Why doesnt GW understand glass cannons...

[Havik110]

okay 1st of all I am a Dark Eldar player. Dark eldar was my 1st army back in 4th about 10 years ago.

I will go on record saying that I honestly miss that old pamphlet (aside from points costs) and it performed better from 4-5th than this new codex performs in the current game. The main reason for this is there were no where near the same amount of shots being put out in a game. There are honestly more shots put out in 1 turn now compared to when everything was 5 man laz/plas squads and devastators and this is what GW doesnt get or simply doesnt care about. T3 models with a 5+ save and later on a 5+ FNP with a poison weapon are pretty lack luster especially compared to the current shuriken catapolts and their demi rend...

So how do we fix it.

I have a bunch of ideas, one includes changing the game's cover mechanic (or just added rules to our skimmers) to include modifiers to hit (as opposed to a leaf saving you from a lascannon) so the speed of our transports actually means something. We dont get a cover same, we get harder to hit.

If hoping for that is too much i want to bring back the old skimmers moving fast rule from 4th, if a skimmer moves fast (over 6 inches) you can only glance it. (it doesnt make a huge difference but it does save our troops from blowing up a little better)

The next change is to make the army a true glass cannon army (not counting the coven aspects).
1. power from pain - Take away FNP...that doesnt fit...we didnt have it for 12 years and now there is so much str6 shooting that FNP is pretty much garbage...DE are either in their raiders, or in your lines, if they are out in the open their commander failed and they should die..they dont get harder to kill they would start killing YOU harder. Add FC or +1 st for 2nd turn, 3rd turn +1 Attack or rage, 4th turn reroll to hits, 5th turn assault 12 inches all the time, turn 6 turn reroll to wound (looks like 3rd edition drugs minus always hits 1st)

2. Give our rifles more shots, make them rapid fire 3, this makes us want to get to 12 inches. this may hurt some monstrous creatures (not the knight or other gargantuans) but wounding on 4s all the time isnt bad but not great against other T3 models...its better than our old st3 splinters that i never bothered to shoot for the most part...on top of this make our skimmers stabilized weapon platforms, in this case, we can move a full 12 and shoot at full BS, including heavy weapons (stop complaining, 1 extra St8 shot into a troops unit doesnt break the bank)

3. Give our wyches more attacks in CC. All wyches need to be base 2 attacks if not 3. Most of them have no power weapons and the ones that do are St3 so not the scariest unit on the block. Also with agonisers only AP3 they have completely had their threat to terminators removed...I would also go back to my 3rd edition pamphlet and give us back our wych weapons rule (4th edition not 5th, that faq was BS), 1/2 the weapon skill of people we are fighting unless they are double str, and subtract their extra close combat weapon attack (if they have it). then give our specialist wych weapons something cool, nets subtract strength the same way night goblins netters do. Hydra gauntlets add d6 attacks to models wearing them, and once per game 2d6 but then they burn out, flails get reroll everything and rending. Give them back blasters in case we want to run a complete wych cult army, and give us back our haywire grenades at 4 points a model the same as 3rd edition...

4. Blood Brides should be like veterans of marines in that they can take any CC weapon they want, this includes power weapons, agonisers, and wych specialist weapons. the fact that they are just 1 extra attack and Leadership is beyond stupid. these girls start off at 3 base attacks if not 4. WS5 for all bloodbrides.

5. Trueborn are the same, if you want the entire squad to take all special weapons its all good...BS5 for trueborn

6. Hellions, need another shot and another attack

7. Scourges are good, drop armor to 5...nothing in the book other than incubi have armor above 5...

8. Incubi, we had blasters and grenades for 12-14 years...give them back...

9. Mandrakes, give them back their old deployment rules, give them the deamon 5++ save and make them harder to hit...remember in my book stealth is minus 1 to hit, not a cover save...

10. Give archons and Hemos access to skyboards and bikes like they had for so long...if craftworld can still have thear warlocks on bikes, we can have our hemos on bikes (we used to be able to take 6 with liquifiers (forgot their old names)) and our archons on a bike with a punisher was ST6, +1 A, and always strikes 1st if we needed it

11. Give our bikes the flyover attack and not the hammer of wrath BS...those bikes have 5+ saves, they dont want to be in CC with anything...

12. let all DLs have the disintegrator 2ndary rule. We are not the craft worlders, we have no specialists, every thing in our army is a generalist. Make them hit more often and it helps us out.

