A different way of debating the Spirit Leech rule.

[HsojVvad]

Ok this was tried on The Tyranid Hive forum, but it seemed to die down a bit. As I said I would do, after taking a small break of rules discussion I will try this.

These are the rules to participate in the thread. If you don't like it or don't want to fallow the rules, please to post in here. All it will do is derail what this is suppose to do. I will if people want update the first post so we can see what we came to an agreement.

Rule #1, we only talk about one subject at a time that pertains to Spirit Leech rule. Once we come to an agreement, then we move on to anothour topic that pertains to Spirit Leech. An agree ment, can be, yes that what it does, no it dosn't do that, or we can't agree let's move onto something else.

Rule #2, back up your facts. Page numbers in the BRB or the Tyranid codex will help alot. Please non of this just because stuff, or I am right and you are wrong stuff. When someone makes a statement with facts, and you do not agree, please explain why you do not agree with facts as well.

Rule #3, please lets keep this civil, no childish antics, as in other threads, I think it takes away from the thread as well. Lets have fun discussing and debating.

If we are talking about something else, and someone comes in with new information about something we discussed before and the topic is closed, the new topic comes to stop and we go back to the old discussion until it is resovled again.

I will start it off.

Is Spirit Leech a psychic attack? I say no it is not a psychic attack. I am not going by fluff, but just by the rules, becuase fluff does not equalle rules.

On page 62 in the Tyranid codex, it lists all the powers in the Tyranid codex. Spirit Leech is not listed there at all.

On page 58 in the Tyranid codex, it is the Listing for the Doom of Malan'tai. Under Psychic Powers, Spirit Leech is not listed there. Spirit Leech is listed under Special Rules.

So since Spirit Leech is not listed as a psychic power either on page 62 or page 58, I say it is not a psychic power rules wise.

So what do my fellow BoLS memebers say? Is Spirit Leech a psychic power or not? Did I miss anything? Can anyone add more to this? Once this is agreed apon we can discuss something else about Spirit Leech.

Again this discussion is for fun. It is to discuss the rules and debate about Spirit Leech, but one thing at a time. I think where we fail in the other posts is different memembers disucss different topics or things and everything gets jumbled up.

================================================== ====================

Topic being discussed now. If someone wants to discuss a certian topic that applies to SL, lets discuss it. Please only one topic so who ever enters a topic first, we will discuss that one, and if anything after that, will be discussed after the first one is posted.
================================================== ====================

These topics have been agreed apon.

1) Is Spirit Leech a psychic power? It is agreed that SL is not a psychic power. If anyone has something more to add or disagrees with this, we will stop our current debate and come back to this then.

2) Spirit Leech does not effect models but units only. This is closed for now, since the only person to disagree with this, is not coming up with any facts to back his or her statements.

[BuFFo]

Spirit Leech is not a Psychic Power in any way shape or form.

Quite simple, if it were, it would say it was.

[Papa Nurgle]

Most definitely not a psychic power.

[MC Tic Tac]

Dude its the internet and while I appld you honest intentions I give it till page 3 at best till it's a 4chan-est ***** fest.

Personally I think there are no models in range (if in a veichle) so you can't hit whats not there.

But I do understand the 'Yes you can' argument and it's logic.

[gannam]

Can we at least come to a consensus that its not a shooting attack and so none of the targeting rules would apply?

[gannam]

BTW, I found the Tyranid psychic power cards on the GW website. The doom's ability is not in there, so its certainly not considered by GW to be psychic power. The cataclysm power is in there though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m550132a_tyranidpsychicpowercards.pdf

[sorienor]

To be perfectly honest, as far as I'm concerned the question of weather or not it's a psychic power is irrelevant.



A different way of debating not only Spirit Leech but other effects as well.

Is there really such a thing as a non-targeted effect in 40k?

It seems me, that no, there is no reference to non-targeted effects in the rules. In other words, in order for something to effect something else, the first something MUST TARGET the 2nd thing. The first thing can have an area of effect, and target multiple things simultaneously but it is still, essentially, targeting each and every thing that is in that area.

It seems to me that targeted vs non-targeted is an idea that people are carrying over from M:TG more then anything actually spelled out in the 40k rules.

[HsojVvad]

Please only one thing at a time right now. I would love to rebutal sorienor MC tic tac but that is for later. We are talking about if SL is a psychick attack. That is a great point Gannam, so if anyone has any objections, then we will put to close that SL is not a psychic attack. We will go onto another topic now.

So what shall we talk about? Since the 3 non psychic attack questions asked, lets try to get them addressed one at a time.

Since Mc tic tac says since no models in ragne can be effected, it shouldn't effect models in a transport. I would agree with
him, but, SL doesn't effect models but units. If we go by models then that would mean each individual model would roll 3d6 seperately. Well just say Calgar was in a transport and failed his roll, since they are taking rolls individually then Calgar is gone, your opponent would be able to save him and transfer the wound to anyone else because it is models and not units as in shooting attacks and CC attacks.

Also in the Spirit Leech rules, it says units, not models, so it dosn't matter if models are on the board or not. Since the unit is embarked in a vehicle, and it can fire out of firepoints or use psychic weapons, we have to say that the unit is inside the vehicle even though the models are "not on the board". Now we go to the BRB page 66. It says if we ever need to measure a unit that is embarked in a vehicle, we use the vehicles hull. So to me, this is basically saying, instead of using a 25mm round base to measure to, we measure to the vehicle. So the vehicle is the foot print of that unit now.

The vehicle it self cannot be effected by the SL rule, but the units inside are. They are infantry before they embark, they are still infantry when they are in the vehicle, they are still infantry when they disenbark. At no time to they stop being infantry. They are still a non-vehicle unit that is inside a vehicle unit.

So since the models maybe off the board, the unit is not off the board other wise they wouldn't be able to fire out of fireports, or use psychic powers while inside a transport, and the biggest one, is they would be able to disenbark from the vehicle they are in.

Anyone can add onto this that since models not on the board SL can't effect it?

[Fellend]

Just drop it. There's already plenty of threads on the subject. They will all end the same because no final conclussion can ever be reached as it relies simply on the personal interpitation of the rulebook.

[HsojVvad]

Just drop it. There's already plenty of threads on the subject. They will all end the same because no final conclussion can ever be reached as it relies simply on the personal interpitation of the rulebook.

If this fails it fails. I believe there are alot of people who like to discuss and debate it. So what if nothing comes out of this, but I find the major problem of most threads is too many things being debated at once, then when one thing is resolved or at least agree to disagree, someone comes back later and brings back up the topic and more fighting begins again. All I am trying to do is have some fun discussing something without it going all over the place.

If you feel this is a waste of your time, please do not read the thread and participate. We are not forcing you to take part. Either read and add something to this thread or ignore this thread. I know it's not for everyone but for people who like to discuss in a gentlmanly fashion.

Also sorry if I am slow. I am not the brightest person or the smartest. I might have a small handicap or disabillity where I am a slow learner. So I am also trying to make a post where I can make sense of things. Are you happy now? I admit I am slow dimwitted person. Do you feel better now?

[Fellend]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend you and I'm not calling you dimwitted in anyway, god knows I'm not the smartest person (hey this isn't even main main, or secondary language so It's not exactly like my english grammar and rulereading skills are perfect).

I just meant to say that there are already like 5 threads on the subject of which some have been closed. There's been warnings issued and starting ANOTHER one just as the debate is dying down seems a bit like just feeding flames.

I won't bother you anymore. My opinions on this have been made clear in other threads. Have fun debating.

[HsojVvad]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend you and I'm not calling you dimwitted in anyway, god knows I'm not the smartest person (hey this isn't even main main, or secondary language so It's not exactly like my english grammar and rulereading skills are perfect).

I just meant to say that there are already like 5 threads on the subject of which some have been closed. There's been warnings issued and starting ANOTHER one just as the debate is dying down seems a bit like just feeding flames.

I won't bother you anymore. My opinions on this have been made clear in other threads. Have fun debating.

Thanks Fellend glad you didnn't mean to offend. But I think this will not be closed because I am hoping this will be civil and doing discussing one topic at a time, will make it less hectic.

[BuFFo]

Thanks Fellend glad you didnn't mean to offend. But I think this will not be closed because I am hoping this will be civil and doing discussing one topic at a time, will make it less hectic.

Great.

Spirit Leech isn't a Psychic Power.

Next topic then?

[HsojVvad]

Great.

Spirit Leech isn't a Psychic Power.

Next topic then?

How about can Spirit Leech effect models? Someone mentioned about SL and models. I said he was correct that SL dosn't effect models, but does effect squads. Since the models are not on the table, the squad is still on the table.

How do I quote a previous post I already made?

[BuFFo]

How about can Spirit Leech effect models? Someone mentioned about SL and models. I said he was correct that SL dosn't effect models, but does effect squads. Since the models are not on the table, the squad is still on the table.

SL affects only "units". The words "model" and "squads" do not appear in the SL rule.

Units are still in a Transport. The models may not be, but the unit still is.

So no, SL does not care about models. SL only cares about units.

[HsojVvad]

SL affects only "units". The words "model" and "squads" do not appear in the SL rule.

Units are still in a Transport. The models may not be, but the unit still is.

So no, SL does not care about models. SL only cares about units.

I agree. I guess we just have to wait a bit and see if anyone disagrees with this statement before we can move on.

[gannam]

I concur with this. It affects "units". Please also see Runes of warding. This ability also affects Units. Even embarked ones.

[BuFFo]

I agree. I guess we just have to wait a bit and see if anyone disagrees with this statement before we can move on.

They can't disagree.

Maybe if they take a pen and cross out 'unit' and replace it with 'models' would they have an argument.

So far, basic English skills have revealed the following;

1) SL is not a psychic power. It is just an 'ability'.

