Age of Sigmar Rumor Roundup

[MARCOLL]

Sadly I think after 20 years of playing WFB and having collected a huge O & G army over that time this is the end of Warhammer for me, if I can't find a similar playable game system my collection will be going on e-bay.
Not measuring from bases = moronic
No points values = moronic
New model scale - horrible

The list goes on and I can't believe they have employed someone to completely destroy the game.

[MARCOLL]

I have to say this is the least impressive (read bloody awful) format for WFB I have ever had the misfortune to see and after 20 years I think I am done.

[Path Walker]

Sadly I think after 20 years of playing WFB and having collected a huge O & G army over that time this is the end of Warhammer for me, if I can't find a similar playable game system my collection will be going on e-bay.
Not measuring from bases = moronic
No points values = moronic
New model scale - horrible

The list goes on and I can't believe they have employed someone to completely destroy the game.

They didn't use bases to appease exisiting Fantasy players with square bases
Points values are just one of a number of balancing mechanics, M:tG does fine without them for example
The scale is the same, Eternals are just big dudes.

[Tomgar]

Sadly I think after 20 years of playing WFB and having collected a huge O & G army over that time this is the end of Warhammer for me, if I can't find a similar playable game system my collection will be going on e-bay.
Not measuring from bases = moronic
No points values = moronic
New model scale - horrible

The list goes on and I can't believe they have employed someone to completely destroy the game.

This isn't a positive comment! LET'S DOGPILE HIM, GUYS!

Joking aside, I feel your pain. I sold up about a month ago when it was abundantly clear that AoS was replacing WHFB. I don't want yet another skirmish game and I suspect you're the same. If ranked battles are what you're after, may I suggest Kings of War? I don't play it myself, but I hear they've just updated the ruleset and are doing a roaring trade since GW decided that everything must be skirmishing Space Marines.

[Erik Setzer]

Sadly I think after 20 years of playing WFB and having collected a huge O & G army over that time this is the end of Warhammer for me, if I can't find a similar playable game system my collection will be going on e-bay.
Not measuring from bases = moronic
No points values = moronic
New model scale - horrible

The list goes on and I can't believe they have employed someone to completely destroy the game.

Check out Kings of War's second edition when it hits stores soon. They're really pushing for the WFB crowd, it's written by Alessio Cavatore (formerly on the WFB design team), and some of their promo shots show Orcs and Goblins (GW's models). It has regimental combat, points, same model scale. It's a good bit simpler than WFB from what I've seen, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[daboarder]

Also keeping an eye on kings of war, if it works at small scale I'll pick up a bunch of wood elves second hand

[Tomgar]

I will be, if it plays at small points I might grab a bunch of wood elves second hand off ebay to run.

Wish I'd known dude, I just sold about 4000pts of Wood Elves!

[40kGamer]

Sadly I think after 20 years of playing WFB and having collected a huge O & G army over that time this is the end of Warhammer for me, if I can't find a similar playable game system my collection will be going on e-bay.
Not measuring from bases = moronic
No points values = moronic
New model scale - horrible

The list goes on and I can't believe they have employed someone to completely destroy the game.

They didn't just destroy the game but the setting as well. so this has few ties to what came before... And I'm out if the whole model scale changes.

[silashand]

KoW is likely what I will be playing going forward. It's not exactly the same, but at least it's a battle game and I don't have to deal with the idiocies of AoS...

[Mr Mystery]

Did people burn their 8th Ed books or something?

[Wildeybeast]

They didn't use bases to appease exisiting Fantasy players with square bases
Points values are just one of a number of balancing mechanics, M:tG does fine without them for example
The scale is the same, Eternals are just big dudes.

How exactly is MtG 'balanced' you can literally build whatever you want in a deck, which leads to some of the most neckbeardy decks imaginable.

Mystery, 8th ed is still all well and good and I will likely keep playing it, but that is a poor substitute for a proper game, especially as several armies badly need updating in it.

[Tomgar]

How exactly is MtG 'balanced' you can literally build whatever you want in a deck, which leads to some of the most neckbeardy decks imaginable.

Mystery, 8th ed is still all well and good and I will likely keep playing it, but that is a poor substitute for a proper game, especially as several armies badly need updating in it.

Yeah, if it's a choice between an unsupported game that some stores are literally not letting you play, or a regularly updated and supported ruleset from Mantic, I know which one I'd choose. Saying "just play 8th" is, with all due respect, utterly asinine. Ever tried playing 5th ed 40k in a pick up game recently?

Also, MtG is the least balanced game I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of people favourably comparing AoS to Magic. That's just mad to me, and I can only assume they've never come up against some of the beardier Magic decks.

[Mr Mystery]

It's not asinine at all.

Play it at a local club. Play it with your friends.

If you're entirely dependant on in-store gaming for the time being, why not set up a club yourself? Gives greater freedom all round.

And remember folks, very reliable rumour mongers are saying this is just the beginning of what's happened to Warhammer, and we should expect a further large release around August.

[Path Walker]

You'll probably have more luck getting a pick up game of 8th than a game of KoW 2nd. Love seeing people complain that AoS is simplified and saying they'll pick up KoW instead.

Magic is one of the most popular and widely played tabletop games in the world and has been for a long long time, I used it only as an example of how a game could be both popular (and a lot of fun) and not use points values to balance.

I wouldn't hold my breath about point ever coming back to Fantasy, that's done, expect more constructed scenarios and campaign sets moving the story along though

[ChacoStylez]

I loved the look of the Empire, always wanted to have a Nuln themed army, even picked up a box of spearmen and a box of gunners, even got the Nuln special unit of armored gunners.

I quickly realized that creating a 3000 point army for Warhammer was going to cost me hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours to build and paint. Mind you I already collect Space Marines and Tau.

It just looked daunting, so I gave up.

But now, this new game excites me. I can have 2 starter armies for $125, I can collect small skirmish forces of other armies I love the look of, like Dark Elves and Dwarves, and not think it would be impossible to do.

And I get to be on the ground floor of a new page for Warhammer.

Exciting times indeed!

[Mr Mystery]

I'm still not 100% sure the system is as 'points free' as we seem to think.

I go back to my earlier point - the only warscrolls we've seen so far are from the starter box, and such sets don't tend to worry about points or force organisation, being as they are predominantly a taster of the game.

I could well be wrong - but until midnight (or 10am tomorrow if it coincides with the pre-orders, which I think is more likely) we really don't have a great deal of evidence.

[Path Walker]

I'm pretty sure points are a thing of the past from the rules, I'm happy with it, I played a game using the wars rolls that are leaked and proxy models and had a ton of fun

[Kirsten]

it is certainly a rollercoaster. I must confess I am getting pretty excited to see what is coming out next. I am not a huge fan of the Sigmarite stuff, but no doubt they will continue releasing more for existing armies too, it can't all be new factions forever more. even if it is a radical redesign, it will still be interesting to see what they come out with. I am hoping these rumours of a month or two of solid Age of Sigmar releases are true.

[grimmas]

I might be mistaken but hasn't there been pictures of "formations" similar to 40K, that might help with adding some structure to army selection.

[Kirsten]

that was rumoured I think yes. we have seen formations for the two boxed set factions for sure, not sure about others. but I am sure there will be some.

[Timmoth]

Sigmarines dwarf Space Marines.
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It's not clip together either. :(
It needs gluing, but I just blu-tacked here...

[eldargal]

So?

[Timmoth]

For those interested in scale comparisons...


So?

[eldargal]

It's not that useful comparing to 40k models though.

[Kirsten]

they are entirely new god-powered soldiers too, it isn't a new scale for the game.

[Mr Mystery]

Another thought from the foetid depths of what, against all evidence, I consider my mind......

We don't know the format of battles. Me, I'm hoping for scenario driven victory conditions, with the 'sudden death' results varying accordingly. This would mean should someone outnumber you, they won't know exactly what their Achilles heel will turn out to be.

And that's an important consideration I think.

[Spider-pope]

Another thought from the foetid depths of what, against all evidence, I consider my mind......

We don't know the format of battles. Me, I'm hoping for scenario driven victory conditions, with the 'sudden death' results varying accordingly. This would mean should someone outnumber you, they won't know exactly what their Achilles heel will turn out to be.

And that's an important consideration I think.

Without points, narrative scenarios will be key to the game. It looks like players should adopt an attitude similar to that used when playing Inquisitor, where a dynamic, story based game is the goal, rather than just crushing your opponent. Yes, with the rules we've got it's clear that you could make an overpowered monstrosity of an army that'll destroy everything in a few turns at most. But that shouldn't be your goal when playing the game.

[Erik Setzer]

And remember folks, very reliable rumour mongers are saying this is just the beginning of what's happened to Warhammer, and we should expect a further large release around August.

Well, it's now actually sounding more like the "large release" is just future waves of figures and maybe scenarios or stuff, but no expansion of the rules, no points, nothing like that.

In a year, you'll probably still be trying to tell people that a rumor said that there's better days ahead so people should indefinitely remain optimistic for something that rumors say is coming "any day now!"

Let's not talk about rumors of "what might be ahead." Because "very reliable rumour mongers" also said that all the 8th edition books would still be usable. How did that work out? Oh, that's right, they're all obsolete! So maybe we should stop relying on rumours. Maybe you should let people judge what's here and now. Even if things get better down the line, right now they *aren't* good for some people, and it's not fair to tell them that they're being unreasonable by judging what we have now as opposed to what rumors claim might be down the line, especially when the rumors turn out to be wrong so often.

[Wargamer]

Well someone got a hold of an AoS box (found this on 4chan, pictures aren't mine)

[Erik Setzer]

Another thought from the foetid depths of what, against all evidence, I consider my mind......

We don't know the format of battles. Me, I'm hoping for scenario driven victory conditions, with the 'sudden death' results varying accordingly. This would mean should someone outnumber you, they won't know exactly what their Achilles heel will turn out to be.

And that's an important consideration I think.

YES, WE DO KNOW. Please, stop this. We have the rules. You're trying to remain eternally optimistic, okay. But right now, it feels like your optimism is a false front, to try to mask your own fears about the system. Continually saying "We don't know what's in the rules!" when we have the rules is like a severe denial stage. And I get it, man, I'm grieving too, but just pass the denial and go to acceptance. If you don't like AoS, accept that. If you like it, then like it and be happy to tell people you like it for what it is. But for God's sake, man, it's getting sad to keep hearing "we don't know." In a week, after we have everything, we'll keep hearing, "We don't know what the game is like!"

We do know what it's like.

There are no points, no army limits, no limits on units. There are no scenarios. The rules are a very basic framework, you make up a story and decide on armies and make up a scenario to fit the story, and then play it out with friends. Just like Inquisitor was (only in that game you actually got to make up your own rules for stuff... but since AoS is relying on people being in agreement on so much other stuff, I don't think house ruled new units would be that big a deal).

So many people wanted a narrative game that they could tell whatever story they wanted and not worry about balance or anything, and complained about the existence of tournaments. And now we have that game. And it feels like even the people defending it, who wanted that lack of structure, are not happy with it.

I accept it for what it is. I'm building a Dwarf army and an Orc and Goblin army (and screw anyone who wants me to use BS names some moron created to copyright) that will hopefully allow for some balanced games, and I'll be trying AoS out in the coming week(s), knowing going into it what to expect. I miss Warhammer, I know AoS isn't meant to be more than a storytelling device, but I'll at least give it a shot as it is, because I know that it's folly to sit here and think, "There's better coming just around the corner, I just know it!"

[Mr Mystery]

We have rules, not scenarios.

Erik, by all means pop me on ignore.

[grimmas]

Hmmmm, it does say "This Starter Set" in bold on the back of the box

May be .........

[Wargamer]

More pictures from the same place...

[Kirsten]

I do quite like the great hammer dudes, and the flying dude looks better in that comparison shot.

[Wargamer]

Interesting, GW seems to have sent review copies. Sam Healey from the Dice Tower (a Boardgame focused YouTube Network) got one. Lucky guy.
https://twitter.com/samhealey74/status/616968183463804928

[Mr Mystery]

Sod it.

I think I'm sold on the box now. Comparrison shots have really helped.

[Brakkart]

Not sure if this has been seen already but some more new fantasy scenery coming:

Baleful Realmgates
1492414926

And the back of the Ophidian Archway piece
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[Mr Mystery]

Nice.

Realmgates are a lot bigger than I first imagined.

[eldargal]

Sigmarites look better in bare plastic as is oftn the case, new terrain looks nice also.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

They're hitting this one out of the park with regards to the models and artwork. I like what I've seen of the background, as well - going balls-out high fantasy is pretty cool. Just remains to be seen what the game plays like.

