not within 12".

Measuring from the model not the base, check to see how far away you are from enemy - 10", roll dice and get 9". Look at unit and then notice that if you had turned them so that their weapon which is 2" over the base was pointing towards the enemy unit you wanted to charge and discover you would have successfully made the charge.

Measuring from the model has so far been the single most annoying aspect of these rules. Especially since I suspect the mechanic comes from some ill-fated attempt to pacify square basers. Just agree with your opponent to measure everything from the base and it flows much smoother. As for within, well it shouldn't come up as an issue as the difference between 12" and 11.999" isn't even perceptible, so just use 12" as the benchmark. Even as an American, I really wish they just wrote the rules in metric. Inches are flat out stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

But isn't it supposed to attract lots of new, i.e. inexperienced, players?

Can always attract the newbs with promises of free ale I suppose.

- - - Updated - - -

Which is why i'm not convinced that AoS will succeed in the long run. Launching a new game without changing the prices and the way they market won't achieve the turn around they want. There are certainly positives about AoS. I actually like the rules, i like the abandoning of points in favour of narrative and players using their self control, i won't shed a single tear that the overly competitive elements of the playerbase are leaving the hobby.
But without addressing the core problems with GW, it's not going to work. As i said fairly often before i abandoned the cess pit that Warseer has become, when the makers of adult sex toys have more of a social media presence than you do, your business model needs to change.

Sadly one need not be overly competitive to accidentally break AoS or 40k at the moment. I hope the so called balancing mechanism proves to be true and actually provides some semblance of order to an otherwise Chaotic system.

- - - Updated - - -

Hahaha, no, the experience is gained while playing in a Beginners group at a local GW or hobby story, learning with your friends how to play the game as you go.

They don't really care about existing Fantasy players all that much, they stopped buying years ago which is why they had to change this up, the game wasn't suitable for new players and the old players weren't dropping enough money. Now they can teach a new generation of hobbyists to play narrative wargames for the fun of playing with a system that makes a competitive game unfeasible.

I always love how when the game requires some sort of positive social interaction, you break down and can't possibly comprehend it.

Have to agree. WFB players were just not buying enough anymore and the game was viewed as too much of a time and $ investment to attract the necessary new blood. And lest anyone forget, once upon a time GW had no customers for the games and had to build it from all new players. Back then we had games like Adeptus Titanicus, RT and the WFB early editions that were all wildly unbalanced, often silly and loads of fun regardless. Simpler times I guess.

- - - Updated - - -

Back in the late 80s everyone (adults included) had a great time.

Today - its all serious business.

All business and no soul...

Auticus

07-07-2015, 09:42 AM

I think part of that is rooted in Magic: The Gathering turning into a professional game. People have wanted that with a wargame since tournaments became a thing. Professional wargame circuits would not have silly rules and professional game circuits are very serious business.

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 09:45 AM

Path Walker

07-07-2015, 09:55 AM

I blame you americans getting hold of it, with your competitive attitudes, Brits should be far too embarrassed to try and do something as unsporting as winning a thing. How gauche.

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 09:59 AM

It's not our fault! Competition is literally conditioned into us from the day we enter the school doors. Cooperative play is just so un-American. :p

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 10:59 AM

I blame you americans getting hold of it, with your competitive attitudes, Brits should be far too embarrassed to try and do something as unsporting as winning a thing. How gauche.

There's definitely a cultural thing going on. My friends and i saw the silly rules and thought "Ha! That's hilarious" whereas the American response seems to be "Silly rules? Game over man! Game over!".

Auticus

07-07-2015, 11:17 AM

Ah, kind of like the difference between sandlot football vs the professional, make a living game.

Precisely this. THere have been many attempts to form a national circuit that is "professional" but the community always gets in its own way (mainly in its politics - arguing over who gets to be in charge and what ruleset to use kind of things). Really the only way a professional warhammer circuit could exist is if GW made it so and they won't do that.

However thats diverging from topic. :D

Moving more towards silly rules and loose RPG framework takes us further from ever having warhammer being "professional".

Now I will also caveat that not every competitive player wants professional warhammer or is even a goal, but it does remove the serious nature of serious competition from it, which is similar in vein.

While not universal I note that the majority of people that are really angry over Age of Sigmar are also pretty serious competitive type players (that doesn't mean they go to tournaments, but they play the game in a serious manner and want serious rules and competitive framework in place) whereas the people that aren't as bothered are less so.

Mr Mystery

07-07-2015, 12:49 PM

There's definitely a cultural thing going on. My friends and i saw the silly rules and thought "Ha! That's hilarious" whereas the American response seems to be "Silly rules? Game over man! Game over!".

You mean you don't want to play a game where your pride is on the line every single time and it's all super serious all the time???

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130410175335/glee/images/2/20/HowDareYou.gif

- - - Updated - - -

One of these has adopted the feel of AoS. The other is the internet.

http://blinkfacts.com/images/15/April/10/0c0c5943e1cd1204efb7bcc9131de8d4.jpeg

Please note. Relative genders in pic not actually relevant.

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 01:08 PM

Some insightful thoughts on the game from an actual Game Designer. Design fans will recognize Mr. Tuomas Pirinen. :)

Tuomas Pirinen, Brutal Deluxe Game Design
3 hrs • Edited •

WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION
Disclaimer: all the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.
OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.

OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY
I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar, and the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.
Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.
I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps a fewer gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.
All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Wealthy, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is tactic works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers.
To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about: the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.

MINIATURES
When it comes to miniature sculpting, the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limits them, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.
Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do that that modern western design vibe. As always, a matter of taste.

THE RULES
The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.
In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.
And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.
All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.

THE WARHAMMER WORLD
I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.
I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.

CLOSING THOUGHTS
As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming.
Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.

(Full link with responses)
https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1620250038223421?comment_id=1620296701552088&notif_t=share_reply

Erik Setzer

07-07-2015, 01:11 PM

Oh? It's an "American thing?" So when did Games Workshop become American?

They stripped all of the fun gameplay rules (that involved fun on the table, not "fun" as in me having to grow a beard, hold a beer, stand on one leg, look in a mirror, and whisper "war" to my model) from the Orks heading into 3rd edition, and have barely put any back in. They killed off an entire race in 40K claiming they were "too silly" (and even the name can't be considered that silly next to Stormcast Eternal Thunderstrike Brotherhood, or Bloodsecrators, or Skarr Bloodwrath and the Wrathmongers).

They did their best to make their games "super-serious," and won't put that stuff in the new AoS armies they want to sell to people as they get rid of the last vestiges of Warhammer.

But I guess it's okay if they remove all the fun stuff that wasn't just mindless distractions thought up by someone's killed, eh?

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 01:35 PM

SQUATS!!!

(erm.... sorry 'bout that, slipped right out)

Spider-pope

07-07-2015, 03:14 PM

daboarder

07-07-2015, 04:32 PM

Nice post Gamer

Just wanted to comment on one thing,

Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming.
Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.

