View Full Version : Crusader v. Redeemer.
bryce963
03-05-2010, 10:31 AM
I just ordered a crusader redeemer kit for cheap on Wayland, seems the pound is down on the dollar.
So, besides needing to magnetize which should I build? I play space wolves so I can take advantage of the large capacity.
I have come up with two possibilities, both include filling them with troops and characters, each has a multi melta and extra armor:
1) Crusader 14 blood claws, wolf guard with powerfist and wolf priest with talisman. 628 points.
-This one gives tons of attacks, and re-rolls misses, not that blood claws don't hit as well as normal marines(4+ v. WS 3 and 4), but with 4 attacks on the charge the re-roll is more bang for the buck.
2) Redeemer 10 grey hunters, flamer, melta(both free), wolf guard with powerfist, and wolf guard battle leader with storm shield, powerfist and talisman. 598 points.
-This one is all about hunting big bad things, and being able to take down almost anything it can charge, 7 powerfist attacks on the charge, a flamer to throw in and melta if need be, plus the potential death that is mark of the wolfen, back up by a full squad of grey hunters.
So thoughts on which to build, and on these ideas of how to use them?
They are both such huge investments, especially because they only play 1850 where I am now instead of the 2000 I am used to.
Thanks in advance, and check out Wayland, the prices are amazing right now.
Chumbalaya
03-05-2010, 12:58 PM
Crusader carries more dudes and has range (flexbility), Redeemer is not so flexible but extra killy up close (good luck getting both templates to hit of course).
Wolf Guard work best inside Land Raiders, you'll get the most bang for your buck. Blood Claws are hampered by WS3 and lack of punch (1 PF is lame) and GH are more suited to support.
ChaosPhoenix
03-05-2010, 01:15 PM
Chumbalaya is pretty right, although I use Raiders for Terminators most of the time. It's kind of fetishism. With the Machine-Spirit you can aim the 2nd template of the redeemer at a different target.
Unholy_Martyr
03-05-2010, 01:42 PM
I prefer the Crusader for shear versatility. In fact, the only time I ever bust out the Redeemer is for 2000 point games when I am running 3 Land Raiders. At this point I have 2 Crusaders filled with Blood Claws, Wolf Guard pack leader while in the middle there is a Grey Hunter Squad with another Wolf Priest and Grey Hunter squad. Tank shock your enemies into a nice little box, drive up, and unload with the Flame Storms, Hurricane Bolters, Assault Cannons and everything else and watch as anything on foot cries.
The Redeemer only truly shines as a support tank more than anything else. The Crusdaer can just keep rolling while providing close in fire support.
The AKH
03-05-2010, 05:14 PM
If you face a lot of power armour or need to take down more high-toughness targets, go for the Redeemer. If you simply need the torrent of fire and a battlefield taxi (the Crusader can fire its Hurricane Bolters on the move), go for the Crusader.
bryce963
03-05-2010, 07:44 PM
I think I will go with the crusader, it's more the assault tank that I'm looking for, but the way I can fully utlize the redeemer with a harder assault unit and a little less cost. Though any usage of a land raider is a very big investment.
slxiii
03-07-2010, 01:15 AM
Keep in mind though, that you can only fire ALL of the land raider crusader's weapons if you move 6". Most people choose it because they think they can charge straight across the battlefield shooting everything.... that's not the case.
Son of Guilliman
03-07-2010, 01:59 AM
i run a redeemer in every SM list i build, and i am never sorry for taking it. the ability to truck up 12" and POTMS with a flamer and wipe out an entire squad of MEQ's in cover/on an objective is just too much to pass up. I like the Crusader, it has its high points, but if i am only hittin the table with one LR, i never leave home without my redeemer!
bryce963
03-07-2010, 03:11 PM
Hmm I think I may invest in some more terminators. It would also be a good excuse to get Njal, as I love the model and a runepriest in terminator armor is good stuff.
At 33 normal terminators without anything are a good thing to balance out the more expensive upgrades... But it is hard to resist making a unit of unique uber badasses.
With 5 to go with the priest in a redeemer, 1 chainfist, 1 wolf claw and 1 power fist?
then to bump up to 8 if in a crusader add in one more powerfist.