[spagunk]

It's not that useful comparing to 40k models though.

Unless you are trying to make some Adeptus Custodes. Think these guys fit the bill 100%. Of course you'd have to make them cone-heads but whateves.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm liking the scenery (though all the Warhammer scenery, other than Deathwatch Knell, was great) , but I still don't like the Sigmarines aesthetic.

[Erik Setzer]

Sigmarites look better in bare plastic as is oftn the case, new terrain looks nice also.

I think the over-the-top gold scheme hurt them. Seeing some of the alternates in one of the leaked images (which admittedly made the comparison to Marines even stronger) made me think that with a nice, interesting color scheme, they could look a lot better.

[Trojan66]

Nah...comparison shots show just how basic and out of scale the new figures are .
Yes , scenery looks cool, will get some of that but as you guys say...it's always cool !
Will be nice to have a game system that actually lets you interact with the scenery , haven't really had that before in warhammer.

Mr mystery...you have to admit my rumours certainly came true . Not a liar at all.

Didn't have a clue about aesthetics and that has killed it for me.

[Erik Setzer]

We have rules, not scenarios.

Yeah... and that's probably by design. If the army building is "pick what you think will make a good game," why not also just allow people to determine their own ideas for scenarios?

Also, I only ignore trolls, which is why Path Walker's the only person on my list. While you might come off pretty strong as a GW fanatic so hardcore that if they literally sold a pile of feces covered in spray you'd consider buying it and try to talk up the positives, I don't think it's intended to annoy people. And in this case, I actually feel like you might be disappointed and trying to disbelieve something that's letting you down, so I feel bad for you (genuinely, not in a condescending way). Knock the "pessimistic" (more like realist) view all you want, but it's a lot easier to be happy when you expect very little. Either you get more than you thought you would, or you get exactly what you expected and aren't disappointed.

[aelf]

Yeah... and that's probably by design. If the army building is "pick what you think will make a good game," why not also just allow people to determine their own ideas for scenarios?

Also, I only ignore trolls, which is why Path Walker's the only person on my list. While you might come off pretty strong as a GW fanatic so hardcore that if they literally sold a pile of feces covered in spray you'd consider buying it and try to talk up the positives, I don't think it's intended to annoy people. And in this case, I actually feel like you might be disappointed and trying to disbelieve something that's letting you down, so I feel bad for you (genuinely, not in a condescending way). Knock the "pessimistic" (more like realist) view all you want, but it's a lot easier to be happy when you expect very little. Either you get more than you thought you would, or you get exactly what you expected and aren't disappointed.


Had the chance to read some of the rule book in the box in advance.
1. There are scenarios like in every starter set that GW produces.
2. Units have no points but feel very much like the ones from Ilse of Blood (named characters ect.)
3. The game looks pretty fun to play. Less competitive but fun.

Oh and sigmarites are very similar to space marines but more Greek inspired. VERY similar.

[Kirsten]

taken the plunge and ordered enough round bases to do all my ogre infantry and characters. mostly they will still rank up anyway if I don't embrace Age of Sigmar, or more likely, my opponent doesn't. only problem is the characters seem to be on 50mm bases in the pic. not sure what I will go for, got 40mm for everyone, and three 50mm as well in case I decide to put the characters on them.

[Austin Becht]

The more I see, model-wise, the more pleased I am with these releases. I really like the potential of some of this new terrain for LoTR, as it seams more designed for skirmish games then the old Fantasy terrain (which I am sad to see go...except for Deathknell Watch...). I might just buy some of this stuff just for the aspect of the cool models/terrain.

The rules I am a little less impressed with. I'll play the game, with some minor rules modifications among my palls, but I don't expect to be doing pick-up games our tournaments, if the later even ever becomes an option. The game seams uniquely suited to friendly games (bar the obtuse measuring from model-to-model.) I also feel scenarios and narrative will help the game, but just playing the rules straight will not result in much fun...

From a business perspective I see the reasoning for some of the choices GW made, both model and game wise. I think it was the right choice of GW to do this, again, from a business perspective. Was it the best choice? No. The best choice would have been to use player feedback and bring out a 9th edition, update Brentonia, update Skaven...and maybe add in the Stormcast Eternals as a new army, utilizing some End Times fluff thingermabob to justify this new force. And, ya know...not break the norm ad just let the good guys win, beat back Chaos, and have Chaos come back some time later, stronger then ever... But this is GW: they would have never done any of that in a million years. But then we said the same thing about free rules...and look what happened (discounting how much of a crapshoot they are).

I'm excited very much for the much more affordable prospect of getting into Fantasy... it's just this might not have been the Fantasy I wanted to get into. I'll have to see though; with my busy schedule it won't be till late next week that I can try out the game. Then I can give my final opinion.

[Erik Setzer]

taken the plunge and ordered enough round bases to do all my ogre infantry and characters. mostly they will still rank up anyway if I don't embrace Age of Sigmar, or more likely, my opponent doesn't. only problem is the characters seem to be on 50mm bases in the pic. not sure what I will go for, got 40mm for everyone, and three 50mm as well in case I decide to put the characters on them.

I'd say it's a "gut feeling" thing. For the Dwarfs, I have all characters on 32mm except a small Slayer who's on 25mm. For the Orcs and Goblins, I have a Black Orc on a 32mm base, couple Goblins on 25mm (way too small for 32mm), and an Orc on 40mm (Games Day Orc from a few years ago, he had a round base to start with, I never got around to assembling him until now). If you think they look better on 50mm, go for that, though keeping them on 40mm would help for continued WFB play (or even KoW play).

I might rebase my Ogres... Didn't get them painted yet, because I bought them right before ET: Archaon, thinking it would have Orcs, Goblins, and Ogres all together. AoS allows that, so maybe I'll just switch them over anyway. I just hate wasting all those bases, but eh, that's the breaks. Looks like 40mm bases aren't that cheap regardless of why I get them from, so might as well stick with GW bases.

Speaking of ranking them, did come across this:

http://www.litko.net/products/Skirmish-Trays-for-40mm-Round-Bases-(All-Patterns).html#.VZbPWvlVhBc

They also have ones for 25mm bases, for 10 or even 20, so pretty each to have a formed regiment. Not bad on pricing, either. And since GW's War of the Rings trays are sold out or no longer available, have to go elsewhere anyway.

[Kirsten]

there are some good companies out there making movement trays with a range of sizes for circular bases. I found one compnay, can't remember which, where you had a choice of having the bases flush with one another, or spaced a few mil, to aid with ranking up bulky models. you just selected how many ranks deep and files wide you wanted them

[Erik Setzer]

Well, I'm ready for midnight, to figure out rules for these guys and then give a few trial runs to see how it plays.

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Dwarfs:
Lord with axe and pistol
Lord with axe and shield
Engineer
Runesmith
2x Slayer hero
10 Ironbreakers
10 Slayers
10 Thunderers
16 Thunderers
8 Miners
12 Warriors
2x Cannon

Orcs & Goblins:
Black Orc Hero
Orc Hero
Savage Orc Shaman
Goblin Shaman
Night Goblin Shaman
10 Black Orcs
10 Arrer Boyz
10 Orcs w/ 2 hand weapons
10 Savage Orcs w/ 2 hand weapons
15 Night Goblins w/ short bow

Not exactly balanced against each other, since it's mostly what I could scrounge for Orcs (I'm not taking apart my painted army). I figure this should allow for testing melee units, ranged units, heroes, magic, and artillery.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

If you can take whatever models you like then I guess my tomb kings serpent host will be playable, does anyone know what the right round base equivilent for the charriot bases would be? I much prefer the round ones and never glued them to the ones they came with anyway..

[40kGamer]

Forget the round bases. I blew the dust off of 15 year old armies to get ready for the new rules. :)

Hopefully they're good... I'm also hoping for a WOTR style supplement in the future to bring in movement trays and more massive battles. I don't want to push 100-200 figs around individually.

[Wargamer]

More pictures from /tg/

[Mr Mystery]

Refers to a guide rather than rules....

That's an interesting turn of phrase.

[Erik Setzer]

Refers to a guide rather than rules....

That's an interesting turn of phrase.

It's more "friendly," especially if they're going for just narrative games with no set structure just to allow people to tell a story with their miniatures.

- - - Updated - - -

Meanwhile:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/blog/blog.jsp;jsessionid=81EFF9582B5FC8605F5943FE2B5A19 95

"This issue of White Dwarf also includes a four-page pull-out containing all the rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar."

So there it says rules, and says it's ALL the rules.

Can we PLEASE stop this nonsense with acting like the four pages are just some starter set rules only intended for intro games? Now we have GW's official website saying that's all the rules. It's not a scan or copy of an email, not rumors from whatever-reliability rumor mongers. It's the official company, saying officially, THESE ARE ALL THE RULES.

[Tomgar]

Mantic are releasing Kings of War 2nd Ed for free next Friday. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Y'know, once we're all done licking each others' balls and such.

[Erik Setzer]

GW's site has converted their Warhammer section to Age of Sigmar and has the armies broken down by "faction" (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction) and race. You can see the names for the races, and see who matches up with who in the new setting.

I'm still shaking my head at "Orruk," "Ogor," and "Troggoth."

Seraphon are indeed Lizardmen.

It seems they're still sorting it, though. I clicked on Beastmen, saw only 8 products with some key ones missing (i.e. Centigors), then clicked on something else, noticed the numbers for Beastmen had changed, and Centigors were showing then. So don't assume anything's gone until a few hours have passed.

- - - Updated - - -

Also interesting to see classifications: Hero, Monster, Priest, Engineer, Wizard, War Machine. I'm guessing there'll be some rules that apply to Priest and Engineer characters in the warscrolls.

Sure, we'll know in a few hours, but it's fun to guess right now!

[Trojan66]

Dark elves. Sitting nicely under forces of order so all swell in the world...still as Mr mystery has been routinely telling us for months, there's no major shake up of the game coming up...why would they do that , it doesn't make business sense !
Needs a cricket bat in his balls not a pair of lips...

- - - Updated - - -

And can someone remind me why the race names had to change ?

[Tomgar]

All out on New Zealand's site. No points values, 4pg rulebook and Warscrolls is all you get. Like I've been saying from the start. Hard not to look smug right now.

Ah, bugger it.

*adopts the smug face*

[Kirsten]

between alliance, faction, and race, that is a lot of classifications, I wonder if it means anything.

[Trojan66]

Any of the scenery coming out straight away ?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Trying to think of some Stormcast Eternal colour schemes, any ideas from you guys?

[Trojan66]

Yeah, paint the blue and call them ultra storm cast eternal marines

[Houghten]

Mr mystery...you have to admit my rumours certainly came true . Not a liar at all.

No. NO. Bad dog. You don't get to make a prediction, turn around and say "only spit balling," now turn around AGAIN and go "lol, I wasn't making it up after all."

**** off and never **** back again. You and your ridiculous flip-flops are in the list of the top five worst things to happen to the News and Rumours forum.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think I'll paint mine in an oxidised bronze scheme.

[YourSwordisMine]

"This Starter Set is the perfect place to begin collecting miniatures in the fantastical, war-torn realms of the Age of Sigmar."

Not play... collect...

I think that's pretty telling...

OH yeah, and Starter Set. That also seems to be interesting.

[Kirsten]

it is all up in the air at the moment really, who knows what will happen over the next few months

[Spider-pope]

Weirdly, Lizardmen are also listed under the Daemon race category now. Either a mistake, or Lizardmen are getting even more of a change that i thought.

[Erik Setzer]

Ah, war machines are still multiple models. Fair enough. I'll just mark wounds on crew.

If I understand the rules right, a Dwarf Cannon can shoot a unit up to 32" away, hits on a 4+, wounds on 2+, will do D6 damage if it gets through, and has a -2 to the opponent's save. Now, the interesting thing is that the opposing unit would only make one save there. If a unit of Sigmarines was hit, and made a single 5+ save (3+, -2 Rend, = 5+), then no damage would occur. If the save is failed, the cannon does D6 wounds to unit, potentially killing up to six models.

[Alex Knight]

Looking at the warscrolls, certainly some interesting things. I don't see myself rebasing my existing armies for AoS, since basing doesn't matter. It'll leave them rankable for other systems. But I do see putting together a small warband of Wood Elves and basing them on a round. Almost considering using the 30mm lipped bases you see many skirmish games running.

[Bigred]

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Free Rules & Warscrolls
...are out!


