Taking a look at poison, snipers, and gargantuan MCs.

[Fueldrop]

Poison and Sniper weapons have a reduced effect against GMCs, only wounding on 6's against them.

I feel this is a horrible mistake.

GMCs are very tough. Many of them are flat out immune to the small arms fire that makes up the bulk of most armies. Even light tank killers such as autocannons struggle to meaningfully wound a wraith knight, and there could be 5 of those wandering around the field in a 1850 point game.

Even those wounds that do get through its armour run into a 5+ feel no pain, a constant for all GMCs. Given cover shenanigans, a GMC can easily have a 4+ cover 5+ feel no pain, on top of 7+ toughness and 5+ wounds.

Most armies are going to have a LOT of trouble killing that, even discounting tricks like making them invisible or giving them shrouded via psyker. Not everyone can spam ranged Strength D or undermounted Grav weapons.

This is why sniper and poison weapons should not be nerfed against GMCs. They're available to almost every army in one form or another, are a hard counter to GMCs at the cost of being ineffective against cannon fodder and vehicles.

This hard counter is desperately needed in the current meta, where Wraithknights are considered severely undercosted for their durability. Even with the hard counter a Wraithknight's still got a 3+ 5+FNP between it and poison, thus hardly rendering them helpless against such foes, so they hardly become useless, and with the exception of Dark Eldar no-one can spam mass ranged poison.

That's my thoughts on the matter. If you want to convince me otherwise, go right ahead.

[CoffeeGrunt]

IMO Snipers are a bit rubbish in general, I've never seen a squad of Sniper Scouts or a Sniper Company Command Squad prove their worth. Might be my rolls, but I had an entire game recently where 4 of them couldn't kill a single Marine.

[Fueldrop]

IMO Snipers are a bit rubbish in general, I've never seen a squad of Sniper Scouts or a Sniper Company Command Squad prove their worth. Might be my rolls, but I had an entire game recently where 4 of them couldn't kill a single Marine.

Agreed. Snipers aren't really that scary, but a lot of people don't realize this. I once got a wraithlord to hide in a building for 3 full turns plus have an entire army concentrate all their firepower on a 60 point squad of rangers with high ground in a ruin. That 2+ cover was very helpful, but I think that they inflicted a total of 1 wound that whole game.

Of course, there are times when the luck just goes your way. Flying Demon Prince, had one wound left and I was out of AA. It was going to have an It Will Not Die roll at the end of the turn then swoop in and kill my stuff, so as a hail Mary I opened up with my rangers (same squad as above). Boom, headshot.
Later that game the 5 man squad sacrificed themselves to kill a wounded Kharn the Betrayer by shooting pistols at him and assaulting. He killed them all before going down, but it was still heroic as all hell.

But yes, as a general rule snipers rarely pay for themselves. Having them effective against GMCs might be a way to remedy that issue.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It was going to have an It Will Not Die roll at the end of the turn then swoop in and kill my stuff

Isn't IWND only triggered at the end of the owning player's turn?

[Fueldrop]

Isn't IWND only triggered at the end of the owning player's turn?

Probably. Still would have kicked in before my next turn.

[Dave Mcturk]

its not that snipers are truly awful - its just that most have a crazy short range - 60" would be better - and they should come in 1/2/3 man teams and not count towards kill points [or mb 1/2 a kill point ?] - and all decent quality snipers should be able to infiltrate to a 'hide' and not be spotted or hit until they fire. [and get shrouded and stealth][like anti-tank guns in ww2 games]

and the 50% chance to convert to a wound is crazy - they should be fleshbane !

some 'sniper' round types like kroot arent that bad and are really just a 'variation' on poison - not true snipers.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, Kroot can mass the shots to make Sniper work, the same as Sniper Drone Teams, especially with Storm of Fire. It seems it's mainly the Imperial factions that have such lacklustre sniping ability. 36" range and Heavy 1 makes them so meh.

[Dave Mcturk]

i play eldar - and our snipers are even worse ! 25pts for a dar that cant hit a barn door at 20 paces - i shoot better [and im not good ]

[Charon]

Not sure what game you are playing but an Eldar Ranger is 12 points.