2) SL affects units. SL does not affect 'models' or 'squads'.

[rkiviman]

Follow what the rule book says and quit beating a dead horse!!

[Fellend]

They can't disagree.

Maybe if they take a pen and cross out 'unit' and replace it with 'models' would they have an argument.

So far, basic English skills have revealed the following;

1) SL is not a psychic power. It is just an 'ability'.

2) SL affects units. SL does not affect 'models' or 'squads'.

Read page 3 of the rulebook.

[Bean]

Read page 3 of the rulebook.

Did that. Nothing there contradicts any of what Buffo said.

[HsojVvad]

Read page 3 of the rulebook.

I was about to close if SL effects models or units. But I read this. Fellend, I do not understand what you mean by reading page 3. What are you trying to say? I am trying to be fair here and listen to all sides of the arguments.

So Fellend how does page 3 releate to SL effecting units or models?

Please remember the rules. If you cannot explain yourself properly please don't post. All this does, is get people upset because the explanation is not clear enough, and sort of give the attitude that you are right and everyone else is wrong, without a proper explanation. I do not want this in this thread please.

So please can you explain what you mean by your statement?

[Fellend]

What page 3 says is that unit is just a word for +1 model. If there's a model there's a unit, but a unit cannot exist without a model.

[gcsmith]

the can you please say why pg 66 says we may measure to the unit

[HsojVvad]

What page 3 says is that unit is just a word for +1 model. If there's a model there's a unit, but a unit cannot exist without a model.

I thinnk I understand where you are coming from but you are taking things a little bit too literal now. I know I was like you taking every English word litterally. After months of debating I have finally understood what GW is suppose to mean. Yes it's not right what GW did, but if you can look at it that way, it becomes a bit more clearer.

Yes a unit is +1 model, but a unit is also ONE model as well. Sorry right now I can't give page references but maybe someone else can or explain it better than me.

Please try to understand this with an open mind please.

Models does not equalle units, and units do not equale models.

When MODELS are on the field and they belong together being it either a brood or a squad or what ever you want to call it, it is called a UNIT.

To fire at a UNIT, you need to target a MODEL with Line of Sight (LoS). So when you fire at a UNIT, all you need is one MODEL to see. You don't need to see all the MODELS, but just one MODEL.

See here? You are shooting at a UNIT, even though you can only see one MODEL. Because the way wound allocation works, once you find out how many hits you have and roll succefully for wounds, it is allocated to the unit not the MODEL that can be seen only. Why does GW keep saying UNIT and MODEL in different cases? Why not just stick with one word only and not swictch both words? GW words it like this because units dose not equale models, and models dose not equale units. You keep saying page 3, page 3, what about page 3? Please quote word for word what you mean and then explain what you mean.

Again, you give one line sentences and don't explain anything.

Why does GW say SL effects UNITS and not MODELS. How does the apply to page 3? I repeat myself once again, why does GW say UNITS? Why not use MODELS instead? GW dosn't use models because it effects all the UNIT as a whole. If it was to be MODELS, then that would mean each and every model would have to roll a LD, and if one takes a wound and it turns out to be a 250 point HQ choice, then he would have to take the wound and not be allocated then.

Another point, back to shooting, to shoot at a target, you need to see ONE MODEL, not a unit. If you can see the ONE MODEL, then the UNIT can be shot at.

When a UNIT embarks on a transport, models are removed becuase they can't be placed in the model that is representing the vehicle. If you can do it, then great. So lets say you can put the MODELS in the vehicle, and you want to shoot at that UNIT, can you see any MODEL? No because the vehicle blocks LoS to that UNIT or MODELS, so not shooting or CC can happen. Just because you can't see the MODELS, dosn't mean that the UNIT is not there. The UNIT is still there but no MODELS can be see for LoS purposes.

Does this make any sense? If not please tell me what dosn't make any sense. Maybe someone else can explain it better than what I was trying to say.

[Fellend]

"A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,such a battle tank,a monsterious alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all these things will be refered to as units."

So not only does it tell us that a unit is 1+ models (yes that's 1 plus the possibility of more) it also tells os that in the rules that follow all these weill be refered to as units. whether it's one model or twenty.



This brings us to the question about wound allocation while you are shooting. Yes you target a single model and then the wounds are dispersed among the unit allocated by the controlling player. The spirit leech functions in a simular way. If there's a unit (see previous statement 1+ models) within it's range it deals damage to the ENTIRE UNIT no matter how many that are inside, so it needs just to touch a single model to affect the whole unit unlike say a blast which deals damage according to how many models it's used.

This is a direct effect of the way the damage is dispersed. As it unlike a blast deals damage to the entire unit it needs to touch units not models because otherwise one model (the only one touched) would recieve a staggering amount of wounds.

The entire spirit leech rule is written with this in mind. It's a huge buff being able to target an entire unit with an aoe effect and not just the ones being touched by it, but people are twisting the words to make it into something it's not.

I take the fact that the books specifically mentiones that 1(+) models are a unit and from there on in the rules will be refered to as UNITS as a very specific rule. There is no magical difference between a unit and a model which is exactly what the entire spirit leech debate is about.

[gcsmith]

actually there is a difference, if the word model means the same as a unit, then 5 terminators which is 5 models would be 5 units, we know there is one unit. models are different to units, models make up a unit, the fact is tho that pg 66 says we may measure to the units without neeeding their models.

[BuFFo]

I thinnk I understand where you are coming from but you are taking things a little bit too literal now. I know I was like you taking every English word litterally. After months of debating I have finally understood what GW is suppose to mean. Yes it's not right what GW did, but if you can look at it that way, it becomes a bit more clearer.

Yes a unit is +1 model, but a unit is also ONE model as well. Sorry right now I can't give page references but maybe someone else can or explain it better than me.

Please try to understand this with an open mind please.

Models does not equalle units, and units do not equale models.

When MODELS are on the field and they belong together being it either a brood or a squad or what ever you want to call it, it is called a UNIT.

To fire at a UNIT, you need to target a MODEL with Line of Sight (LoS). So when you fire at a UNIT, all you need is one MODEL to see. You don't need to see all the MODELS, but just one MODEL.

See here? You are shooting at a UNIT, even though you can only see one MODEL. Because the way wound allocation works, once you find out how many hits you have and roll succefully for wounds, it is allocated to the unit not the MODEL that can be seen only. Why does GW keep saying UNIT and MODEL in different cases? Why not just stick with one word only and not swictch both words? GW words it like this because units dose not equale models, and models dose not equale units. You keep saying page 3, page 3, what about page 3? Please quote word for word what you mean and then explain what you mean.

Again, you give one line sentences and don't explain anything.

Why does GW say SL effects UNITS and not MODELS. How does the apply to page 3? I repeat myself once again, why does GW say UNITS? Why not use MODELS instead? GW dosn't use models because it effects all the UNIT as a whole. If it was to be MODELS, then that would mean each and every model would have to roll a LD, and if one takes a wound and it turns out to be a 250 point HQ choice, then he would have to take the wound and not be allocated then.

Another point, back to shooting, to shoot at a target, you need to see ONE MODEL, not a unit. If you can see the ONE MODEL, then the UNIT can be shot at.

When a UNIT embarks on a transport, models are removed becuase they can't be placed in the model that is representing the vehicle. If you can do it, then great. So lets say you can put the MODELS in the vehicle, and you want to shoot at that UNIT, can you see any MODEL? No because the vehicle blocks LoS to that UNIT or MODELS, so not shooting or CC can happen. Just because you can't see the MODELS, dosn't mean that the UNIT is not there. The UNIT is still there but no MODELS can be see for LoS purposes.

Does this make any sense? If not please tell me what dosn't make any sense.

Your concepts and ideas about this situation has literally blown my mind. I think I am going to have to print your post and frame it over my bed, because you are one of the only online 40k posters who actually knows what he is talking about. :eek:

When I unfold a Playboy Centerfold to look at, I would rather gawk at your post than any woman as the page unfolds in my lap.


Maybe someone else can explain it better than what I was trying to say.

I don't think that is even remotely possible.

:cool: -Golf Clap- :cool:

[HsojVvad]

I think the topic does Spirit Leech effect models or units has come to a close, unless someone has something new to add, or something more explained.

What shall we discuss next?

[Fellend]

Yes I like how the other side is just ignored. Just go on with it and say that spirit leech is allowed because you clearly have no intention to debate it.

However I'm done arguing. I'll let you have fun twisting the words and choosing the select parts of the rulebook you like.

[HsojVvad]

Yes I like how the other side is just ignored. Just go on with it and say that spirit leech is allowed because you clearly have no intention to debate it.

However I'm done arguing. I'll let you have fun twisting the words and choosing the select parts of the rulebook you like.

I asked you to explain yourself, all you do is give one line sentences wich I don't understand. I always said we would go back to a previous topic if need be, it's not case closed.

Please look at it from my point of view. I have been reading alot of your posts here on BoLS, all you do is give one sentence answers and not explaing what you mean. I have asked for this thread to explain what you are trying to say, and so far you havn't done that. I don't want to be reading one sentences from you saying someone is wrong without explaining yourself. I have read, in 2 maybe 3 threads that you keep refering to page 3, and not once do I know what you are talking about. Not once did I see you explain what you are trying to relay. I don't see that changing. Yes I a assuming, and I shouldn't be assuming, and for that I am sorry, I appologise.

But as I said, look at it from my point of view, I don't want this to turn into other threads, so please quote what you mean, and explain what you mean, what is on page 3 then. I still don't get it. What are you trying to say?

[Fellend]

"A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,such a battle tank,a monsterious alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all these things will be refered to as units."

So not only does it tell us that a unit is 1+ models (yes that's 1 plus the possibility of more) it also tells us that in the rules that follow all these will be refered to as units. whether it's one model or twenty.



