How do GW decide points costs?

[angkor what?]

Me and upsidedowntortoise on kompletely kroot are just finalising our 7 th edition kroot codex and I wanted some input on how to cost various things. Is there any trends that we can see? Is there been any sort of study in this before?

Weapons and units are fairly easy but what about special rules and abilities? We've created lots of new stuff and rules and would like to know how to appropriately cost them, any info would be appreciated.

[Charon]

They had a point system back then where upgrades and special rules were priced according to their use to a certain unit.
Nowadays I guess they are just rolling random numbers for point costs.

[40kGamer]

My bet is that they are also quite drunk when they roll those dice. There is absolutely no systematic model behind what they do these days. As for special rules you can always make them formation specific... that way they are free. Sorry to be a bit cheeky but if you actually set the 7th edition codex releases side by side there is absolutely no discernible pattern.... It's truly madness with no method.

[angkor what?]

I thought we might get some of these responses lol.

So an example
If an item gave a unit of 10 fleet how much would it cost?

[Ben_S]

It usually depends whether they want to sell loads of a new model.

Are you releasing new Kroot models? If so, make them cheap (in points). If not, up their (points) cost to nerf.

[40kGamer]

I thought we might get some of these responses lol.

So an example
If an item gave a unit of 10 fleet how much would it cost?

Fleet is limited use on a S,T,I 3 model. Maybe 10 points?

[Fueldrop]

2d6 points, +1 per attribute above 3(or above 7 for leadership), +1 per point of armour save.

[daboarder]

It usually depends whether they want to sell loads of a new model.

Are you releasing new Kroot models? If so, make them cheap (in points). If not, up their (points) cost to nerf.

Caveat:

Is it a Dual Kit? If so one variant must suck and the other be a must take to facilitate the swicheroo next codex edition (so a year or less time)

[Mike X]

They had a point system back then where upgrades and special rules were priced according to their use to a certain unit.
Nowadays I guess they are just rolling random numbers for point costs.

I remember an interview with Jervis Johnson a few years ago where he says they tried to make a system for points costs but could never get it to work properly and so it was never actually used.

Edit: Come to think of it, it may've been Andy Chambers that said this. I can't remember which it was. But one of them said it, nonetheless.

[daboarder]

I remember an interview with Jervis a few years ago where he says they tried to make a system for points costs but could never get it to work properly and so it was never actually used.

shows how stupid and **** they are are games design then, most competitive online games NEED a similar system due to coding and many other table top games (infinity) use such a system. The fact taht GW thinks they couldnt do it is just a cop out

[Psychosplodge]

Wasn't the "standard unit" the guardsman with lasgun and everything else was costed relative to that?

[Path Walker]

There is no exact science to it, its not as simple as +1 T is 10 points, fleet is 10 points etc, as there are a lot of factors, some special rules compliment each other well, it depends on the position in the army, the rest of the units, units in other armies, potential load outs, there are hundreds of variables, the only way to get a good points cost (and idea of points values are rooted in RT as just an abstract system to try and balance opposing forces somewhat rather than the be all and end all ) is from play testing, trial and error and experience.

Online games have the advantage of being able to constantly tweak the balance of their units, so rather than the "points cost" they adjust the rules of the game to better balance. You think 40K has people complaining about balance then you've never been near a competitive online games forum.

[Alaric]

Online games have the advantage of being able to constantly tweak the balance of their units, so rather than the "points cost" they adjust the rules of the game to better balance. You think 40K has people complaining about balance then you've never been near a competitive online games forum.

Very true. Puter nerds invented online whining.

[Houghten]

Well, they could hardly invent offline whining, could they? The first lungfish beat them to it three billion years ago.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The problem with standardised points values is that they can be more or less valuable based on other stats. For example, give a Guardsman a Power Sword for 15pts. Woohoo! One WS3 I3 S3 attack now has AP3, for only 15pts.

Now give an Ogryn a Power Sword for 15pts. He's got three Attacks at WS4 and S5. Same cost, but one of them is clearly going to get more use out of it. IIRC, they had make-your-own points, but they couldn't cover all the bases even with the smaller scope the game had back then. I think there was an article about it on the front page.