Rules
Age of Sigmar Rules (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/warhammer-aos-rules-en.pdf)

Warscrolls
Beastmen (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-beastmen-en.pdf)

Bretonnia (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-bretonnia-en.pdf)

Daemons of Chaos (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-daemons-of-chaos-en.pdf)

Dark Elves (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-dark-elves-en.pdf)

Dwarfs (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-dwarfs-en.pdf)

The Empire (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-the-empire-en.pdf)

High Elves (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-high-elves-en.pdf)

Lizardmen (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-lizardmen-en.pdf)

Ogre Kingdoms (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-ogre-kingdoms-en.pdf)

Orcs & Goblins (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-orcs-and-goblins-en.pdf)

Scenery (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-scenery-en.pdf)

Skaven (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-skaven-en.pdf)

Tomb Kings (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-tomb-kings-en.pdf)

Vampire Counts (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-vampire-counts-en.pdf)

Warriors of Chaos (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-warriors-of-chaos-en.pdf)

Wood Elves (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-wood-elves-en.pdf)

[Houghten]

Looking at the warscrolls, certainly some interesting things.

Indeed.

Orc musicians grant extra charge distance but only if you yell WAAAAGH!

If Settra the Imperishable is your General, and you kneel for any reason, you lose the game. (Also, his Command ability involves saying "War!" in your most imperious voice.)

Greasus bribing enemy units is reflected with you literally bribing your opponent.

Kraggi can re-roll unbinding attempts if you are younger than your opponent.

Bloodwrack Medusas get a bonus if you manage to look your opponent in the eye.

One of the High Elf formations grants you a bonus as long as you never crack a smile.

If the Screaming Bell rolls 13 on 2d6, you win the game.

Waywatchers using Fast Shots get another shot whenever they roll a 6 to hit. Theoretically infinite shots!

Grail Knights get a bonus if you hold a grail or goblet aloft and shout "For the Lady!"

Sigvald re-rolls saves if you hold a mirror while rolling the dice, but if the re-rolls come up "1" he spends the round preening instead of attacking.



It all promises to be gloriously silly.

[Chronowraith]

I'm actually okay with a lot of this. I still want some sort of army building rules beyond, "take stuff" but I'm willing to give these rules a shot at least. The skaven stuff seems pretty cool actually.

[Erik Setzer]

So, I decided to give it a little test game with the models I'd thrown together. I sort of screwed up the balance by having an equal number of Orcs and Dwarfs. So lesson 1: Balancing armies will be a PITA.

Points to consider:

1. There's no rule saying you have to charge what you shoot. You can shoot one unit and charge another.
2. You're not "locked in combat." Coupled with #1, that provides a funny situation where you can shoot out of combat, then fight in combat. But you can also shoot the unit you're right up against.
3. Heroes can wreck units. Certain heroes will wreck other heroes. Bloody Dwarf Lord's D3 wounds with his weapon will maul an enemy hero, even if he only has four attacks (I say "only" because the Orc Warboss has six with his basic weapon, eight if you give him two, but I like the shield for him because the reroll helped him at times).
4. Cannons are evil. If you have full crew, you actually get two shots, with each doing D6 wounds (if they get past the save).
5. The random order for turns can really mess with a game plan and swing a battle. The Orcs were on the ropes (still lost eventually, but see balance note above), but got the initiative a couple turns in a row and were able to try to get back into things.

It's a fast game. Seriously. I had 49 models on each side, was flipping through the warscrolls and rules on my Kindle, and still didn't take that long for six turns. (I decided it was okay to end it there given that all that was left was a wounded Night Goblin Shaman, a Savage Orc Shaman, 10 Thunderers, and a Cannon.) If you have all the rules printed out and have the warscrolls printed and just pull out the ones you're using, it'll go insanely fast, especially once you start remembering a unit's stats, which is pretty easy.

The thing that will add the most complexity and slow a game most is that pretty much every unit has some kind of special rule. Standards and musicians almost all act different, and champions don't always act the same (i.e. sometimes they give +1 attack, and sometimes just +1 to all to hit rolls, even in a melee unit). Even then, it's not that rough.

It's definitely not Warhammer, the balance issue will drive you nuts, but if you want to just throw dice and don't care that much, it's good for a quick, simple match.

[daboarder]

Indeed.

Orc musicians grant extra charge distance but only if you yell WAAAAGH!

If Settra the Imperishable is your General, and you kneel for any reason, you lose the game. (Also, his Command ability involves saying "War!" in your most imperious voice.)

Greasus bribing enemy units is reflected with you literally bribing your opponent.

Kraggi can re-roll unbinding attempts if you are younger than your opponent.

Bloodwrack Medusas get a bonus if you manage to look your opponent in the eye.

One of the High Elf formations grants you a bonus as long as you never crack a smile.

If the Screaming Bell rolls 13 on 2d6, you win the game.

Waywatchers using Fast Shots get another shot whenever they roll a 6 to hit. Theoretically infinite shots!

Grail Knights get a bonus if you hold a grail or goblet aloft and shout "For the Lady!"

Sigvald re-rolls saves if you hold a mirror while rolling the dice, but if the re-rolls come up "1" he spends the round preening instead of attacking.



It all promises to be gloriously silly.

oh god, you're not even joking

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Konrad von Carstein gets a buff if you talk to him, and a different one if he talks back. I assume you have to do the voice.

Nagash's hand of dust has you hiding a dice in one hand, putting both hands out to your opponent and asking them to guess which hand it's in. If they get it wrong, the model dies.

This is beautiful lunacy. I love it.

[daboarder]

Konrad von Carstein gets a buff if you talk to him, and a different one if he talks back. I assume you have to do the voice.

Nagash's hand of dust has you hiding a dice in one hand, putting both hands out to your opponent and asking them to guess which hand it's in. If they get it wrong, the model dies.

This is beautiful lunacy. I love it.

I actually cant stop laughing, this is hillarious but I suspect NOT for the reason GW hopes.....HAHA

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I like it!

Being real for a second, this seems to be aimed squarely at the (large and growing) board gaming (including things like card and roleplaying games) crowd. Age of Sigmar seems to be much more about having fun battles with your mates than anything more serious than that. Which appeals to me immensely - I know others will have the opposite reaction, and you're not wrong to do so. We have different tastes and this definitely isn't aimed at the people who like tournaments, rigorous number-crunching and list-building. Which is a shame even for a player like me - that was a big appeal of Warhammer (even over 40k). I honestly don't think this is a bad orientation for this product at all, though. They want to get new people playing, they want to tap into the board-gaming renaissance we're undergoing. They want to get outside the "core" wargaming market. I think Age of Sigmar stands a good chance of doing so.

As Tom Walton (GW figure designer) said on twitter, it's not just for Warhammer fans, it's for everybody.

Oh and they've just made the entire ruleset, including rules for every model, available entirely for free. For free. GW. F r e e.

[daboarder]

I like it!

Being real for a second, this seems to be aimed squarely at the (large and growing) board gaming (including things like card and roleplaying games) crowd. Age of Sigmar seems to be much more about having fun battles with your mates than anything more serious than that. Which appeals to me immensely - I know others will have the opposite reaction, and you're not wrong to do so. We have different tastes and this definitely isn't aimed at the people who like tournaments, rigorous number-crunching and list-building. Which is a shame even for a player like me - that was a big appeal of Warhammer (even over 40k). I honestly don't think this is a bad orientation for this product at all, though. They want to get new people playing, they want to tap into the board-gaming renaissance we're undergoing. They want to get outside the "core" wargaming market. I think Age of Sigmar stands a good chance of doing so.

As Tom Walton (GW figure designer) said on twitter, it's not just for Warhammer fans, it's for everybody.

Oh and they've just made the entire ruleset, including rules for every model, available entirely for free. For free. GW. F r e e.


Sure seems fun and silly....probably for about a month.

Your welcome to like it but its not the kind of game id put a few hundred bucks and hundreds of hours of prep time into thats for sure.

Its good that the rules are free but free doesnt excuse them being fair ridiculous. Infinity and soon KOW both have free complex and detailed rules systems.

This aint going to scratch my wargaming itch



Deployment: Chaos player sets down a Screaming Bell. Other player sets down whatever. Chaos player sets down Fateweaver. The only chance the other player has to not instantly lose is to end deployment RIGHT NOW, take the first turn, and destroy the Screaming Bell (Oracle of Eternity ignores whether or not Fateweaver is alive). Otherwise, Chaos player ends deployment and seizes the first turn.

Turn 1, Hero Phase: Roll for Screaming Bell's Peal of Doom. Use Oracle of Eternity to declare that the roll is 13. Instant win, before the first movement phase.

The worst part, the worst part, is that the "Player 2 deploys 1 unit and tries to take down the Bell before it goes off" strategy has an obvious hard counter: The Chaos player can deploy a second Screaming Bell after Player 2 has declared they are deploying only 1 unit.

[Alaric]

oh god, you're not even joking

Too much silliness for the serious scientist :P

[Tomgar]

It's fine if this isn't a game for Warhammer fans. But where are Warhammer fans to go? It certainly isn't GW (inb4 "hurr durr just play 8th hurrr"), so I can only assume the GW design team are happy for us all to bugger off to Kings of War.

It would've been cool for this to exist AS WELL AS Fantasy, but given that it's not the case, and given that we were given zero communication for the many months we've had concerns about this, I'm gonna tell GW to go eat a fat jobby as I browse miniatures games from other companies that actually know how to keep their customers satisfied. I have no sense of brand loyalty tying me to whatever GW make, so I'm totally happy to tell them to bugger off.

[daboarder]

Too much silliness for the serious scientist :P

kinda yeah

I mean this does look funny as hell (in a good and bad way) and if it had been say a series of "skirmish" rules printed in white dwarf it would have been glorious. (like the old bugmans bar beer service game) but as a core wargame? I just .....HAHAHA

[cptjoeyg]

So I wonder....if GW can release all the factions/Races new rules for AoS, why couldn't they do that with earlier editions?

[Alaric]

kinda yeah

I mean this does look funny as hell (in a good and bad way) and if it had been say a series of "skirmish" rules printed in white dwarf it would have been glorious. (like the old bugmans bar beer service game) but as a core wargame? I just .....HAHAHA

Isnt the core 40k now tho? As long as it floats the company they can do stuff like this I guess. No wacky rules for Brettonia tho...except it looks like I'm going to have to invest in a pimp cup to toast the lady.

[40kGamer]

So I wonder....if GW can release all the factions/Races new rules for AoS, why couldn't they do that with earlier editions?

It just wasn't a part of the plan. :p

- - - Updated - - -


oh god, you're not even joking

This is my new favorite drinking game... definitely not one to be taken on while sober. ;)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You can't use Fateweaver's ability to declare that the roll is a 13, because you can't roll 13. In the same manner you can't declare it's five hundred and seventy either. That one's a joke.

[daboarder]

You can't use Fateweaver's ability to declare that the roll is a 13, because you can't roll 13. In the same manner you can't declare it's five hundred and seventy either. That one's a joke.

I invoke the most important rule

And use a SECOND fateweaver to change that roll


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6JHaBVySTA

HEHE

[silashand]

oh god, you're not even joking

I am *so* not even bothering with this garbage... sigh

[admiraldick]

Hey all,

I noticed on the AoS video some pretty clear shots of what I guess is the Orphidian Archway, so thought I'd post the screen caps for everyone.

Sorry if pictures of them have already been posted, I looked through this thread, but it's getting pretty sprawling now, so I may have missed them.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Okay, daboarder, you win this one~ :p

[40kGamer]

Even after reading through the rules and scrolls I still have absolutely no idea how one would even attempt to have roughly equivalent armies. I may have to upgrade from ale to moonshine.

[daboarder]

Okay, daboarder, you win this one~ :p

hehe ;)

[40kGamer]

Here's a full review of Age of Sigmar from an advance copy GW provided the author.

http://taleofpainters.blogspot.com/2015/07/review-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-starter.html

After giving the warscrolls a shot and trying to play through a game I'm totally on board with his Overall Conclusion quoted below. Sad as I was hoping for something a little more special.


"Modern, reactive gameplay, that keeps both players occupied no matter whose turn it is; decent intern and extern balancing; a tight yet intuitive ruleset that provides a slick gaming experience no matter whether in casual pick up games or competative games – all of this can't be found in Age of Sigmar. It appears to me that Games Workshop has lost the sense of what people's expectation from a tabletop game of today.

