Imperial Guard in Annihilation Matches - Ideas?

[Noxx]

Hey guys,

I'm wondering about how other IG generals might approach Annihilation matches, having got my *** quite thoroughly handed to me at my local wargames club last week - I should preface this by saying that the odds were stacked against me - I turned up to play with a generic, not too well optimised list - I don't really metagame - and picked up a game with a random CSM player, who upon hearing the words "Imperial Guard" went away and wrote up his list there and then- promptly fielding 4 autocannons and about two dozen berserkers, amongst other things.

I make no bones about this - I'm really green at actually playing, I'm much more interested in the hobby aspects of the game. But having played a couple of games like this, I'm wondering, how do other guard players approach Annihilation matches? My basic idea would be to max out my large, points-heavy units like armour and veterans and that kind of thing. I really dislike how Annihilation matches seem to hamstring swarm armies in this fashion - or do they?

This isn't going to be a big problem for me, as I've pretty much gotten bored of guard and moved on to CSM and Blood Angels anyway - it definitely seems like the way forward with IG is armour, armour, armour, and I just don't like spending that much cash on vehicles, as a hobbyist they're just less fun to build and paint compared to infantry models.

So, IG in Annihilation - refuse the game? Circle the wagons to try and force a draw? Love to hear some ideas (preferably better ones than mine, haha). :)

[Sangre]

Don't let your ******* opponent rewrite a list if you can't rewrite yours, would be my advice.

[Noxx]

Yeah, I did feel like that was a bit sketchy, but I was new to the club and didn't want to make a fuss. Guess I would've been better off making a fuss than making a lousy first impression by getting steamrolled, but there we are :D

[Sangre]

Sounds like a pretty dodgy club if rampant list-tailoring to steamroller newbies is dish of the day. Jesus.

[Noxx]

Sounds like a pretty dodgy club if rampant list-tailoring to steamroller newbies is dish of the day. Jesus.

That strikes me like a bit of a snap judgement. Generally friendly atmosphere, and good facilities. But yeah, I won't be taken in by that sort of thing again. Anyway...

[Melissia]

Don't let your ******* opponent rewrite a list if you can't rewrite yours, would be my advice.

Agreed. Don't let people go up against your list with a list designed specifically to counter it. Play against players whom actually have some semblance of talent instead.

[Chumbalaya]

Tailoring is weak, just preaching to the choir.

IG do plenty well in KP games, it's not that much to worry about.

If you compare an army with 8 KPs to an army with 17 KPs, you'd think the former auto-wins Annihilation, yes? Not at all. The problem with low KP armies is that every unit ends up being critical and with only 8 units, you can only damage so many units per turn. The 17 KP army, on the other hand, can be much more flexible, especially if each unit has multiple roles. They can protect each other, separate the lower KP army, hold units in reserve, focus fire, and are individually not as important as the parts of a low KP army.

More units = more options, and options are good.

For IG specific stuff:
-Blob your platoons if you feel the need
-Hide weakened/fragile units inside transports
-Hold stuff in reserve

[Noxx]

Tailoring is weak, just preaching to the choir.

For IG specific stuff:
-Blob your platoons if you feel the need
-Hide weakened/fragile units inside transports
-Hold stuff in reserve

Ah, those are some good suggestions. Thanks. In my last bout I held back a Valk full of tooled veterans, but I could probably take this a step further and keep back my tanks. Combined Squads is a great rule that I totally missed the point of until I read it - guess my ultimate lesson is Read The Codex!

The idea of flexibility as a bonus is a really good point, I hadn't thought of that. Being able to react to the battle as it develops is probably more useful on aggregate than having a heavily specialised army and needing to stick to your plan.

As for the preaching to the choir, yeah, guys, I get it. Won't be taken in by something like that again, but didn't wanna rock the boat on my first visit to a new group. Throwing up my hands in complaint would probably have been a good way to cut my visit short! :D In future I'll be a little more assertive.

[Fellend]

Reserve a vanquisher (the one with the demolisher cannon) nothing keeps scary assault units in line as the threat of instant doom showing up any second.

[Melissia]

The Leman Russ variant you're referring to is simply the Leman Russ Demolisher. The Vanquisher is a long-ranged anti-tank weapon.

[Sam]

Reserve a vanquisher (the one with the demolisher cannon) nothing keeps scary assault units in line as the threat of instant doom showing up any second.

The one with a demolisher cannon would be a demolisher, not a vanquisher.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Noxx]

Id be buggered if Id let my opponent sit down and write one out though......