[Dave Mcturk]

not got new codex yet - pathfinders are/were 25pts - a basic ranger is just cannon fodder ! if theyve dropped the points then awesome! :rolleyes:

and ld 8 just stinks !

[Fueldrop]

not got new codex yet - pathfinders are/were 25pts - a basic ranger is just cannon fodder ! if theyve dropped the points then awesome! :rolleyes:

and ld 8 just stinks !

Ah, the old pathfinders...

Everyone at my game shop thought they were much more badass than they actually were, so everyone focused fire on them from the word go. 25 pts/model for a squad with terminator durability who were guaranteed to draw fire? Bargain.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Terminator durability?

Also check out Ratlings. I wish I could trade them out for Rangers for a mere 2pts each...

[Mr Mystery]

Snipers aren't exactly there to cause mass casualties. Even in real life....

Gargantuan Creatures should be able to shrug off a single puny bullet, no matter how well placed, on account they're massive great honking things, with either multiple vital organs (got to love multiple redundancy!) because they've been engineered that way, or no single weak spot (seriously, where does one aim for on a Wraithknight? Got no eyes! Got no organs! Got no 'nads!)

Snipers should be used for strategic target removal - such as killing the weapon specialist, or nobbling the squad leader. Now, whether they're entirely effective at present is a different matter (I rarely use them currently, purely for reasons that, well, I just don't!)

[CoffeeGrunt]

See, that's my problem. You imagine snipers as singular men who can pick off enemies like the Vindicare, (only less effective.) Snipping out priority targets to turn the tide of a battle with a single bullet.

Sadly, it's still a case of quality beats quantity. A single Sniper is hardly likely to affect the battle, so you need a few of them. They should amend their rule so they always get Precision Shots, and a 6 forces your opponent to re-roll the Cover Save if they get one, to represent it being an incredibly precise shot. Maybe give them Fleshbane against Infantry models and the standard 4+ against MCs and bump up the points cost to compensate, so you then have snipers who are worth fearing.

[Fueldrop]

(seriously, where does one aim for on a Wraithknight? Got no eyes! Got no organs! Got no 'nads!)


I'd aim for the pilot personally. But maybe that's just me.

[Mr Mystery]

And where does the pilot sit? It's not as if knowledge of Xenos species, let alone their military hardware and how it works is particularly common knowledge.

Pilot for a Titan is in the Noggin. Wraithknight? I always think it's the chest....and you still need to know the precise location, and hope it doesn't vary from target to target to suit the needs of it's crew.

[Fueldrop]

And where does the pilot sit? It's not as if knowledge of Xenos species, let alone their military hardware and how it works is particularly common knowledge.

Pilot for a Titan is in the Noggin. Wraithknight? I always think it's the chest....and you still need to know the precise location, and hope it doesn't vary from target to target to suit the needs of it's crew.

According to my Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the inferior Eldar technology is just a pale imitation of our grand Imperial designs. Ergo aim for the head.

Stupid Xenos and their stupid "technology". Bet it doesn't even have a proper machine spirit.

[Mr Mystery]

It's got a proper spirit instead :p

And not the ropey comic book character neither :p

[Fueldrop]

In any case, the point is largely meta. virtually every army has access to either snipers and/or poison, so making those hard counters to GMCs makes them less of a game breaker. When you consider that Superheavies aren't immune to haywire and melta, two of the most common anti-vehicle solutions, having GMCs be cheaper AND immune to the common counters to their lesser brethren makes less sense.

- - - Updated - - -


It's got a proper spirit instead :p

Heresy! That almost sounds like... AI.

We all know how bad Abominable Intelligence is, right?

[Mr Mystery]

Trouble is, without those limits, GC become a bit poop, and all too easily taken out.

[Fueldrop]

Trouble is, without those limits, GC become a bit poop, and all too easily taken out.

You say that: Snipers are fairly meh, with between 25% and around 45% chance of even wounding with a shot. Against most targets, said shot is going to be less effective than a bolter round, unless it rends... which currently works on GMCs anyway. All you're doing is adding the ability to get extra wounds that have a chance of being stopped by their Armour+FNP, making snipers at best marginally more threatening to the likes of a WK. Remember, if the enemy doesn't bring a GMC the the odds are good that those snipers won't make their points back in kills.

