Too much of a badly considered thing?

[Bedroom General]

Hi! After a long hiatus, I return to whinge upon this esteemed forum.

This will be a rant basically, but if you find it too long, basically I can't keep up, and I'm frustrated.

You see, it used to be that my friends and I could help each other out with rules, and other specifics of the game because we were all interested enough to read most codices and be across the majority of each others capabilities. I have become invested in this hobby over a lot of years and thoroughly enjoy the painting, hobby aspect. Of course thats not enough, or I'd just buy random models that I like. These would then become dust collectors on a shelf. I want more "bang for my buck" than that, so I chose to collect for a game I could play with my circle of friends.Thus my obsession began, because rules that allowed me to play in the wonderful grimdark background.

I've been playing since second edition. I remember that my friend and I played a big game once (1500pts or so) and we both ended up with headaches from the constant rules and calculations we had to do each turn. Second ed game mechanics were quite in depth. Well, I just had a battle two per side so 3000pts per team and ended up with the same sort of headache. This time it was not the depth of the rules, but rather the breadth. We all spent way too much time consulting books and various computers and pads and phones, Then finding relevant rules in the brb (which appears to have been written by a commitee that wasn't really talking to each other, or play testing much) that answered questions badly or not at all.

Too much! I don't mind not being across someone elses rules but when you have people misremembering 'cos of the rate of codex change as well as all of the different codices and data slates and formations and etc etc... Well hopefully you can see my point. We are not professional gamers, all of us have real life concerns and the budget in terms of dollars and time is too tight to be able to know exactly what is going on in this game we have invested in.

It didn't help that our 'nid player was just coming back into the game, she was put off by how complicated everything seemed to be. Looking through her eyes I am forced to agree. I like to play both competitively and "beer and pretzels" but I think the game is getting too unwieldy when you arent having fun, you're just trying to find relevant bits of rules from a myriad of sources. Games Workshop continue to amaze with models and confound with the effin' rules to play them, which as I said way back, was the reason I chose to collect their models in the first place. I shouldn't need a library and/or phd to play a game of toy soldiers.

I felt a distinct lack of fun yesterday during the game. If anything can possibly drive me away from a hobby of over twenty years, it'll be when it stops being fun. I sincerely hope I don't get there, but I saw the possibility when our poor beleaguered 'Nid player, listening to three veterans still not knowing exactly what was going on, said with a plaintive wail "It's all too complicated!"
Rant over.
Cheers guys.

[Mr Mystery]

Mis-remembering rules is kind of unavoidable, particularly in the early stages of a new edition.

For perspective, I still to this day, on occasion, forget that Magic no longer comes at the end of your turn in Warhammer. And it's not been that way since around 2000 or so, give or take a year.

Today, I have my first game of 7th edition with a combined Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus army, so that's technically three gaming cherries at once. My opponent (provided he still turns up!) normally fields Orks. And I'm expecting a great many 'hold on, I'll look that up' moments, most from me. But hey. It's been a long old time (last game was against Interrogator Chaplain at Warhammer World) so it's not unexpected.

All I need to do is remember I don't know all the rules inside out and upside down like I used to.

[Lord Manton]

Here, here!

There's not a lot to disagree with from your post. It's gotten pretty ridiculous now. There are so many bits and bobs lying around. Space Wolves have their rules spread over two codices, plus the storm claw pamphlet, plus the 'Hour of the Wolf' campaign supplement, not to mention the FW characters and rules. Space Marines have been out for a day and they've already got Salamanders, Black Templars and Crimson Fists spread across two White Dwarfs, as well as Imperial Fists and Iron Hands' own supplements. Right there, you've got 8 different sources for TWO factions, not taking FW into account at all, and those two factions are arguably the SAME faction.

I had a game with a mate the other day, it was his first game of 7th. After I'd explained the many rules changes, major and nuanced, we then set about getting ready for the battle. We got to the part about choosing Warlord traits, rolling a random trait off one of four tables (not including the codex tables) and simply said 'F**k it. Let's just play the damn game!' Even thinking back on it, I realise we forgot a lot of rules about AP for melee weapons (in the BRB), and other super specific special rules. It really has become quite difficult to get one's head around. I'm not a tournament player, and if I were, I'd be there for new challenges and a bit of fun. But for those who have devoted a sizeable chunk of their lives to playing 40k in a competitive setting I have nothing but sympathy. It would be impossible to have any idea of what is going on in the rules these days.