This is the wrong way round after a fashion, consistently I've seen posters who have expressed disappointment set upon by those who are extremely aggressive and vocal in the support for this game, the very title of this thread gives that impression (and the lack of a thread attacking anyone who likes AoS). Its what I expect from these particular members of the forum of course but it should still be pointed out. Its not everyone who like the game, but the minority within that group.

edit: On another note, its interesting in that this might actually spur me to make some actual fantasy releases before the lines go dead, i've always wanted a Wood Elf army and once KOW2 drops for free I'll be writing up a list and seeing what I can get second hand off ebay to make that list. then I'll either play 8th, mordheim or KOW.

Cap'nSmurfs

07-07-2015, 04:32 PM

"They killed off an entire race in 40K claiming they were "too silly""

That was about twenty years ago. Things change.

Oh, and thanks for posting that! I always liked Tuomas.

daboarder

07-07-2015, 04:36 PM

"They killed off an entire race in 40K claiming they were "too silly""

That was about twenty years ago. Things change.

I dont think GW is going to keep the "fun" rules for very long, as mentioned by their representatives they are only for the old factions, all the new factions will have super serious rules.

So they haven't changed, the old armies have just found themselves in literally the same position as the squats all those years ago.

Cap'nSmurfs

07-07-2015, 05:29 PM

Change isn't an on-off switch, the culture of the company and their product has shifted several times just in my own experience with it.

40kGamer

07-07-2015, 06:01 PM

Nice post Gamer

Just wanted to comment on one thing,

This is the wrong way round after a fashion, consistently I've seen posters who have expressed disappointment set upon by those who are extremely aggressive and vocal in the support for this game, the very title of this thread gives that impression (and the lack of a thread attacking anyone who likes AoS). Its what I expect from these particular members of the forum of course but it should still be pointed out. Its not everyone who like the game, but the minority within that group.

edit: On another note, its interesting in that this might actually spur me to make some actual fantasy releases before the lines go dead, i've always wanted a Wood Elf army and once KOW2 drops for free I'll be writing up a list and seeing what I can get second hand off ebay to make that list. then I'll either play 8th, mordheim or KOW.

Totally understandable and likely his nod to being politically correct. Although he may be seeing hate mongers raging on those who like this system in his circles... but here the positivity police pile on anyone with a dissenting opinion like a pack of rabid hyenas. The atmosphere is more love it or shut the hell up. Very annoying as nothing ever improves when only one side of the coin is represented... the community needs to adopt the Yin and Yang philosophy to flourish... Balance is everything.

Erik Setzer

07-07-2015, 07:20 PM

What was the result of stripping all of those things out? A dead game system. Gee i wonder why they might be re-injecting the game with a sense of humour.

Oh? I wasn't aware 40K was dead? When did that happen? Holy smokes, that's two system reboots in quick succession!

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

07-08-2015, 01:09 AM

I am all for change. It's in my name.

daboarder

07-08-2015, 01:30 AM

So many people have been talking about how Warhammer going means that they don't have a serious tactical wargame, as if that was what Warhammer ever was. Nerds thinking they're Sun Tzu is always hilarious.

Are you ever NOT disparaging of people who enjoy their hobby?

I mean this doesnt even make sense given YOU YOURSELF have been bleating for ages that warhammer is ballanced.

So what is it path, was warhammer balanced and therefore a tactical wargame, or was it all just dicerolls and list building, make up your mind instead of just lashing out in an effort to praise GW on high

Path Walker

07-08-2015, 02:07 AM

Are you ever NOT disparaging of people who enjoy their hobby?

I mean this doesnt even make sense given YOU YOURSELF have been bleating for ages that warhammer is ballanced.

So what is it path, was warhammer balanced and therefore a tactical wargame, or was it all just dicerolls and list building, make up your mind instead of just lashing out in an effort to praise GW on high

I've always maintained its balanced for casual, non-competitive narrative play. I've also actually been bleating that WHFB has problems due to unit sizes that needed fixing to allow new people to start playing. But nice try. It must be a hard time for you, so you have my deepest sympathies.

Xaric

07-08-2015, 04:19 AM

Khorne approves of all the haters to AoS I guess you could picture Khorne saying "JUST AS PLANNNED OH GOD I SAID THAT LITTLE NOBLIT LINE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" *rage intensifys*

Mr Mystery

07-08-2015, 05:55 AM

It just gets tiresome.

Imagine going out for a meal with a group of friends. The menu has your favourite dish, so you order it. Then one of your friends pipes up about how they used to enjoy that dish, but don't anymore. And then go on and on and on and on and on about how much they don't enjoy that dish anymore, and their perceived failings of said dish, and why you're a fool for continuing to enjoy said dish because they don't enjoy it anymore because of reasons and you shouldn't enjoy that dish because nobody should enjoy it at all.

Quite missing that their relative lack of enjoyment doesn't impact your enjoyment one iota - nor vice versa.

This is the internet. There's peeps on this very thread who were doomsaying from the start, even when it was clear the earlier rumours were tosh. People who without even having seen, let alone played under the rules had decided the game was crap, and anyone willing to give it a bash, let along those who did and said 'this is actually kind of fun. Different, but fun' is somehow mentally deficient, and then take it upon themselves to sit in every single thread complaining about it likes it's going to make any difference.

So here's my run down.

1. Warhammer has changed. Massively.
2. Enjoyment of AoS is by no means compulsory
3. Complaining about it ad nauseum isn't going to suddenly make it the 9th Ed you hoped for. Move on.

If there's a thread discussing the game limitations, go post there. If there's a thread discussing what people want to do with the game, be constructive in your comments. If there's a thread about how much people are enjoying it - don't be Billy Buzzkill. Go complain elsewhere.

Spider-pope

07-08-2015, 06:52 AM

If there's a thread discussing the game limitations, go post there. If there's a thread discussing what people want to do with the game, be constructive in your comments. If there's a thread about how much people are enjoying it - don't be Billy Buzzkill. Go complain elsewhere.

But on the other hand, it's also unfair to have threads like this, where the title itself is just trolling those unhappy about AoS. The same request should be made of those who like the game. If you like the game, write about liking the game, not about how much you are enjoying seeing people be unhappy.

Mr Mystery

07-08-2015, 06:56 AM

True, but this thread seems more aimed at the Hyperbole Brigade - those who have ever refused to give anything new a chance, especially if it involves GW.

Spider-pope

07-08-2015, 06:58 AM

True, but this thread seems more aimed at the Hyperbole Brigade - those who have ever refused to give anything new a chance, especially if it involves GW.

Still doesn't mean one should descend to that same level if you're supporting the game. You can't poke a wasp nest and then complain when they start buzzing around you head trying to sting you.

40kGamer

07-08-2015, 07:08 AM

It just gets tiresome.

Also understandable... and it seems that every reaction spawns a "greater" and opposite reaction which leads to things spinning out of control quickly in either direction.

