Servant of the Ruinous Powers

[Fueldrop]

My buddy has decided to get into 40K and has chosen to throw his lot in with the dark gods. Unfortunately, the changer of ways has seen fit to ensure that our local gaming store is without a copy of the CSM codex.

He'll be getting one in on Friday though, so no long term harm done there.

Beyond that, does anyone have any advice for my friend?

[Rissan4ever]

Kill! Maim! Burn!

That's the best advice I've got.

[Fueldrop]

Kill! Maim! Burn!

That's the best advice I've got.

I can't really ask for better advice than that.

[Dalleron]

supposedly, death guard rhino's and oblits are all he needs. Fill out with a DP of some sort. If he isn't going based on fluff in any way lol.

[Fueldrop]

He's something of a fan of the Night Lords, so he's trying to make a somewhat fluffy army along those lines

A whole bunch of us at the local store have been throwing him old SM models to convert and the like, so he's getting some forces like that. Also cultist, lots and lots of cultists...

- - - Updated - - -

BTW here's his cultists. (http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/dark-futures/apocalypse-survivors-men)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

How is your friend wanting to play CSM? You should let him know that overall the codex is not that great at the moment, unless you play with allied daemons, or allies via one of the supplements. Even then I wouldn't really recommend CSM as a starting army. Even if you all are playing for funsies, it is going to be hard on him getting started. You could recommend he get the Khorne Daemonkin book, because it is much more forgiving than C:CSM.

But you can offer this advice to him:

Do not get overwhelmed with upgrades. Go for minimal upgrades, on lords and aspiring champions.
Terminators are great cheap suicide squads, always give a squad of 3 combi-Meltas and a chain fist. Its 112 points or so.
Nurgle Obliterators are fantastic heavy support.
Do NOT put a mark on the Sorcerers. Max them to lvl 3, and roll telepathy; unless you get the Relic from the Crimson Slaughter that lets you roll Divination. 2 Are better than 1.
Cultist are the only really good troops choice in this dex unless he wants a themed list or not.

Any specific questions?

Edit: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?56386-40k-Night-Lords-1850-Campaign-Fluff-list

I have a very fluffy 1850 Night Lord list I'm planning on starting in the next Month in a half, if he's wanting to go for fluffy; but my build is how I interpret the Night Lords Fluff.

[Rissan4ever]

My other best advice is to pick a part of the fluff he really likes, and build an army based on that. That will hold his imagination through the modeling and painting process, and will make the army more fun to play once it's on the table.

[Fueldrop]

How is your friend wanting to play CSM? You should let him know that overall the codex is not that great at the moment, unless you play with allied daemons, or allies via one of the supplements. Even then I wouldn't really recommend CSM as a starting army. Even if you all are playing for funsies, it is going to be hard on him getting started. You could recommend he get the Khorne Daemonkin book, because it is much more forgiving than C:CSM.

But you can offer this advice to him:

Do not get overwhelmed with upgrades. Go for minimal upgrades, on lords and aspiring champions.
Terminators are great cheap suicide squads, always give a squad of 3 combi-Meltas and a chain fist. Its 112 points or so.
Nurgle Obliterators are fantastic heavy support.
Do NOT put a mark on the Sorcerers. Max them to lvl 3, and roll telepathy; unless you get the Relic from the Crimson Slaughter that lets you roll Divination. 2 Are better than 1.
Cultist are the only really good troops choice in this dex unless he wants a themed list or not.

Any specific questions?

Well he ended up with Chaos through a strange set of events.
At first he wanted 'nids. Then his friend said "Hey, I'll go you halves in Dark Vengeance". Then his other friend said "Hey, if you do that I'll buy the Chaos dudes off you when I get some money and you can get your 'nids"
Then the guy with the dark angels half said "sod it, I'm going guard. That's where the real men are!"
Then the other friend said "You know what? I'm going to grab orks."
So he kinda got left holding the ball with CSM, and after a few games decided he liked them.

I'll pass on the general advice, it looks good.

Specific questions:

Best configuration for cultists (melee or ranged, large blobs or bulk small groups?)

Are marks + Icons worth it on standard marines? If so, which ones are best bang for buck?

What's the best deathstar unit for CSM?

On an unrelated note, I was looking through the available disciplines for chaos sorcerers and while telepathy is always awesome, there are other good options too (Biomancy for relentless FNP 4+, Pyromancy + Telepathy for 2+ cover at all times, ect).

Thanks for all the advice thus far.

- - - Updated - - -

Final thing: Since Night Lords are all about terror tactics, what options do CSM have for causing Pinning, Morale, or Ld penalties? Also, what stealth/shrouded options do they get? Not counting psyker shenanigans at this point, as while telepathy has all that it's just not the same.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well he ended up with Chaos through a strange set of events.
At first he wanted 'nids. Then his friend said "Hey, I'll go you halves in Dark Vengeance". Then his other friend said "Hey, if you do that I'll buy the Chaos dudes off you when I get some money and you can get your 'nids"
Then the guy with the dark angels half said "sod it, I'm going guard. That's where the real men are!"
Then the other friend said "You know what? I'm going to grab orks."
So he kinda got left holding the ball with CSM, and after a few games decided he liked them.