All I would say, is stick with it and keep playing. The more you play and correct your mistakes, the more you'll remember for the next game. Also, as it sounds like you mostly play with friends, I think you could probably trust them enough that they're not screwing you over with the rules, so as long as you all concentrate on knowing the rules for your own lists and armies, that should take a bit of the stress off... maybe?

[Bedroom General]

Yeah Lord Manton, I had my hands full with my own list, which was CSM,Imperial(chaos) Knight and fortifications by way of two vengeance batteries with battle cannons. A very fun list, but having to help interpret various other factions' codex and rule book conundrums took its toll, and stalled the games momentum. Especially since our novice nid player asked completely reasonable questions like do I have any way of getting an invulnerable save for my winged Tyrant? Which of course I couldn't find even though it seems only reasonable for such a Monstrous creature. Took a while to realise I was wasting my time looking. Also wasted a lot of time trying to work out how many hull points a vengeance battery had (settled on 3 for sanity's sake) it just says impassable building, no size! Sigh. This sort of silly niggling about the rules went on all day, and it was because we were trying to play RIGHT and not take advantage. There were times when we said, as you and your friend did: "F*** it lets play" But that isn't the reason that I bought the rule book and codex now is it?
PS if anyone can help with hps for a vengeance battery, and if a flying tyrant can get an inv save I'd appreciate it.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think it's just not a lot of fun, lacking a central place to find everything, and with so many changes it leaves your head spinning.

The freedom and creativity of it all is lovely... But only from a modelling point of view. In terms of remembering all the rules, well, for a start you have to remember where they are. With so much 'DLC' floating around now, can anyone really know everything any more? Or even enough to play a quick, efficient game?

It's all become rather sprawling. They really should consider some kind of 'Apocalypse' book, with all the formations inside. Maybe once a year, 'chapter approved' style?

[Lord Manton]

@YorkNecromancer, an annual compendium of formations and rules would be great. Hell, even just an index telling you which book contains what would be a huge help. But that's the point isn't it? Your system is broken when you even have to consider something like that. It's funny. We used to say "bring back White Dwarf rules!" And we all meant it, but we should be careful what we wish for.

I feel your pain, Bedroom General. I'm the "40k guy" in my group. The one who's kept up with the rules and what not, and it's an absolute pain trying to explain it to the group. When you're immersed in it, keeping up with the forums and blogs etc. it's not so bad, but trying to impart that to people who have old edition preconceptions or they just don't know the rules, it becomes an absolute nightmare. I remember when I introduced 40k to the group (mostly fantasy and D&D players) they all marvelled at how a game of 40k could be played in the space of two hours with a simple and clean rules set with killer models. Now I find myself making excuses more often than not as to why we should even bother playing.

That's not to be negative on the game, it's still fun and the spectacle is totally worth it. But it's a grind. I love reading rule books IN MY SPARE TIME. Game time is for gaming and the occasional reference.

[TheyStoleMyName!]

The problem I'm finding anymore is that so many of my games are becoming one-sided one way or another. The rules I'm still alright with, but the massive changes to army building seem to be ending up in a MTG-esque Rock/Paper/Scissors place. 3/4 of my games are effectively over on turn 2, whether I'm winning or losing. I thought that it may be because of my choice of armies (I've played White Scars for years, since before they were good), but switching over to other forces just changes the counters, but not the result.

I still love the game when it's played for fun between friends, but it feels like you have to spend a lot of time in conversation with the other player from the list building phase on to end up somewhere that the game is going to stay interesting and "competitive" (IE: close on the tabletop) rather than seeing one player effectively tabled by turn 2.

[Erik Setzer]

PS if anyone can help with hps for a vengeance battery, and if a flying tyrant can get an inv save I'd appreciate it.

For the Hive Tyrant, looks like that's a no, except for "Jinking." If it's a shooty Flyrant, it's either not going to be as effective, or you're going to have to accept a lack of inv. save.

With the building, there are no hull points. The rulebook has rules for buildings, but it's basically like this: You shoot at the building, see if you hurt it, check a chart. The chart has various things like the weapon being destroyed, armor value being reduced, partial collapse, or full collapse (pretty much the only way to bring a building down). Buildings are tougher to take out than vehicles, usually.

To get the full rules for buildings, you'll need the 40K rulebook for building rules, and Stronghold Assault for the actual fortification dataslates (but ignore all of the outdated building rules in there).

- - - Updated - - -


The problem I'm finding anymore is that so many of my games are becoming one-sided one way or another. The rules I'm still alright with, but the massive changes to army building seem to be ending up in a MTG-esque Rock/Paper/Scissors place. 3/4 of my games are effectively over on turn 2, whether I'm winning or losing.