13. Give us some sort of psychic protection or the ability to pop psychers like the old crucible not this new POS...

14. I will post more but lunch is over...

In short, we are a glass cannon and FNP is useless for us...put the points into More attacks and actually allow us to get into CC (my stealth mechanic of trading in cover saves for making us harder to hit which i think the cover rule should be anyways)

[YorkNecromancer]

I always liked the idea of simply inverting the Power From Pain table - you start amazing, but bleed out your power as you use it up in realspace. Basically if you haven't won by turn 3, you ain't winning, so you best be super-aggressive.

Other changes? Maybe just give Wyches a flat 4++ (like Imperial Assassins), and make Haywire grenades a squad upgrade. The problem you've got is that there are basically six flavours of Eldar assault:

Howling Banshees - MEQ killers.
Incubi - TEQ killers.
Striking Scorpions - Horde killers.
Wraithblades - TEQ assault specialists.

Which leaves wyches as the 'disposable cannon fodder' and Bloodbrides as the 'what exactly do I do?'

I'd maybe make Wyches roughly an assault version of Imperial Guard conscripts; dirt cheap, but with terrible shooting replaced by average melee. Bloodbrides would then be far, far better (as befits the Darwinian survivors of the arenas, and make them Banshee-equivelant MEQ killers, but with way more attacks and less AP - the sort of unit that wins through weight of attacks instead of AP - like the Leman Russ Punisher. Give them Str 3, AP- and 8 attacks each: death by bee stings.

[Lost Vyper]

I would be happy with just few changes myself (but nice ideas on your part!) :

1) An upgrade for our transports against flamers --> less hits or no hits for the passengers at all? This alone, would gimme a chance even PLAY AGAINST my friends Grey Knights with those stupid torrent flamers...
2) Bring the Baron back godz dammit! I just made a model for him and bought over ten Hellions, which are now utterly useless...Baron and them to be troops again, would do it...
3) Where´s our LOW? Where´s our free stuff due to a Formation? Oh, yeah, maybe the next codex, cos GW doesn´t FAQ with us anymore...

I actually do not hate the new codex, it´s just less options now-a-dayz...

- Lost Vyper

[Fueldrop]

Breaking my DE out of the mothballs (3rd edition models. Still have the old codex! thought I'd lost them :() and looking through the latest codex now. 75 points for WS 8 In 8 4 attacks base?!?

Whatever else you say about DE HQs, on raw skill we're pretty much peerless. Slow on the draw is another phrase which does not come to mind when examining them.

Should be interesting to see how well I can make them work in the world.

[CoffeeGrunt]

in this case, we can move a full 12 and shoot at full BS, including heavy weapons (stop complaining, 1 extra St8 shot into a troops unit doesnt break the bank)

As Fast Skimmers, you can move 12" and shoot two weapons, unless you're talking about the Ravager here? Also IMO Terminators shouldn't really be dropping to a cheap Troops choice, they're pretty disappointing as they are right now.

[Charon]

As Fast Skimmers, you can move 12" and shoot two weapons

But the units on the transport can't. Which makes heavy weapons on them (or on the army in general) pretty pointless.

[Havik110]

basically my opinion is that the DE are supposed to be a glass cannon but lack the offense to be a true glass cannon...so they have just the glass going for them...JMO...sure we have some quality shots in the form of lances but in todays game its easier to hull point a vehicle down with6 or 7 str 6 or 7 shots than 1 St 8 shot...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, ultimately a Dark Lance is just a Lascannon that's better against AV14 only. Against AV13 it's rolling the same to Pen, and against AV12 or under it's worse. Unless you're facing Land Raider spam or a wall of Russes, it's a bit lacklustre.

Problem is that DE don't seem to be able to mass them in the same way other armies can do with Lascannons. Tau have a similar problem with Railguns.

Like you said, they're the Glass Cannon without the Cannon. Craftworld Eldar these days are sadly the Glass Cannon without the Glass.

[Mr Mystery]

Thought Dark Lances were Assault 1 rather than Heavy 1?

[Havik110]

Thought Dark Lances were Assault 1 rather than Heavy 1? thats a blaster...

Back in our 3rd edition codex (during 4th) we had sniper squads...10 man warriors squads with 2 lances for 100 points...so we would sit on the back edge of the table in a raider with night shields, not move and fife off 3 lance shots *6 before we bothered with our wyches with blasters, incubi with blasters, and their raiders...

in essence, much more cannon even though we were made of glass and cardborad...most of the time we didnt even bother with our St3 rifles since you would only shoot 1 shot if you didnt move at 24 inches and we generally only had 7 per squad...