So here's my run down.

1. Warhammer has changed. Massively.
2. Enjoyment of AoS is by no means compulsory
3. Complaining about it ad nauseum isn't going to suddenly make it the 9th Ed you hoped for. Move on.

If there's a thread discussing the game limitations, go post there. If there's a thread discussing what people want to do with the game, be constructive in your comments. If there's a thread about how much people are enjoying it - don't be Billy Buzzkill. Go complain elsewhere.

I totally understand people being put off by WFB getting Squatted, and if we're honest, that's what appears to have happened here. Using the same models with vaguely familiar lore does not equal the same game. So people are pissed, naturally... but instead of contrast and compare (since this "ain't no WFB"), we do all need to move on to judging AoS for it's own merits and flaws... and we can't fully do that until we are privy to GW's full vision which may take weeks, months or years.

For me I'm going to wander over and check out KoW to see what Alessio's put together, in much the same way as I'm following Priestly's newest offering of 'Beyond the Gates of Antares'. Companies and Corporations are ultimately meaningless as everything relies on the artists behind them. Main reason I muck about with GW at all is that Jervis is still hanging out and that Jes Goodwin is arguably the best mini designer of all time. (Well he get's my vote)

I do find it fascinating that every one and their cousin are already proposing points/balancing mechanisms for AoS which indicates to me that as a community, balance is a significant factor. If the latest info regarding GW is correct, they even plan to provide an official balancing mechanic at some point. Really seems weird to me that this wasn't part of the initial rollout but their business practices often leave me scratching my head. :)

- - - Updated - - -

Still doesn't mean one should descend to that same level if you're supporting the game. You can't poke a wasp nest and then complain when they start buzzing around you head trying to sting you.

:)

Auticus

07-08-2015, 07:21 AM

I agree that trolling the people that are angry is as lame as those people trolling the people that are trying to work with it.

40kGamer

07-08-2015, 07:44 AM

At the moment I'm having serious flashbacks to the EPIC 40k (3rd edition) debacle. EPIC 40k is a solid game on it's own but it oversimplified things to the point that the 2nd edition people walked in mass and it failed to generate a substantial new following.

Xaric

07-08-2015, 08:00 AM

I did this thread as a experiment to those hating the new format to see there reaction to the title and trust me I am not disappointed with the results lets put it this way because I the post OP made a post based on my love of how people hate the change's they retaliated with the hate of the new rules in a way that defines a human and that is COMPREHENTION unfortunately they cant accept something that does not last forever things change is it better to give up and just change... no but is it better to deny change could ever happen... This is the fault of every human I guess :D

The problem with people is they don't see the benefit fantasy has over 40k lets look at it this way you have the rules for 8th edition you have the rules for free for AoS you can use your collection of models in both formats without paying more money. Now look at 40k you have 1 format and if they get a rule update for 8th edition they need to buy a new rulebook because you cant use your models in the next edition without the rule book people wont play with you because of that due to unbalanced issues.

The games format in AOS is now of rock paper scissors lets use this example instead of units okay for deployment

You place paper unit they place scissor unit to counter your paper unit
Your next unit you place rock unit to counter there scissor unit they place a rock unit to counter your scissor unit

Now both sides have the same unit types there is your balance bring all your collection but think wisely what they put on the table because if you have no rock units and they have scissor units they will steamroll you because you cant counter them THAT THERE IS BALANCE NOT A BROKEN FORMAT as everyone has been saying about balance.

Now review two army's and look for similarity's so far I have found there are Horde units with a special ability that gets greater if boosted by a hero and its numbers Special chart units that loose its effectiveness when they take wounds and elite units that are huge but are more of a glass cannon.

Stop looking at the game as lists and rather start thinking like a general the narrative when you bring your collection to the game is you have marched all over the land and you run into your foe some generals in wars do not throw all there troops into battle because at least if they lost they could retreat to a better position to mount a counter attack now the placement order is how a general would scout out his foe if a general saw that they had cannons he would speak to his advisers and declare the best soldiers to counter the threat and so on and so on.

I hope this gives people a idea of what age of sigmar is and what it can become in greatness if you only sit down and look and not just jump into a argument.

Erik Setzer

07-08-2015, 08:31 AM

True, but this thread seems more aimed at the Hyperbole Brigade - those who have ever refused to give anything new a chance, especially if it involves GW.

The other Hyperbole Brigade - those who say everything GW does is awesome, even if they haven't tried it yet, and rabidly attack any dissent - is also tiring. And this thread is part of that Hyperbole Brigade.

Using your example, it's like going to a restaurant with friends, and the staff got rid of a classic recipe and released a new one, replacing, say, a hearty "bistro burger" (using one restaurant's sandwich with that name, it'd be a nice thick burger cooked to your request, with cheddar cheese, applewood smoked bacon, onion rings, and bistro sauce, and pickles if you want) with the equivalent (in all respects) of a Big Mac. Now, sure, plenty of people might like a Big Mac. But you can only take so much of your friend telling you the Big Mac is the best thing ever, and how it's better than the other burger which clearly would have stayed on the menu if it was as good as a Big Mac, and the $25 you're paying for a Big Mac is clearly worth it because it's a niche place to eat, and the Big Mac you can get for $4 at McDonald's, while being exactly the same, can't be as good because it's not made by the right people. If you talk about that old bistro burger being nice, the other friend shouts you down and tells you his Big Mac is superior. If you say anything other than praise for the Big Mac, the friend shouts you down, calls you a negative git, and badgers you about not admitting the superiority of the Big Mac, while also saying that you just haven't tried the Big Mac yet and, if you do, you'll admit it's the best thing EVER... even if you ate a Big Mac right in front of him the day before.

It's not going to a restaurant, getting the same food as before, and someone not liking it. AoS is NOT Warhammer. Not even remotely the same kind of game. Only a person who doesn't even know what AoS is, and hasn't seen any models for it, much less rules, could make that kind of comparison.

Xaric

07-08-2015, 08:35 AM

Your both right and your both wrong its both sides because maybe just maybe there is no good or evil in the world only a choice with consequence's to said choice that everyone has to bare with and about the good or evil side.

Good could be to someone who likes something wile another person could see it as evil for you liking it or it is against what he sees is good and evil and vice verse.

Path Walker

07-08-2015, 08:38 AM

Thats the worst analogy I have ever read. And i've read more bad analogies than a crab in a wedding dress.

Deadlift

07-08-2015, 08:48 AM

I'm sorry Xaric, but the title of this thread and your "experiment" are far to contentious for me. I'm all for debate but trolltastic threads don't help. I'm sure you had good intentions.