This brings us to the question about wound allocation while you are shooting. Yes you target a single model and then the wounds are dispersed among the unit allocated by the controlling player. The spirit leech functions in a simular way. If there's a unit (see previous statement 1+ models) within it's range it deals damage to the ENTIRE UNIT no matter how many that are inside the area, so it needs just to touch a single model to affect the whole unit unlike say a blast which deals damage according to how many models it's used.

This is a direct effect of the way the damage is dispersed. As it unlike a blast deals damage to the entire unit it needs to touch units not models because otherwise one model (the only one touched) would recieve a staggering amount of wounds.

The entire spirit leech rule is written with this in mind. It's a huge buff being able to target an entire unit with an aoe effect and not just the ones being touched by it, but people are twisting the words to make it into something it's not.

I take the fact that the books specifically mentiones that 1(+) models are a unit and from there on in the rules will be refered to as UNITS as a very specific rule. There is no magical difference between a unit and a model which is exactly what the entire spirit leech debate is about.

This post for example which you blatantly ignored. Is not one sentence.

[HsojVvad]

"A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,such a battle tank,a monsterious alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all these things will be refered to as units."

So not only does it tell us that a unit is 1+ models (yes that's 1 plus the possibility of more) it also tells os that in the rules that follow all these weill be refered to as units. whether it's one model or twenty.



This brings us to the question about wound allocation while you are shooting. Yes you target a single model and then the wounds are dispersed among the unit allocated by the controlling player. The spirit leech functions in a simular way. If there's a unit (see previous statement 1+ models) within it's range it deals damage to the ENTIRE UNIT no matter how many that are inside, so it needs just to touch a single model to affect the whole unit unlike say a blast which deals damage according to how many models it's used.

This is a direct effect of the way the damage is dispersed. As it unlike a blast deals damage to the entire unit it needs to touch units not models because otherwise one model (the only one touched) would recieve a staggering amount of wounds.

The entire spirit leech rule is written with this in mind. It's a huge buff being able to target an entire unit with an aoe effect and not just the ones being touched by it, but people are twisting the words to make it into something it's not.

I take the fact that the books specifically mentiones that 1(+) models are a unit and from there on in the rules will be refered to as UNITS as a very specific rule. There is no magical difference between a unit and a model which is exactly what the entire spirit leech debate is about.

I am sorry, for what ever reason, I have missed the last few posts. I apologize for this. I don't know if I had a problem with my computer or BoLS, but whenever the last few days, I hit the button that lets your go to the first unread post , it kept me going back to what I read a few days ago. Maybe when this post came, it was the same time I was reading something and just past it, but I have missed this post. I am sorry, I didn't see it and it didn't show up yesterday for me for what ever reason. Now I see a few posts that I haven't seem either so going back and rereading everything to make shure I havn't missed anything again.

I hope you do take my apologies Fellend.

[HsojVvad]

"A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,such a battle tank,a monsterious alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all these things will be refered to as units."

So not only does it tell us that a unit is 1+ models (yes that's 1 plus the possibility of more) it also tells os that in the rules that follow all these weill be refered to as units. whether it's one model or twenty.



This brings us to the question about wound allocation while you are shooting. Yes you target a single model and then the wounds are dispersed among the unit allocated by the controlling player. The spirit leech functions in a simular way. If there's a unit (see previous statement 1+ models) within it's range it deals damage to the ENTIRE UNIT no matter how many that are inside, so it needs just to touch a single model to affect the whole unit unlike say a blast which deals damage according to how many models it's used.

This is a direct effect of the way the damage is dispersed. As it unlike a blast deals damage to the entire unit it needs to touch units not models because otherwise one model (the only one touched) would recieve a staggering amount of wounds.

The entire spirit leech rule is written with this in mind. It's a huge buff being able to target an entire unit with an aoe effect and not just the ones being touched by it, but people are twisting the words to make it into something it's not.

I take the fact that the books specifically mentiones that 1(+) models are a unit and from there on in the rules will be refered to as UNITS as a very specific rule. There is no magical difference between a unit and a model which is exactly what the entire spirit leech debate is about.

Ok, now I see where you are coming from. You are saying Models = Units. Ok, very good point. So if a model is a unit and the model is off the table, does that mean the unit is off the table? Is that what you mean?

[Fellend]

Apology accepted and thank you for your courteous answer.
Yes that is what I mean, If there is no models on the board there is no unit. The only model that is on the board is the transport. The Transport has a special rule which allows embarked units to shoot out of it. This is a special exception to the rule of them not existing. They do still not exist as there are no models to represent the unit beyond the vehicle.

Page 66 tells us that if for anycase we need to measure to the embarked unit (For example troops in their transports and the special allowance for them to capture objectives) We measure from the hull. But all of these are special rules mentioned specifically in the rulebook. And none of them ignores the fact that there are armor bought and paid for with the specific purpose to shield models by removing them from the field.


A note on Smart missile system.
"The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless whether there's a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in or are touching if it lies between them and the firer."

So using the logic of the SL not only can SMS hit any target as it's not a unit or a model, it can fire through vehicles and it can single out independant characters joined to another squad. Is this a total abuse of the english language to twist the rules? Yes of course it is but nowhere does it say that it cant' Because it ignores line of sight and it says specifically that it can engage any TARGET it's possible to do it.

[HsojVvad]

Apology accepted and thank you for your courteous answer.
Yes that is what I mean, If there is no models on the board there is no unit. The only model that is on the board is the transport. The Transport has a special rule which allows embarked units to shoot out of it. This is a special exception to the rule of them not existing. They do still not exist as there are no models to represent the unit beyond the vehicle.

Page 66 tells us that if for anycase we need to measure to the embarked unit (For example troops in their transports and the special allowance for them to capture objectives) We measure from the hull. But all of these are special rules mentioned specifically in the rulebook. And none of them ignores the fact that there are armor bought and paid for with the specific purpose to shield models by removing them from the field.


A note on Smart missile system.
"The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless whether there's a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in or are touching if it lies between them and the firer."

So using the logic of the SL not only can SMS hit any target as it's not a unit or a model, it can fire through vehicles and it can single out independant characters joined to another squad. Is this a total abuse of the english language to twist the rules? Yes of course it is but nowhere does it say that it cant' Because it ignores line of sight and it says specifically that it can engage any TARGET it's possible to do it.

I am agreeing with you, but a few things I don't agree with. for one thing, you use the word "do not exsist". I don't know if this is the way I interput the word 'exsist'. For me if they do not exsist, then they can't fire, even though the vehicle has fire ports, they can't disenbark out of a vehicle. For them not exsisting, how can it effect anything? To me, 'do not exsist' means it's not there either they died or were never there in the first place. For me, I don't see just because entering a vehicle they magically disapear and then reapear when then disenbark. So I say yes they do exsist. Another point about the word 'not exsisting' is where in the BRB that says once a unit enters a vehicle the unit no longer exsists? That is why I say, yes the models are not on the table, but the unit is still on the table but just in a vehicle as if it was like in a building. The models might be in the building, but depending on how we made the building, all the minitures might not be able to fin inside so they are "off the table" but still inside the building. Yes I know they are different rules but just trying to say how it is similiar.

I have a question. Why does GW keep using the words models and units through out the book if they are suppose to be the same? I believe that models and units when referred diffently don't mean one and the same. The problem here is, since we are going by RAW, I can't prove it. You have proved on page 3, that models = units and units=models. So there fore through out the BRB it should mean one and the same. So why would GW even bother with the words models anymore? Shouldn't they be saying units from here on out and never mention the word model anymore? Is this bad GW writing skills or did they really mean the words to be different?

As an example the way I read the rules, about Template weapons. Why even bother mentioning the word models? It should just say place the Template over the squad and over as many minitures, but it dosn't it says models. So if we are to hit as many models in the squad they are just repeating themselves over and over again. ( I guess something like I do. But then again, I am not a proffesional writer and havn't been in the business for over 25 years :)).

Also why in the shooting phase, why does GW say if you can see a model then you can shoot it. Why not just say, if you can see the unit, you can shoot at it. It dosn't, so to me, model and unit have different meanings.

What about the rule on page 11? Under Models in the Way.

It says, models may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (wich is represented by it's base or hull) ...

Since models=units and units=models, we can say then Units may not move into or through the space occupied by another unit... so if we go by this statement, then someone like Tyranids can't do this.

X= brood 1 of gaunts
Y=brood 2 of gaunts.

XXXXX
YYYYY
XXXXX
YYYYY

So this tactic can't be used because units can't move into or thorugh other units. Even though X is only 2" away from X and Y is 2" away from Y and they are in unit co-hererency. But I read in other posts some people do this to get cover saves, so since units can't go trough units, this is an illegal tactic then. So either poeople are playing it wrong, or if they are playing it correctly, that would mean units can go through units, and GW used the word models because a model can't go through a model physically or occuping the same space. Since GW used the word model in this instance, then model=unit and unit=models statement has to be incorrect then.

Can you for the moment ignore the rule on page 3, and say model=/= (does not equal) unit and unit =/=model. Does it make sense that if a unit embarks a vehicle, the models are off the table but the unit is still on the table. Since there are no models to see, it can't be targeted for shooting attacks or CC attacks. Since the unit is still on the table, and SL effects units and not models this can be a possibility?

If this is not a possiblility what about psychic hoods? Since it's not a shooting attack and can't use fire ports can the Libriarian in a Vehicle nullify a psychic power then? What about a Librarian out side a vehicle? Can it effect a psyker inside a transport then?

AS to the Tau Smart Missle System. Isn't it a shooting attack? If we go to the rule on page 66 again, we draw to the vehicle hull to find the unit inside correct? Well we can do this, for anything expcept for shooting. Since the Tau's SMS is a shooting attack there is no way to find the target since it can't measure the range to the unit. Sicne I have no experinace with Tau or agaisnt it, I might be wrong, but this is the way I read it. Please correct me in any mistakes I have made.