GW took away our wych's and incubi's blasters which really hurt the ability to run full cc armies..

GW says speed is a weapon however you hit a raider that has moved 30 inches as easily as a lemun russ battle tank that has been in the same spot for 2 turns...that is dumb.. you have to hit vs your targets WS in assault, what prevents you from shooting differently based on how fast a target moved, how massive the target it (or small)...its why I want modifiers to hit...

[Charon]

GW says speed is a weapon however you hit a raider that has moved 30 inches as easily as a lemun russ battle tank that has been in the same spot for 2 turns.

In fact you hit them easier as the leman russ will most probably sit in cover (just the tracks is enough to grant the save) while the raider has to jink.
Speed was a defence in previous editions (mostly 2nd but at least fast antigrav also had defenses against melee in later editions) but today it is a bit of movement that gets outclassed by Drop Pods anyways.

[Havik110]

and lets not even get into how you hit in fantasy and 40k...this is where Privateer has it right...my ability to hit you has nothing to do with your ability to hit me...it has everything to do with my ability to dodge or parry, on top of general speed, and how well i hide...in shot defense...

GW was so interested in streamlining the game that they have obvious problems...how is it that a space marine can hit a banshee as easily as she can hit him...one of the combatants is 7-8 feet tall in armor and weighs over a 1000 pounds in at armor...one may be tall but is much faster and specializes in blade weaponry, ONE specific blade to be specific...it should be much harder to hit the banshee (she uses her defense to survive), but if you do hit her, that chain sword that weighs more than her is probably gonna splat her...as opposed to the space marine that is relatively easy to hit for the banshee to hit but much harder to wound due to thick armor ( i understand her power weapon slices up the armor but only if it can get through it...)

I dont need a full rewright and i can live with CC being the same but they need to fix shooting and they need to fix cover and speed actually meaning something if they want a real glass cannon to be able to do something...

[Reldane]

Yeah, ultimately a Dark Lance is just a Lascannon that's better against AV14 only. Against AV13 it's rolling the same to Pen, and against AV12 or under it's worse. Unless you're facing Land Raider spam or a wall of Russes, it's a bit lacklustre.

for comparisons sake vs low armour vehicles enither is an ideal weapon, vs mid armour the lascannon does come out a head, vs high armour 14/15 the lance has the advantage.

however it is worth noting that the higher av are often much more expensive, landraiders are costed at 250ish compared to most av12 sitting around 100pts. I personnally would rather my heavist weapon could counter the higher armour values rather than being a better all round weapon, which is why I feel that Dark Eldar are missing the mid range mulitshot weaponry.

although on other notes I do wish the disintirator didn't outshine every other gun in its class (Mulit lasers heavy bolters, hot shot volly guns even to a lesser degree assault cannons and the Eldar cannon I can't quite remember the name of).

[Charon]

although on other notes I do wish the disintirator didn't outshine every other gun in its class (Mulit lasers heavy bolters, hot shot volly guns even to a lesser degree assault cannons and the Eldar cannon I can't quite remember the name of).

It does not. The Dissi is the dark eldars "plasma". You compare it to cheap anti-horde weapons (which DE do not even have, that is why you confused it). You have to compare it to Plasma Cannons (blast, S7) and Starcannons (2 shots S6). The Dissi has less S than the others but a higher number of shots.
The problem is that this weapon is exclusive to our anti-tank vehicles which makes it quite bad as we have to decide between anti-elite infantry weapons or anti-tank-MC and elite infantry weapons. thas why the dissi loses out.

[CoffeeGrunt]

and lets not even get into how you hit in fantasy and 40k...this is where Privateer has it right...my ability to hit you has nothing to do with your ability to hit me...it has everything to do with my ability to dodge or parry, on top of general speed, and how well i hide...in shot defense...

GW was so interested in streamlining the game that they have obvious problems...how is it that a space marine can hit a banshee as easily as she can hit him...one of the combatants is 7-8 feet tall in armor and weighs over a 1000 pounds in at armor...one may be tall but is much faster and specializes in blade weaponry, ONE specific blade to be specific...it should be much harder to hit the banshee (she uses her defense to survive), but if you do hit her, that chain sword that weighs more than her is probably gonna splat her...as opposed to the space marine that is relatively easy to hit for the banshee to hit but much harder to wound due to thick armor ( i understand her power weapon slices up the armor but only if it can get through it...)