I really can understand the anger and upset from some of the warhammer community. GW just wiped the slate clean with fantasy and threw the game they love in the bin. It's been replaced with something entirely different. GW have tried to make the transition as painless as possible with free rules and army compendiums but it is what it is. I don't think GW have even aimed this at current fantasy players. It's aimed at new customers.
Me personally, I am very positive about AoS. I think the models are amazing (all GW models are imo) and for once it's a game I can afford to get into and include my kids. 40k with its allies, unbound and formations just got too complicated for me and I dropped it as soon as 7th was released. This is GWs answer to players like me.
One thing I hope we don't see is the Warhammer players so disgruntled by AoS they drop 40k as well and move their hobby budget to pastures new.

Spider-pope

07-08-2015, 08:59 AM

I did this thread as a experiment to those hating the new format to see there reaction to the title and trust me I am not disappointed with the results

In other words, you were trolling. At least you're honest i guess.

40kGamer

07-08-2015, 09:06 AM

For some odd reason the whole AoS thing makes me think of this:

http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/7-Batman-quotes.gif

acrimonger

07-08-2015, 09:23 AM

I think there are a few reasons for the strong reactions to AoS:

1. Its radically different than what we are used to
2. There is so much we dont know
3. Nothing was communicated to us about changes, WHY they chose to do X, etc. which makes it hard to know "is rule Y intentional, or an oversight?"

Those issues, regardless of the quality of AoS and if its the right move or not, make it hard to get on board for a lot of folks.

Regarding future releases, it seems the emphasis is on campaign books and developing the story. I really like this. I dont want to buy 10 different army books, but I would probably buy campaign settings with scenarios, army comps, and dynamic themed content that makes AoS an evolving game as it goes on.

But we dont know...

Mr Mystery

07-08-2015, 09:36 AM

Thats the worst analogy I have ever read. And i've read more bad analogies than a crab in a wedding dress.

I see what you did there...

Erik, I again invite you to make most judicious use of the Ignore button, seeing as you seem to take issue with everything I say. Seriously, please do. It has health benefits.

Me, I enjoy AoS. No, it's not 9th Ed, yes it lacks some of what made Warhammer an enjoyable game to me.

But hey, as I am fond of saying at work 'It Is What It Is'. Me, I'm looking forward to the future as I always do. As for classical Warhammer? I have every book barring Triumph and Treachery, so I'm good to go not just for the foreseeable future, but the rest of my life, on account said books most certainly are not going anywhere.

Can't play at home for the time being due to very small flat syndrome, but should be getting my promotion in the next month or two (Lord alone knows it's due!) and at that point I'll be actively seeking a larger Nerdcave to accommodate me and my junk.

Until then, local gaming club is anything goes, and other friends have boards at home.

So AoS, even if I hadn't found it to my tastes not one blind bit of difference to me at all. Not. One. Jot.

So to use your elaboration of my own analogy.....I don't give a monkies if you preferred the old burger, because I enjoy the new, and have the skills and resources to make said old burger at home.

People getting all piss and vinegar makes no difference to that.

Insert_nickname_here

07-08-2015, 10:07 AM

The other Hyperbole Brigade - those who say everything GW does is awesome, even if they haven't tried it yet, and rabidly attack any dissent - is also tiring. And this thread is part of that Hyperbole Brigade.

Using your example, it's like going to a restaurant with friends, and the staff got rid of a classic recipe and released a new one, replacing, say, a hearty "bistro burger" (using one restaurant's sandwich with that name, it'd be a nice thick burger cooked to your request, with cheddar cheese, applewood smoked bacon, onion rings, and bistro sauce, and pickles if you want) with the equivalent (in all respects) of a Big Mac. Now, sure, plenty of people might like a Big Mac. But you can only take so much of your friend telling you the Big Mac is the best thing ever, and how it's better than the other burger which clearly would have stayed on the menu if it was as good as a Big Mac, and the $25 you're paying for a Big Mac is clearly worth it because it's a niche place to eat, and the Big Mac you can get for $4 at McDonald's, while being exactly the same, can't be as good because it's not made by the right people. If you talk about that old bistro burger being nice, the other friend shouts you down and tells you his Big Mac is superior. If you say anything other than praise for the Big Mac, the friend shouts you down, calls you a negative git, and badgers you about not admitting the superiority of the Big Mac, while also saying that you just haven't tried the Big Mac yet and, if you do, you'll admit it's the best thing EVER... even if you ate a Big Mac right in front of him the day before.

It's not going to a restaurant, getting the same food as before, and someone not liking it. AoS is NOT Warhammer. Not even remotely the same kind of game. Only a person who doesn't even know what AoS is, and hasn't seen any models for it, much less rules, could make that kind of comparison.

Damn you, Erik, I really want that Bistro Burger...

Xaric

07-08-2015, 10:35 AM

troll or a experiment see it as you will but as I can tell by it that some people really need to grow up the realism is nothing lasts forever your family your toys your job one day they are there the next they could be gone its called change and change stops for no one you could spend the next 100 years whining and complaining thinking your this special snowflake and everything must go your way when it does not or you could do the thing that humans have evolved over 100s of years. Adapt evolve and move on it maybe harsh of me saying this but its true and the truth hurts unfortunately it is up to the company and there statistics of how they govern there product because you could say this and that and make judgements with little to no evidence of claiming how bad something is when its not going your way but they are the ones with all the data and information that tells them if something is green or red.

Did you also know its good business practise to have half a dozen products down the line after the one product you currently have launched and slowly giving out those product at intervals so your making max profit if you just throw everything out there it gives too much choice meaning less profit because everyone can pick and choose wile if you do 1 bunch of products at a time people are more likely to buy them because there new.

And that there my fuzzy little children is how business is conducted I hope I have filled your grey matter with that juicy knowledge :D

also a hint it is doing well they made a giant statue of the storm warrior and replaced there old could tell us a number of things one the units of AOS starter set have been selling like crazy possible beating some of there other product line or could say they have made so much profit with the starter sets alone that it bypassed fantasy product line of 8th edition within its quarter :D

Erik Setzer

07-08-2015, 01:21 PM

also a hint it is doing well they made a giant statue of the storm warrior and replaced there old could tell us a number of things one the units of AOS starter set have been selling like crazy possible beating some of there other product line or could say they have made so much profit with the starter sets alone that it bypassed fantasy product line of 8th edition within its quarter :D

They produced that statue and set it up before they even started taking preorders, so they couldn't know how many there would be, much less have brought in a lot of money.

And at the local GW store, a lot fewer people are lining up to buy AoS than did the End Times books, so I doubt it's already raking in more. Especially as, again, it isn't even officially on shelves.

The statue was put there because they're trying a hard sell on AoS, doing everything they can to push it. No matter how well it does, the Space Marine will be back eventually. For now, they're trying to push the game with people, drum up hype, and show that they're "committed" to it.

If you're going to troll, don't make it so blatantly obvious.

(I'd hope you're trolling, because otherwise it suggests you have a hard time understanding reality, how time and money work, and a lot of core concepts in life... though you might just be extremely young, and have that going as an excuse.)

- - - Updated - - -

Damn you, Erik, I really want that Bistro Burger...