Poison is interesting. To the best of my knowledge the only army that has access to massive amounts of cheap ranged poison is the Dark Eldar, who are considered one of the lowest tier armies at the moment (I do hear a lot of talk about swiping their rides, though...)
Outside of that poisoned attacks are most prevalent in melee (and entering melee with a GMC has it's own problems), and with Sternguard Veterans who are issued with specialist rounds designed... to kill 'Nid MCs and GMCs.

Now I know that the idea of having a weapon be effective at the job it's designed for is crazy talk in 40K, but the fact of the matter is that between good armour, massive numbers of wounds and FNP GMCs are again unlikely to be killed by poison in a single round (barring Dark Eldar, who can level the stuff en mass). Considering that a wraithknight can make its points back VERY quickly with a couple of well placed strength D shots, can be deep striked to prevent drop pod shenanigans and guarantee at least one round of good shooting... I'm just saying that adding some counters that everyone can get access to, stuff that is generally considered underwhelming outside of this (see sniper discussion above)...

I'm not seeing how making a 300 point unit killable is really that big a problem. My last encounter with a Wraithknight only ended because I doomed it, put guide on my tank squadron, and opened up with literally my entire 1750 point army. I was lucky, as my last shot killed it. It was a pistol with e-rend. Most non-eldar armies can't go "I'm rerolling failed wounds against you, and all my small arms are rending. Die as I unload everything into your ***!"

My opponent and I agreed that if that warlock hadn't been lucky with his pistol (though I'm beginning to doubt luck is the explanation as he's since repeated the feat on a particularly durable carnifex, and then a second one in the same game. I'm beginning to suspect that warlock just likes capping big stuff) the one-wound-remaining wraithknight would have rampaged through my lines next turn and killed half my army. Having a counter available to everyone doesn't seem to be a bad option in my view.

[CoffeeGrunt]

One could argue that it's a good thing that Superheavies are tough to bring down in a round of shooting. They're expensive, their durability should reflect that.

[Venomlust]

One could argue that it's a good thing that Superheavies are tough to bring down in a round of shooting. They're expensive, their durability should reflect that.

In theory I agree with you. The flipside of the coin is that with a lucky volley they can erase just about any unit, including other superheavies, which is pretty frustrating. Most of them are costed appropriately, some aren't. No need to open that can of worms but that's the way it is.

A single turn of shooting shouldn't take one down, unless the enemy pours literally everything they've got into it. But then some lists are perhaps never going to kill it with any amount of shooting or even close combat attacks. That's the problem scenario that would be addressed by certain weapons being more effective against them. I guess lascannons/plasma can always get the job done, unless they get wiped out before they can do anything.

[Charon]

A single turn of shooting shouldn't take one down, unless the enemy pours literally everything they've got into it.

And there is another Problem. If you have to pour everything into it, your opponent still has most of his army intact but out of position (as you had to move your whole **** to get into range to focus) ready to get shredded next round. If you happen to get second he could be smart enought to try and eliminate any real threat to his superheavy and make it basically invincible for the rest of the game.

[Venomlust]

And there is another Problem. If you have to pour everything into it, your opponent still has most of his army intact but out of position (as you had to move your whole **** to get into range to focus) ready to get shredded next round. If you happen to get second he could be smart enought to try and eliminate any real threat to his superheavy and make it basically invincible for the rest of the game.

Yeah, absolutely. Which is why they should always be "fairly" priced, so in mid-sized games there aren't still a ton of other threats on the table that will probably outdamage the giant to begin with. I don't face them often, so it's not a huge deal, but I suppose things could always be better.

[Arkhan Land]

I think in general you all are looking at these units the wrong way, As useful as they are I am usually more into the fact that my scouts/snipers/rattlings have infiltrate. Deploying these units on objectives before turn one garuntees some need for your opposing player to try and gun them off/move them off turn 1 in order to score/contest/etc. not to mention that if you ignore one of these sqauds and let them pop off rounds at full strength twice they might cause a wound, worse a pinning test.

heres a thought, rangers that dont shoot their sniper rifles can move, shoot their shr. pistols and move back. try and bladestorm you a mofo and hop out. tap dance dat objective.