Yeah, I see that a LOT (and why I won't play MtG seriously). If you didn't guess right, it's over way too quickly and easily. It might take time to play out the match, but you know what the end result will be.

[Path Walker]

If you play a 3000 point game (double what most people in my area play) then, without super heavies and stuff, it's going to get bogged down.

More choices just gives you more choice. How the hell is that a bad thing?

Rules wise, you're talking a rule book and a codex for the nids and some specific formations with all the relevant rules written on the sheets. It's not a breadth of sources, it's maybe three or four.

This sounds like you're complaining because you didn't understand how to play and found that frustrating, that's understandable but not the fault of the game so much as you trying to take on too much at once. playing at 3000 points for a novice is a bit silly. Not reading the rules for the weapons battery before you play is silly too

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Do people not make/use cheat sheets? Get the rules you need, make a Word document or a spreadsheet, put all the rules and options from the multiple sources into it, print it out and use it/show it to folks while playing.

I agree that I'd much rather have all my rules in two books, maximum (rulebook and codex) but it is what it is. Sorry to hear you're having a hard time with it - the above suggestion really helped me when I was getting back into it with 6th ed, and even now I still forget I can throw grenades.

[Alaric]

It's all become rather sprawling. They really should consider some kind of 'Apocalypse' book, with all the formations inside. Maybe once a year, 'chapter approved' style?

People already say virtually everything ol Gdub does is a cash grab so this would be interesting to see happen and watch the reactions. Its a great idea btw.

[Houghten]

With the building, there are no hull points. The rulebook has rules for buildings, but it's basically like this: You shoot at the building, see if you hurt it, check a chart. The chart has various things like the weapon being destroyed, armor value being reduced, partial collapse, or full collapse (pretty much the only way to bring a building down). Buildings are tougher to take out than vehicles, usually.

You'll want to re-read page 110 of The Rules, because as of 7th Edition Buildings do have Hull Points; 3 for a Small Building, 4 for a Medium and 5 for a Large. (Also, they're typically easier to destroy than vehicles of equivalent AV because you only need a 6 on the Building Damage Table for a Total Collapse, whereas you need a 7 on the Vehicle Damage Table for an Explodes.)

Bedroom General's confusion comes from Stronghold Assault only specifying that the Vengeance Battery is an "Impassable Building" with, apparently, no size. Which was fine when Size only determined Transport Capacity, but it's been over a year since 7th dropped and they still haven't FAQ'd it!

When they eventually do, they might rule it as Medium and they might rule it as Small. It's about the same size as a Bunker, which is Medium despite being half the size of a Firestorm Redoubt, which is somehow also Medium. So... *shrug* who knows?

[40kGamer]

You see, it used to be that my friends and I could help each other out with rules, and other specifics of the game because we were all interested enough to read most codices and be across the majority of each others capabilities. I have become invested in this hobby over a lot of years and thoroughly enjoy the painting, hobby aspect. Of course thats not enough, or I'd just buy random models that I like. These would then become dust collectors on a shelf. I want more "bang for my buck" than that, so I chose to collect for a game I could play with my circle of friends.Thus my obsession began, because rules that allowed me to play in the wonderful grimdark background.

I've been playing since second edition. I remember that my friend and I played a big game once (1500pts or so) and we both ended up with headaches from the constant rules and calculations we had to do each turn. Second ed game mechanics were quite in depth. Well, I just had a battle two per side so 3000pts per team and ended up with the same sort of headache. This time it was not the depth of the rules, but rather the breadth. We all spent way too much time consulting books and various computers and pads and phones, Then finding relevant rules in the brb (which appears to have been written by a commitee that wasn't really talking to each other, or play testing much) that answered questions badly or not at all.

This reads almost like my path with 40k, just replace second edition with RT and played a big game once, with played a small game of 1500 points once. :p

Your experience trying to play in the current environment is not uncommon. The rules are not well organized nor are they really all that good. Not that the rules for 40k have ever been perfect.


Too much! I don't mind not being across someone elses rules but when you have people misremembering 'cos of the rate of codex change as well as all of the different codices and data slates and formations and etc etc... Well hopefully you can see my point. We are not professional gamers, all of us have real life concerns and the budget in terms of dollars and time is too tight to be able to know exactly what is going on in this game we have invested in.

I see regular players messing up their own rules at tournaments and in casual play. No one really knows what all the rules are anymore and you need a road map to find everything. They've scattered special rules and formations into every nook and cranny of print and digital medium to the point of stupidity. I would hate to be responsible for policing the rules at a tournament in 7th.