It's quite good, especially ordered medium rare and with a drink like Smithwick's on the side.

Erik Setzer

07-08-2015, 01:41 PM

Erik, I again invite you to make most judicious use of the Ignore button, seeing as you seem to take issue with everything I say. Seriously, please do. It has health benefits.

Why don't you do it, then? You take issue with everything I say, since I'm not all sunshine and rainbows about Games Workshop.

I don't care that you enjoy AoS. You enjoy it all you want. But stop telling me and other people that we can't have criticisms of the game, just because *you* think it's perfect. If you must rush out to tell everyone how wrong they are for not bowing at the altar of Games Workshop and firing off the cash cannon every time GW releases something new, then perhaps *you* need to worry about your health, because you're going to be doing a lot of rushing.

I'm still trying to remain optimistic that you aren't a full-on troll like Path Walker. Maybe I'm wrong there.

My health isn't going to suffer from anything you say. Sorry to tell you, you're just not that important to me. The opinion of those closest to me is what matters. And that's part of what bums me about AoS, because the people I'm most likely to want to play games with, because they want a fun, fair experience, absolutely hate AoS, to the point some won't give it a try (and admittedly watching the Charlie Foxtrot that happened at the GW store Saturday didn't help their opinions... imagine the worst players you know getting together all at once to try to figure out how to break the new game). I have a whole army - and half another - sitting on a table at home set up for AoS, and I can't play them, because your opinion isn't shared by the entire world. And maybe you'd like me to pass along your personal view that they're all wrong and stupid. But right now, I have to deal with GW pissing all over this release so bad that I have useless models sitting around until people either find a way to fix the game or... something.

More than anything you can say or do, that's what upsets me. That's where my annoyance comes from. I wanted to give the game a chance, I sat down and spent evenings assembling a whole new army for AoS rather than playing on my PC or XBox, and now it means nothing, and I can't see that situation changing.

But hey, at least if I want to do a GW game with them, we've all got 30K. And heck, at this point, I think it might be cheaper on a per-model basis, but at least people are nice enough to let me use my Chaos Iron Warriors (though, with the exception of Chaos logos, they pretty much look like they would have anyway).

Path Walker

07-08-2015, 02:05 PM

I'm still trying to work out the burger analogy.

So, the restaurant stopped selling the burger you liked, and instead now sells Big Macs, and someone says well you should just try the big mac, it's a burger so it's pretty close and you might enjoy it.

And instead you want to rave about how good the old burger was (despite at the time saying the old burger was t as good as the burger before it because it was bigger and you couldn't eat it all) so, they guys saying try the Big Mac or leave the restaurant are the arseholes because they don't see the point in just bleating on about a now defunct burg?

Did I get that right?

Xaric

07-08-2015, 02:24 PM

daboarder

07-08-2015, 04:26 PM

and thus is Erik and the many others who have pointed it out proven accurate.

Hello usual suspects, nice to see your behaving the same as always.

- - - Updated - - -

True, but this thread seems more aimed at the Hyperbole Brigade - those who have ever refused to give anything new a chance, especially if it involves GW.

you do realise you are part of the hyperbole brigade right? Just the other kind, hypocrite as always mystery.

- - - Updated - - -

I totally understand people being put off by WFB getting Squatted, and if we're honest, that's what appears to have happened here. Using the same models with vaguely familiar lore does not equal the same game. So people are pissed, naturally... but instead of contrast and compare (since this "ain't no WFB"), we do all need to move on to judging AoS for it's own merits and flaws... and we can't fully do that until we are privy to GW's full vision which may take weeks, months or years.

For me I'm going to wander over and check out KoW to see what Alessio's put together, in much the same way as I'm following Priestly's newest offering of 'Beyond the Gates of Antares'. Companies and Corporations are ultimately meaningless as everything relies on the artists behind them. Main reason I muck about with GW at all is that Jervis is still hanging out and that Jes Goodwin is arguably the best mini designer of all time. (Well he get's my vote)

I do find it fascinating that every one and their cousin are already proposing points/balancing mechanisms for AoS which indicates to me that as a community, balance is a significant factor. If the latest info regarding GW is correct, they even plan to provide an official balancing mechanic at some point. Really seems weird to me that this wasn't part of the initial rollout but their business practices often leave me scratching my head. :)

I've been looking at KoW and its looking like a nice community, Im not even entirely sure I'd want to buy some wood elves for it instead of picking up a mantic army......

Cap'nSmurfs

07-08-2015, 05:01 PM

FWIW, I'd rather have threads like the other one here where we talk about how much we like something (we who like it) rather than pouring scorn on people who don't, but that's me.

Erik Setzer

07-09-2015, 05:41 AM

Erik you forget that business also work on predicted sales also no business takes extreme risks that could cause a company to go bust unless they have a plan B because of the investors and there business partners and what not but clearly you know all about how every business works also people lining up local GW store lets not forget we have a wonderful thing called online shopping who does there pre-orders in shops anymore other then older generation or parents... also I hear people have been buying out the WD that came with the free model like crazy so yeah lets say AOS is not doing too well because people don't have the internet nowadays to pre-order clearly if there not in shops pre-ordering it must be doing bad lets not forget you are at about 1 or 2 GW stores or a few retailers that sell miniature's clearly that tells us that everyone go's to those shops you visit...

You say I am trolling but your delusional learn to use your brain and not see things with just your eyes look at how the Wii did vs. ps3 and xbox360 people even said before it was out it was going to do poorly because when they announced the rig set up for it as it was considered poor hardware compared to the ps3 and xbox360 all the fan boys/girls of those two company's just laugh till the day the Wii came out.

The sales not only beat one but beat both ps3 and Xbox together and were talking about a system that went sod the graphics lets focus on the simplistic gameplay that appealed to everyone with a understandable format rather then complexity or appealing to its current demographics... in other words they was thinking like a business and not lets not upset our current fan base mentality yes GW will most likely loose some if not a lot of there current fan base because of the new rules.

Guess what new blood joined the scene even a lot more of the other gender have taken more liking to the new system even older parents who had no interest in such have been taking interest in the new system because 4 page of rules can be understood in 50 secs even if you don't understand them fully having them on hand as a reference is understandable without much time consumption also no rules that go against another rule creating confusion and frustration.

Another thing that did the same thing FF14 many fans was upset they was going to reboot it because of its poor launch but they spent so much time in that game they argued and said if it happens there quitting and what not so the guys at FF14 smashed a meteor into the planet reworked it from scratch and used popular stuff in other MMORPG to apply to it and they successed in remaking there MMORPG mind you paid subscription also very hard mind you with all the F2P MMORPG out there.

So if you wish to call me a troll and live in a world of where you believe if it doesn't go your way you know the right direction every time even if your dead wrong you can keep on doing that or like everyone else who has accepted the new format get on with what the hobby is about and that is having pride and fun in what you do.

*Yawn* I didn't waste my time reading it all.