Son of Guilliman
03-08-2010, 12:58 AM
yeah i would definitely playtest them both a few times and see which one you prefer. To me, its all about which one works with the rest of your army the best, and with mine, its a redeemer, but for you it may be somethin else.
Sir Biscuit
03-08-2010, 01:08 AM
Honestly, the choice is entirely dependent on how many terminators you need to cram in there. If the answer is 5 plus one or a character, take a Redeemer.
I always hear people say that the crusader is better at mid-range support, and that may be true, but come on... six twin linked bolters is NOT an impressive amount of firepower. Over an average six turn game, if the crusader gets to shoot both its hurricane bolters every turn, it will kill with them, on average.... 5.34 marines. Or a whole 16 Orks.
Woo. Compare the Redeemer, which can typically kill that many marines or more in a single shot.
Yeah, the crusader can fire further... so what? Redeemer is the superior option unless you really, really need to deliver two extra terminators. Which is rarely when you have flamestorm cannons to clear the way for 5-6.
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, the crusader BARELY has range on the Redeemer. When moving, (and when isn't a raider moving?) it can only fire those bolters 12". A template is a little over 8" long.
mercer
03-08-2010, 08:21 AM
Without me typing it out again here is some tactica I wrote for a L.R Redeemer against a Crusader variant.
http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/01/land-raider-crusader-vs-land-raider.html
What the LRC has over the LRR for me is flexibility, I don't have to be a flamer template away from a horde (probably a horde with things that will BBQ AV14 in CC) I can sit 24" away if I want to and still put out a decent amount of fire power.
The LRR does appeal to me but I just prefer the idea that I can fire everything if I move 6" and everything is a lot of shots, sure they're "just bolter" but how many times has someone said "they're only lasguns / bolters / whatever" before their elite unit failed the unfailable test and went down?
Sir Biscuit
03-08-2010, 10:25 AM
If you need a tank to sit back and put out firepower, you can buy a three dakkapreds for the same cost a Land Raider crusader, which will net you 18 heavy bolter shots and six autocannon shots instead of six bolter shots and four assault cannon shots.
Also, let's not kid ourselves that a Land Raider is anything but an assault transport. If you're sitting back with it, you are overpaying for ranged support. Second, six bolter shots is not by anyone's standard a lot of firepower, even if they are twin linked. Yeah, the crusader will kill more in the 8.3"-12" range, but any closer than that and it's no contest: Redeemer.
bryce963
03-08-2010, 02:20 PM
I think I like the redeemer, having a full squad of grey hunters with a wolf guard and character sounds great, and 5 terminators with a character sounds great too. Also, the guns on the front and then flamer templates that destroy basically everything sounds good too.
Here is a list I came up with to test over my spring break nerd beach/booze vacation.
1,999
HQ
120 Rune priest, terminator armor
100 Rune priest
Elites
349 Wolf Guard
-Wolf guard power fist x 3
1Wolf guard terminator armor
2Wolf guard terminator armor , powerfist
3Wolf guard terminator armor , chainfist
4Wolf guard terminator armor, 2 wolf claws
5Wolf guard terminator armor, assault cannon
Troops
175 9 grey hunters , melta , rhino
175 9 grey hunters , melta , rhino
160 8 grey hunters melta , rhino
Fast Attack
255 Thunder Wolf x 4, storm shield , powerfist
70 speeder MM HF
70 speeder MM HF
Heavy Support
120 Predator las sponsons
265 LRR , MM, Extra Armor
140 6 long fangs 5 missiles
rle68
03-09-2010, 07:35 PM
Honestly, the choice is entirely dependent on how many terminators you need to cram in there. If the answer is 5 plus one or a character, take a Redeemer.
I always hear people say that the crusader is better at mid-range support, and that may be true, but come on... six twin linked bolters is NOT an impressive amount of firepower. Over an average six turn game, if the crusader gets to shoot both its hurricane bolters every turn, it will kill with them, on average.... 5.34 marines. Or a whole 16 Orks.
Woo. Compare the Redeemer, which can typically kill that many marines or more in a single shot.
Yeah, the crusader can fire further... so what? Redeemer is the superior option unless you really, really need to deliver two extra terminators. Which is rarely when you have flamestorm cannons to clear the way for 5-6.