[Sly]

Most of them are costed appropriately, some aren't. No need to open that can of worms but that's the way it is.

Actually, I'd much rather open up that can of worms than complain about Sniper/Poison weapons, because frankly, most GMCs are fine. Yes, it takes a whole lot of shooting to kill a Tyranic GMC. But it's also a whole lot of points. When you look at the point efficiency per shot, most GMCs are not all that unreasonable. Frankly, it's just the 300-pt Wraithknight, that can't be considered a "defensive unit" since it has a lot of firepower per point, where the point efficiency of such weapons is so bad.

So it does come down to "some are not priced appropriately", not to "sniper weapons are too weak against GMCs".

[LCS]

Kind of think it's both.

- - - Updated - - -


I think in general you all are looking at these units the wrong way, As useful as they are I am usually more into the fact that my scouts/snipers/rattlings have infiltrate. Deploying these units on objectives before turn one garuntees some need for your opposing player to try and gun them off/move them off turn 1 in order to score/contest/etc. not to mention that if you ignore one of these sqauds and let them pop off rounds at full strength twice they might cause a wound, worse a pinning test.

heres a thought, rangers that dont shoot their sniper rifles can move, shoot their shr. pistols and move back. try and bladestorm you a mofo and hop out. tap dance dat objective.

I.... I just... wow. OK. No words.

[Denzark]

Remember fluff wise, imperial sniper weapons used to use a lower powered laser to inject a sliver of metal with a toxin tailored to specific races. If I remember correctly it was in the 40K compendium and in said 40k book even mentioned a toxin to be used against Skaven!

So we're not talking about a shot relying on mass a la modern day sniper weapons - but a complete poisoning of the body.

I know things change in the ensuing period, but even so on the poison basis it would be possible for anything with any organic structure at all to be rendered down.

I think the problem is not poison or sniper weapons lacking against GCs - it is the increasing proliferation of GCs. High Toughness (by which I mean 6+) high wound creatures are harder to kill than the heaviest non SH vehicles - which for me is total BS. There shouldn't be much not on tracks or wheels in the galaxy more frightening than a SM dreadnought but I laugh everytime I see an AV 12 3hp use of 100pts in front of me.

[Path Walker]

Sniper weapons hit vulnerable parts, heads, eyes, hearts, thats what the Rending-Lite represents, the sniper landing a perfect shot on a vulernable part of the target. GMCs are so massive that even their vulnerable areas aren't hurt by weapons as comparitivly small as Sniper weapons.

[Charon]

High Toughness (by which I mean 6+) high wound creatures are harder to kill than the heaviest non SH vehicles

Depends.
AV12 can get glanced by S6. That would be equivalent to T8.
The DE Talos for example is over 100 points and sits at T7.
The dread does not care about fleshbane, poison, sniper, ID

The real difference between these 2 are the random factor of pentetrating hits, the different AV on different angles and the lack of armor.
Thats about it. And with the new SM codex, the 100 points dread with 4 base attacks and S10 is far more dreadful than the 120 points Talos with 3 attacks and S7/T7

[CoffeeGrunt]

Sniper weapons hit vulnerable parts, heads, eyes, hearts, thats what the Rending-Lite represents, the sniper landing a perfect shot on a vulernable part of the target. GMCs are so massive that even their vulnerable areas aren't hurt by weapons as comparitivly small as Sniper weapons.

Indeed, for a good example watch the new Godzilla.

Why is the US army sending men with infantry assault rifles against a walking skyscraper that, to hold in all its organs, likely has skin as thick as a man is tall? Clearly it makes no sense to send anti-infantry firepower against Godzilla, especially when one sees that anti-tank missiles and rounds fail to inflict any significant hurt upon him.

Gargantuan Creatures are meant to be like Godzilla. Oh, you hit me with a Krak Missile? Pah, I barely felt that, and if I did the metre-wide crater it punched into my flesh is like a mere graze to you!