Ultimately, just look for an equivalent model and judge it from there. Release it to the wild, await mewling accusations of cheese and weakness, distill into common complaints, then release an errata with amendments.

I.e., how everyone but GW seems to operate...

[Alaric]

Well, they could hardly invent offline whining, could they? The first lungfish beat them to it three billion years ago.

haha, they need an upvote button ;)

[Dave Mcturk]

was anticipating some humour here !

i think they rotate between the three principles in each codex.

some units are moved randomly up or down a d6 or a d10 in points

some units are nerfed or boosted depending on age of model or anticipated sales - i mean if they havent got any stock a nerf will work. newer shiny models will obviously get a nice point deduction.

and some units are carefully worked out from a secret formula that has been used since 2nd edition

[Xaric]

In fact points are done by a system based on stat lines and special rules also war gear you need to look at your most base unit and another unit that is slightly stronger and view the total points and divide them via % of each type as I said above to get the value of the unit.

For instance Harlequins the reason there so expensive for each model in a base troupe.

Troupe Master WS6 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv -
Player WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A2 Ld9 Sv -

Now a squad of these guys that is 5 min unit is 95 points per squad and to add each another player is 15 pts. so 4 x 15 = 60 that makes there leader 35 pts. on his own remember they all have the same special rule's and war gear before upgrade the only difference is there stat line so your paying 20 points for 1+ WS BS W I A and Ld. now depending on the value of effect in the game each stat applies can change its value I would say the lowest of the values would go in the following order starting from best at the top to worst at the bottom

Wound 7pts
Attack 4pts
Weapon skill / Ballistic skill 3pts each
Initiative 2pts
Leadership 1pts

This is just a rough guess to give you a view point on how by theory point cost vs. model comes into play.

(Sorry if I broke any rules per say but its more for example case with two model in a unit to give a reference point)

[Charon]

Kabalite Warrior - Sybarite:
Sybarite gets +1A, +1 Ld -> +10 points

Fire Dragon - Exarch
Exarch gets +1 BS, +1 WS, +1W, +1 I, +1A + additional special rule -> 10 points

Random.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tau Sergeant upgrades just give +1Ld and +1A, (on a Tau, haha.) Oh, and access to some occasionally useful upgrades.

[Fueldrop]

Tau Sergeant upgrades just give +1Ld and +1A, (on a Tau, haha.) Oh, and access to some occasionally useful upgrades.

The dice tell me that's a 12 point upgrade. They've never been wrong before!

[CoffeeGrunt]

The dice tell me that's a 12 point upgrade. They've never been wrong before!

The only time it's worth bothering with is on Crisis Suits, so you can give the Shas'vre Signature Systems.

[Path Walker]

Kabalite Warrior - Sybarite:
Sybarite gets +1A, +1 Ld -> +10 points

Fire Dragon - Exarch
Exarch gets +1 BS, +1 WS, +1W, +1 I, +1A + additional special rule -> 10 points

Random.

Its not random.

Kabilites and Fire Dragons aren't comparable units.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Its not random.

Kabilites and Fire Dragons aren't comparable units.

I think his point was that Eldar get an awful lot from their Sergeant upgrades compared to other armies.

[lobster-overlord]

Wasn't the "standard unit" the guardsman with lasgun and everything else was costed relative to that?

I don't know about 40k, but when they built fantasy, it was goblin-based. This unit was worth x number of goblins, so it equals x number of points.

[daboarder]

Kabalite Warrior - Sybarite:
Sybarite gets +1A, +1 Ld -> +10 points

Fire Dragon - Exarch
Exarch gets +1 BS, +1 WS, +1W, +1 I, +1A + additional special rule -> 10 points

Random.

Could be worse

Chaos: Mandatory suicidal, expensive squad champion whose Ld keeps the squad from crumbling

SM: Optional, non nessesary dude that does nothing thereby keeping the squad cost down

.....thanks GW