Sorry for being long winded, to summerize

You are correct about model=unit and unit=model because it is RAW. I believe you are incorre about using the term 'not exsisting' though.

Since I say model=/=unit and unit =/=model, I am only going by RAI, but tried to show an example why model=/=unit.

[Fellend]

Ah yes. I'm sorry english is not my main language and I'm studying japanese right now, exist has become somewhat of a catch word (arimasu/imasu).

What I mean by not existing is that they are off the table. They are not on the table so they cannot affect the table directly they can however give the vehicle they are in certain advantages.

"Units of troops embarked in a transport can control objectives. (Measure to the vehicles hull)"
- P90 RB

"A transport vehicle may have one or more firing points defined in it's entry. A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more of the passengers inside can fire(or use a psychic power)

Unless specified differently in the vehicle's entry a single passenger may fire out of the firing point and the other transported models may not fire. Range and line of sight is measured from the firing point itself.

Models firing from a vehicle counts as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle has moved at cruising speed."
-P66 RB

"When the unit embarks it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing of the units models on top of the transport works well!). If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for it's shooting) this range is measured to and from the vehicles hull"
-P66 RB

So we have learned that a unit is = 1+ models. And once 1+ models embark upon the vehicle they are removed from the table because it's being transported.
Two different rules are special exceptions to this allowing firepoints to be used to shoot out of (it should be noted that firing points are a special characteristic of the vehicle.)
And granting embarked troops the right to claim objectives using the vehicle as a proxy.

The firing point rule is quite clearly pointing out that the firing point is to be treated like a vehicle weapon. If the vehicle moves, it effects the weapon. Range and line of sight is measured to and from the Firing point and not from the hull. All this points to the fact that the firing point should be treated as an empty weapon which can be filled by the passanger.

So with exception to the two exceptions mentioned in the rulebooks. we have clear knowledge that the unit is no longer upon the table. The only thing left on the table is a vehicle which attains certain special rules once a unit has embarked in it. And vehicles cannot be affected by spirit leech.



I agree that I don't think GW intended to make Model = Unit. But Strict RAW interpretation says so. And since the entire spirit leech debate is about strict raw interpetation we have to go with that.
Of course this causes huge collisions with later rules but so does Spirit leech as it creates situations which the book really doesn't have answers for. (Falling back out of vehicle and so on)
So no it cannot be ignored, because if we choose to select which words we twist to fit our agenda then we can make the rules say whatever we want.
Basically all the entire debate boils down to is that you can change the word in the SL description to any non vehicle MODEL that is underneath gets bla bla bla wounds.
So there you have it. Technically according to strict raw interepation the SL hits any MODEL that is underneath the area and a model is a miniature and a miniature has to be on the table for it to be affected and the embarking rules clearly state that they are no longer on the table.





My personal opinion is simply that 1+ model equals a unit. just as a member is part of a group so is a model part of a unit. But the rules p3 clearly states that a model must have a miniature thus to be a unit you have to have a model which is a minature. And if there's no minature there's nothing to affect.

And the TAU sms. is a shooting attack yes. But unlike normal shooting attacks it's aimed at a TARGET and not a model. It needs not to draw line of sight it just needs to be in range. And since the target can be a unit, the unit is measured from the hull as long as the hull of the transport is in range it can target and even single out specific models.
This according the SL theory. And this is exactly what happends if you fixate to hard on a single word instead of reading as intended.

(I play Black Templar I have no idea what a psychic hood is)

[HsojVvad]

I am really enjoying this debate Fellend. Just a small correction first. You say 1+ model. Does this mean 2? Or do you mean one or more models? I see the difference in way people talk in the English language. I went back and read page 3 again and a SINGLE model can be considered a unit as well. :)

Since we are going by RAW only for this debate, I have to concede at that SL cannot effect units since models=units and units=models. I have no way of debating this because the examples I gave would be RAI then. I was going to comment on SMS but since we are going by RAW, I can't comment any futher.

You are correct SL opens up lots more questions, but these questions were already in exsitence as soon as 5th edtion came out. Problem is nobody tought of these questions until DoM and SL came out. There was always the problem of taking 'Gets Hot' rules. There was always problems for Tau units to take Ld tests if in a vehicle, they just never been adressed that's all. I guess the SL and DoM just brought them out in the forefront.

A psychic hood is a tool for SM, (I am not shure if IG or anyone else has them) to negate a psychic power from an enemy psyker. Dark Angels psychic hood is the whole board (4th edtion) while the new SM is units within 24". Something like a Ld test is rolled. You roll a d6 and add it to your Ld. Same goes for the opponent. The person with the psychic hood, needs to roll the same or more than the other person and the psychic power that the opponent casts will be negated and not cast then, and is lost.

I will have to wait till someone else has something to add to the debate about models=unit and unit=models. I can't find any proof to debate this. I am at a loss now, because I can't prove by RAW that I am correct now. :eek:

:D

[gcsmith]

The problem is you keep qouting rules, correct as they are, and seem to ignore that while you need a model to measure to normaly page 66 provides an exception. I do understand where your coming from and I feel we just have different interpretations, so I dnt see any point to argue, interpretations are like thoughts, each ones got one, but you cant control what they think :p

[Fellend]

Hsoj/Vvad
with one+ I mean one plus the potenial of more. So one or more models.
Yep clearly the fallback rule is a bit wierd at the moment.



The problem is you keep qouting rules, correct as they are, and seem to ignore that while you need a model to measure to normaly page 66 provides an exception. I do understand where your coming from and I feel we just have different interpretations, so I dnt see any point to argue, interpretations are like thoughts, each ones got one, but you cant control what they think :p

You haven't read what I've written. The rules I've posted are specific exceptions to the rule that tells you to remove the unit from play once they are embarked.

The SL does not provide such a specific exception. It just says that it will affect any unit within reach. And a unit requires a model which is a miniature. The only miniature within the 6" inches is a transport. The transport is a vehicle and thus unaffected.

This being my entire point. You affect something which is not there. As then you might as well start hitting units in reserve

The SL rule is being read with the "permissive ruleset" to allow it to do things which it was not intended to.
(I hope, you never know with GW)
But there's nothing in the rules which says that I cannot throw rocks at your models. Or that I can't use my 1 point uberdoom baneblade.
In fact nowhere in the rules does it say that I can't make my own secret victory condition and claim victory whenever it's fulfilled.

Just as the permissive ruleset can let you read it like SL will affect transported units so will a permissive ruleset let you read the transport rules like the transport will protect you from it.

It's a dead end discussion. The only real solution is to discuss it with your opponent before the game and reach a solution that will allow you to play. Roll a die or let the one who wins the discussing buy the drinks during the game.

[Madness]

And a unit requires a model (to be measured to) which is a miniature.That is incorrect, a unit USUALLY requires a model to be measured to, page 66 gives you an exception to the normal rules, allowing you to measure the distance to a unit by the means of ANOTHER miniature.

[Fellend]

As noted by special exceptions. Not neccesairly the SL. As the minature that they are measuring to is a vehicle, SL doesn't affect vehicles. Without a infantry Miniature = model = Unit to affect, SL is useless. But once again this is simply a matter of permissive transport protection versus permissive SL aggression. There's no way to end this debate.

[HsojVvad]

As noted by special exceptions. Not neccesairly the SL. As the minature that they are measuring to is a vehicle, SL doesn't affect vehicles. Without a infantry Miniature = model = Unit to affect, SL is useless. But once again this is simply a matter of permissive transport protection versus permissive SL aggression. There's no way to end this debate.

So shall we discuss something else then about SL then? I don't know, there is no way we can argure RAW about model=unit unit=model debate. I can't think of anything new to add and have to admit to defeat by RAW wording.

So my friends, shall we close Does SL effect models and move onto something else? Since it was mentioned before, shall we discuss are units embarked in a vehicle, can they be effected by anthing and\or are they really there or in a magical place immune from anything? I don't mean any disrespect by saying magical place, I just don't know how else to word where they go.

[Madness]

As noted by special exceptions. Not neccesairly the SL. As the minature that they are measuring to is a vehicle, SL doesn't affect vehicles. Without a infantry Miniature = model = Unit to affect, SL is useless. But once again this is simply a matter of permissive transport protection versus permissive SL aggression. There's no way to end this debate.
The embarked unit doesn't cease to exist, it does exist in the embarked status, which confers some special rules as listed in the page 66 column.

It also doesn't change its unit type.

In said column we are given a way for people to measure ranges involving the embarked unit, and since tDoMSL requires us to measure a range involving the unit (and not involving the vehicle unit that's transporting it) we use that rule.

The fact that we are using a vehicle hull as geographical point for the measure doesn't change the type of the embarked unit, that's still what it was before embarking.

[Fellend]

But if you allow that reasoning we have blast templates hitting the entire unit within the transport. As miniature = model = unit a blast just needs to target a model which is = unit and the unit is measured from the the hull of the transport (miniature) meaning that all models in the squad gets hit by a blast simply touching the vehicle.
And if the unit is as you pointed out not a vehicle then the armor would not protect it.

See where all of this go straight to the warp?

[Madness]

I never said miniature = model = unit I said that when "measuring a range involving a unit" we can use the transport hull as measuring point for the embarked unit.

"measuring a range involving a unit", THEN and ONLY THEN are we allowed to, a blast is not a measure.

[HsojVvad]

I think we still have to remember, that the model=unit is off the table only in respects that the minitures cannot fit into the actual miniture of the vehicle. In all facts the model=unit is still on the table, but inside a vehicle.