I don't want to see Godzilla get brought down by sniper rifles, that would be silly. In addition, poison probably delivers enough of a dose to seriously hurt an Infantry-sized target or even a larger creature, but Godzilla? Up the dose son, because he ain't feeling it.

[Charon]

I don't want to see Godzilla get brought down by sniper rifles, that would be silly. In addition, poison probably delivers enough of a dose to seriously hurt an Infantry-sized target or even a larger creature, but Godzilla? Up the dose son, because he ain't feeling it.

No, but I don't want to see Godzilla + Soliders on one side against Soliders which can't wound Godzilla on the other side. Because this would be equally stupid and one-sided to watch.

[CoffeeGrunt]

No, but I don't want to see Godzilla + Soliders on one side against Soliders which can't wound Godzilla on the other side. Because this would be equally stupid and one-sided to watch.

Adjust the points cost to match it. Or, I dunno, ask your opponent if they're playing Godzilla.

[Path Walker]

Heaven forbid you discuss the next few hours hobby time you'll be spending with an opponent to ensure you both get as much out of it as you can!

[Denzark]

Don't start that discussion again PW for some reason the majority of the continental US hate chatting about their game before they travel the vast distances to the nearest FLGS.

[Path Walker]

If only there were some form of readily available system of communication open to the people of this forum, that they could use to have a conversation about their hobby before they played a game. Someone should get on to that.

[Charon]

Adjust the points cost to match it. Or, I dunno, ask your opponent if they're playing Godzilla.

Because everybody is totally keen on homebrew rules :rolleyes:

[Path Walker]

Because everybody is totally keen on homebrew rules :rolleyes:

Not what he said, but they should be anyway, the game does everything it can to say that you should be using home brew rules to make it fun for you and your opponent and that the rules in the book are a guideline

[Denzark]

If only there were some form of readily available system of communication open to the people of this forum, that they could use to have a conversation about their hobby before they played a game. Someone should get on to that.

Wasn't there some fella called Zuckerberg or something, had a madcap idea about that?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Because everybody is totally keen on homebrew rules :rolleyes:

Ignoring the other point about talking to your opponent just to make a snarky comment? You realise that 99% of the problems with the game are sorted with a pre-game conversation, right?

I find the culture talked about on the internet to be so strange. Where I'm at, discussing what armies we're thinking of bringing and organising games in advance is just how things roll, yet people talk about organising games and discussing armies pre-game as if such things are cripplingly difficult...

[Charon]

When I look at facebook or forum events it seems to be cripplingly difficult to just post "I intend to come"

So especially if your group is smaller questions like "who will be playing 40k tomorrow" will most of the time go unanswered or ansered with a "maybe"

And even with a "are you bringing Gargantuans?" "Yes" That is not helping my poison army to kill it, does it?
And i am the last on who will try and thell the other guy what he has to play and how he is supposed to build his army. Making rules and army compositions is actually the job of a certain company we happen to stick money up their ***** for RULEbooks.

[Archon Charybdis]

I think the issue is less about Poison and Sniper not working, but the fact that all GCs come with FNP now by default, and can get a 4+ cover save by having a toe in ruins. Drop FNP (which leaves it still as a possible upgrade for say Nurgle or Nid GCs), and require a GC to be 25% covered like a vehicle. It also wouldn't hurt to go back to the "only Witchfires can affect GCs/SHs." I had to deal with a Shrouded Wraithknight in a ruin the other day and I had absolutely no fun that game.

On a related note, how many GC's have actually been included in the basic 40K codexes since 7th ed? Just the Wraithknight? All the FW ones were pointed prior to the 7th ed power boost, and the only one that's actually been released in 7th ed (the Wraithknight) is pretty universally agreed to be undercosted. Rolling back some of the 7th ed changes for GCs might be the perfect fix.

[Arkhan Land]

I.... I just... wow. OK. No words.

what you dont like my hypothetical eldar driveby? you gotta be careful in the mean streets of the craftworld :p

but yeah seriously these weapons are symbolic, go score some points or keep your opponents from doing so for two turns and be happy it only took you 100-150 points.



on the original dilemna I think maybe what could help this out is some sort of in between

perhaps another way to view it is that its up to the monster to shrug it off:

GMCs ignore the effects of poison/sniper wound on the roll of 2+

[Mr Mystery]

Just makes them tougher, as you would have to wound, and then successful wounds would have the 1 in 6 chance of not being ignored.