Games Workshop doesn't throw a bunch of money out on "predicted sales" because right now they can't afford to make predictions that sales will go well. They've released a new edition of their flagship game, two new Space Marine codices, new armies, lots of new expensive models, the End Time product line (which did amazing at first but rapidly went downhill with interest), and so much more, and yet their revenues are down. If 40K can't bring them more money, there's no reason they'd expect AoS to actually give them a huge jump in revenue. Especially as a lot of their more expensive releases have ended up sitting on a shelf because they didn't realize people aren't interested in, say, paying $125 for a board game without that many pieces and little replayability.

You tell me to "learn to use my brain" but the thing is, I am. You clearly aren't. Your comments make no sense from a business perspective, especially one that's seen loss of revenues two years in a row. If they decided to just assume they'd get a bunch of money from a high-stakes risk, they would be incredibly stupid. And while they've shown themselves to be out of touch and ready to make questionable decisions, I don't think they're on the level of making decisions that are so insanely stupid as to invite bringing ruin to the company. Yet, for some reason, you do.

You know what... let's go ahead and address a couple of your other points real quick, and bring you back to the real world.

The Wii sold as well as it did because it was seriously designed for all age ranges and people, including the price point. The Wii was about half the price of the other consoles - I paid nearly $400 for my 360, only $100 for a brand new Wii - and the games are often 1/3 to 1/2 the price of other games, or maybe $40 as opposed to $60. The Wii is popular not just because it was open to everyone, but because it was also a lot more affordable. Using that as an example with regard to a game that's pricing itself as a "premium" product is... well, let's leave it at "not smart."

As for FF14, people weren't really worried about a reboot. And FF14 was such a mess it needed one. The reboot didn't dumb the game down or anything. The reboot has incredible graphics and plenty of depth of gameplay. It enhanced the existing game. The game that existed was a complete mess. Absolutely no one disagreed with just redoing it. That's a different situation from Warhammer, where a few tweaks could have helped salvage the game.

Seriously, try bringing some real information to a discussion. And if you're going to defend Games Workshop using examples, they shouldn't be examples where someone did the exact opposite of what GW's doing. (Hey, do you want to bring the XBox One into this? You know, the console where they listened to customers and fundamentally changed the system from its intended setup so that it'd match what the people wanted? The one they spent money adding backward compatibility to because the people wanted it, even though they can't charge the people more for that? The console that saw part of it split off to become an optional purchase, and has seen price decreases, and didn't even cost more than the 360 upon release? Because hey, if you're going to pull examples that are opposite of GW, that's a good one, especially as it's Microsoft, who are more universally hated than GW ever will be, and yet *they* did right by their customers.)

- - - Updated - - -

FWIW, I'd rather have threads like the other one here where we talk about how much we like something (we who like it) rather than pouring scorn on people who don't, but that's me.

Positive threads are a lot better. Then even disappointed people might be encouraged to peek in, maybe add to the conversation, and might be converted through positive commentary, rather that, "You don't think this is the BEST GAME EVER? You suck, your family sucks, everything about you sucks!"

Caitsidhe

07-09-2015, 06:28 AM

My personal view is the AOS is hilarious and very entertaining. I don't mean the game is fun; it isn't. I've already played it. I just love watching Games Workshop immolate themselves. When this thing crashes, I hope that they will finally can all their people at the top and change course. It is always darkest before the dawn, and I think we are way out of the blue and into the black now. :D They haven't just doubled down on bad policy and game design, they have tripled and quadrupled down. When this thing explodes they won't be able to pretend it is the exchange rate or whatever other BS excuse they have applied to their sinking reports. This is their Jar Jar Binks out and proud. They will have to own it.

Path Walker

07-09-2015, 08:32 AM

Mr Mystery

07-09-2015, 08:35 AM

Just.....wow.

As I said before - I DON'T LIKE IT SO NOBODY CAN. SPECIAL SNOWFLAKES, ATTAAAAAAACK!!!!!

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

07-09-2015, 08:36 AM

Hah. daboarder got a shout on the "Rage of Sigmar" Facebook group. :p

40kGamer

07-09-2015, 08:39 AM

How could that even be serious... I thought Brits were all prim and proper and left the nerd raging to us rebellious colonies. :)

Mr Mystery

07-09-2015, 08:42 AM

Was probably one of you dirty foreign chappies, I'd wager.

Auticus

07-09-2015, 08:44 AM

wow. Just wow.

40kGamer

07-09-2015, 08:57 AM

Was probably one of you dirty foreign chappies, I'd wager.

Ah, that would explain it. ;)

Seriously what is wrong with folks that anyone in their right mind would react this way? Just a tad overemotional.

I would have a hard time believing this but I actually saw a GW store manager who was playing at a table next to me lose it after the first round of a 40k event... The judge called the time and said not to start any new rounds... I'd watched this mook slow play his opponent all game and then he was the one who flew into a rage as another round gave him a chance to win. He proceeded to have a total **** fit on his opponent, the judge and anyone in the area, then packed up his Tau and walked out. One of the most bizarro displays of public insanity that I've ever seen.

To GW's credit, word of his nerdrage made it back to the company and they promptly retired him from service even though it was not a GW sponsored event. Seriously man, the whole point of playing is to kick back with like minded blokes and have some fun... and when the wee ones aren't about you can even add ale in to up the ante.

Deadlift

07-09-2015, 09:15 AM

How could that even be serious... I thought Brits were all prim and proper and left the nerd raging to us rebellious colonies. :)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab3/joenortonjones/1cb5bd75bef8fff5a81f83ad6b2a6a81.jpg
Not always, had that been my game I may have waited for him to leave and then turned him inside out in the car park 😇

40kGamer

07-09-2015, 09:17 AM

Path Walker

07-09-2015, 09:18 AM

I wonder when we'll see someone attack people playing a game of 8th? Or grabbing models from a regiment base and spread them out within 1 inch of each other.

40kGamer

07-09-2015, 09:20 AM

Well you'd have to get me drunk first.... but I guess that could be fun if the one's playing had the attitude of the table flipping bloke.

Mr Mystery

07-09-2015, 09:21 AM

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab3/joenortonjones/1cb5bd75bef8fff5a81f83ad6b2a6a81.jpg
Not always, had that been my game I may have waited for him to leave and then turned him inside out in the car park 😇

If you must, do try to remember that contrary to popular believe, the best place to start is not the belly button. Undoing that just makes their bottoms fall off.

No. Start with their bunghole. You may wish to wear rubber gloves, and perhaps a peg on your nose for that.

Erik Setzer

07-09-2015, 10:44 AM

40kGamer

07-09-2015, 10:52 AM

Path Walker

07-09-2015, 10:55 AM

Xaric

07-09-2015, 10:56 AM

well erik I cant say you do use your brain by pointing out "*Yawn* I didn't waste my time reading it all." I don't think I should waste time reasoning with someone who has the attention span that you just admitted to clearly your so far up your own backside you can smell what you had for breakfast... there's no point even me reading what you say because half of it contradicts itself anyway and you clearly have no understanding how business practises work so I bid you adieu.