Jeez. It was kind of last minute, it was my first outing, you're treading very well-trod ground with this observation. The suggestion of bringing multiple lists as a standard is useful though, so cheers for that :)

[The AKH]

The biggest advantage the Guard have in KP games (and any game, for that matter) is being able to outmaneuver and outshoot the enemy (especially MEQs) due to sheer volume of units. Simply throw more units at them in places where they can't hope to kill them all.

[scadugenga]

The biggest advantage the Guard have in KP games (and any game, for that matter) is being able to outmaneuver and outshoot the enemy (especially MEQs) due to sheer volume of units. Simply throw more units at them in places where they can't hope to kill them all.

I would have to agree.

I play a 90% infantry Guard list (initially envisioned in 4th...go fig) and while I'm still learning the Guard (lifelong Eldar player) the volume of freaking fire you can put out is ridiculous.

I've always scoffed at the lasgun before. But trying out IG orders (1st rank/2nd rank & bring it down) the law of large numbers tends to be more effective than I imagined. Even against Mech Eldar. (5th ed Mech codices may be a different matter altogether.)

There's a good reason to "blob" your infantry squads--harder to break, and 1 order effectively affects multiple units.

From the (admittedly) fewish games I've played so far. I've found that the Demolisher tends to attract a ridiculous amount of attention from your opponent, generally leaving you open to counter-punch him with your blobbed up infantry squads to take out key targets to stymie his plans.

And yeah, what everyone else said about the guy who acted like a tool and spot-wrote a specific list to counter your army. Not a nice way to welcome you into a club.

Cheers,

S.

[Sangre]

Agreed. Don't let people go up against your list with a list designed specifically to counter it. Play against players whom actually have some semblance of talent instead.

Holy balls. You agreed with me on something. I knew you fancied me.

[Polonius]

Don't allow multi-charges. Most of the time when IG lose KP missions, it's because at some point, a big enemy unit was able to charge three or four of your squads at once. That's a big swing in a single turn.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[BuFFo]

a random CSM player, who upon hearing the words "Imperial Guard" went away and wrote up his list there and then- promptly fielding 4 autocannons and about two dozen berserkers, amongst other things.

The issue isn't the game, or the mission. The issue is that your opponent is a Win At All Costs ego twit and basically cheated you to make his small penis feel bigger about his painted toys.


I make no bones about this - I'm really green at actually playing,

Well, let me give you advice.

If you come to the store with a premade list, you need to only seek 1) players with premade lists or 2) trustworthy players who will make a balanced list to play you on the spot.

Never ever ever ever ever ever allow a stranger to make a list on the spot to play you. They will virtually always tailor a list to win instead of make a list to have FUN.

What I do sometimes is show up, and I don't even tell my opponent what army I have that day. After they make their list, when we deploy, THAT is when they see my models on the table. This ensures that twits can't tailor against me.

On a side note, that last bit isn't really true, as I INVITE people to tailor lists against me, since I have been playing this game for 22 years. You, though, are new, so make sure you keep your opponents honest.


So, IG in Annihilation - refuse the game? Circle the wagons to try and force a draw? Love to hear some ideas (preferably better ones than mine, haha). :)

Just don't play tailored lists. That is the only advice you need really. People can give you tactical advice all they want, but that won't solve your problem. Your problem is playing WAAC players, and onc you learn how to avoid that, then your games will much more fun for YOU, and you will eventually start to learn to play tactically and win games.

[Polonius]

Honestly, and no offense the to OP, but if a good player with a good IG list shouldn't have difficulty with any Chaos list, no matter how tailored. I get the feeling he's looking for advice that helps him get that good, rather than simply reinfornced the idea that he got snowed. Even if true, it causes a fun, if lost, game to be remembered negatively.

I'm not sure what OP had, but I'm really not sure how four autocannons and some berzerkers lead to an easy win. Easier, maybe, but while KP missions are a challenge for IG some regards, in others they're the easiest to win.

Here's why: IG simply outshoot the opposition. In annihilation, you don't need to move, you can focus on shooting. You're mobility doesn't need to focus on objectives, instead it can focus on knocking out key threats or gang tackling units that get too close.

I'd like to see the OPs list, to see maybe if there's a systemic reason for his struggles. In general, even footslogging IG can compete as long as they blob up. You'll still have tons of independent shooting from HWSs and command squads of both stripes.

OTOH, some matchups are simply tough in kill points. If you're opponent drops two biker warbosses, two bikerz nobs, and some grots, you can't lose more than 5 units if you want to draw or win. Those are pretty rare, and in todays mechanized world, there are lots of easy KPs to be had.