Instead, it’s a bring all you got, free for all, like playing 40k unbound without caring for point costs. I've never seen anyone play a game like this honestly, apart from maybe 12 year olds. It seems to me that one of the iron laws of tabletop gaming is to bring two even armies to a battle. Age of Sigmar breaks with that rule, and while a tabletop game is always a social affair, and you are encouraged to have a chat with a potential opponent before a game, it can create all sorts of problems. Not only does it seem that you might spend more time discussing the army selection with your opponent, than actual gaming. How can you ever be sure whether a game is fair or not? I'm sure, the lack of point values alone might be a deal-breaker for most people who already have experience with other tabletop games.

Age of Sigmar might struggle to find its place in today's tabletop industry. The lack of communication from Games Workshop has left existing Fantasy players in the dark about the future of their system, even now they still don't know, whether this box is it, or whether there will be more or expanded "expert level" rules, or where the journey will go for Age of Sigmar. Maybe the next couple of White Dwarfs will shed some light. They better do, before people lose their interest and move on."

[Path Walker]

Its a game for people who have the maturity to play a game for its own sake, because its not even trying to be balanced competitively, you can't break it, there isn't any point to breaking it.

I'm so happy with it, even more for the sweet salty tears of nerd rage.

Again, 12 year olds are the target demo. Get that sweet Christmas and Birthday money.

[daboarder]

well congratulations path Im glad you enjoy it, plenty of other however clearly do not, maybe NOT disparaging their opinions for just being different would be the mature thing?

[Path Walker]

so....path is 12?


that would explain a lot. well congratulations path Im glad you enjoy it, plenty of other however clearly do not, maybe NOT disparaging their opinions for just being different would be the mature thing?

Its not my problem if they don't like the game, that's theirs, either move on to something else or play the game you like. That's the mature response. Throwing a hissy fit over a game of toy soldiers? Not so much.

[daboarder]

Its not my problem if they don't like the game, that's theirs, either move on to something else or play the game you like. That's the mature response. Throwing a hissy fit over a game of toy soldiers? Not so much.

If the game of toy soldiers is so unimportant to you, why then are you throwing a hissy fit about others apparently throwing a hissy fit. Would that not make your own actions equally illogical and ridiculous?

If it means so little importance why do you even participate in the community at all?

[eldargal]

Its not my problem if they don't like the game, that's theirs, either move on to something else or play the game you like. That's the mature response. Throwing a hissy fit over a game of toy soldiers? Not so much.

Yup. I don't know what to make of it, if only because I just woke up and nothing makes any sense. Not going to base my opinion on some guy from a painting blog I've never heard of who doesn't like it because it doesn't meet his arbitrary and subjective definitions of what the laws of tabletop gaming are.

[removed]

- - - Updated - - -

I mean:

. I can't tell you much about the gameplay, because I'm not a gamer. The core mechanics of Warhammer have been changed a lot.

[Erik Setzer]

"Deployment: Chaos player sets down a Screaming Bell. Other player sets down whatever. Chaos player sets down Fateweaver. The only chance the other player has to not instantly lose is to end deployment RIGHT NOW, take the first turn, and destroy the Screaming Bell (Oracle of Eternity ignores whether or not Fateweaver is alive). Otherwise, Chaos player ends deployment and seizes the first turn.

Turn 1, Hero Phase: Roll for Screaming Bell's Peal of Doom. Use Oracle of Eternity to declare that the roll is 13. Instant win, before the first movement phase."

Well, you can't roll 13 on 2D6 without a modifier, and since no modified can be added, you can only declare a 12 (still a free Verminlord), meaning no, you can't get instant win, unless you're trying to cheat... and should be rightly called out as the rule says.

[daboarder]

but fateweaver lets me change the roll to any result I want.

And if you want to argue I will invoke the most important rule that states rules disputes are settled on a 4+

at which point my SECOND fateweaver ensures I win the dispute

:P

all very above the board

[Erik Setzer]

So I wonder....if GW can release all the factions/Races new rules for AoS, why couldn't they do that with earlier editions?

They did. In 6th edition you had Ravening Hordes, which had rules for all existing armies at the time of release.

Granted, they did later army books for the armies, expanding on that. But yeah, they did do a release for all the existing armies at the time.

- - - Updated - - -


but fateweaver lets me change the roll to any result I want.

And if you want to argue I will invoke the most important rule that states rules disputes are settled on a 4+

at which point my SECOND fateweaver ensures I win the dispute

:P

all very above the board

And then you STILL lose AND you get to be called a cheater. So is that worth it?

- - - Updated - - -


I mean:

Well, if the rules are designed to bring in new blood, then that's the sort of person you'd aim for. Especially if you're trying to sell the idea of it being a hobby of collecting and painting models with a side dish of gaming just to have something to do with the models other than look pretty on a shelf.

[daboarder]

And then you STILL lose AND you get to be called a cheater. So is that worth it?



well lets be fair, we both lost when we agreed to sit down and play a game of AoS


Bad Dum Tish!

its rather ridiculous, but its a ridiculous game and has me in a silly mood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Npo0cmp-VY

[Anggul]

(inb4 "hurr durr just play 8th hurrr")

Why not? It's only this attitude that will stop people from doing so.

There's no reason we can't just continue to play 8th edition. I certainly will be. GW were never going to balance and make everything good anyway, what difference does it make? I would much rather we did stuff ourselves than rely on them. The main thing is they'll still be updating models. We can continue to play 8th and still get updates of older kits made for Age of Sigmar.

Many of us enjoyed 8th. A lack of further updates doesn't stop it from being enjoyable. It's no different to people making private servers when the servers of a good game go down. If GW never acknowledged the end of Fantasy, but just didn't produce any new rules and didn't say anything about it, there wouldn't be this kind of backlash. Discontent after a while as people caught on yes, but not like this.

I love Fantasy, and it's a shame, but the game was dying. It was a good game, but most people couldn't be bothered to learn it, so it wasn't selling. They had to change it to be a more simple skirmish game like 40k to attract customers, it was either that or cancel it completely. This isn't about not knowing what their fans want, this is about not having enough fans for it to make enough money to keep going. I would much rather be stuck with 8th and still have model updates than have 8th and no model updates. It was a compromise to keep model production profitable. You can't continue a game that isn't making much money, or at least you can't justify it to shareholders. 'We have some fans that love the game but not many' isn't going to fly, so as much as it's a shame it's the only way.

[Flakknight]

On one hand, I do feel some loss with these changes and I can see how the die-hard WHFB players are immediately turned off by the unnecessary real life rules pieces involving yelling or mustaches. Even mtg kept this to the joke sets.

On the other hand, WHFB has been dying for such a huge number of reasons, some that aren't even its fault (the internet/digital entertainment, us recession) that I can't help but feel this is a huge regime change for GW and I'm still a bit flabbergasted by it all to make sense of what to do with my unit of 60 dwarf warriors.

However, some folks are giving up on it for the wrong reasons too quickly. If you want to wheel cavalry, I do feel sorry if you put years of time and effort into the game. But if you want a competitive game, I think we as players need to collectively reorient ourselves away from the safety net of points and rigidity.

Imagine a tournament with four warscrolls, fixed lists (ie no listing a unit of 100 and playing only 17 to avoid SD). What choices do you make? Take four dragon mages and hope to Teclis that you don't face a 40 block of slayers? Do you take minimum sized toolbox units? Should you list 20 dwarf warriors and feel good but might get overrun, do you risk listing 40 and potentially decline deployment to avoid SD or maybe you take 80 and say screw it and play around auto-SD for the opponent?

I think WHFB is dead, long live WHFB. I do think AoS will be too degenerate to play the old army comps and serious tournaments for some time. That said, free rules and scrolls are a good portent for more frequent and liberal updates.

I'll miss heavy cavalry charges in wedge formation but I'm eager to see if this can be fun and approachable enough to get new people into the hobby.

[Path Walker]

The game is unbreakable because its so breakable, it makes it pointless to play to win, so just play to enjoy it. For the sheer joy of rolling dice and moving around lovely models with your friends.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm actually okay with a lot of this. I still want some sort of army building rules beyond, "take stuff" but I'm willing to give these rules a shot at least. The skaven stuff seems pretty cool actually.

The Warscrolls have certainly made it all more interesting, due to unit special rules.

Got 30 Gnoblars? Screeching Horde gives them 3 attacks each. That one stuck in my brain as fun looking.

For me, it's all gonna be about the scenario. None in the core rules, but such things would, to my mind, be the best way to stop any given game just being a fairly mindless slugfest - but then that's not exactly anything new.

Now the big question....do I get the boxed set, or pick up a Batallion which should provide me with a new army I can plonk on the board...

Definitely time to give the gameplay a bash.

[Path Walker]

The starter set comes with 6 linked senarios and I assume we'll see more in WD and in the 6 monthly campaign boxes moving the story along

[Mr Mystery]

I guess.

Also managed to completely miss the Terrain and Scenery Warscrolls.

[Kirsten]

to some extent the balance will come from the way the wounds work. you can take an army of five bloodthirsters and go for a sudden death victory, but every unit you face is going to wound you on a 4+ or better from what I have seen, so you could be swamped very quickly. if you pick a sudden death objective, your opponent picks who your target is, so as long as they keep the target away from you, they can throw hordes of spearmen at your bloodthirsters and bring them down.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed.

And don't forget to apply the unwritten rule - don't be a penis about things.

[eldargal]

I'm hoping the rumours that AoS are like an introductory End Times thing in reverse are true. so we get AoS with simpler, throw everything together in a glorious hot mess then as the story progresses and the new order of things starts to be established we get more advances rules and so forth. Get people hooked with simplicity.

also one ofthe big stumbling blocks to getting newbies into WFB was the cost of buying a unit. Three boxes at least of basic troops for a single regiment and that might get your minimum core requirements or it might not. Now you can have much more asymmetrical armies and increase regiment size and you go along. Seems eminently sensible to me.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. This is accessible. Rules are free for all (never thought we'd see that), and with a single Batallion box, you've got a decent force to get started with.

Really liking how big monsters work now. The more messed up they get during the game, the less effective they become.

[eldargal]

Yup. Buy a Dragon and some cavalry and some war machines? got yourself an army. Buy some infantry and add to it as things go along? Still got an army. also thematic stuff is going to be easy now. Can throw a horde of witch elves and a few cauldrons and Morathi or whatever on the table and call it a day.

[Kirsten]

I am not really liking the weapon variations, particularly for my high elves. swordmasters and white lions have become pretty much redundant, phoenix guard are hitting and wounding the same, with the same number of attacks, and get a 4+ invulnerable save still.

other stuff works though, repeater bolt throwers are amazing.

[Path Walker]

30 Night Goblins is now enough for a unit, so I can get painting and not have to be bothered to do the hundreds I've got in bare plastic!

[Clewz]

not clear on this but am I right in presuming you can take anything in the grand alliances together? For instance Tomb Kings and Vampire counts in the death alliance

[Path Walker]

not clear on this but am I right in presuming you can take anything in the grand alliances together? For instance Tomb Kings and Vampire counts in the death alliance

You can take anything you want together, there are no restrictions

[Mr Mystery]

Time to get dressed and go poke my nose about in the shop.

[Anggul]

Time to get dressed and go poke my nose about in the shop.

Or only get half dressed, you might be playing ogres.

[YorkNecromancer]

Reading the rules for Age of Sigmar, I'm amazed; they're basically everything good from Epic Space Marine 2nd edition!

This is weird. That was a great game system. I might actually get into this.

Big might, but still, might.

[Al Shut]

Indeed.

And don't forget to apply the unwritten rule - don't be a penis about things.

But where's the line between a fair game, a slight advantage that is okay because in the end everybody wants to win and being the idiot that exploits the lack of a balancing mechanic?

[Path Walker]

Its so easy to break that there isn't really any point in it, I could drown you in hundreds Bloodthirsters or any number of silly things, when its so easy to do, whats the reward in it? It's a game, its so uncompetitive that there is nothing to gain by winning by abusing the opponent

[hamiltongeyser]

Its so easy to break that there isn't really any point in it, I could drown you in hundreds Bloodthirsters or any number of silly things, when its so easy to do, whats the reward in it? It's a game, its so uncompetitive that there is nothing to gain by winning by abusing the opponent

which is why you don't play hundreds of bloodthirsters and abuse the opponent: no gain.

the problem is solved when you refuse to play stupid powergamers.

[Mr Mystery]

But where's the line between a fair game, a slight advantage that is okay because in the end everybody wants to win and being the idiot that exploits the lack of a balancing mechanic?

Largely, the eye of the beholder. Those who forget it's a game, and meant to be fun for all will remain a problem.