I wait for your pityful comeback of a childish nature enjoy living in a world where you believe your always correct :)

Caitsidhe

07-09-2015, 11:34 AM

Having been and played at Warhammer World many times, the tables are very flippable. Butthurt man babies in a rage have been known to do all sorts of childish **** at Games Workshops/Tournaments, and this comes from Laurie Golding, I'd say that on the balance of probability, its pretty damn likely.

How odd. I've attended so many tournaments, taken part in countless pick up games at the LGS, and played among friends at private residences. I have yet to ever see anyone behave like this. Does this happen often in over there? Of course, the behavior I've watched after British Football matches (by both winners and losers) surprises me too.

Xaric

07-09-2015, 11:40 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc let the video speak for its self of how crazy people can get over something they have spent loads of time invested in :D

Erik Setzer

07-09-2015, 11:46 AM

I was thinking more of them flipping the Realm of Battle tiles off vs the table proper... and I suspect GW would actively suppress this type of info as who wants to send the tots off to an environment with potential loons.

Even that wouldn't be easy to do. Like I said, not sure about Warhammer World, but at the local store, the RoB tiles are set down in an area with a short "wall" around it to hold them in place. You'd have to put some effort into getting your fingers in and getting a tile up, not that easy (have to do it from time to time when the manager shifts the demo table to a fourth gaming table because of lot of players in-store). That kind of stuff happening while someone watches? Nah.

If "upending" just meant coming over and yelling and disrupting the match, I could see that. And it's possible that's what was meant, but people took it too literally and went for dramatic effect.

- - - Updated - - -

I wait for your pityful comeback of a childish nature enjoy living in a world where you believe your always correct :)

You can't answer any of the facts I put out there? Or my points about how your examples were bad for Games Workshop? You claim I know nothing of business practices while you were claiming GW had a bunch of money from a game that hadn't sold any copies yet, then switched to claiming they "knew" AoS was going to bring in a lot of money and they could spend as much as they want, despite no real measurable numbers being available to them yet, the game itself being a risk, and prior Warhammer sales dropping low, at a time the company has dropped in revenue two years in a row.

At this point, you're clearly a troll, and trying to call someone "childish" when they present facts while you simply sling names is just much too obvious.

Congrats on joining Path Walker as the only two trolls in my Ignore list.

Spider-pope

07-09-2015, 12:07 PM

I don't buy the story. At least not actual "table-flipping." There's no way anyone's going to flip a table at the local GW store, and I can't imagine the tables at Warhammer World being made lighter.

Funny thing is, there's a part in that post that says something about people should get the full story before making judgments... and yet people are making a lot of judgments without having the full story here.

I didn't believe it myself. But it was written by the lead editor of the Horus Heresy series, or at least someone claiming to be them. That makes me think it might have happened. But on the other hand, they didn't directly witness it.

It's certainly a ridiculous over reaction to not liking a game system.

40kGamer

07-09-2015, 12:12 PM

It's certainly a ridiculous over reaction to not liking a game system.

It is, but after the one meltdown I witnessed I can totally see it happening. Undoubtedly its masking a much larger issue that particular individual has but the results are the same.

Spider-pope

07-09-2015, 12:14 PM

It is, but after the one meltdown I witnessed I can totally see it happening. Undoubtedly its masking a much larger issue that particular individual has but the results are the same.

I've witnessed someone throwing their miniatures in the bin and storming out of a GW years ago. I've yet to see a table flip. If the event happened, and it was someone elses stuff, well that's not on and the authorities should have been called. Ruining your own stuff in rage? Well that's daft but go ahead.

Erik Setzer

07-09-2015, 12:44 PM

That all just seems so... stupid.

At my worst (sorry, decided to edit the post and not go into what I mean by this), I've never felt like doing something like that. Maybe I'm selling myself short and I'm not as much of a short fuse as I keep thinking I am, but I can make it through a horrible gaming experience without causing physical damage or even making a huge scene. Yeah, I might sit there seething as I deal with someone bringing a WAAC army and then trying to rules lawyer every rule in order to win a game, or someone telling me how much they love the fluff while they bring a list that insults the fluff just to have a beatstick list (while claiming they don't), but I won't cause any kind of scene.

I held my tongue in the local GW store (granted, I like the manager) even while I felt my heart sinking as I watched guys play an AoS game and try to rules lawyer it and do cheeky stuff with army selection and all. It wasn't my game, why get involved?

There's only one time I'd get involved in someone else's game, and that's if an older player is being a jerk to a younger player, something like that.

Throwing stuff? Flipping tables? Even just yelling about someone else's game? Nah. These are games. Not something to get overly angry and violent about.

Cap'nSmurfs

07-09-2015, 02:04 PM

Never underestimate the capacity of nerds to be ****heads, is a lesson we're learning a lot lately.

Mr Mystery

07-09-2015, 02:12 PM

daboarder

07-09-2015, 04:39 PM

15022

Telling people to chill out and enjoy the new game or stop impotently raging isnt hyperbole. It's being a grown up accepting this is a game for children rather than a ting like a child pretending it's a serious grown up pass time.

No one is raging at people no liking age of sigmar, we're just laughing at how pathetic some people are acting.

path, consistently multiple times in this thread and others you, and mystery have raged whenever anyone points out what they percieve is a problem with this game. Even the very title of this THREAD supports that statement.

this has been pointed out by many people over the last few days, people that agree with you and actually LIKE the game think you are being overly aggresive, maybe thats your hint to try a different approach?

As to behaviour, honestly never seen anyone destroy minis or flip tables in a game I've ever played, seen the odd dice thrown as a joke but thats about it. Maybe its because the average australian gamer is old and or better socially adjusted (but then australia doesnt really hold to the social stereotypes other countries seem to have either) so this may not come up as an issue.

Alaric

07-09-2015, 05:12 PM

path, consistently multiple times in this thread and others you, and mystery have raged whenever anyone points out what they percieve is a problem with this game. Even the very title of this THREAD supports that statement.

this has been pointed out by many people over the last few days, people that agree with you and actually LIKE the game think you are being overly aggresive, maybe thats your hint to try a different approach?

As to behaviour, honestly never seen anyone destroy minis or flip tables in a game I've ever played, seen the odd dice thrown as a joke but thats about it. Maybe its because the average australian gamer is old and or better socially adjusted (but then australia doesnt really hold to the social stereotypes other countries seem to have either) so this may not come up as an issue.

Your hypocrisy is utterly amazing. Thanks for comin offa yer cloud to enlighten us tho, awfully nice of you. Whatever you do don't stop telling everyone else they are the bad guys cuz I don't want the laughs to stop. F*uckin guy, geez.

daboarder

07-09-2015, 05:21 PM

Your hypocrisy is utterly amazing. Thanks for comin offa yer cloud to enlighten us tho, awfully nice of you. Whatever you do don't stop telling everyone else they are the bad guys cuz I don't want the laughs to stop. F*uckin guy, geez.