- - - Updated - - -


Ignoring the other point about talking to your opponent just to make a snarky comment? You realise that 99% of the problems with the game are sorted with a pre-game conversation, right?

I find the culture talked about on the internet to be so strange. Where I'm at, discussing what armies we're thinking of bringing and organising games in advance is just how things roll, yet people talk about organising games and discussing armies pre-game as if such things are cripplingly difficult...

Yep.

I'm breaking my 7th Ed and Mechanicus duck on Sunday, having booked a game at my local GW.

2,000 points, and unbound. Immediate taker.

Had someone said 'I can do 2,000 but don't fancy Unbound' then I'd have happily come to terms with them.

Only reason I wanted to go Unbound is that I haven't played 7th Ed yet (been very, very busy at work. And usually hungover on a Sunday) and really don't have a handle on allies and how they work, let alone how I want to field my burgeoning Mechanicus and Skitarii units. Unbound lets me just plonk on what I've got, allowing me to get an idea of how each unit performs.

I'm reminded of a lost somewhere on BoLs by someone claiming the Ork Codex 'legitimised' the use of Super Heavies in standard 40k because of the Stompa's inclusion....yeah when the rules are in the rule book, it's about legitimate an option as you'll find.

Person A not liking Rule X does not mean Rule X is poorly written after all.

[Lost Vyper]

I love the whole Sniper idea, but couple of things annoy me in the 40K universe...

1. Illic is worst Sniper than Vindicare? Get the f*** outta here! There should be at least no Look Out Sir´s on his shots or something...
2. The whole Sniper rule should be tweaked a bit, there should be a way to at least glance any vehicle or something...i have terrible luck with my (now again awesome) Eldar Rangers, usually (with 5 man unit) only one or two wounds/round, no Rending...but that´s just bad dice rolling...

[LCS]

Person A not liking Rule X does not mean Rule X is poorly written after all.

At the same time, Rule X being included in the rulebook does not make Rule X well written. Which is where most of the problems in this game come from: poorly written and unbalanced rules.

[Haighus]

I don't want to see Godzilla get brought down by sniper rifles, that would be silly. In addition, poison probably delivers enough of a dose to seriously hurt an Infantry-sized target or even a larger creature, but Godzilla? Up the dose son, because he ain't feeling it.
Well, based on the weight of the current (largest) version of Godzilla, which is 81,500 metric tons apparently, it would take less than a 5th of a gram of botulinum toxin to kill it. Granted this would take a few days, potentially a few weeks to kill it, if it could survive falling over. Now, there is in no guarantee that botulinum would affect Godzilla, but considering it's mechanism of action, it is pretty likely. There are plenty of toxins out there that do not need to be in large quantities to kill, and I'm sure the IoM could locate/develop one that is capable of hurting Godzilla, and I am even more sure the Dark Eldar could. Needing a lot of a toxin isn't really an issue... although delivering it would be harder (eyes, gums, anywhere along it's digestive tract would be the easiest targets).

Interestingly, Fleshbane still wounds GC on a 2+ as far as I can tell, so maybe Hellfire rounds should be Fleshbane to represent this. I am pretty sure a bolt-round can fit in a gram of poison...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Interestingly, Fleshbane still wounds GC on a 2+ as far as I can tell, so maybe Hellfire rounds should be Fleshbane to represent this. I am pretty sure a bolt-round can fit in a gram of poison...

I thought Hellfire Rounds were more like an extremely reactive acid? In that case, they might not be able to melt away enough of, say, a Heirophant, to matter over the course of a game.

[Path Walker]

Why do people still seem to think area terrain is a thing?

- - - Updated - - -


Well, based on the weight of the current (largest) version of Godzilla, which is 81,500 metric tons apparently, it would take less than a 5th of a gram of botulinum toxin to kill it. Granted this would take a few days, potentially a few weeks to kill it, if it could survive falling over. Now, there is in no guarantee that botulinum would affect Godzilla, but considering it's mechanism of action, it is pretty likely. There are plenty of toxins out there that do not need to be in large quantities to kill, and I'm sure the IoM could locate/develop one that is capable of hurting Godzilla, and I am even more sure the Dark Eldar could. Needing a lot of a toxin isn't really an issue... although delivering it would be harder (eyes, gums, anywhere along it's digestive tract would be the easiest targets).