It is like if you are in a vehicle, and it crashes, you get hurt or die. Same thing applies here as well. GW knows they don't fit and don't want people trying to do it so they don't ruin their minitures so they say off the table. That is why GW says you may place a model ontop of a vehicle to know what model=unit is in the vehicle.

So since we are not going to get an answer to the Does a SL effect models or units, I think this disucssion will come to a close and we can disucss about if models, units can be effected inside a vehicle AND when models or units are embarked in a vehicle are they really "off the table" or actually inside a vehicle.

As I said above, yes the models are removed because they can't physically be put inside a vehicle, so that is why they are off the table. But the models or unit are inside the vehicle. They are not off into some pocket univers or anywhere else you want to consider where you put your minitures. They are inside the vehicle.

Maybe I need more explanation about being off the table here. Again I have an open mind, and I conceded (just me, nobody else has) about models=units since I can't prove this wrong. So now we have to prove that models, units what ever we call them are still on the table but inside the vehicle.

So once the squad (because using the words models and units is not agreeded apon and is causing debate, lets try squad or brood or what ever) embarks a vehicle where does it go? The squad enters inside the vehicle. Yes the minitures are removed off the board to make it easier, (as explained above) but the squad is still on the table. Since you don't see any minitures because they are inside a vehicle, you can't target the squad and shoot it, or Assault it.

About Fire points, they let the squad inside to shoot out. Fire points don't magically allow a unit that is not there fire like transporters in Star Trek. The unit is there all the time, it dosn't come in and out. So if say a SM fires a Plasma Gun and rolls a One, it "gets hot" and it could fail it's save and die inside a vehicle. Just because it's in a vehicle it dosn't mean it is immune to the "gets hot" effects.

Also unts in a vehicle are not immune to Ld tests. The vehicle it's self is immune but not the sqad inside.

So what now needs to be proven is why are models or units are immune inside a vehicle? They are not immune to anything. We have to go by previous rules already stated as to why a model or unit cannot be effected.

To summerise, you can't assault or shoot a unit in a vehicle becuase you don't see any minitures for LoS so it can't be targeted. Just as if it was hiding behind a building. You can't see a miniture, you can't target it. Also on page 66 of the BRB it says you can't draw disntance to a model or unit inside a vehicle if it is for a shooting attack. That is why Non LoS weapons can't target a unit in a vehicle either because it's a shooting attack.

But there is no other rules that say models or units are immune to anything else just because they are in a vehicle. So the proof has to be what page number in the BRB or BRB FAQ that says units can't take dammage for what ever other reasons. Where does it say that if a SM shoots a plasma gun and gets a "gets hot" and fails it's save that it dosn't take damage. Where does it say that when a certian Tau character dies, that Tau inside a vehicle dosn't have to take the Ld test?

Sorry guys, I am not feeling good this morning, I really messed up this post but hopefully you can understand what I mean. I am going back to bed now. Hopefully I will feel better when I wake up.

Cheers :)

[Madness]

That's a lot of irrelevant stuff. I'm not saying if it's wrong or right because I could only make out half of it, but it's not relevant.

I myself had the decency of opening new threads to discuss new things, derailing the discussion every time there's a whim for it is disruptive.

Plus, you're making up game terms such as "target it".

If you browse around you'll find that those discussions (can a unit take a Ld test inside a vehicle? can it fall back?) were already started.

[Fellend]

Madness have you read anything that's been said in the discussion so far or did you just choose to pop in and add one sentence comments claiming things are incorrect because it amuses you?.

and target it is not a game term it's the english language. it's easier than saying letting one unit shoot, draw line of sight to, assault, any other valid game term.

Not to mention that the SMS specifically mention that it hits TARGETS and not models. which is also pointed out in the previous discussion.


I never said miniature = model = unit I said that when "measuring a range involving a unit" we can use the transport hull as measuring point for the embarked unit.

"measuring a range involving a unit", THEN and ONLY THEN are we allowed to, a blast is not a measure.

This is exactly the discussion that has been going on. It's been proven that RAW says that a miniature is a model and a model is a unit.
I won't quote the entire thing again but look at p3.
so when measuring a range involving a unit is the same as measuring a range involving a miniature.
And if we allow SL to use the transports hulls a replacement for the miniature then we must do so for all other effects.

Blasts says to look at which model (which are by RAW the same thing as a minature or unit) are underneath the blastmarker. And since we are allowed to use the transport model as a replacement for the embarked unit (which is still the same as model/miniature) it hits all models inside.
Not to mention this still allows SMS to target units inside vehicles as it requires you to measure the distance.
Blasts are a rule with an area of effect the area being the blast template and thus you are doing measurement.
You are also doing a measurment to see if it has landed on target.

[Madness]

Blasts says to look at which model (which are by RAW the same thing as a minature or unit) are underneath the blastmarker. And since we are allowed to use the transport model as a replacement for the embarked unit (which is still the same as model/miniature) it hits all models inside.
No, we are allowed to use the transport model instead of the normal unit models only when measuring a range, checking what a blast marker is covering is NOT measuring a range, hence, page 66 applies not.

[Fellend]

Ignoring the SMS i see, Also the holy orb of antioch which is infact not a shooting attack it's simply thrown in the shooting phase instead of shooting with a weapon. It targets units. (yes it actually says targeted unit)
It reaches 12" I assume we have to measure this but this not actually raw. we may have to guess.

And once again miniature = model = unit, automatic hit. Then we place the blast marker over. Notice that it hits a unit first and then the blast marker adding additional targets but that is irrelevant as we've already hit the entire unit.

the glauss flux arc projector also doesn't say that it's a shooting attack it simply fires d6 shots at enemy units with a model (which is a still the same thing according to raw) within 12"

These are all wierd rules which techincally breaks the rules

[Fellend]

Actually since miniature = model = unit can't we simply shoot them directly through the transport? since we measure range to the vehicle? Or is the lack of LOS that prevents it?

In swedish we have a word called regelbögeri which translates roughly to rulegayness or rule******ery. I think it suits the situation.

[Madness]

I think that SMS are able to hit transported units, but that has nothing to do with blast templates.

Supposing that a holy orb of antioch ends up in a full trnasport, the template it places requires models to be seen under the template, and that doesn't involve "measuring a range involving the embarked unit" (checking the blast coverage is not measuring a range) you can't use the transport model for the transported unit.

The Gauss Flux Arc Projector will be able to hit embarked units as long as it does not require Line of Sight to the target (page 66 grants measurability, not visibility) as well as the transport vehicle.

[Fellend]

The holy orb is to wierd to be bothered to talk about (it doesn't mention that it's a shooting attack, just that you roll normally to hit, it doesn't mention that you whether it hits the first target or if it scatters, if it's a blast weapon or not BAH, can't be bothered)

So SMS and what's the thing in the Nid book that doesn't require line of sight can shoot through transports?

The monolith doesn't not require line of sight....

So basically anything that doesn't require line of sight can now shoot through transports?

Obviously according to RAW this is correct. Which is why I think RAW is total bull. Still going with regelbögeri over it all.

I have however noticed that I spend hours here and looking in rulebooks instead of actually studying so I'm going to stop now. Tests are in a week.

[gcsmith]

actually raw says, "units in buildings like those in vehicles can not be shot or assulted"

[Madness]

The holy orb is to wierd to be bothered to talk about (it doesn't mention that it's a shooting attack, just that you roll normally to hit, it doesn't mention that you whether it hits the first target or if it scatters, if it's a blast weapon or not BAH, can't be bothered)

So SMS and what's the thing in the Nid book that doesn't require line of sight can shoot through transports?

The monolith doesn't not require line of sight....

So basically anything that doesn't require line of sight can now shoot through transports?

Obviously according to RAW this is correct. Which is why I think RAW is total bull. Still going with regelbögeri over it all.

I have however noticed that I spend hours here and looking in rulebooks instead of actually studying so I'm going to stop now. Tests are in a week.Holy Orb still places a blast, so no deal. The Monolith Flux, Impaler Cannon and SMS can all hit units in the vehicle, there's some debate due to the fact that we have no way to establish a correct amount of "touching" cover that still applies to those situations. I.E.: we can't define how much cover do they get, so there's a whole phase in the shooting procedure (determining cover) that can't be satisfied.

I 500% agree that RAW is BS.


actually raw says, "units in buildings like those in vehicles can not be shot or assulted"
Hey, no paraphrasing. :P
Quote it correctly.

[Fellend]

Actually no. The holy orb hits first. And then you place a blast marker which presumably (but doesn't say specifically) lets you add more models to damage.The hit (we actually doesn't know what it hits since it doesn't mention anything) comes first and the blast marker is added later.

So i think you can use that one as well.

[Madness]

My bad. Anyway, it's still a weapon, you need LoS.

[HsojVvad]

Actually since miniature = model = unit can't we simply shoot them directly through the transport? since we measure range to the vehicle? Or is the lack of LOS that prevents it?


Exactly. Since there is no rule that prevents a unit in a vehicle taking damage, the only reason you can't shoot at a unit embarked in a vehicle is because there is no LoS.

X= Transport
Y= Unit
A=Firing Unit

(AAA) AAA (AAA)

XXXXXXXXXX
X X
XXXXXXXXXX



YYY

In this example, Unit A can't shoot at unit Y because there is no LoS because the vehicle is blockiing Los of unit Y. So there fore it can't fire. But lets say if unit A moved 6" to the left or to the Right, in brackets, it would be able to Fire at unit Y because they have a LoS then.


AAA


XXXXXXXXXX
AAA X YYY X AAA
XXXXXXXXXX


AAA

In this example no matter where unit A is, it can't draw LoS to unit Y because the plastic walls ove the vehicle miniture block LoS 360 degrees, so therefore it can't fire. See there is no rules about vehicles protecting unit Y at all. What we have to us, is e the rules for LoS. That is basically all what vehicles do, and give unit Y up to a movement of 12" or more per turn. It dosn't protect them from damage shooting or CC. It dosn't protect them from "gets hots" wounds.