They're both going for very different things, though. That's an argument of their stats, though I do personally think WS is surprisingly unimportant in CC, my WS2 Conscripts are hitting Marines on the same dice other Marines are, the only difference is that the Marines hit back on 3s, not 4s. IMO it should cover a broader range, an average human is shown in a lot of Black Library books to be utterly outclassed by Marines if he doesn't want to get hit, and a human would never land a hit on a Banshee if she was even half awake.

Privateer have a good system, but it could never work for a blob of Conscripts hitting a target, it's designed for a much smaller scale.

[Houghten]

Dissi
Please never write that word again. I don't want to have to gouge out my own eyeballs.


You compare it to cheap anti-horde weapons (which DE do not even have,
Splinter cannon and shredders aren't exactly expensive.

[Charon]

Splinter cannon and shredders aren't exactly expensive.

10 to 15 points for a weapon that wounds T3 on a 4+ is not exactly cheap.

[Houghten]

Six shots, though.

[Charon]

Same as 2 heavy bolters with less S and less AP. Not cheap at all.
Especially if you are limited to vehicles to actually get 6 shots.

[Havik110]

It does not. The Dissi is the dark eldars "plasma". You compare it to cheap anti-horde weapons (which DE do not even have, that is why you confused it). You have to compare it to Plasma Cannons (blast, S7) and Starcannons (2 shots S6). The Dissi has less S than the others but a higher number of shots.
The problem is that this weapon is exclusive to our anti-tank vehicles which makes it quite bad as we have to decide between anti-elite infantry weapons or anti-tank-MC and elite infantry weapons. thas why the dissi loses out.

you will remember if you played the old book it has 2 modes...

1 was blast ST7 AP2
the other was 3 shots st4 ap3

so yes, dissys were our plasma cannons minus Gets hot...

[Houghten]

If you're going to compare the splinter cannon to two heavy bolters then you need to compare it to the points cost of two heavy bolters as well. Which is 20 points.

[Charon]

Depends on the army and unit.

[Houghten]

I can't find one that gets it for less than ten (or, indeed, more than ten), but do please prove me wrong. Astra Militarum (both Heavy Weapons Teams and Leman Russ sponsons), Chaos Marines and the shiny new Space Marines all pay ten points.

[Charon]

I think scouts still get if for 8.
And as Cannons on infantry is 15 this is not too far off. Even 20 would not be far off considered that your 6 shots only wound on a 4+

Considered that the Cannon would be our anti-horde weapon and we are basically spamming it all over the place I am really curious why a majority of good players on DarkCity seem to have trouble dealing with horde.

[Houghten]

Because green is best, duh

[Reldane]

first my applogies, this is a troll post but I couldn't pass up the oppertunity to comment


It does not. The Dissi is the dark eldars "plasma". You compare it to cheap anti-horde weapons (which DE do not even have, that is why you confused it). You have to compare it to Plasma Cannons (blast, S7) and Starcannons (2 shots S6). The Dissi has less S than the others but a higher number of shots.

so I was wrong to compare your heavy 3 str 5 ap 2 gun with that heavy 3 str 5 ap 4 gun? am I missing something that makes them compleatly different other than one is in a book you play? how does a disintagrator not do everything a heavy bolter does but with better ap?

you could debate the points difference, I have no books to hand so I can't personally do a comparason, but a raider and a razor back are simalar points and whilst the raider is lighter armoured, it holds 4 more models, it has 10 fireports, is an assault transport, can deep strike, it can move 12 and still fire and can ignore interviening terrain and models when it mores.

[Charon]

The same way a plasma gun isnt just a better version of the autocannon or the dark lance as a better version of the missile launcher.


but a raider and a razor back are simalar points and whilst the raider is lighter armoured, it holds 4 more models, it has 10 fireports, is an assault transport, can deep strike, it can move 12 and still fire and can ignore interviening terrain and models when it mores.

True but then again is the Razorback the only option with heavy bolters? Disintigrators are only available on Raiders, Ravagers and Razorwings and replace anti tank weapons.

[Fueldrop]

The same way a plasma gun isnt just a better version of the autocannon or the dark lance as a better version of the missile launcher.



True but then again is the Razorback the only option with heavy bolters? Disintigrators are only available on Raiders, Ravagers and Razorwings and replace anti tank weapons.

Then there's the old las-plas option: effectively a Darklance + TL Disintergrator combo. I love that pattern.