[YorkNecromancer]

Has anyone noticed the rules for Sigvald the Magnificent? You get to reroll saves as long as you're looking at yourself in the mirror!

And the Lord of Slaanesh on Daemonic Mount? If your real-life opponent looks you in the eye during the assault, you get to subtract 1 from his to hit rolls in assault!

I wonder how many more of these crazy meta-rules there are?

EDIT: Cockatrice rules allow you to have a staring contest with your opponent to improve its dice rolls; of course, said rolls become more difficult if you lose.

This game is nuts. I totally approve.

[Houghten]

Loads. I listed a few here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?56937-Age-of-Sigmar-Rumor-Roundup&p=502312&viewfull=1#post502312).

[Al Shut]

Largely, the eye of the beholder. Those who forget it's a game, and meant to be fun for all will remain a problem.

My idea of a fun game is that both sides have a decent chance of winning. How do I not unintentionally unbalance the game, especially in smaller games that I prefer

[Kirsten]

it is going to be a nightmare balancing armies for people who do want a competitive game

[Path Walker]

My idea of a fun game is that both sides have a decent chance of winning. How do I not unintentionally unbalance the game, especially in smaller games that I prefer

Then don't unbalance the game?

[Mr Mystery]

My idea of a fun game is that both sides have a decent chance of winning. How do I not unintentionally unbalance the game, especially in smaller games that I prefer

Discuss it with your opponent.

[Path Walker]

it is going to be a nightmare balancing armies for people who do want a competitive game

I think GW and i agree that this is the competitive players problem now, not ours.

[Kirsten]

it is a pretty stupid move. wanting a competitive, balanced match is not some sort of personality flaw. you can have a perfectly relaxed, fun, game between two people with equal points who don't care about winning.

[grimmas]

Yay after a hard morning downloading and reading the, let's face it, substantially more than 4 pages of rules I believe we can cancel the apocalypse it all looks rather nice. I believe I may have a way of organising things in a more sensible way for competive play that is really rather easy. I need to do quite a lot more more checking and testing though I will put sonething up if it works.

[Al Shut]

Then don't unbalance the game?


Discuss it with your opponent.

I don't know how because there is nothing to go by aside from highly unreliable model count and my opponent is as clueless as me.

I'm talking about stuff like are 20 models enough for the unit or should I take 30, do I add another Ratling gun to even stand a chance againt my opponent or do I already have enough units and more would make the game unfair.

Am I really supposed to discuss every single unit choice with someone who is as interested in winning the game as I am?

[StingrayP226]

Discussing it with an opponent for balance is a TERRIBLE way to set up a game. Why? Because everyone has a different opinion on what is balance. Even non competitive players like to have a little balance.

For example lets take the new 40K Eldar codex. There were people saying it was grossly unbalanced, some said unbalanced but not auto-win, and then you had the ones (often Eldar players) saying it was perfectly balanced. Many of them were not being hostile or rude it was just how they perceived things. Depending on someone's favorite tactics/army their perspective is skewed so what person A thinks is balanced will not equal what person B thinks is balanced. Now without ANY sort of baseline (points/force limits) two players need to reach an agreement on what to play is going to be very hard. Once they finally agree on a game "size" (which now you have no base line for) they have to agree that their two armies are equal in strength, but depending on perspective this could turn a simple trying to have a good game into a balance discussion. If its two people just playing to roll dice and have fun with plastic toys... ok no limits is acceptable, but for any players who want to have fun and play a challenging game where both players feel like they have a chance to win with their tactics... it needs some balance to allow tactics to influence the game.

Sorry to all those Games Workshop fans until death but if this IS the new fantasy game (IE not just the starter rule set). Games Workshop just handed you the laziest rule set ever designed. Writing rules can be a little tough at times (easier now with so many other games to borrow ideas/concepts from), but the real challenge of any game is trying to balance it. A poorly balanced game is a poorly made game. It can have some good concepts, but if the creator leaves out one of the core components of a good game (some level of balance) just because they cannot be bothered with it, its pure laziness. I mean all they needed to do is take what they have written, tested them some, and give them point costs dependent of their performance compared to others and then you would have SOME level of balance. No rule rewrites or another page on the rule book. Just some time and effort...

As someone who plays several game systems the level of excitement over what appears to be a half finished (we hope), or worse half ***ed product is shocking.

[Path Walker]

By not even attempting the balance it, they've bypassed it completely and left it open for the players to sort out how they want it for a particular game. Balance is not a core component of a game. Fun is though, and this system is fun.

People are also thinking of things on old terms, a Cannon and some Hammerers took out a Keeper of Secrets in a turn, big things are much easier to knock wounds off than they were before, yeah, Archeon will kill 20 Grots if he gets in close but a few Spear Chukkas will put the hurt on him, the old stats are gone.

This is wargaming as GW have always preferred it, as a thing to use your collection of models for.

If you want a challenging and tactical balanced wargame, go elsewhere.

[Al Shut]

Oh, I'll do, that's what all the complaining ultimately boils down to.

[40kGamer]

it is a pretty stupid move. wanting a competitive, balanced match is not some sort of personality flaw. you can have a perfectly relaxed, fun, game between two people with equal points who don't care about winning.

Exactly. I have zero interest in building some over the top, sneaky rules exploiting army but I do want to have a way to balance the stupid game without going round and round with my opponent before playing. It'll only even work if you are playing in a tight circle, otherwise it's going to be more aggravation than fun. And the reason no points values works fine with a lot of historical games is that the players are usually building their armies from the exact same pool of units and there are no special abilities.

I will give games workshop full props for one thing. We've heard the "we're a model company not a game company" mantra forever and now we have actual proof that they truly believe this statement... and at some point they're spot on. If I see models I like from this I'll buy them even though at the moment I have no intention of wasting any time on these game mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -


Its a game for people who have the maturity to play a game for its own sake, because its not even trying to be balanced competitively, you can't break it, there isn't any point to breaking it.

I'm so happy with it, even more for the sweet salty tears of nerd rage.

Again, 12 year olds are the target demo. Get that sweet Christmas and Birthday money.

I believe you. 12 year olds are the only people I can see playing a game where you insult your opponent for a bonus, have both sides of a conversation with one of you heroes or carry around a mirror. Someone will need to start selling the fake moustaches for the young imperial players though since they don't shave just yet and hopefully none of the abilities hinge on consuming ale.

- - - Updated - - -


Yup. I don't know what to make of it, if only because I just woke up and nothing makes any sense. Not going to base my opinion on some guy from a painting blog I've never heard of who doesn't like it because it doesn't meet his arbitrary and subjective definitions of what the laws of tabletop gaming are.

Fair enough. But they must have done all of this to get new blood into their company and with that in mind this game makes no sense at all. Having a mechanism to build roughly equivalent armies is well established in the wargaming community so the bulk of this group of people are not going to be amused by this game. Boardgame players like structure even more than wargamers so having a total free for all like this won't get them excited... and new people may try it, but being new have zero idea on how to balance a game and could easily be put off by a couple unintended one sided matches. I just see no reason for them to not have some balancing mechanic that people can use as a guideline, and I really hope there is more to come.

- - - Updated - - -


Reading the rules for Age of Sigmar, I'm amazed; they're basically everything good from Epic Space Marine 2nd edition!

This is weird. That was a great game system. I might actually get into this.

Big might, but still, might.

2nd Ed EPIC... One of my favorite GW games! The big difference is that it has a specific army design mechanic with cards, unit sizes and points values. It is easy, elegant and fun while this is more of a hot mess.

[Al Shut]

And by the way, I know probably nobody here cares but the German rules are almost unreadable with their crude mix of German and English. Worse than ever before.

[Mr Mystery]

Discussing it with an opponent for balance is a TERRIBLE way to set up a game. Why? Because everyone has a different opinion on what is balance. Even non competitive players like to have a little balance.

For example lets take the new 40K Eldar codex. There were people saying it was grossly unbalanced, some said unbalanced but not auto-win, and then you had the ones (often Eldar players) saying it was perfectly balanced. Many of them were not being hostile or rude it was just how they perceived things. Depending on someone's favorite tactics/army their perspective is skewed so what person A thinks is balanced will not equal what person B thinks is balanced. Now without ANY sort of baseline (points/force limits) two players need to reach an agreement on what to play is going to be very hard. Once they finally agree on a game "size" (which now you have no base line for) they have to agree that their two armies are equal in strength, but depending on perspective this could turn a simple trying to have a good game into a balance discussion. If its two people just playing to roll dice and have fun with plastic toys... ok no limits is acceptable, but for any players who want to have fun and play a challenging game where both players feel like they have a chance to win with their tactics... it needs some balance to allow tactics to influence the game.

Sorry to all those Games Workshop fans until death but if this IS the new fantasy game (IE not just the starter rule set). Games Workshop just handed you the laziest rule set ever designed. Writing rules can be a little tough at times (easier now with so many other games to borrow ideas/concepts from), but the real challenge of any game is trying to balance it. A poorly balanced game is a poorly made game. It can have some good concepts, but if the creator leaves out one of the core components of a good game (some level of balance) just because they cannot be bothered with it, its pure laziness. I mean all they needed to do is take what they have written, tested them some, and give them point costs dependent of their performance compared to others and then you would have SOME level of balance. No rule rewrites or another page on the rule book. Just some time and effort...

As someone who plays several game systems the level of excitement over what appears to be a half finished (we hope), or worse half ***ed product is shocking.

You do understand what a conversation is, yes?

[Kirsten]

you can talk as much as you like, it still isn't going to fix the fundamental problem. you can discuss fun games, and set up particular scenarios, but you can't talk out two balanced armies with this ruleset.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet the troops remain much of a muchness. A Gobbo simply isn't as weedy as before, due to fixed dice rolls to do damage.

[Kirsten]

that fixed roll in itself throws out all sorts of issues, as you can't even use points from 8th edition to make a guesstimate

[Mr Mystery]

And now for some rumours....

Malekith will be packing Shadow Daemons, and the boss of Beasts is a fusion of Gork and Mork, rather than Grimgor.

Least ways that's what I'm told.

[Kirsten]

one thing I do like so far is the Bretonnian list. as far as this game system goes, they look pretty cool to me. here's hoping we see some plastic grail knights, trebuchet etc. at some point. They were rumoured last year, who knows, maybe they were held back for this. we can wish.

[Mr Mystery]

Harry has mentioned kits he saw a while back being ready to go.

And the terrain for AoS was spotted in Triumph and Treachery?

So yeah, hopefully Brets will get fun stuff soon. Certainly need it!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah, it's Gorkamorka. (Gorka! Morka! Gorka! Morka!)

I think a fair few of the Warscrolls are effectively placeholders because they wanted to give you rules for every model you might conceivably have. I don't think it's necessarily evidence that, say, Marius Leitdorf is alive in the Age of Sigmar just because he has a Warscroll.

Confirmed for survival so far are Sigmar, Nagash (and the Mortarchs, but then, they weren't alive anyway), Grungni and Grimnir (who might be Gotrek; if not the latter is still fighting eternally in the Realm of Chaos) and "Lord Tyrion". Whether "Lord Tyrion" is the Tyrion we know and love is another matter.

Oh, and Archaon, the World-Breaker.

[Kirsten]

Harry has mentioned kits he saw a while back being ready to go.

And the terrain for AoS was spotted in Triumph and Treachery?

So yeah, hopefully Brets will get fun stuff soon. Certainly need it!

one thing they do need now are new bases, because there aren't any round bases with slots for horses. so they either need new bases, or new horses. I can't do much with my knights until they do.

[Houghten]

You could saw a 25mm round base in half and glue one half to each end of the cavalry base.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It doesn't matter what bases your models are one, square, round, whatever. Bases are just there to look cool.

[Mr Mystery]

That could work.

And on the subject of bases - they're so ignored, you can cross an enemy base to get into range.

Wee bit clumsy, but prevents shenanigans with oversized bases.

[Kirsten]

You could saw a 25mm round base in half and glue one half to each end of the cavalry base.

that is a pain in the *** though


It doesn't matter what bases your models are one, square, round, whatever. Bases are just there to look cool.

it does matter though if you want your army to look unified and decent.


That could work.

And on the subject of bases - they're so ignored, you can cross an enemy base to get into range.

Wee bit clumsy, but prevents shenanigans with oversized bases.

you can, but it is still a stupid idea for a rule, base to base is the only way to play.

[Mr Mystery]

No issue doing that.

Very much a community based game. Lots of it appears focussed on having established opponents.