As for the SMS it is a shooting attack. If we read the rules on page 66, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embared unit (except for shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull".

So since SMS can target any unit it wishes, it can pick the unit in embarked in a vehicle. So since SMS has a range we measure to the hull of the vehicle as on Page 66. BUT alson on page 66 it says you don't measure to the hull of the vehicle for shooting. SMS is a shooting attack so it can't shoot units embarked in a vehicle.

[HsojVvad]

As for blast weapons again the rules say models under the blast template. Again for this logic to work, Models DOES NOT (capitlized for emphisis) equal Units.

Since the are no models on the table, but the unit is embarked in the vehicle, there are no models under the blast template so there for they are not effected by template weapons.

For another example why I say Models DOES NOT EQUAL Unit is read on page 29 under template. The last sentence. If models=units then does this make any sense? Wounds inflicted by template weapons do not have to be allocated on UNITS actually covered by the template, but can be put onto any UNIT in the MODEL.

See what I did here? I just switched Model and Unit around. If Model=Units then this should make sence but since it dosn't make any sense Models DOES NOT EQUAL units. (again capilized for emphisis.)

So if we get this Models=Units, lots of things become clearer in the rules. Other wise how does the Template weapon rules work then?

[Madness]

You skipped a word "If the players need to measure a range involving the embared unit (except for ITS shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull" the SMS is not the embarked unit's shooting, hence page 66 applies.

[HsojVvad]

You skipped a word "If the players need to measure a range involving the embared unit (except for ITS shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull" the SMS is not the embarked unit's shooting, hence page 66 applies.

I am sorry Madness, I am still not feeling good and don't understand what you mean here. What do you mean page 66 applies? I am trying to say the SMS can't shoot at an embarked unit. Are you saying they can?

The SMS is not shooting while embarked in a vehicle, it's shooting a unit that is embarked in a vehicle. So since it is "shooting" it can't measure to the hull of the vehiclie for the embarked unit.

What am I missing? I tried to sleep it off, but can't sleep anymore. Can you please explain what you mean.

[Renegade]

Spirit Leech is a psychic power for another HQ (Special?), I cant remember what one, I was up against it today.

I haven't read the whole thread (to much of it) Model = Unit as page 3 still seems to be the unmovable object.

Template weapons work as written, they state that an individuals in a unit can be effected by it. However notice that it still requires that there is a model in that unit needed to effect the unit. Unit = Model/Model = Unit.

[gcsmith]

SmS cannot shoot in vehicles. It needs a Target, and you can only target models :P

[HsojVvad]

Spirit Leech is a psychic power for another HQ (Special?), I cant remember what one, I was up against it today.

I haven't read the whole thread (to much of it) Model = Unit as page 3 still seems to be the unmovable object.

Template weapons work as written, they state that an individuals in a unit can be effected by it. However notice that it still requires that there is a model in that unit needed to effect the unit. Unit = Model/Model = Unit.

SL is not a psychic power. I am not shure what you mean here. Do you mean another HQ unit has a power similiar to this?

I mean, if model=units, then subsitituting the words model to unit and unit to model, dosn't make any sense. Since it dosn't make any sense how can template weapons work? How can you "...put onto any UNIT in the MODEL."? See it dosn't make any sense. It says "...put onto any MODEL in the UNIT." This makes sense. Therefore model does not equal unit because you can't use the words interchangeably.

Remember just because the models are not on the table, the unit is still on the table. Where does it say that the unit is removed from play?

That is why I say model does not equal unit. Once you say model does not equal units, alot of things become more clearer.

[Renegade]

I mean, if model=units, then subsitituting the words model to unit and unit to model, dosn't make any sense. Since it dosn't make any sense how can template weapons work? How can you "...put onto any UNIT in the MODEL."? See it dosn't make any sense. It says "...put onto any MODEL in the UNIT." This makes sense. Therefore model does not equal unit because you can't use the words interchangeably.


Back to page 3 UNITS. Units fight in loose groups with gaps between each model. A unit will usually consist of several models tht fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model...

I would suggest reading the rest of it yourself, however, a unit is always what the model = unit that is measured to or from. I your example, the unit type would be that of a group of models that were gathered together in that were part of the same unit. Those models = unit as per the rules for the make up of that unit.

SL is not a psychic power. I am not shure what you mean here. Do you mean another HQ unit has a power similiar to this?
Did almost exactly the same thing, fairly sure he called it the same thing, but only regenerated unit back to its starting HP. I am going to find the name of it on thursday when I am back in the store to be sure.

[HsojVvad]

But model does not equal unit after page 3 though. Is some cases you can't use the word unit, since it will not make sense, unless you use the word model. If model does equal unit, then you should be able to use the word unit all the time and never the word model ever again, but GW keeps using the word model and unit even in the same sentence. So therefor unit does not equal model. Once we can understand this, alot of the rules would make sense.

Ok lets try this. Let's say there is a GPS in the game of the SQUAD. I move my squad and emabark it in a vehicle. The models are off the table, but the squad is still in the vehcile. Now I move the vehicle away from my table quarter onto my enemies table quarter.

Now if I look at the GPS, where will it tell me where my SQUAD is? The GPS will say it's in my opponents table quarter, even though there are no models there. Am I correct here? Since my GPS says the SQUAD is in my opponents quarter, but he can't shoot at it since there is no models on the table. Since there is no models on the table there is no LoS to the models. Since there is no LoS they can't fire at the SQUAD. Since the GPS says my SQUAD is still there, and if I have fire points, I can fire out of those fire points or if I wanted to, I can disenbark from the vehicle. My GPS dosn't say that my SQUAD is sitting in a case or on another table therefore it dosn't get shot at, or take any harm.

*edit* added 2 more sentences.

[Bergermeister84]

Spirit Leech is a psychic power for another HQ (Special?), I cant remember what one, I was up against it today.



The Hive Tyrant has two psychic powers similar to Spirit Leach. The first is Leech Essence which deals D3, S3, AP2 hits, and allows the Tyrant to regenerate a wound for every casualty. The second is Psychic Scream which forces enemy units within 2D6" to make a Leadership test and lose a model for each point they failed by. Both are slightly different and will NEVER work against models in transports.

In regards to what people saying about models being the same as units, I am really not understanding your points. If the word "model" was intended to be identical to the word "unit" there wouldn't be two different subsections on page three explaining what each is. It says that models get grouped together to form units, not that models and units mean the exact same thing. As others have pointed out, the simple test is to replace each instance of the word "model" with "unit" or vice-versa. When you do this, it doesn't work right.

[Madness]

The SMS CAN hit embarked models.

The shooting section states that you pick a unit and declare it is shooting another unit.

A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target
Then you would check Line of Sight, but SMS skips that step.
Then you check the range and you can use the vehicle's hull.

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.
It is a shooting action but it's not the embarked unit's shooting so the "except for its shooting" exception applies not.
If it is in range it can be hit.

[Renegade]

It is a shooting action but it's not the embarked unit's shooting so the "except for its shooting" exception applies not.
If it is in range it can be hit. However, it can be argued that any attack that takes place in the shooting phase is a shooting attack. If SL is not a shooting attack, why have it in that phase? they could have had it do its things at the start of the players turn or in the assault phase.


But model does not equal unit after page 3 though. Page 3 states what a unit consists of, that is not changed anywhere else in the rule book. If you can find a rule that states that it changes the rules on page 3, please state it. Page 66 does not state that it over rides the rules for page 3, it gives additional rules for working out where the unit being carried is, but not the unit for the purposes for understanding what a unit is under the rules stated on page 3.


The Hive Tyrant has two psychic powers similar to Spirit Leach. I will still look them up for my own peace of mind, but it would appear like he said the wrong thing.

[Madness]

However, it can be argued that any attack that takes place in the shooting phase is a shooting attack. If SL is not a shooting attack, why have it in that phase? they could have had it do its things at the start of the players turn or in the assault phase.
That's neither true nor relevant.

[HsojVvad]

It is a shooting action but it's not the embarked unit's shooting so the "except for its shooting" exception applies not.
If it is in range it can be hit.

I don't understand this? That would mean any unit that does not need LoS can hit an enbarked unit. Why does this apply to someone who is embarked, and not to somene who is not embarked? Why are units that are not embarked the exception in this case?


However, it can be argued that any attack that takes place in the shooting phase is a shooting attack. If SL is not a shooting attack, why have it in that phase? they could have had it do its things at the start of the players turn or in the assault phase.

What about Running? It is done in the shooting phase. Is that a shooting attack? The point I am trying to say is just because it's done in the shooting phase dosn't mean it's a shooting attack. Also, how can someone shoot someone else in the opponents shooting phase? This is another reason why I say it's not a shooting attack. Can any other shooting weapon fire in your opponents shooting phase?

The reason models=units by a raw stand point is because of this I believe that Fellend was trying to say. "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a grooup, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model. such as a battle tank, a monstroous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'". So several models, a single ver large or powerful model or a lone hero, will now follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'. That is why Fellend is corredt I believe in a RAW stand point that models=units.

But because of this, anytime the word model is used, you should be able to substitute it with the word unit, since it's the same. In some cases the sentence makes sense in others it dosn't. I found one part where it dosn't make sense when you subsitute the word, and also using the 2 words in the same sentence should mean that models does not equal units. But since we are going by RAW, the example I said is going by RAI wich we said for the discussion we really can't do.

But I also asked for the time being, just to remove the RAW part of the argument just for a few moments and then alot of the wording for LoS, Blast Templates, Flammer Templates, rules make sense more now.