[BuFFo]

Maybe the OP just needs more experience playing against Chaos since he said he was a green player?

[Jwolf]

If you're new to playing, play 30 games and then worry about winning. Sure, you can win against any opponent, even as a green player, but there is no substitute for volume of games in doing well over time.

As to Annihilation specific advice, Chumbalya gave you all there really is that needs to be said, other than focus on 100% killing units, never settle for making them weak.

[DarkLink]

Right, winning in 40k often comes down to very subtle choices, with few clear cut, one size fits all solutions. It takes experience to decide what the best thing to do with any given unit at any given time is, and until you get that experience it will be an uphill battle, really.

[Noxx]

Yeah, the general feeling I'm getting is that with so few matches under my belt, I shouldn't worry about getting steamrolled. Good advice. I'll be careful to avoid tailored lists in future, too - I really didn't realise the effect it could have on the outcome, before now.

For people asking to see my list, it was roughly the following:

HQ: Fairly pimped CCS (carapace armour, autocannon, decent officer weapons, regi standard) 115pts
Master of Ordnance 30pts

Elites:
10 Storm Troopers with Flamer, GL and PW - 185pts
5 Ratlings 50pts
Guardsman Marbo 65pts

Troops:
PCS with platoon standard, sniper rifle, power sword and plasma pistol - 70pts
2 Inf Squads with ML and Flamer - 130pts
HW Squad - Lascannon, 2x Heavy Bolter - 85pts
Veteran Squad - 2 Plasma guns, Carapace Armour, Lucas Bastonne - 200pts

Leman Russ BT with HB sponsons, lascannon - 185pts
Executioner with plasma cannon sponsons, lascannon - 245pts (left the correct attachments at home, so ended up fielding a basic demolisher with no sponsons - d'oh!)

Vendetta Gunship with Hellfury Missiles - 130pts - carried the veterans

I reserved the veterans in the vendetta, deployed everything else in a long gunline across the board, watched as my turn 1 shooting was largely ineffective (blew up a defiler, that was cool) and then got folded up by berserkers in rhinos. Used Marbo to try and lock down the autocannon havocs I moaned about, managed to kill two or three of them, but this was by turn 4 or something so they'd done plenty of damage... Veterans turned up in the vendetta in turn 4 or 5, too late to make any real impact.

My list clearly needs improvement, but I didn't build it from reference to the intarwebs, just kind of used all my vehicles and elites and spent the rest on infantry. I've pretty much shelved the IG now that I have a big painted blood angels army to use instead - I started the IG army years ago when I was much less of a painter, and it shows on the models, they're just no fun to field.

This post is in TL,DR territory, so yeah, hope this satisfies anyone who was interested! Cheers!

[Lord Azaghul]

My list clearly needs improvement, but I didn't build it from reference to the intarwebs, just kind of used all my vehicles and elites and spent the rest on infantry. I've pretty much shelved the IG now that I have a big painted blood angels army to use instead - I started the IG army years ago when I was much less of a painter, and it shows on the models, they're just no fun to field.

This post is in TL,DR territory, so yeah, hope this satisfies anyone who was interested! Cheers!

It sounds like you're kind of building your IG list back wards. IG elites aren't the top of the list, in fact if I'm searching for points its the first category I cut.

Spend points on troops and heavies first, fast next, and eliite last.

A few suggestions on your list itself:
Drop carapice armour, its worthless, you want cover instead.

Drop the storm troopers, sorry but these guys are the worst unit in the new dex.

Drop ALL upgrades on you commanders IE powerfist and powerswords, IG really don't want to be in assult, and its best if they die on your opponents turn if they do!

Vendetta: really should only be fielded with the lascannon variant

Vet Squad: these guys need melta's, drop the special character. If you take plasma stick them on the PCS or the CCS instead.

HW Squads: I take 3 is most of my list. Mortars, AC, LC - drop the heavy bolters, they aren't all purpose enough for the IG.

Basicly your army is too small for IG, you should have more troops on the board, even in annilation, you want to play to wipe you opponent off the table.
Heavy slots: you need some artillary, try adding a medusa or a basilisk in your list.

[RocketRollRebel]

Hmm yeah I've had a hard time with KP in the past. I make the mistake of weakening units instead of killing them off. Also watch your own KP. It seems easy for IG to get into a situation where they need to table their opponent in order to win.

We can all be thankful that we don't have the KP issue that the old codex presented anymore :)

Good luck to you in your future games tho!

[Noxx]

Solid set of advice there Azaghul, thanks! *Bookmarks thread*