Interestingly, Fleshbane still wounds GC on a 2+ as far as I can tell, so maybe Hellfire rounds should be Fleshbane to represent this. I am pretty sure a bolt-round can fit in a gram of poison...

I think this is exactly why they still work but at a reduced effectiveness, its harder to get a real vulerance point on something whose eyelids are thick enough not to be penetrated by a round, so the Sniper (or Poison user) has to have much better timing/accuracy

[CoffeeGrunt]

Why do people still seem to think area terrain is a thing?

Indeed, I'm not finding it in my rulebook lately, yet people keep assuring me a Wraithknight with its knees in a Ruin gets a 4+ Save.

Maybe my local's playing it wrong, but we treat MCs like vehicles in that regard.

[Charon]

Indeed, I'm not finding it in my rulebook lately,

For Example Battlescape:

Models on the base of a battlescape model receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured.

or Ruins:

Ruins: Ruins are difficult terrain. Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured.

So in short people think area terrain is still there because some terrain still is area terrain.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Ah. Glad we house-ruled it to be otherwise, then. Not a well thought-out rule on GW's part, but that's a pretty common statement, isn't it?

[Houghten]

I thought Hellfire Rounds were more like an extremely reactive acid? In that case, they might not be able to melt away enough of, say, a Heirophant, to matter over the course of a game.

Mutagenic acid. I think the "acid" part is to explain why it works on Necrons, wraith constructs and battle robots. For everything else, there's mutagen.


Why do people still seem to think area terrain is a thing?

Well, chiefly because it is.

"Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured." - The Rules, page 108


vulerance

wat


Maybe my local's playing it wrong, but we treat MCs like vehicles in that regard.

Wrong, but entirely sensible.

[Archon Charybdis]

Wrong, but entirely sensible.

I'll say it again, that and probably dropping FNP as a default GC rule would balance them just about perfectly. It'll also make me feel not so bad for the Scabiethrax, the Nurgle GC who pays for FNP that everyone else now gets free.

[YorkNecromancer]

What if there were two types of Sniper? Like Skyfire makes you good against flyers but bollocks against everything else - a Sniper type that puts paid to GMC, but is so unwieldy that it's inefficient against literally everything else.

Say we call one Sniper, and the second Antimateriel.

Sniper is the basic type we have now. Antimateriel has Poisoned (2+), and a special rule saying it wounds GMC on a 4+ but with the cost of giving the unit Slow and Purposeful (or maybe Ordnance, even though it's an Infantry weapon?), because of the delicacy of the equipment or some other fluff justification? Or maybe some other rule that says it cannot be fired without having done nothing in the previous turn (to represent the colossal size of the weapon/setup time needed).

[Fueldrop]

Really, after all the sniper nerfs since 5th (No rending means goodbye to hail Marys against light vehicles, No pinning means no use as psychological weaponry [which was one of the only uses of snipers against an army like guard]) in exchange for a very low chance of getting to pick your target, which is then vanished by a look out sir roll, I think that throwing them a bone would be nice. The only thing they're really good at by now is taking shots at monstrous creatures.

[Gridlock]

Really, after all the sniper nerfs since 5th (No rending means goodbye to hail Marys against light vehicles, No pinning means no use as psychological weaponry [which was one of the only uses of snipers against an army like guard]) in exchange for a very low chance of getting to pick your target, which is then vanished by a look out sir roll, I think that throwing them a bone would be nice. The only thing they're really good at by now is taking shots at monstrous creatures.

Yes i remember reading a Dark Eldar guide back when the Dark Eldar got their first upgrade back in 5th.
They had this really nice sniper weapon the Haemonculus could equip.
Now it´s gone and i think it´s really a shame, because shooting is about the only thing the DE can still do.
In close combat we get slaughtered by overwatch.