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, the crusader BARELY has range on the Redeemer. When moving, (and when isn't a raider moving?) it can only fire those bolters 12". A template is a little over 8" long.
ok let me put the kabosh on the thought a redeemer is any more valuable than a crusader cus results prove other wise. a redeemer is hampered by range and while you discount the 6 twin linked rapid fired bolters that hit more then you would think its a combo effect with the assault cannon the added multi melta
i dont care for the redeemer as the range and amount of damage is lessened the range and options for the crusader are more then enough to warrants its use over the other variants
rle68
03-09-2010, 07:36 PM
If you need a tank to sit back and put out firepower, you can buy a three dakkapreds for the same cost a Land Raider crusader, which will net you 18 heavy bolter shots and six autocannon shots instead of six bolter shots and four assault cannon shots.
Also, let's not kid ourselves that a Land Raider is anything but an assault transport. If you're sitting back with it, you are overpaying for ranged support. Second, six bolter shots is not by anyone's standard a lot of firepower, even if they are twin linked. Yeah, the crusader will kill more in the 8.3"-12" range, but any closer than that and it's no contest: Redeemer.
you always fail to mention the 6 twin linked rapid fire shots for some sort of reason thats 12 twin linked shots that decimate hordes the crusader is a horde killer on its own right
therealjohnny5
03-10-2010, 08:39 AM
If you need a tank to sit back and put out firepower, you can buy a three dakkapreds for the same cost a Land Raider crusader, which will net you 18 heavy bolter shots and six autocannon shots instead of six bolter shots and four assault cannon shots.
Also, let's not kid ourselves that a Land Raider is anything but an assault transport. If you're sitting back with it, you are overpaying for ranged support. Second, six bolter shots is not by anyone's standard a lot of firepower, even if they are twin linked. Yeah, the crusader will kill more in the 8.3"-12" range, but any closer than that and it's no contest: Redeemer.
unless it's a LRa terminus ultra! i'll take all those lascannons on a AV14 anyday. lol
as for the Redeemer\ Crusader issue, it all depends on tactics. I like the Crusader for massed range fire as i'm trunking across the field but the redeemer allows for a great tactic i like where you zip up and assault with a unit with Librarian that has GoI when everyone bunches up, in next round of assault, Gate out and torch the unit with both Flamestorms...glorious.
RocketRollRebel
03-14-2010, 10:53 PM
I've used the crusader in my Blood Angels a bit and been a big fan but I'm curious to try out the redeemer when we get ours ;). In the end tho on paper I feel that the Crusader is a better all around choice.
ashnaile
03-28-2010, 02:20 PM
i usually take a redeemer in my 2k and up games as codex marines, feel pretty much obligated to throw on extra armor and a multi melt. 24" melta range that is almost impossible to stop lol.
startalker
03-29-2010, 12:02 AM
Njal needs additional 25 pts to have that rune terminator armor you know...
America
03-29-2010, 05:34 PM
Yes, this is the question . . .
Well know not really but hey.
I have neither and am seriously considering purchasing one. I would think a Crusader would be better. Crusader can move 6" each turn and still fire all weapons up to 24" for a total range of 30". Redeemer can move 6" and fire both Flamestorm cannos for a kill range of 14", although it's a much heavier punch at that. (strength 6 AP 3, I believe). My army currently lacks CC specialization so this will effectively be a really expensive fire magnet.
Might fill it with Sternguard and Pedro or just a full Tac squad:eek: I know scary right?
headrattle
04-01-2010, 04:33 PM
you always fail to mention the 6 twin linked rapid fire shots for some sort of reason thats 12 twin linked shots that decimate hordes the crusader is a horde killer on its own right
Correct me if I am wrong here, but...
Each hurricane Bolter has three twin linked bolter shots. The crusader has 2 hurricane bolters. That makes 6 total twin linked bolter shots. That is slightly more firepower then your typical tactical squad with 7 bolters. That isn't much at 12."
Me, personally, I put a squad of terminators in a Redeemer. If you aren't racing into the enemy with your LRR you aren't doing it right. It should be up front, in their face, spouting out troops and doing damage. Really only useful with Terminators or a command squad. The problem is that against certain weapons they don't last long. Fire Dragons, for example.
The Mystic
04-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Hurricane bolters Rapid fire.