Alaric, I have expressed both my dislike for this game (its really not for me) and my dislike for the behaviour of certain posters. But I haven't attacked anyone for liking the game itself, you can even go back and quote my statements.

theres the one on the front page in the removal of slaanesh but thats an entirely different discussion, so please, if you can find a post where I attack someone for actually liking AoS please, try and find it.

Im certainly not the only person holding this view about particular posters. heres a quote from earlier in this thread and there are others too

Totally understandable and likely his nod to being politically correct. Although he may be seeing hate mongers raging on those who like this system in his circles... but here the positivity police pile on anyone with a dissenting opinion like a pack of rabid hyenas. The atmosphere is more love it or shut the hell up. Very annoying as nothing ever improves when only one side of the coin is represented... the community needs to adopt the Yin and Yang philosophy to flourish... Balance is everything.

-40kgamer

Furthermore, if I had been the type of poster that you are suggesting I would likely be down in the good things about AoS thread below this attacking people, which clearly I am not

so like the game, have fun playing it, discuss it to your hearts content, but take the belligerence and aggression towards those that DONT like it somewhere else

Path Walker

07-09-2015, 06:13 PM

You're a very sad little man daboarder and I am sorry you have to be like that. I wish you could find some sort of happiness and wouldnt have to resort to seeing people saying "a game is good, give it a go, whining isn't doing any good" as Raging just to try and prove some point you're imagined needs to be made.

daboarder

07-09-2015, 06:19 PM

:rolleyes:

EDIT: You know what path, say what you want but the actual intelligent people can look through this thread and read my actual posts, nothing in them would indicate whinning considering they are mostly a discussion with spider-pope. But you know, do whatever you think will justify your little "in group" on the forums attacking any who point out their bad behaviour.

Still acting like a group of little children in a schoolyard

Katharon

07-09-2015, 11:55 PM

Spider-pope

07-10-2015, 01:08 AM

Well, if anyone enjoys seeing people upset about AoS, then you might enjoy this. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules) That said, I have to agree with most of Death, Holy Death's pre-rant. He hit all the major points about the game that makes me upset (but not his level of upset) with the game.

Stuff like that just makes me shake my head. You don't like the game? Okay. You don't like GW? Okay. You don't want your stuff? Okay. So sell it.

Instead he just literally burns his own money and acts like it will somehow hurt GW. They already have his money. If he put it up for sale second hand, then he'd be denying money to GW.

daboarder

07-10-2015, 01:16 AM

Stuff like that just makes me shake my head. You don't like the game? Okay. You don't like GW? Okay. You don't want your stuff? Okay. So sell it.

Instead he just literally burns his own money and acts like it will somehow hurt GW. They already have his money. If he put it up for sale second hand, then he'd be denying money to GW.

yeah its pretty silly. but then I've always taken the attitude that it doesnt really hurt to just hand on to it, you might not play the game for a long time, but if it ever changes or you find a group willing to play old rules, then you at least have your collection. Furthermore, while you may no longer playt he game you may find the painting and converting aspect more rewarding and continue that instead as I myself mostly do these days

Mr Mystery

07-10-2015, 01:18 AM

What a strange, strange man.

Path Walker

07-10-2015, 01:59 AM

Again, waiting for the person who enjoys AoS to burn their 8th Edition army, you know, because they're raging so much. And hyperbole. Not quite sure why thats a relevant word but I'll just chuck it in there anyway because apparently thats what we're doing these days.

Erik Setzer

07-10-2015, 05:34 AM

I've seen board flipping and tantrums. Had a kid poop himself too.

Nerds can be right odd.

Worst behaviour comes from those you'd think would know better and all. Massacred someone at Mordheim once (he played Witch Hunters, and chose a street fight scenario against my incredibly shooty Reiklander warband), and he threw teddy a good half mile from the pram... Dude was knocking 50...

Tantrums, I get. I've seen that. Or even people just pout-quitting. But physical actions? Seems just... a bit much. And usually the tantrums are limited to their own game.

I think the worst I witnessed (that I recall) was when I was still on all kinds of meds after an accident (didn't help the pain, but did make me tired and made my thinking all washy), and I was watching two guys play, and one was a Skaven player getting mauled, and he was acting mopey that his Grey Seer was going to die, so, being of muddled mind, I guess I thought I was trying to help him not give up or something, and said, "Well, you could just Skitterleap him out of there, right?" Apparently, he was wanting to do that, but try to trick his opponent into dispelling other stuff first (odd, since he was playing a veteran player who should have known that trick was coming, and thinking back, I believe he did), so he decided I'd just given away his master plan to his opponent and destroyed the whole game for him, and went off on me so bad that I actually thought he might physically attack me. Got my butt out of the shop quick and was afraid to even approach him to apologize. (I did, though, because even though I had an "excuse," I don't like ruining someone's game, though objectively I didn't.)

Granted, that same guy also taught me a lot of new ways of swearing while some of us were playing Killer Bunnies. (The game requires you to have a bunny active to do anything, and the rare times he'd get one on the table, he'd then draw a card that immediately killed it, meaning he spent the whole time unable to do anything out of sheer bad luck.)

Funny thing is... I don't think the guy was a bad guy. I'd play a game against him if he was still playing, even though he did have a short fuse. Which there might have been a reason for, too, though I forget.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, if anyone enjoys seeing people upset about AoS, then you might enjoy this. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules) That said, I have to agree with most of Death, Holy Death's pre-rant. He hit all the major points about the game that makes me upset (but not his level of upset) with the game.

That's just stupid. Much better idea to keep the army, buy KoW, and promote KoW to all your friends.

Similarly, promote reasonably priced dice cups, and, when someone inevitably does a reasonably priced small inches template, promote that as well, so people see alternatives and don't give GW money for overpriced nonsense.

Auticus

07-10-2015, 06:04 AM

One of the last tournaments I went to I got to watch a table get flipped. This was back in 7th ed when the demons had been released. And yes the table was fully flipped, models flying, rage and tantrum all consuming.

Erik Setzer

07-10-2015, 07:58 AM

If you need to flip a table, just buy a small RPG prop table or something like that. I know a guy who carries a small table (that can be folded for easy storage, too) to events and stuff so that he can flip it if he feels the need.

Auticus

07-10-2015, 08:24 AM

I have a tiny model inn table I use. Its 28mm in scale. When flipped, it doesn't cause damage to anything around me. And its a comedy prop ;)

40kGamer

07-10-2015, 11:02 AM

While we're on the subject of crazy people... burning your army is a bit much. :p

Al Shut

07-10-2015, 11:39 AM

Cap'nSmurfs

07-10-2015, 01:07 PM

That guy's a total bellend. "Don't watch/read this is you're easily offended" is as good a clue as any that the perpetrator of whatever is a box of dicks.