[Madness]

I don't understand this? That would mean any unit that does not need LoS can hit an enbarked unit. Why does this apply to someone who is embarked, and not to somene who is not embarked? Why are units that are not embarked the exception in this case? A unit does not need LoS.
A shooting attack needs line of sight between the shooter unit and the target unit (usually).
The vehicle hull can be used as measurement point according to

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.Only if you're not measuring shots from INSIDE the vehicle, in which case you have to use the fire points or the vehicle hull if it is open topped (different rules, same outcome for open topped vehicles).
Why?
Because the rule says so.

[Renegade]

What about Running? It is done in the shooting phase. Is that a shooting attack? The point I am trying to say is just because it's done in the shooting phase dosn't mean it's a shooting attack. Also, how can someone shoot someone else in the opponents shooting phase? This is another reason why I say it's not a shooting attack. Can any other shooting weapon fire in your opponents shooting phase?There have always been a few exceptions to the rules, RZ for the BT used to allow them to assault during the opposising players turn if certain criteria were met. This still does not change that this is an attack during a shooting phase, where as things like Shadow in the Warp is active all the time. Saying the two act in the same way when one is always active and the other in a certain phase, to me, means that the phase in which the power takes place is of some relevance. Its is an AoE weapon, as is a blast weapon, both take place in the shooting phase. The only difference between the two at this point is one can effect vehicles while the other cant. One has a template while the other measures a distance from a central point is effectively doing the same thing, measuring an effected area from a central position. Arguing that it is the same as Shadow in the Warp which is in effect throughout every phase, is to not take into account that SL is different due to only being active in a single phase of the game where the others are always active.


That is why Fellend is corredt I believe in a RAW stand point that models=units. It has been from the RAW stand point that I have argued that it cant effect units in transport the whole way through, as going by RAI SL is arguably a psychic power, it would definitely not be able to effect units in transport. The measurement is to and from the vehicles hull, the unit, by RAW definition, is a vehicleand nowhere in the rules changes this.

[HsojVvad]

A unit does not need LoS.
A shooting attack needs line of sight between the shooter unit and the target unit (usually).
The vehicle hull can be used as measurement point according to Only if you're not measuring shots from INSIDE the vehicle, in which case you have to use the fire points or the vehicle hull if it is open topped (different rules, same outcome for open topped vehicles).
Why?
Because the rule says so.

I am still not feeling good today. I still do not understand what you mean. Are you saying a SM with a bolter can fire at a unit embarked in a vehicle and shoot it, and wound it?

[Madness]

A Marine could try and shoot at an embarked unit, but he would fail step 1, since ha has no line of sight to the embarked unit.

Only the action taken by following the rules at page 15 (and further) is considered shooting, everything else is not shooting.

I agree that placing a blast and measuring a radius from a point are very similar things, and it's weird that one affects embarked units while the other doesn't, but it's how it works.

Spirit Leech is very similar to a psychic power both in nature and in effect, but it is not, but I can see how it would "feel" like such.

[Renegade]

I agree that placing a blast and measuring a radius from a point are very similar things, and it's weird that one affects embarked units while the other doesn't, but it's how it works. I suppose you could say that template weapons effect embarked units, but that is only in the case that the vehicle is destroyed so is an indirect effect. Glad to see you finally agreeing that Spirit Leech can not effect embarked units.

[Madness]

I'm saying that Spirit Leech affects embarked units while templates don't. Yes templates can destroy the vehicle and thus impact the embarked units in a chain of consequences, but nothing direct.

[Renegade]

I'm saying that Spirit Leech affects embarked units while templates don't. Yes templates can destroy the vehicle and thus impact the embarked units in a chain of consequences, but nothing direct.

Spirit Leech is debatable whether it can or cannot, the rules are not solidly behind it working on embarked units. The whole of page 3 is against it working, while a small paragraph on page 66 may or may not be in favour. Given that the page that states what units are is unfavourable towards Spirit Leech effecting embarked units, that pretty much writes off it doing so.
Also taking into account that the ability is an offensive action during the shooting phase, that takes it even further away from doing so.

[Madness]

Page 3 is a general rule, page 66 is a specific rule, and specificity determinates priority, always (to do x you should do y, in the case z, you should do k instead)

An offensive (term you made up) ability during a shooting phase is still an ability and not a shooting attack, but that's not relevant for Spirit Leech either.

Spirit Leech does, RAW-wise, work on embarked units.

[Renegade]

Page 3 is a general rule, page 66 is a specific rule, and specificity determinates priority, always (to do x you should do y, in the case z, you should do k instead) The section on units is very specific in what is and what is not a unit. Page 66 does not change that the unit is a vehicle, only that the location of an embarked unit is in the same location.


An offensive (term you made up) ability during a shooting phase is still an ability and not a shooting attack, but that's not relevant for Spirit Leech either. Offensive is the opposite of Defensive, and the attack is still happening in the shooting phase via an AoE attack, just like any other except that Spirit Leech cannot effect vehicles.


Spirit Leech does, RAW-wise, work on embarked units. Through what rules? RAW states that there needs to be a model present, the only one present is a vehicle. Page 66 states that you are still measuring to a vehicle, where does it say anything that overrides page 3? It does not. RAW states that it cannot harm transported units, otherwise it would say to proxy that unit in some way. The location of the unit is a vehicle, that in an inescapable fact, the unit is a vehicle for the purpose of the rules with effect to what can be measured to, fact. Where does it state that the model is now the transported unit? It does not. So the unit never changes what it is.
You know that the unit is in the location of the vehicle and that the vehicle is the unit that is in range on the board. That is all page 66 states, not that the vehicle is the unit that is embarked.

[HsojVvad]

Spirit Leech is debatable whether it can or cannot, the rules are not solidly behind it working on embarked units.

Since you said you haven't read all the posts, I just want to make shure you know that in this post we talk about one thing at a time. I guess since I have been not feeling well, I wasn't reading things properly here.

What I am trying to do, is talk about one thing at a time, and then when there is an agreement to move on, (either by we finally agree about a rule, disagree about a rule or agree to disagree and move onto something else.

So far we have said SL is not a psychic attack. Second discussion is does SL affect models. It has been said that they don't effect models but do effect units. Then it was said, since we are going by RAW that models=units. Right now I havn't seen anyone not disprove this by RAW. I have tired to disprove it by giving examples earlier, but that could be interputed by RAI, so dosn't really count. I still strongly believe that models does not equal units.

So unless we have something new to discuss about SL effecting models or models=units debate, I think we should move on to another topic.

So Since Renegade says is debatable, what part is debatable Renegade? Just pic on part of it, and we will continue discussing it.

So if everyone who is participating agrees, lets stop for now with the Spirite Leech effects models or units, and discuss something else.

What shall we discuss now?

[HsojVvad]

Through what rules? RAW states that there needs to be a model present, the only one present is a vehicle. Page 66 states that you are still measuring to a vehicle, where does it say anything that overrides page 3? It does not. RAW states that it cannot harm transported units, otherwise it would say to proxy that unit in some way. The location of the unit is a vehicle, that in an inescapable fact, the unit is a vehicle for the purpose of the rules with effect to what can be measured to, fact. Where does it state that the model is now the transported unit? It does not. So the unit never changes what it is.
You know that the unit is in the location of the vehicle and that the vehicle is the unit that is in range on the board. That is all page 66 states, not that the vehicle is the unit that is embarked.

Ok I missed another post. So since we say that by RAW, models not on the table = units no on the table, where do the units go? If you try to tell me that the unit is not on the table where is it? If it is not on the table then it can't fire through fireports even though the rule is there for them to fire. If you are not there, you can't use it. If you are not there, you can't get off and disenbark the vehicle. So where does it go?

[gannam]

Page 3 is a general rule, page 66 is a specific rule, and specificity determinates priority, always (to do x you should do y, in the case z, you should do k instead)

An offensive (term you made up) ability during a shooting phase is still an ability and not a shooting attack, but that's not relevant for Spirit Leech either.

Spirit Leech does, RAW-wise, work on embarked units.

Its not an "offensive" ability. That word is not in the rule book btw. Its a persistent ability that is triggered at the beginning of the shooting phase, Much like Rage or Relentless is triggered during the shooting phase.

[Renegade]

So since we say that by RAW, models not on the table = units no on the table, where do the units go? If you try to tell me that the unit is not on the table where is it? If it is not on the table then it can't fire through fireports even though the rule is there for them to fire. If you are not there, you can't use it. If you are not there, you can't get off and disenbark the vehicle. So where does it go? As you say this is where you last were, I will go from here.
We know the location of the unit via the rules on page 66, that it is the thelocation of a vehicle model. We know from page 3 that a unit compirises of 1 or more models. Your confusion seems to come from the fact that in some cases you are asked to single out 1 or more model that makes up the unit, like a slice of cake, just because it is cut into smaller bits does not change what it is. 1 or more model = unit.
When a unit is embarked, we know its location is that of a vehicle model, but the unit its self has no model representing it on the board. Page 3 and page 66 refer to the model as a vehicle, so the unit is a vehicle. Having a unit embarked means that the firing ports are now manned, so they can be shot from, measured from the vehicle. Any more questions?


Its not an "offensive" ability. That word is not in the rule book btw. Its a persistent ability that is triggered at the beginning of the shooting phase, Much like Rage or Relentless is triggered during the shooting phase. I used the term "offensive" as just like shooting is a persistant ability, it is offensive in that it is a type of attack.

[HsojVvad]

When a unit is embarked, we know its location is that of a vehicle model, but the unit its self has no model representing it on the board.

Ah my friend, but you are wrong here. You choose not to have a modle representing the model=unit on board. Please lets look at page 66 of the BRB under Embarking. I quote "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing one of the unit's models on top of the transport works well!).

So what have we here? We need to make a note or otherwise that there is a model=unit that is embarked. GW says to even place a model from that unit ontop of the vehicle as a good indicator that the model=unit is inside. Now from your wording you are not representing the model, so therefore you are breaking the rules. Why do you not have a model representing it on board?