I'll pass on the general advice, it looks good.

Specific questions:

Best configuration for cultists (melee or ranged, large blobs or bulk small groups?)

Are marks + Icons worth it on standard marines? If so, which ones are best bang for buck?

What's the best deathstar unit for CSM?

On an unrelated note, I was looking through the available disciplines for chaos sorcerers and while telepathy is always awesome, there are other good options too (Biomancy for relentless FNP 4+, Pyromancy + Telepathy for 2+ cover at all times, ect).

Thanks for all the advice thus far.

- - - Updated - - -

Final thing: Since Night Lords are all about terror tactics, what options do CSM have for causing Pinning, Morale, or Ld penalties? Also, what stealth/shrouded options do they get? Not counting psyker shenanigans at this point, as while telepathy has all that it's just not the same.

You pick telepathy for invisibility, because that is a huge intimidation factor, and forces your opponent to choose between that and shrouded. Plus psychic shriek is a fantastic spell to cast. I usually put them on a bikes or in TDA. As far as Death Stars go, I don't really, have a good pick for you there. Closest thing I can recommend is the blood thirster or a daemon prince with the black mace, wings, MoS or MoN, and power armor.
Cultist should be taken cheap with no upgrades and left in reserves. Just GtG when shot at. Marks and icons gets super expensive quick.
Icon of vengeance is really the only one I'd spend the points on for fearless. Cause veterans adds up quick and not having ATSKNF sucks.

Raptors, and the Crimson Slaugher have great fear inducing effects, but you can't take VotLW with that supplement.

[Charon]

Beyond that, does anyone have any advice for my friend?

Do not start Chaos, saves you a lot of grief as they are nowhere near the background suggests it and loyal Space Marines are just better and cheaper.


Final thing: Since Night Lords are all about terror tactics, what options do CSM have for causing Pinning, Morale, or Ld penalties? Also, what stealth/shrouded options do they get? Not counting psyker shenanigans at this point, as while telepathy has all that it's just not the same.

Nothng. You don't even have different Legions.

[Fueldrop]

Do not start Chaos, saves you a lot of grief as they are nowhere near the background suggests it and loyal Space Marines are just better and cheaper.


Nothng. You don't even have different Legions.

Since he's already got 80 models or so, telling him to scrap his army for another one might be a bit of a bad choice.

However, since we're probably going to be doing a bunch of friendly games rather than the tournament circuit, a bit of house-ruling might be workable.

Given the Night Lords fluff how does this sound:

Terror Tactics:
Units with this special rule gain the Stealth USR until they either shoot, manifest a power, or strike in melee. If they lose this stealth by shooting, then for that shooting phase their weapons gain the pinning special rule. If they lose this stealth by manifesting a power then any leadership check related to powers manifested that phase, or due to casualties inflicted by powers manifested that phase, are made at -1 Ld. If they lose this stealth during the close combat phase then they gain the fear special rule for that phase.

Terror tactics is possessed by Night Lords Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Terminators, Chaos Chosen, Chaos Lords, Chaos Havocs, Chaos Raptors, and Chaos Sorcerers.

Thoughts?

[Charon]

Depending on the models he already has I would suggest just using the space marine codex with Ravenguard Chapter Tactics. Way more accurate than anything the chaos codex has to offer.

[Fueldrop]

Depending on the models he already has I would suggest just using the space marine codex with Ravenguard Chapter Tactics. Way more accurate than anything the chaos codex has to offer.
That's an option I'll discuss with him. It does sound pretty good all things considered.

[0rph3u5]

Fluffy Night Lords are possible with the current CSM-dex but not very efficent (not the dex fault, the fear usr is crap), using the CrimS-supplement improves on this (Volw is a very tiny sacrifice IMO)

I haven't followed the loyalist dex as closely as I should (mostly play Eldar/Harlies/Dark Eldar these days) - but the advice to go with RG sounds solid to me

(of course you could always house-rule that he get the Legion-tactics from HH: Massacre instead of VoLW, those are awesome)

[Fueldrop]

It's sad when a codex is considered completely unable to stand on its own merits.

[Lord Manton]

It's sad when a codex is considered completely unable to stand on its own merits.

Yup. As soon as I heard smurfs could take vehicles in squadrons, I'll admit I thought about picking it up for Iron Warriors. IW are undivided, abhor mutation, and don't necessarily do the whole daemons thing. So honestly, I can't think of any solid reason as to why I shouldn't use the loyalist 'dex. It's pretty sad TBH.

[Fueldrop]

Honestly, I think that chaos veterans should be at least WS 5 BS 5, as after 10,000 years of war you'd expect them to be better than their loyalist counterparts due to experience.