So thats 6 shots at 12 inchs or 3 shots at 24 inchs with re-rolls per Hurricane bolter.
codiddy
04-01-2010, 05:01 PM
Correct me if I am wrong here, but...
Each hurricane Bolter has three twin linked bolter shots. The crusader has 2 hurricane bolters. That makes 6 total twin linked bolter shots. That is slightly more firepower then your typical tactical squad with 7 bolters. That isn't much at 12."
this is true from 12"-24". When you get within 12" the hurricane bolters can rapid fire so it becomes 12 twin-linked bolter shots.
Tynskel
04-01-2010, 05:18 PM
this is true from 12"-24". When you get within 12" the hurricane bolters can rapid fire so it becomes 12 twin-linked bolter shots.
Here's another advantage:
Move 6"
Unload Passengers
Fire 12 Twin-Linked bolter shots, 2 Storm Bolter Shots, 4 Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Shots, then, Power of the Machine Spirit kicks in, and Fires the Multi-Melta at a completely different target.
Now, Fire the squad's weapons...
Now Charge the Squad...
Yowzers!
A Redeemer and a Crusader are both close quarters engagement. A well positioned Redeemer can fire one Flamestorm Cannon, and destroy a lot of stuff! But, you'll never get to fire 4 main weapons effectively (unless your opponent realllllllly wants to get chewed up).
If you are realllllly crazy, put Death Company in there (why not, with Tycho)...
Bwahahahahha!
Fire 12 Twin-Linked bolter shots, 2 Storm Bolter Shots, 4 Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Shots, then, Power of the Machine Spirit kicks in, and Fires the Multi-Melta at a completely different target.
Now, Fire the squad's weapons... 30 Bolter shots, 2 Sternguard Shots...
Now Charge the Squad... 45 Various attacks... + 5 Crazy Tycho attacks (WS 7!).
Granted, the Entire Package is ~+800 points...
HellCrusader
04-29-2010, 07:54 AM
I may be wrong(dont have dex to hand) but i dont think death company tycho is an independant character(i.e. he can't join a death company squad). So either you drop him, or you're sticking the regular version in, this losing control of an otherwise very potent HQ choice...
Better to take a 100pt chaplain so you get re-rolls on everything when you charge(which you had better be doing with a 250pt assault vehicule)!
lobster-overlord
04-29-2010, 08:22 AM
HellCrusader, we have a whole other thread dedicated to the Tycho in the Death Company argument (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=6510) , so leaving that aside, I agree. I plan on running a Crusader packed with 15 Death Company and Chaplain and see what kind of smack down that can bring. I'm basicially shooting for a 1,500 point unit for Apoc games with that beast of a unit.
DarkLink
04-29-2010, 08:41 AM
Here's another advantage:
Move 6"
Unload Passengers
Fire 12 Twin-Linked bolter shots, 2 Storm Bolter Shots, 4 Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Shots, then, Power of the Machine Spirit kicks in, and Fires the Multi-Melta at a completely different target.
Now, Fire the squad's weapons...
Now Charge the Squad...
Yowzers!
A Redeemer and a Crusader are both close quarters engagement. A well positioned Redeemer can fire one Flamestorm Cannon, and destroy a lot of stuff! But, you'll never get to fire 4 main weapons effectively (unless your opponent realllllllly wants to get chewed up).
If you are realllllly crazy, put Death Company in there (why not, with Tycho)...
Bwahahahahha!
Fire 12 Twin-Linked bolter shots, 2 Storm Bolter Shots, 4 Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Shots, then, Power of the Machine Spirit kicks in, and Fires the Multi-Melta at a completely different target.
Now, Fire the squad's weapons... 30 Bolter shots, 2 Sternguard Shots...
Now Charge the Squad... 45 Various attacks... + 5 Crazy Tycho attacks (WS 7!).
Granted, the Entire Package is ~+800 points...
Now ally in a unit of Grey Knights, and assault with them. That's another half dozen storm bolter shots, plus a pair of incinerators. And GKTs are amazing in CC on the charge:D. Unlike the rest of the codex:(.
HellCrusader
04-30-2010, 02:43 AM
@ lobster-overlord
sorry hadnt read that thread...you seem to be having a lot of fun trying to convince other people though...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.