( Here we go again that model does not equal units because GW is is using model and units in the same sentence and the words can't be interchangeable, so there model dosn't not equalle units. Please explain this one. If models=units, GW shouldn't be using the words models now, should they? See what I mean, no models on the board but the unit is still on the board.

Does this make sense? "When themodel embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the model is being transported (we find that placing one of the model's units on top of the transport works well!).)

[Renegade]

Can some one PLEASE sort out that 30 second time out.

[Renegade]

( Here we go again that model does not equal units because GW is is using model and units in the same sentence and the words can't be interchangeable, so there model dosn't not equalle units. Please explain this one. If models=units, GW shouldn't be using the words models now, should they? See what I mean, no models on the board but the unit is still on the board.

Does this make sense? "When themodel embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the model is being transported (we find that placing one of the model's units on top of the transport works well!).) It still makes sense put that way, but does not scan as easily. I haven't disputed that the unit is in transport, nor that its location is not the same as the transports, just that the only model (I would either keep a note or use a marker to note what is in where) is the transport.
You will also note that the unit is taken from the table, and it does not state that the unit is to be by a model represented anywhere, just a note or other indicator of what transport the unit entered.
You are still faced by the fact that the model/unit on the board is a vehicle.

[HsojVvad]

I sort of see what you are talking about Renegade, but it almost sounds to me, that you are saying they become one unit. They are not one unit, there are still 2 different units co-exsisting together to share the same space, since on unit can not go through another unit.

Because of this co-exsitence, the unit embarked can move up to 12" or more a turn, and LoS is removed from that unit. But the unit is still subject to other rules. No where else are they immune to harm or what not. But that is for another debate later.

So are you saying when a unit embarks a vehicle they become one unit because there are no models on the table for the unit that embarks the vehicle? I don't think this is the case but just making shure.

As to you say, I am still faced that the model/unit on the board is a vehicle. What do I have to face? I don't understand? Yes the model on the board is the vehicle. This model just represents the vehicle. There are no minitures to see, so I have no LoS. But because there is no minitures to see the unit inside can still be effected from what ever. The only reason you can't shoot at units inside a vehicle is because of other rules in the BRB that prevent it from doing so. No were in the BRB says units inside a vehicle are immune from anything. If I have something that can effect the unit inside the vehicle wich is not a shooting attack, then I use the base of the vehicle for the squad inside it. Be it a psychic hood, or to see if an objective is in range of the units inside as 2 examples.

[Renegade]

I sort of see what you are talking about Renegade, but it almost sounds to me, that you are saying they become one unit. They are not one unit, there are still 2 different units co-exsisting together to share the same space, since on unit can not go through another unit.

Because of this co-exsitence, the unit embarked can move up to 12" or more a turn, and LoS is removed from that unit. But the unit is still subject to other rules. No where else are they immune to harm or what not. But that is for another debate later.

So are you saying when a unit embarks a vehicle they become one unit because there are no models on the table for the unit that embarks the vehicle? I don't think this is the case but just making shure. Not exactly. what I am saying is that the vehicle represents both units, as it is the only model on the board, and some of what effects the vehicle effects those embarked, I think its fair to say that what can't effect vehicles because it states it cannot, cannot effect the embarked unit. Crew shaken or Stunned for example does effect the embarked units, and other effects have an indirect effect on those in the transport, but it happens to the transport, not the transported unit, in the first instance.


As to you say, I am still faced that the model/unit on the board is a vehicle. What do I have to face? I don't understand? Yes the model on the board is the vehicle. This model just represents the vehicle. There are no minitures to see, so I have no LoS. But because there is no minitures to see the unit inside can still be effected from what ever. The only reason you can't shoot at units inside a vehicle is because of other rules in the BRB that prevent it from doing so. No were in the BRB says units inside a vehicle are immune from anything. If I have something that can effect the unit inside the vehicle wich is not a shooting attack, then I use the base of the vehicle for the squad inside it. Be it a psychic hood, or to see if an objective is in range of the units inside as 2 examples.
Neither the hood or objectives have rules regarding vehicles, these are also in effect regardless of what phase the game is in, and so are not a straight comparison. And the unit being measured to is the side of a vehicle. If the rule did not state anything about vehicles, or did about embarked units, then I would not be debating this, but it only states that it has no effect against vehicles. The only model is a vehicle, and the doom does not effect it with spirit leech, and therefore is unable to effect those that are transported as they use the same unit/model for location purposes.

[HsojVvad]

This is where I don't understand. Ok, now I think we are changing topics now. Maybe I am changing the topic, maybe I am not still not feeling to well. Why are units that are embarked in vehicles immune? The unit is still there. The unit dosn't stop being an infantry choice. Where in the BRB says that infantry embarked in a vehicle stops being infantry and becomes a vehicle? Now what you are saying is being embarked in a vehicle changes the Unit Type. You don't change your Unit Type just because you are embarked in a vehicle.

Since SL says it effects non vehicles, that means it effects, Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstours Creatures, Beasts and Calvary, Bikes, Artillery, anything that is not a vehicle. Just because the unit is in a vehicle, it is still an Infantry Unit Type and there is effected by SL. The transport being a vehicle is immune to SL but not the Infantry Unit inside it because it is a non infantry Unit Type.

I believe you even said yourself that the unit is still in the vehicle ( I could be wrong, and don't want to put words into your mouth) even though there are no models on the table. If you have indicated that there is a unit insided the transport, by remembering that it's there, or writing on a piece of paper or as GW says place a model from the unit on top of the vehicle. Since the unit is inside the vehicle, and the vehicle is within 6" of the DoM, that means the unit inside the vehicle wich is a non vehicle Unit Type is inside the 6" of the DoM and therefore has to take the test.

[Renegade]

This is where I don't understand. Ok, now I think we are changing topics now. Maybe I am changing the topic, maybe I am not still not feeling to well. Why are units that are embarked in vehicles immune? The unit is still there. The unit dosn't stop being an infantry choice. Where in the BRB says that infantry embarked in a vehicle stops being infantry and becomes a vehicle? Now what you are saying is being embarked in a vehicle changes the Unit Type. You don't change your Unit Type just because you are embarked in a vehicle.

Since SL says it effects non vehicles, that means it effects, Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstours Creatures, Beasts and Calvary, Bikes, Artillery, anything that is not a vehicle. Just because the unit is in a vehicle, it is still an Infantry Unit Type and there is effected by SL. The transport being a vehicle is immune to SL but not the Infantry Unit inside it because it is a non infantry Unit Type.

I believe you even said yourself that the unit is still in the vehicle ( I could be wrong, and don't want to put words into your mouth) even though there are no models on the table. If you have indicated that there is a unit insided the transport, by remembering that it's there, or writing on a piece of paper or as GW says place a model from the unit on top of the vehicle. Since the unit is inside the vehicle, and the vehicle is within 6" of the DoM, that means the unit inside the vehicle wich is a non vehicle Unit Type is inside the 6" of the DoM and therefore has to take the test.

Thats not quite right, as there is no model that is of type 'non-vehicle' with in range, due to having removed the models during embarkation. Model = unit in range as stated on page 3
To have Spirit Leech work as you are saying, you would have to say that the vehicle is a proxy for the unit, thus making them the same thing again. I am saying that while the unit has a location, it has no models to represent the unit at that time, so is only effected by things that the vehicles cant ignore, thus remaining two units.

[gannam]

I vote we close this thread and all others like it. We have debated this adinfinum at this point guys.

I think both sides have made compelling arguments.

As responsible members of the 40K community, I think we should agree to table the issue until a FAQ is released.

If you absolutely must have a a document in hand to settle disputes, the INAT FAQ has come up with a solid compromise allowing the use of spirit leech on an embarked unit, but providing it a 4+ cover save.

If that fails to settle your dispute, then I suggest rolling a dice.

If that fails, then pack your **** up and go home.

[HsojVvad]

This is the Internet gannam. We are debating because we like to. Well some of us do. Also we are not debating during a game, so we are not taking any game time away. We can talk till we are blue in the face, or when the cow comes home, no harm is done. Yes we might not ever prove anything, but then again, what are the forums for?

If we can't discuss anything, then basically everthing anyone posts on the internet is irrelivent then.

@ Renegade, I have a question for you. Why don't you put a model ontop of a vehicle to represent what is inside, like GW suggests? I am not trying to be mean here, but I feel that you don't do this, so you can use the excuse, that there is no models on the table therefore there is no unit on the table and nothing can effect it then. Why would GW say put a model ontop of the vehicle to show that the unit is still on the table then?

[Fellend]

This is the Internet gannam. We are debating because we like to. Well some of us do. Also we are not debating during a game, so we are not taking any game time away. We can talk till we are blue in the face, or when the cow comes home, no harm is done. Yes we might not ever prove anything, but then again, what are the forums for?

If we can't discuss anything, then basically everthing anyone posts on the internet is irrelivent then.

@ Renegade, I have a question for you. Why don't you put a model ontop of a vehicle to represent what is inside, like GW suggests? I am not trying to be mean here, but I feel that you don't do this, so you can use the excuse, that there is no models on the table therefore there is no unit on the table and nothing can effect it then. Why would GW say put a model ontop of the vehicle to show that the unit is still on the table then?

You are missing that they actually say make a note of if, They've found that putting a model on top is a good idea. I never use that simply because i don't want models on top of my zooming rides, also i have dedicated rides which are can be clearly identified. But more importantly putting a model on top is not a rule it's just a way to note things. You might as well put a paper note.

[HsojVvad]

But that is another way of saying the unit is inside. Since the unit is inside, the models are inside the vehicle. So without really doing it physically, the models are inside the vehicle.