[Havik110]

So what would help make wyches better in 7th...
1. 2 base attacks (definately)
2. Rage and rampage, this would allow us attacks on the charge and allow us to nick people up a bit more and allow us to run into a big blob of troops and wipe them out or a smaller group to put a slightly better hurting on a unit
3. Running and assaulting or add 3 inches to our charge like banshees (great until you get shot up in over watch and lose CC effectiveness)
4. Bring back the phantasm grenade launcher to give us stealth at 8" or allow us to use our dodge save vs overwatch
5. Bring back old wych weapons for upgrade like we used to have in the 3rd edition dex. 1/2 weapon skill (or just static minus 2) and lose your extra cc weapon attack for anything under st6
6. Bring back our ability to take blasters.
7. Allow us to shoot pistols in CC instead of our extra CC attack so extra poison and a blast pistol help out.
8. Rename hekatrix to succubus and succubus HQ back to arcite... :P
9. Let us upgrade our weapons, let us take lances that up our strength on the turn we charge but not be Power weapons,
10. Make nets an upgrade like goblin netters, subtract str from the unit affected...

Basically you have to remember that throwing 10 wyches into a unit is not the end all be all it used to be (it was never like throwing banshees into a unit of marines, but we could tie people up and win a war of attrition, especially with terminators only getting 1 attack against us and our succubus (hekatrix is a stupid name) removing 1 or 2 a turn...wyches were what you threw at a deathstar if you had to to slow it down.

Also remember I want glass cannons so i want FNP gone. I want them to go insane once they start killing. like the old count for nurgle demons.

[Havik110]

Next we need to know a clear difference between Mandrakes and wyches...

what are they used for?

This isnt Craftworld eldar when every unit is a specialist. every craftworlder has a purpose. Banschees kill MEQ, scorpions kill hordes, etc...where every DE unit is a generalist. they hit you faster than you hit you and they kill models... so what then are mandrakes for?

with they had pinning they could be used as a unity that offered utility. Pin a unit, and help keep your other unitys from being shot at. now...blind?

to me they should be like a lictor (hopefully 1 that actually works) they need to be able to assasinate something. they arent for tying up units, they are for coming in hitting and then (what? dying?) they come in and people can get reduced scatter on deepstriking?

they can shoot ap4 so they cam outright kill scouts, and other low armor units?

man they could have made the decapitator cool if they tried...

what is their place?

[Fueldrop]

Given that our last codex release was filled with nerfs and we actually lost several units (named HQs, but still) instead of gaining them, I think it's safe to say that GW is not that interested in making Dark Eldar better.

However, on the subject of wyches:

1) make their dodge work for the entire assault phase. That at least gives them a modicum of defense against Overwatch.

2) I've come up with an alternate Wych progression (and new special rule), see what you think:

ws bs s t w i a ld points
Wych: 5 3 3 3 1 6 1 8 10
Hekatrix 6 4 3 3 2 6 2 9 20
Bloodbride 6 4 3 3 2 6 2 9 18
Syren 7 5 3 3 2 7 3 10 28

Strike Around Armour: Wyches are skilled at striking around armour. Wyches attacks are AP 6 unless they would otherwise be better. Hekatrix and bloodbrides attacks are AP 5 unless they would otherwise be better. a Syren's attacks are AP 4 unless they would otherwise be better. A Succubus's attacks are AP 3 unless they would otherwise be better.

Duelists: Wyches are masters of one-on-one combat. In a challenge, A wych or related model (Hekatrix, Bloodbride, Syren, Succubus) improves their dodge to 3++. If there is no character present in a unit of wyches or bloodbrides then any rank-and-file model may accept (but not issue) a challenge.

Master Duelist: A Succubus is among the greatest warriors in the galaxy, and when they can focus their attention on a single target the results are devastating. A Succubus gains Preferred Enemy against her opponent when fighting in a challenge.

Gear: Each Bloodbride may choose to replace her melee weapon with: a Power Sword (5 points), a Venom Blade (4 points), or an Agonizer (8 points). (in addition to standard options from Codex)


As most readers have probably worked out, this is supposed to show the progression from Wych towards Succubus and also provide a nod to their role as duelists and horde killers in the arena. Your basic Wych should have no problem getting through Gaunt or Orc armour, while even professionally made armour like that of an imperial guardsman should be no obstacle at all for veteran. Thoughts?

[CoffeeGrunt]

professionally made armour like that of an imperial guardsman

http://newsninja2012.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/032309-obama-laughing-p1.jpg

[Fueldrop]

http://newsninja2012.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/032309-obama-laughing-p1.jpg

Flack Armour can stop anything! It says so right here in my Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer! The Emperor would never lie to me!