I felt a distinct lack of fun yesterday during the game. If anything can possibly drive me away from a hobby of over twenty years, it'll be when it stops being fun. I sincerely hope I don't get there, but I saw the possibility when our poor beleaguered 'Nid player, listening to three veterans still not knowing exactly what was going on, said with a plaintive wail "It's all too complicated!"

My group has quit playing 40k regularly. 6th/7th raised our concerns and the new speed of codex rewrites (under 2 years is stupid) coupled with rules scattered everywhere has finished everyone off. Your first sentence here sums things up nicely... 40k as it exists today is just not fun for us. Actually one of the games we are going to focus on this year is EPIC 40k. Since Game Workshop wants us to play EPIC we will, but not in 28mm scale with clunky disorganized rules. ;)

[Fanboy]

Hi! After a long hiatus, I return to whinge upon this esteemed forum.

This will be a rant basically, but if you find it too long, basically I can't keep up, and I'm frustrated.

You see, it used to be that my friends and I could help each other out with rules, and other specifics of the game because we were all interested enough to read most codices and be across the majority of each others capabilities. I have become invested in this hobby over a lot of years and thoroughly enjoy the painting, hobby aspect. Of course thats not enough, or I'd just buy random models that I like. These would then become dust collectors on a shelf. I want more "bang for my buck" than that, so I chose to collect for a game I could play with my circle of friends.Thus my obsession began, because rules that allowed me to play in the wonderful grimdark background.

I've been playing since second edition. I remember that my friend and I played a big game once (1500pts or so) and we both ended up with headaches from the constant rules and calculations we had to do each turn. Second ed game mechanics were quite in depth. Well, I just had a battle two per side so 3000pts per team and ended up with the same sort of headache. This time it was not the depth of the rules, but rather the breadth. We all spent way too much time consulting books and various computers and pads and phones, Then finding relevant rules in the brb (which appears to have been written by a commitee that wasn't really talking to each other, or play testing much) that answered questions badly or not at all.

Too much! I don't mind not being across someone elses rules but when you have people misremembering 'cos of the rate of codex change as well as all of the different codices and data slates and formations and etc etc... Well hopefully you can see my point. We are not professional gamers, all of us have real life concerns and the budget in terms of dollars and time is too tight to be able to know exactly what is going on in this game we have invested in.

It didn't help that our 'nid player was just coming back into the game, she was put off by how complicated everything seemed to be. Looking through her eyes I am forced to agree. I like to play both competitively and "beer and pretzels" but I think the game is getting too unwieldy when you arent having fun, you're just trying to find relevant bits of rules from a myriad of sources. Games Workshop continue to amaze with models and confound with the effin' rules to play them, which as I said way back, was the reason I chose to collect their models in the first place. I shouldn't need a library and/or phd to play a game of toy soldiers.

I felt a distinct lack of fun yesterday during the game. If anything can possibly drive me away from a hobby of over twenty years, it'll be when it stops being fun. I sincerely hope I don't get there, but I saw the possibility when our poor beleaguered 'Nid player, listening to three veterans still not knowing exactly what was going on, said with a plaintive wail "It's all too complicated!"
Rant over.
Cheers guys.

+1

We just play 4th Ed now, with 5th Ed terrain rules (wysiwyg terrain). Too many changes, too quickly......and I agree with your comment, we all have normal lives and jobs to focus on as well.......... 8th 40k should be a 20page rule set (like 4th ed), with optional and advanced rules (bringing in all the 7th rules, formations, etc, etc). Thus the basic ruleset keep the game simple, and will allow new players to enter the game 'easily' and develop from there. The current rule set is just too tedious for any new player. Easier to spend money on a plug and play PC game than read that 240 odd page tome.......

[Mikhail233]

Buildings do have hull points now, there's a table, a medium building has 4, small building 3 and a large building 5

[Voltigeur]

I have a confession to make. I haven't read the brb cover to cover since fifth edition, I just skim it for anything that looks different than I remember from the previous edition. I used to be the guy in the group who knew all the rules and owned all the codexes, but the sixth edition Hardcovers and the short turnaround for codexes put an end to that pretty quick. I haven't bought a rulebook or codex since sixth edition dropped and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I have to say that the rules have gotten less important to me as I've grown older. Nowadays I judge a 40k game by how much fun we've had as opposed to who one and by how much. As long as the game was close and we both had a good time then who cares if we broke/forgot a rule or three. It helps that I only play with a group of close friends so I never have to play pickup games or tournaments. People who are forced to play those types of games for lack of their own group have my deepest sympathies.