Also, check out the general Warhammer board....I want to adapt this for Warhammer Quest, and I don't think it will take much.

[Lexington]

Interesting stuff. It seems to me that a company in financial peril should probably try not to revise their products in a way that's an intentional middle finger to their existing customer base. This seems especially true for companies like GW, whose business models rely so heavily on network effects. Then again, what do I know?

[Mr Mystery]

Yet if the old one wasn't selling, you need to do something, no?

So far as we can tell, 40k remains on decent sales ground, so changing up Warhammer to what sells in the modern market is less of a risk, as they can always switch back to a 'proper' 9th Ed format?

[Al Shut]

so changing up Warhammer to what sells in the modern market is less of a risk

I don't know many of them, does any of the other games completely ditch points/balance system or is it more of an experiment?

[The Girl]

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[Deadlift]

[off topic - take complaints to PMs - thanks]

Back on topic, I bought AoS. I wasn't going to, the wife's going to be very annoyed as it's just another box of something sat on the shelf :). However my 8 year old was looking over my shoulder, mentioned she loved the look of the "gold ones" and any lingering doubt went poof. PayPal to the rescue. The rules look really simple. I like them, and I love the fact I can play this with the kids easily enough.

[silashand]

Yet if the old one wasn't selling, you need to do something, no?

Personally I would have started with trying to figure out *why* the old one wasn't selling before throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. But then again this is GW and that would have meant them actually having to *talk* to their customers to find out what was wrong.

[Spider-pope]

Had a good look at the starter set today, the models are absolutely fantastic, especially the chaos stuff. If we can have a unit of flesh hounds just like the lead villains pet, i'll be thrilled. The book is pretty nifty too, nicely laid out with some gorgeous artwork.
Played a couple of games with the new rules, using High Elves vs Lizardmen. It's certainly different, monsters losing effectiveness as they get hurt is a nice touch, but there are a lot of things that could use more clarity. Shooting into and out of combat for example. We ended up houseruling that you could shoot into combat, but not out of it since the units would be too busy to aim.

And as someone who has always been about the narrative gaming, i'm not too fussed about balance. I'm not sold on the game completely yet, and i'm still frankly pissed about the destruction of the Warhammer world, but i'm also relieved that the rumoured fluff has be revealed as complete bunkum.

[Insert_nickname_here]

So, umm...Lizardmen are all daemons then? I'm interested to see how that all pans out.

[Kirsten]

I wondered about that, I did notice in the rules stuff about summoning reserves, maybe lizardmen can be summoned like daemon psychic powers in 40k? I have no idea, just trying to think of reasons. maybe because they looks a bit like daemons compared to men? :p

[Spider-pope]

I wondered about that, I did notice in the rules stuff about summoning reserves, maybe lizardmen can be summoned like daemon psychic powers in 40k? I have no idea, just trying to think of reasons. maybe because they looks a bit like daemons compared to men? :p

Slann can summon Lizardmen. It would appear it's because they are being transitioned to Serephon, that are described as beings spawned from star dragons.

[Kirsten]

cool, not worked my way through all the lists yet

[YorkNecromancer]

Interesting stuff. It seems to me that a company in financial peril should probably try not to revise their products in a way that's an intentional middle finger to their existing customer base. This seems especially true for companies like GW, whose business models rely so heavily on network effects. Then again, what do I know?

Depends on the value of the old customer base vs. the value of the new, doesn't it?

After all, which is better: 100 hardcore customers who buy maybe one or two models to supplement their existing armies and complain about everything you do, or 200 customers who buy an army and drop out, never hanging around long enough to complain about everything you do?

At the end of the day, GW is a toy company; toys go through phases.

My go-to non-wargaming example is wrestling. WWE was last really popular from 1998 to 2002; its popularity has never got to the levels of that time (called the Attitude Era) since then. Why?

Name a star wrestler. The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, Randy Savage, John Cena, Randy Orton, Dave Bautista, HHH...

Not one of these guys started his career later than 2002. GW has completely stagnated. The only new stars (wrestlers being its key 'product') it's built since then have been Daniel Bryan and CM Punk - neither of whom a non-wrestling fan could most likely name. Wrestling has had its day. It's old, and not because wrestling sucks, but because the product hasn't evolved.

Businesses need to be sharks - not in the sense that they're predatory (though they are), but in that they die when they stop moving forwards. New customers will always be better than old, because when you're a toy company? Old customers don't buy your product in the same amount as new product. When you consider how poisonous a lot of GW's old customers are - how toxic their complaints, how complaining and moaning is part of the culture? I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want those people as my customers. Their money wouldn't be good enough for me, if it ends up losing me new guys to Infinity or Warmahordes or whatever.

So, is the existing customer base worth holding on to? The only answer is a tentative 'maybe'. There are pros for keeping them, but cons too, and that's not something the existing customer base likes to admit about itself. That maybe it's a hassle. Maybe it's not as valuable as it thinks it is.

That maybe the company doesn't need them either.

Just a thought.

[daboarder]

you know what else a business needs to do?


MARKET RESEARCH

thats how they figure out the right thing to sell to the most people. Its all just a proverbial leak in the breeze without it

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

14939

[Austin Becht]

14939

New models? Not bad. I'm liking the new Stormcasts. That paint scheme just makes them look horrendous...

I'm personally waiting to see what the new Lizardmen/Seraphon models are gonna look like. I kinda like the little bits of fluff I've heard on them, and am eager to see how well they fit with the old Lizardmen stuff. I always wanted to play Lizardmen, just never got around to collecting them.

[40kGamer]

you know what else a business needs to do?


MARKET RESEARCH

thats how they figure out the right thing to sell to the most people. Its all just a proverbial leak in the breeze without it

Thhpt. When your leadership are telepathic, and thus all knowing, market research is a complete waste of resources.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

New models? Not bad. I'm liking the new Stormcasts. That paint scheme just makes them look horrendous...

I'm personally waiting to see what the new Lizardmen/Seraphon models are gonna look like. I kinda like the little bits of fluff I've heard on them, and am eager to see how well they fit with the old Lizardmen stuff. I always wanted to play Lizardmen, just never got around to collecting them.

I can't match them to anything in the starter set contents, so I guess they must be something more to come (?)

Personally I think the Stormcasts would look cooler if paintschemes were more elemental in nature - like if the armour was made out of fire or ice. I kinda like the idea of them as burning elemental angels, a bit more God's Wrath :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_3WG76cww

[Erik Setzer]

The models looked nice up close, other than the Helbrute-style thing, though my main complaint with that is the skulls peeking out from inside its skin looking silly, and I can cover that with green stuff.

But the game? Nope. Just a big ol' bag of NOPE.

MAYBE with people I would literally trust my life to, but that's it.

It's not just from looking at the simple rules and the lack of points and the weird stuff in the warscrolls. I saw some people decide to play a multiplayer match of AoS today. First off, they decided, "Let's make it fair, five Warscrolls for everyone." Right. I won't do a full run down, but they were clearly not balanced, and kudos to the kid who took like thirty Ogres in a unit as a single warscroll.

Then they started just going nuts with the rules. I pretty much lost it on these last two:

"There's no rule that says a 1 is an auto-fail, so if I boost my to-hit rolls to a 1+, I auto-hit all the time!"

Well, technically, there's no rule about 1 being auto-fail or anything... but that should be common sense, right?

"Measure all attacks from the point of the weapon, i.e. a big monster's scorpion tail would measure range from that part of the model."

Um, no, that's not how the rule is meant to work. You use the weapon's range, yes, but the rules say all measurements come from any point of the model. Their interpretation, which multiple people at the table tried to back up, means that if you charged the Stormcast basic guys into combat with their shield facing the enemy (which just looks cool), then they could never attack in melee, as their hammer is more than 1" from the enemy model.

Add in the shenanigans with the rules for units, and the way people were interpreting summoned units to mean you have to have a unit you're going to summon as part of your starting force, and more besides, and it was soul-crushing. Some of the people playing weren't bad people, but that game brought out the darkest side of them, and I knew that I could never play it against them, because it would devolved into a horrible mess due to lack of structure or clear rules. (Funny how they were eager to claim 1+ is auto-succeed, and you measure range from weapons, but that the idea of being able to fire into and out of "combat" was just insane.)

I think watching people play the game actually turned off multiple people in the store. One person told me that even the manager basically gave up on the game after seeing it being played.

As a beer and pretzels thing with close friends who you can trust and discuss it with, okay, not horrible, though still feels like something aimed at ten-year-olds with the joke rules. (And seriously, I'm an Ork player who misses some of the fun old Ork stuff, but this is way too much.)

As a game you can play pick-up games with? Nope. Awful.

And it's even sadder that the people I'd trust to play the game with are all turned off on it anyway... so all the work I did putting together models during the week was pointless.

I get a bad feeling now that AoS will end up killing off the fantasy side of Warhammer, unless they release AoS 2nd Edition within a year and expand the rules and replace all the warscrolls. Especially with Mantic pushing hard to grab all the disheartened players.

[Austin Becht]

I can't match them to anything in the starter set contents, so I guess they must be something more to come (?)

Personally I think the Stormcasts would look cooler if paintschemes were more elemental in nature - like if the armour was made out of fire or ice. I kinda like the idea of them as burning elemental angels, a bit more God's Wrath :D


Yeah...my thoughts on their "Age of Sigmar" release schedule is this:

Week 1: Starter Box (obviously...).
Week 2: Terrain (this has been confirmed...).
Week 3: Additional units for Starter Box forces, possibly pouring into Week 4.

Anything after that is up to conjecture. Its been rumored hat we are going to see one or two months of non-stop "Age of Sigmar," so I'd expect that we'd see some of the core stuff come out, maybe starting out with a few units for each alliance (some for Orcer, ie. the Stormcast Eternals; some for Chaos, ie the Khorne warhost; some for Destruction, such as new Orcs; and some for Death, with some new undead units to fit the general theme of a combined undead force.) This would offer a good starting point for the game, alongisde all the existing Warhammer Fantasy stuff, and give their customers a general idea of what to expect from the game, and its miniatures, moving forward. Then I think we'll see snipit releases here and there, with campaigns pitting two or more races/alliances against each other, and a few weeks of releases based upon such races/alliances. I would also hedge to bet we'll see some Tzeentch stuff down the road when Tzeentch Daemonkin comes out, as has been heavily rumored. Would seam a pity if they don't piggyback of the Tzeentch hype there to release some stuff for Tzeentch in "Age of Sigmar." I mean they kinda did that with ET: Archeon into Khorne Daemonkin, or was it the other way around...? GW is releasing so many things so fast its hard to keep up...

I think the only race we might not see many releases for is Daemons; with the exception of updated models, there's no need for a to change their aesthetic. They might add new units down the line, but that's a far stretch when they could be filling out their slew of new armies.

And again, I'll state this is only my opinion. I'm in no way rumormongering, just stating what I think will happen.

As for my Sigmarites, I'm thinking of a more lightning-themed color scheme, to bring out that sort of theme of them. So whites, blues, and golds.

[Tomgar]

As a beer and pretzels thing with close friends who you can trust and discuss it with, okay, not horrible, though still feels like something aimed at ten-year-olds with the joke rules. (And seriously, I'm an Ork player who misses some of the fun old Ork stuff, but this is way too much.)



The really egregious thing about these "joke" rules is how forced it all seems. It's like they're desperately going "this is fun, see! Look how fun and random this all is! Guys? FUN!"

I already have fun when I play wargames, I don't need some lol randumb, Pewdiepie-esque nonsense codified into the actual mechanics as if I'm incapable of having fun otherwise. Hell, being told to ride an imaginary horse for bonuses is more likely to piss me off and make me feel embarrassed than make me feel some forced, fake sense of joviality. It's the mechanical equivalent of your uncle Dave who describes himself as "a bit of character" because he occasionally does cringeworthy BS like put his shoe on his head to show everyone how zany and wild (!!!) he is. It needs to get in the sea and bloody drown.

[Lexington]

Depends on the value of the old customer base vs. the value of the new, doesn't it?
A smart business in GW's position should know that it's not an either/or proposition, and they sure don't purposefully make it such .

New customers, once you have them hooked, can be much more valuable in their first few months than two or three existing customers will be for the rest of their lives. Thing is, though, you have to fight for those new customers. They have to be identified, brought to market and sold to - and at a success rate that's not exactly high. Selling to new customers, especially in a hobby market with a high cost of entry (yes, Warhammer is now theoretically less expensive than it used to be - it's still very costly), and for a company that loudly and proudly does zero marketing, is extremely difficult. People don't just materialize in GW stores, ready to put down a huge wad of cash for what, really, seems like not a lot of material in return. In fact, I'd bet the percentage of customers who walk into a GW store "cold" and walk out with a starter set makes up one of, if not the smallest percentage of GW's entry-level customer base. What, then, is almost certainly the largest?