I'd love to see Legion Tactica, with each legion having distinct strengths like the loyalist chapters. I'd love to see an expanded list of cultists acting as a mini "Lost and the Damned" dex. I'd love to replace fearless with the Chaos Lord able to flat out choose whether to pass or fail any leadership check they're called on to make, which is replaced based on what god you dedicate him to (Korne gives fearless. Nurgle gives Stubborn, Tzeench would give immunity to sweeping advances (you teleport out of combat rather than running away, possibly even allow you to deep strike to anywhere on the battlefield on any turn you rally. Slaanesh would replace it with It Will Not Die on any turn your squad is fleeing (as you're experiencing fear, a new sensation to most chaos lords, and this reinvigorates you)).

I'd love to have access to some guard vehicles manned by traitors or possessed by demons. Because the only thing that can make a Leman Russ more awesome? Give it the ability to heal itself by nomming anyone nearby.

The dark powers are a serious threat to the galaxy. It's time they started acting like it!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well honestly Khorne Daemonkin are really really powerful in my opinion and are much more forgiving because you get the blood tithe and it accumulates for all units destroyed. It is very fast, and really puts pressure on the opponent. I would recommend him looking into that.

If he has that many models already, take Typhus and make the zombie horde with cultist. I love the CSMs and they do have some neat tricks, and while there are overall better books out right now, there is no reason he can't play the C:CSM plus rumor has it they will be getting some supplement love soon. If he already has a Daemon Prince model just .PDF Be'Lakor or Cypher, both are free with a quick search and add pretty neat advantages to the overall book. Same thing with all those Hell Brutes. Sure they are crazy and unpredictable, but their formations are free via .PDF as above and an AV12 insane dreadnought with a 3+ cover save is actually quite fun.

As far as night lords go, I wish they had stealth naturally, but they don't need it. They are more about quick strikes, hit and run would've been my choice, but wish listing aside, if you are playing for fun and no one cares, then play how you want, rules can be more of a guideline in 40k because forging the narrative and having fun are what 40k is really about.

There are some really bad rules in the C:CSM like your champions always having to issue and accept challenges, which You can house rule that you don't, or you give the champion a mini boost, I.e. Hatred/WS5 +1 A in challenge etc. The Boon table is really fun, until you roll Spawn Hood or Dark Apothesist on your warlord...

Overall C:CSM is a really awesome army aesthetically, convertibility, and more options and flavor than many other codices. I'm pretty critical of the dex at times, but overall that doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing it, or have fun list building.

A few more final thoughts for your friend:

Don't feel discouraged reading some of the responses, enjoy your toys, and Wacky things happen when dice are involved!

[Lord Manton]

Slaanesh would replace it with It Will Not Die on any turn your squad is fleeing (as you're experiencing fear, a new sensation to most chaos lords, and this reinvigorates you)).

This I think would actually be an awesome rule. Seems very fluffy, but pretty powerful when I think about it.
Chaos do need to be a bit better, but I think the real diversity is what is lacking. I would hope that Chaos get a similar treatment to Space Marines. There are so many traitor players out there, you really need something to draw them in. Khorne Daemonkin was a good start, but I don't foresee a Tzeentch daemonkin like everyone thinks is coming. But if we could get something to first make each of the gods play well, and then the legions too. I think we need to play Horus Heresy, us Chaos folk :P

[angkor what?]

You can do all of this its called Imperial armour 13


EDIT:S sorry this was directed at a particular reply but I must of missed the quote

[Fueldrop]

Well, he's decided to look into some other armies after reading on the interwebs. Necrons have caught his eye, as have the 'Nids. DE are also on the block. I've suggested that he borrow armies from some local players who already own them and have a couple of small games to get the feel before buying anything, and that if possible he should look at what considers Chaos Space Marines allies so that he can still use his existing models.

[Austin Becht]

Here's my advice:

Research. Research. Research.

I got into 40k about 7 years ago. I started with Necrons. I played them, a lot, and ammased quite the collection. But as I played them I slowly became more and more uninterested in them, and this set on very quick. Then the 6th edition codex rolled around...I got some of the new units and my love for the ay was reinvigorated. I kept playing my Crons but I became more and more uninterested. Shortly thereafter I dropped the army. Didn't help that I lost or broke quite a few of my models over that time, but I was young then and had no clue how to best store my models. But that's besides the point...

After I got rid of my Crons I wanted to keep playing 40k, but never really had any clue which army to play. So I started talking to people at my FLGS, and doing a lot of browsing online, reading articles and looking at models. Took me a while, but I finally found a fit: Imperial Guard. Even better, they had just gotten a new codex: Astra Militarum, and the game had just entered 7th edition. While I haven't gotten a lot, and have been sidetracked by Adeptus Mechanics, trading card games, and the Hobbit SBG as of recently, I love the way my Mechanized Guard army works. I only have about a platoon and a few tanks, but that it's a blast to play. But I never would have been playing them, or the game for that matter, had I not done a profound amount of research into the various armies and seen which one I liked best. It helps that I also have a better win-loss-tie rating with them as well.

And if your friend can playtest some armies without having to buy swathes of models, even better. There arent many people in my area who would allow that. But if he has the opportunity, he should definitely take it; its a great way to learn an army, as well as see if it fits your playstyle. It's how I switched from Mordor/Eastern Kingdoms, in Hobbit SBG, to Angmar. I watched a friend play the army, and then asked if I could take it for a spin, and it was a blast.