[Archon Charybdis]

In close combat we get slaughtered by overwatch.

Wyches do, but Wyches have been bad pretty much since 6th edition hit. Just about everything else holds up reasonably to perfectly well. Grotesques and Talos aren't overly concerned with overwatch.

[Gridlock]

Maybe not, but then again you KNOW there is a problem with your Codex when you have one trick ponies and they don´t do that trick very well or at all.
Wyches and Bloodbrides are our main close combat units and as you said ever since 6th edition they have been a joke.
As for Talos and Grotesques i would say what are they even doing fighting normal troops? before hand these where the guys you threw against the elite the Terminators, Dreadnoughts etc etc.

[Charon]

Maybe not, but then again you KNOW there is a problem with your Codex when you have one trick ponies and they don´t do that trick very well or at all.

Just look at the weapons...
You basically have only 2 weapons in the whole book. Lance and Poison.

[Archon Charybdis]

As for Talos and Grotesques i would say what are they even doing fighting normal troops? before hand these where the guys you threw against the elite the Terminators, Dreadnoughts etc etc.

Grotesques are pretty good at killing Termies provided they don't have some way of getting S10 (which admittedly is rare), but you know what else a colossal volume of S5 poison attacks is good for killing? Pretty much anything that's not a vehicle, which includes hordes of cheap crap and semi-elite units like SM or other Eldar. There's very few bad targets to point Grotesques at.

The Talos isn't a great choice against either Termies or Dreadnoughts though, and I wouldn't necessarily expect it to be at it's fairly low points cost. It's got a good WS to make the most of it's modest number of Attacks, and S just high enough to wound semi-elite infantry like Marines on 2's. It's pretty much tailored specifically for killing units of power armored guys and it really only needs to take care of one squad to earn it's points back.

[Charon]

Grotesques are pretty good at killing Termies provided they don't have some way of getting S10 (which admittedly is rare), but you know what else a colossal volume of S5 poison attacks is good for killing? Pretty much anything that's not a vehicle, which includes hordes of cheap crap and semi-elite units like SM or other Eldar. There's very few bad targets to point Grotesques at.

Grots have no "colossal volume" of poison attacks vs terminators. The majority comes from their Rampage rule which requires them to be outnumbered. Not gonna happen with termintors which come most often in squads of 5.
That means an amazing number of 20 attacks (if you are the one assaulting from your raider and you will need an IC as Ld3 is dangerous) which results in 1,5 dead terminators. A Ravager for mere 110 points is more effective.


The Talos isn't a great choice against either Termies or Dreadnoughts though, and I wouldn't necessarily expect it to be at it's fairly low points cost.

The fairly low points cost is 25 point higher than a dread for less attacks, less S and a lower BS.

[Archon Charybdis]

Grots have no "colossal volume" of poison attacks vs terminators. The majority comes from their Rampage rule which requires them to be outnumbered. Not gonna happen with termintors which come most often in squads of 5.
That means an amazing number of 20 attacks (if you are the one assaulting from your raider and you will need an IC as Ld3 is dangerous) which results in 1,5 dead terminators. A Ravager for mere 110 points is more effective.

4 Attacks stock with 5 on the charge is a colossal number of attacks, especially when comparable points to a 5 man TH/SS squad gets you 6 guys (with one extra from the Abberation). That's 25/31 Attacks, even without Rampage. Ld3 is only an issue if you're not running a Coven list to make them Fearless (in which case you really should be). But even if you include a Haemonculus--a comparable points worth of Grotesque/Haemy unit will still have enough attacks to likely kill 2 terminators, take maybe two wounds on a Grotesque in return, and then kill them over the course of another few rounds. Even if the termies get the charge, the Grots will still win out eventually.




The fairly low points cost is 25 point higher than a dread for less attacks, less S and a lower BS.

I think that's more of a statement on how GW wasn't selling enough Dread models than the Talos being bad. Also it's the same attacks with a better WS, unless you're taking a variant with two DCCWs. The Talos' gun is also TL-ed which makes it more accurate than the Dread's stock. There's also the significant advantage of having FNP and being an MC which means easy cover saves, all of which can make it quite a lot more durable against shooting.