People whose friends play.

Cast them as toxic, tantrum-throwing villains if you like (not hard, if you're looking at Warseer), but existing customers are GW's best marketing. To new eyes, they're just Steve, who plays that model game and won't shut up about it. Or Bill, down at the games store, who has that really well-painted army. Or, hell, they might be, D6haXXor, some faceless guy on a forum dedicated to this "Warhammer" thing you've been hearing about. They're your point of first contact with Warhammer, and they'll have a huge impact on your decision to buy that starter set or not. If these guys all feel shafted by GW's new direction - and insulted by the dumb rules given to their armies - they're going to let you know about it, and you'll come away thinking this "Age of Sigmar" stuff is just nonsense for morons. Or, even worse for GW, you won't hear about it at all. Either they're talking about GW's competitors, or they're investing their energy into video games, paintball, semi-professional chainsaw arts, etc. That potential new customer base takes their money and goes elsewhere with it.

That's the network effect, and it's a huge part of how gaming grows and spreads across new customers. In the same way, every player who quits Warhammer in disgust is one less opponent for the people who still play, which could well lead to them leaving, and so on and so on until individual communities crumble away into nothing. That's already happening, but it's still inadvisable for GW to completely disregard (and more or less insult) their existing player base - all they're doing is giving business, and the business of the people these disgruntled customers bring into the hobby, to companies like Privateer and Corvus Belli.


The really egregious thing about these "joke" rules is how forced it all seems. It's like they're desperately going "this is fun, see! Look how fun and random this all is! Guys? FUN!"
Yeah, this has been my observation, too. Funny rules can be great in small doses (people still talk about jamming as many Orks as they could into a 2nd Edition Battlewagon), but they work best when they give a little character to the experience or to a single army. Tossing them in at every turn like they have feels like...well...

14940

[Wargamer]

Found this on the web. Dunno if it its old news to some:
http://youtu.be/mFCKQ60yFis
@5:10 or so

[Tomgar]

Honestly man, for all that you quip about the folks at Warseer throwing tantrums over this, they're the only ones who seem to be feeling as pissed off as me. I'm actually shocked at how aggressively positive most people are about this game. As in, voicing your misgivings is likely to get you dogpiled and insulted multiple times. I'm glad at least the Warseer crowd are showing me that I'm not alone in utterly friggin' hating this game.

[Spider-pope]

Found this on the web. Dunno if it its old news to some:
http://youtu.be/mFCKQ60yFis
@5:10 or so

The terrain is pretty nice, but it's made out of the same crappy plastic that the giant plasma cannon thing was, so i would expect warping.

[Trojan66]

Has anyone noticed the price of the new spray paint for your sigmarite marines ?
It's £17 v £11.75 normal sprays.
Hope that's not a sign of things to come

[Houghten]

I think it's just because gold.

We got three new paint pots, too, and the two gold ones are £3.50 but the flesh one is £2.55. Also Corax White spray came out a couple of weeks ago and it's £10.40.

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The terrain is pretty nice, but it's made out of the same crappy plastic that the giant plasma cannon thing was, so i would expect warping.

Are you sure? It's on an actual sprue instead of in bags...

[Mr Mystery]

Saw a sprue sprayed with the Gold yesterday. Given the only metallic sprays I've used in the past were Tin Bitz and Boltgun Metal, I was impressed.

£17 impressed? Not 100% on that, but impressed all the same.

[Trojan66]

I think it's just because gold.

We got three new paint pots, too, and the two gold ones are £3.50 but the flesh one is £2.55. Also Corax White spray came out a couple of weeks ago and it's £10.40.

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Are you sure? It's on an actual sprue instead of in bags...

Gold paint doesn't actually contain gold...you know that , right ?

[Houghten]

I meant it's difficult to get right, you clown.

[Spider-pope]

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Are you sure? It's on an actual sprue instead of in bags...

Unfortunately yes. My local GW has a set out so i had a good ogle at it. It's the same kind of plastic.

[eldargal]

Honestly man, for all that you quip about the folks at Warseer throwing tantrums over this, they're the only ones who seem to be feeling as pissed off as me. I'm actually shocked at how aggressively positive most people are about this game. As in, voicing your misgivings is likely to get you dogpiled and insulted multiple times. I'm glad at least the Warseer crowd are showing me that I'm not alone in utterly friggin' hating this game.

I'm shocked at how aggressively negative people are over a game 99% of them haven't even played yet. No wait, I'm not because this exact same debate happens every edition of WFB.

[Kirsten]

I'm shocked at how aggressively negative people are over a game 99% of them haven't even played yet. No wait, I'm not because this exact same debate happens every edition of WFB.

and every edition of 40k. and every army book, codex, new model release... :p

[Mr Mystery]

Not sure if I'm being a weirdo again, but when I don't like something, I don't tend to go on and on and on about it.

But to slightly mangle a song quote



It ain't 9th Edition for us, or for you
If we can't enjoy it, then neither will you

[Houghten]

Unfortunately yes. My local GW has a set out so i had a good ogle at it. It's the same kind of plastic.

Crapsichord. There goes any chance whatsoever they had of selling me any terrain.

[eldargal]

and every edition of 40k. and every army book, codex, new model release... :p

Yup. That's why I struggle to take the doomsdaying seriously.

[Xaric]

people treat it as bad because there looking at all the negative points they hate about something people need to take the opportunity to view its pros and cons because those who look at something badly will treat it badly.

Pros to this game is I can play with multiple people in quick succession hope I can get 3 of my friends play 2 games of 1v1 then a 2v2 with the follow up bonus rules for winning would make for a interesting fluff narrative :D

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

To answer a few concerns.
I have now played 5 games of AoS, relatively small. We've found that not being a bell end balances the game itself. Also, the game is great fun, easy set up, nice strategy in the combat phase, and it is just more interesting to play.
If anything, it plays more like the Hobbit than anything else.

I was talking to the manager about the gold spray, and it is literally just because it is gold. The design team at such a hard time with it, at one point they thought it might have been more viable using actual gold!

Seriously, you guys need to give the game a fair chance before you complain.

[grimmas]

I think it's actually genius.

As a starter game it's the best I've encountered (yes anecdotal blah blah). Seriously what barrier to entry? You can literally play with the first set you buy, brilliant.

Now wether it is targetted as a beginner game for the hobby in general or for another warhammer game that will be released later on remains to be seen but either way it will get new people playing early doors for a small outlay.

As for balance I was running a few ideas around but it just occured to me "why bother" all you have to do is play against people who are at similar stage with their army as you (ask them how much they've spent on models) or decide to play with a similar number of warscrolls, life is too short for anything else.

Let's face it if as TDA points out the game has no problems if you don't behave like a bell end then guess what if you're having problems chances are you're the problem.

As for the joke rules, brilliant, I was chuckling away as I was reading them, I particulary enjoyed the screaming bell one and it's about time people were made to say Waaaagh properly. It toy soldiers kids it ain't serious it really really isn't cool but it should be a laugh.

[Xaric]

Give this man a cookie :D I feel the same way grimmas :D

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yes, love the joke rules.

Time for that fabulous moustache! :D

[Spider-pope]

To answer a few concerns.
I have now played 5 games of AoS, relatively small. We've found that not being a bell end balances the game itself. Also, the game is great fun, easy set up, nice strategy in the combat phase, and it is just more interesting to play.


The combat phase is certainly where the main strategic wrangling is found. It's incredibly important to make the right choice of which unit will attack first in multi-unit combats. In my second game my opponent made the wrong choice and that was what swung the entire game in the end.


Crapsichord. There goes any chance whatsoever they had of selling me any terrain.

When you see some of the terrain that's yet to come, the temptation to buy may be difficult to resist, even with subpar material.

[40kGamer]

Yes, love the joke rules.

Time for that fabulous moustache! :D

The joke rules are the thing I dislike the most... I'm up for playing games and being as silly as we want naturally, however I don't need some heavy handed LARPing forced into my tabletop experience.

[eldargal]

Don't use them then.

[Mr Mystery]

Inside back page of White Dwarf shows the term 'Battletome' is now a GW trademark.

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah, this has been my observation, too. Funny rules can be great in small doses (people still talk about jamming as many Orks as they could into a 2nd Edition Battlewagon), but they work best when they give a little character to the experience or to a single army. Tossing them in at every turn like they have feels like...well...

I noticed none of the new units shown in White Dwarf had those silly rules, either. Like they want you to take the new stuff seriously, but the old stuff is all a joke.

[Al Shut]

Hard to say from such a small number of warscrolls for the new stuff

[Austin Becht]

I noticed none of the new units shown in White Dwarf had those silly rules, either. Like they want you to take the new stuff seriously, but the old stuff is all a joke.

You also have to note that all the units included in the Starter Set are pretty basic, made mostly to help you learn the game. Plenty of the older units have more, an more complex, rules. I assume we will see some of these joke rules pop up over time as they start to release more stuff. I wouldn't be surprised either way though. I personally like the joke rules even though I'd probably be incapable of using any of them...except maybe the Mustache one, considering I'm one of the only people with a mustache in my gaming group.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, we have seen 5 War scrolls for the Celestials so far. How about we give them chance to release an army before we jump on a hate wagon?

Jesus Christ guys.

[phantajisto]

The nerdrage all over the internet is astounding.

Nice to see a bit of common sense on positivity in this thread.

I'm really looking forward to trying out AoS and seeing how it develops over time.

[Houghten]

Jesus Christ guys.

As nicknames for the Stormcast Eternals go, I like "Sigmarines" better.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, we have seen 5 War scrolls for the Celestials so far. How about we give them chance to release an army before we jump on a hate wagon?

Jesus Christ guys.

That's simply not how the Interwebs works.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I am starting to hate this forum. Pretty much because of the Age of Sigmar stuff.

I come back for the Oubliette chats

[Bigred]

via one of Gary's birds (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/aEbkCat-zUY/aos-realmgate-war-campaign.html) 7-5-2015

Regarding a "Big Rulebook" for Age of Sigmar


I’m hesitant to call it a “Summer Campaign”, because a majority of the
bigger stuff will come out after the summer is over, but the big new
selling point of AoS is going to be vast narrative campaigns and story
arcs. The Realmgate War is going to be the first of these campaigns.

Future campaigns might be more focused, but RgW is primarily going to a
walking tour of the new setting. The release pattering is going to be
formulaic: Here’s the new world (Sans Azyr and Chaos, we go to them during
the final), here’s the evil force that’s making everyone’s life awful,
here’s the good force that’s going to liberate them. Inky, Blinky, Pinky,
and Clyde each get their own named faction, and The Horned Rat and Nagash
will each get their respective 15 minutes of fame.

Once all the new factions are introduced, and the war scrolls proper are
put up, that’s when we finally get the BrB. Don’t think of this as 9th
edition, think of this as the first expansion to Age of Sigmar. It’ll be
much smaller than a core rulebook, but larger than a codex, and will look
and feel a lot like the Horus Heresy books from FW. There will be rules
for list building, missions, campaigns, as well as all the “advanced
rules”, more rules for gods, magic, heroes, loot, more terrain abilities,
and special rules for games on specific realm. Then there’s going to be a
few weeks of 40k, followed by a few weeks to wrap up the Realmgate War.
The conclusion will take the form of an actual, factual summer campaign, as
the forces of order launch an assault on the forces of chaos undecided on
their home turf, all while death and destruction go around making sure
everyone’s having a bad day.

Then a few months later the cycle starts again. There’s going to be a few
weeks of breathing time, setting up the campaigns, introducing characters,
factions, and whatnot, followed by an expansion book that’ll expand on the
rules and let people play their own mini campaigns, followed then a big
conclusion with plenty of heroic deaths and things going south for everyone.

[Mr Mystery]

Really hope that rumour isn't a load of bollocks.

[Kirsten]

yeah, that is exactly what the game needs, hope it is true

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That'd be brilliant, and I suspect something like that is indeed going to be the pattern from now on. Age of Sigmar stuff keeps hinting at an ongoing narrative.

[Spider-pope]

Really hope that rumour isn't a load of bollocks.

Depends what they mean by "summer campaign" really. If they are referring to the campaigns of old, no chance. If they mean it's just a campaign book that happens to be released in the summer, i can believe that.

[grimmas]

Loving the sound of an ongoing narrative. I've seen and heard enough the preorder has gone in. It's going to a summer Warhammer w**kfest. Erm sorry got a little carried away their, I'll get my coat 😳

[Harry]

Yup. That's why I struggle to take the doomsdaying seriously.
We have known each other for a while now.
You really do have to start warming up to the fact that Warhammer as you knew it has been completely and utterly shafted.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm gonna get the starter box. I've decided. **** it. I want to encourage this sort of thing.

[Spider-pope]

I'm gonna get the starter box. I've decided. **** it. I want to encourage this sort of thing.

Well you're getting some lovely models in return for that encouragement.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I've totally fallen in love with the Stormcast Eternals.

What I like about the design is that while they're clearly a Good Guy faction - they're golden-armoured angels - there's also a pleasing undercurrent of creepiness to them. They're heroic, gold-armoured godlings, but they're also faceless, masked. The Lord Relictor is clearly a reanimated corpse. They're covered in this runic script. It's that edge, personally, which sets them above merely "fantasy Space Marines". They're mysterious and unsettling as much as they're titanic and righteous. It's good design. I like them.

The design direction from End Times onwards has reminded me a lot of the design work from the universe of the videogames in the Demon's/Dark Souls series, and that's an aesthetic I really enjoy also.

The Khorne stuff is also really cool!

[Kaptain Badrukk]

It's little details like the pony-tail threaded through a series of vertebra on the khorne standard bearer, or the fact that the face-masks for the Stormcast all look like they're scowling with hatred that made me happy once I got to look at my local's open copy.
Can't wait to see what's next :)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The Mighty Lord of Khorne is pure Mad Max. I love him to bits.

[daboarder]

I'm shocked at how aggressively negative people are over a game 99% of them haven't even played yet. No wait, I'm not because this exact same debate happens every edition of WFB.

If people aren't allowed to formulate opinions on a game they haven't played (speculation by you, largely unfounded in all likelyhood) why are you doing just that?

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Thhpt. When your leadership are telepathic, and thus all knowing, market research is a complete waste of resources.

I think GW leadership probably actually thinks they are the physical embodiment of the chaos gods.....

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Well, we have seen 5 War scrolls for the Celestials so far. How about we give them chance to release an army before we jump on a hate wagon?

Jesus Christ guys.

why?

You've clearly already formulated your opinion with no additional information (and no you wont change it, we all know that) so why are others doing the same any worse?

Hell just the fact that its NOT FANTASY BATTLES should be all the justification a person needs to decide they dont like the product if they so choose, because its not what they want to play.

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Honestly man, for all that you quip about the folks at Warseer throwing tantrums over this, they're the only ones who seem to be feeling as pissed off as me. I'm actually shocked at how aggressively positive most people are about this game. As in, voicing your misgivings is likely to get you dogpiled and insulted multiple times. I'm glad at least the Warseer crowd are showing me that I'm not alone in utterly friggin' hating this game.

theres only really 3-4 rabid posters that will attack you for posting an opinion on the game that isn;t glowing roses.

Posters like Cap'n'smurf or Deadlift might praise the new game (as they are completely welcome too) but they wont be belligerent and aggressive about others disagreeing, that behavior is reserved for a select few that work themselves around to all heading nodding at each other.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Speaking personally, i rather enjoy reading the vastly different points of view here and would find it painfully boring if it was one side or the other.
Count me as a fan of Age of Sigmar (allthough not sure on the rules as i wont get a chance till wednesday at the earliest) but I do empathise with those that dislike these big changes, it's fairly easy to understand that PoV too...

[daboarder]

Speaking personally, i rather enjoy reading the vastly different points of view here and would find it painfully boring if it was one side or the other.
Count me as a fan of Age of Sigmar (allthough not sure on the rules as i wont get a chance till wednesday at the earliest) but I do empathise with those that dislike these big changes, it's fairly easy to understand that PoV too...

well said Xeno

[lobster-overlord]

I've taken a look at the rules myself, and I've found that I rather enjoy the simplicity of it. The toughest part I think is going to be the unit coherancy, since it's "model to model" and not "base to base." Also, I think it will be a way I can get my kids involved since it's a lot easier than Fantasy Mathhammer. That was one of the reasons why I havn't played fantasy in 6 years. I've even sold much of my stuff as a result. Now I'm wishing I still had my Ogre army. They would be great on round bases for this game.

Looks like I'll be busting out my Aegyptus mummies and my Tomb Kings to build up.

I would love to think that I could also adapt the Skeleton warscrolls or the tomb guard to mummy minis from Crocodile games.

John M>

[silashand]

I finally watched my first demo game of AoS today. I am trying to see where people think it's fun since apparently a few people do like it, but sorry to say I thought my eyes were going to bleed. It literally was the most boring thing I have seen in a very long time. I am sure they did some things wrong and I admit a few of the special rules for the battlescrolls were interesting, but there was just nothing appealing about the gameplay. I will try a couple games myself eventually, but after today I am not holding out any more hope of salvaging this thing we have been given. Best of luck to those who continue to try. You have far more patience and tolerance than I will ever possess

I will be spending my time with KoW 2.0 in the future. Hope to see many of you there...

[eldargal]

We have known each other for a while now.
You really do have to start warming up to the fact that Warhammer as you knew it has been completely and utterly shafted.

Well that's obvious, I'm just convinced what this is will be a bad as people are saying.:) I mean people have been saying for years now WFB was dying so change was obviously required.

[Alaric]

Speaking personally, i rather enjoy reading the vastly different points of view here and would find it painfully boring if it was one side or the other.
Count me as a fan of Age of Sigmar (allthough not sure on the rules as i wont get a chance till wednesday at the earliest) but I do empathise with those that dislike these big changes, it's fairly easy to understand that PoV too...

The frontpage comments are funnier if yer goin for raw entertainment :P

[Harry]

Well that's obvious, I'm just convinced what this is will be a bad as people are saying.:) I mean people have been saying for years now WFB was dying so change was obviously required.It is not as bad as people are saying. (But that would be tricky. :D) there is more to this .... but it will not change some of the gripes folks have.

[Mr Mystery]

There's an app coming soon.

And Harry....spill the rumour beans!

[40kGamer]

Well that's obvious, I'm just convinced what this is will be a bad as people are saying.:) I mean people have been saying for years now WFB was dying so change was obviously required.

Absolutely! WFB had to change to survive at all, and I have to believe that AoS will look very different in just a few months.

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There's an app coming soon.

And Harry....spill the rumour beans!

Spot on! Dust off that crystal ball and get busy with it. :p

[Bigred]

via DakkaDakka's ShaneTB (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655189.page) 7-5-2015


GW had a guy camped out at the Forge World open day whos entire job was to answer questions and talk to people about Age of Sigmar. His entire job is to go to shows and talk to people about the new game. For the first time I think ever they're taking Age of Sigmar to Gencon, Comic Con, all the major wargames conventions in Europe etc. They're throwing a considerable amount of money at putting this in front of new audiences who have never played fantasy before. He was also brutally honest and didn't dodge any questions and answered everything he could. I'll start with the negative stuff first.

This is it. There categorically will not be a '9th' edition of fantasy. Age of Sigmar is the only thing fantasy related GW will do for the considerable future.

He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again.

There will never be points values.

On to the slightly positive stuff then.

They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming.

The rules will always be free. He said that they are very very aware that fantasy had a massive buy in for someone to get started, as such the game was designed with the ability to play it with one box of models. There will be army books, but every rule in them will be available, for free, online. The books will just have extra background info and scenarios.

GW really are trying harder than they ever have before to make this work. If you're at one of the shows go and talk to them. They want to talk to you about this, but especially they want your feedback on it. As he said, this is totally uncharted territory for them and they are totally open to rules revisions as they go.

[Clewz]

I'm assuming everything thats gone to webstore exclusive is getting replaced or is a gonna

[Path Walker]

I'm assuming everything thats gone to webstore exclusive is getting replaced or is a gonna

More like anything not made in the last year or so, which includes some current core product like orc boyz and goblins

[Houghten]

More like anything not made in the last year or so, which includes some current core product like orc boyz and goblins

Or, indeed, the entire greenskin line. It's been four years since the Arachnarok and Savage Orcs

[40kGamer]

From the comments above old models will have a limited lifespan and will essentially not fit the aesthetic of the game the next time the race is released. Guess we're still seeing fallout from the whole Chapterhouse thing. It's also a bit impressive that they're willing to blatantly sacrifice the existing WFB player base in an effort to get new people into this game. From the comments above, they're actually thumbing their noses at the old players... seeing this makes me wonder if it might really be best if they don't communicate with the public at all.

[Kirsten]

it makes sense if they are redesigning each race. I suppose the question will be are the new ooruk models going to be orc boys, orc boar boys etc. with a new look, or are they going to have totally different units?

I did think the other day with the three elf races being forced together in End Times, and them all just being 'aelfs' now, there wont be any more high/dark/wood releases, it will just be one aelf army.

[40kGamer]

I was actually expecting a full aesthetic change so this isn't a big surprise. In some way it lets everyone put a big explanation point on WFB as the models will follow the game into unsupported oblivion. I'm really not sure what they will have to do to turn a generic fantasy Ork into an IP protected Orruk. If they can't do it, the coat tail companies will just continue to follow them about with similar models.

[Path Walker]

Just have to wait and see I guess, I think they're fine with excluding players who don' t want to buy more models, they're not exactly customers anyway!

[Kirsten]

Well GW have never been against third party companies making stuff, so long as they aren't stupid enough to breech GW's copyright.

[eldargal]

I doubt every army will be entirely revamped, the investment would be massive whensome armies have had big investments in the past couple of years, and some are distinctive enough in aesthetic to justify staying (Dark Elves, elements of Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Skaven, maybe High Elves).

[40kGamer]

Has anyone ever knocked off Skaven? they seem to be a safe bet to change very little.

[Spider-pope]

I doubt every army will be entirely revamped, the investment would be massive whensome armies have had big investments in the past couple of years, and some are distinctive enough in aesthetic to justify staying (Dark Elves, elements of Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Skaven, maybe High Elves).

But if said big investments aren't selling, then it makes little sense to continue them. That'd just be throwing more money away.


Has anyone ever knocked off Skaven? they seem to be a safe bet to change very little.

Mantic made knock off science fiction versions. But of the old armies, Skaven are the least likely to change.

[Kirsten]

well with the rumours of the empire boxes being withdrawn, I could believe they are the first to be revamped.

[Path Walker]

Skaven will probably advance down the line seen in the Stormfiend Rat Orges, lots of boilers and whirly-gigs and stuff, Duradin along the lines of the more modern Dwarf offerings, the Hammerers and Ironbreakers. I'd imagine anything made in the last few years was intended for Age of Sigmar

[40kGamer]

well with the rumours of the empire boxes being withdrawn, I could believe they are the first to be revamped.

The empire range needs some love so this would be a welcome range to see revamped. I'm hoping the model scale doesn't creep up to something like 35mm with this game.

[Kirsten]

I don't think it will change personally. I just hope they don't drop the cool stuff like the luminark, demi gryph knights etc.

[Al Shut]

Has anyone ever knocked off Skaven? they seem to be a safe bet to change very little.

I still have some rat men from Harlequin Miniatures lying arond somewhere that look suspiciously like Stormvermin, but they might well be from the last millennium.

[40kGamer]

I don't think it will change personally. I just hope they don't drop the cool stuff like the luminark, demi gryph knights etc.

Crap. I need to pick up some of the Demi-gryph Knights in case they do go away. Although I suspect they'll survive, I don't want to risk inflated ebay prices if they don't!

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I still have some rat men from Harlequin Miniatures lying arond somewhere that look suspiciously like Stormvermin, but they might well be from the last millennium.

Oi, I haven't thought on Harlequin minis in a while... probably was the last millennium! :D

[Kirsten]

yeah obviously buying them now is a good idea if you can, seeing as they have warscrolls you know they will be compatible. you just don't want them being stopped.

I am tempted to buy a steam tank, some demi gryph knights and a luminark, just in case.

[40kGamer]

The uncertain future of any cool minis does seriously tempt one to pick the stuff up now. Might even be a part of their evil plan. :p

[Kirsten]

maybe, they just need to hold off until September, I can't easily buy anything before that :p

[Spider-pope]

In terms of what miniatures will survive and which won't, we know that the Sigmarines were sculpted back in 2014. I'd say anything from a similar time was likely intended to cross over into AoS too. The Mortarchs for example are safe, especially since they are riding what can now be described as skeletal Dracoths.