Why time travelers haven't fixed the 40K universe.

[Fueldrop]

Time travel exists in 40K. This is established Canon. And yes, that does include time travel to the past.

Now for the most part it's not very reliable, but it's hard to believe that at no point in the last 10,000 years has an imperial ship been washed into pre-heresy times by the tides of the warp. Granted they'd not know the first thing about how to actively start putting things right, but even their history of things to come would probably change the course of events if they reached the right ears.

So why hasn't this happened? Simple: My theory is that any time someone ends up going back far enough to change events for the better, Orikan the Diviner appears and kills them so they don't screw up his prophecies. Trillions of people die as a result, but he stays right and that's all that matters.

Is this theory complete BS? Maybe, maybe not. You be the judge!

[CoffeeGrunt]

One Imperial ship wouldn't know what time it was and the times are of legend even to the Space Marines. If an Ultramarines battle cruiser fell into existence in front of a fleet of Death Guard, for example, they'd probably assume them to be traitors.

[Denzark]

I wasn't aware of time travel per se - just that different parts of Eye of Terror, the Warp, and the Webways open an exit at a point before the linear point in realspace actually happened.

So, excepting the Warp, reliable imperials never enter the other 2 intentionally -or if they do, so rarely that their return to a previous temporal location can be guaranteed and not met with immense suspicion by imperials.

Mebbe Tzeentch owns all that shizzle?

[The Madman]

It's quite simply Multiverse theory; multiple versions of worlds (or in this case universes) for every impactful decision ever made by anyone ever. No matter what one does to the past, it won't change their future but will be an already existing future in another universe.

It's why I have a keen interest in the Dornian Heresy and the fan fic of a Tau dominated universe.

[Aldavaer]

There are several approaches to this;

1) Time is immutable, if you travel to the past you were already there and what you did is already reflected in the history you know.

2) Time resists change, any attempts to change it are resisted. You attempt to kill an assassin but you are jostled and it is your shot that kills the target etc.

3) Do you interfere at all? Can you know the long term effects of your action? would trying to correct something actually make matters worse in the future. I cannot remember the name of an OK film where the USS Enterprise (the modern nuclear powered aircraft carrier) goes back in time to just before Pearl Harbour. They have the power and knowledge to prevent the attack but should they? what would be the effect on WWII and history of Pearl Harbour not occurring? In the end if I remember they copped out and the carrier went back to the future before they could interfere.

[Tyrendian]

two main problems I see: why do you assume that
a) a random imperial merchant crew going back in time exactly the right amount would know squat about the Heresy? It's not like even the former Legions know all that much about it, except for the Wolves ('cause, you know, Bjorn was there...) and probably the Dark Angels ('cause, you know, SECRETS! YAY!)
b) anyone would believe even a single word of what they might say? I mean, Big Daddy E didn't even listen to his own son's concerns...

[lobster-overlord]

3) Do you interfere at all? Can you know the long term effects of your action? would trying to correct something actually make matters worse in the future. I cannot remember the name of an OK film where the USS Enterprise (the modern nuclear powered aircraft carrier) goes back in time to just before Pearl Harbour. They have the power and knowledge to prevent the attack but should they? what would be the effect on WWII and history of Pearl Harbour not occurring? In the end if I remember they copped out and the carrier went back to the future before they could interfere.

The move was FINAL COUNTDOWN and it was the USS Nimitz. They didn't cop out, they <spoiler removed by poster :-) > Go watch and enjoy a bad 80's film. It was the first Hollywood movie to feature the "modern" US Navy. Followed by Top Gun.

[Badtucker]

orks successfully traveled through time.

"The Ork Warlord Grigutz, a noted kleptomaniac, launched his WAAAGH! into the Morloq System in 978.M41. Whilst using Warp travel to reach their quarry, Grigutz and his warband unwittingly travelled through time and emerged from the shifting chaos of the Empyrean shortly before they had set off. Grigutz hunted down and killed his temporal doppleganger, reasoning that only in this way could he obtain a spare of his favourite gun. The resultant confusion stops the WAAAGH! in its tracks."

that was in the last ork codex... cant mind if its in the new one :)

[Nurglitch]

I have a theory that, since the Realm of Chaos, the Warp, exists beyond space and time (and yet contiguous with it), that 40k is actually a war over reality. They say as much in the First Heretic when the daemon scoffs at the notion of Humanity warring against heaven itself (which is kind of the idea with Space Marines). Which is why you get things like Slaanesh having been born into the Material Universe during the Fall, but having done so also always existing, because its 'birth' reflected a fundamental change in the fabric of reality once the Chaos God Slaanesh turned its attention to our reality.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, other than Orikan, it's done with the Warp.

I'd say the chaos gods do it for a laugh, hence no Imperial time travel history changing hi jinks,

[Aaron LeClair]

Could be that the Ordo Chronos was once more than a branch of the Inquisition and dates back to a time only the emperor would know do to him creating the group to protect the time line... But that's just crazy talk from me.

Anyways: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos

[Jmaximum]

Could be that the Ordo Chronos was once more than a branch of the Inquisition and dates back to a time only the emperor would know do to him creating the group to protect the time line... But that's just crazy talk from me.


Well, as we can all see, time travel is mostly a philosophical/theoretical conversation.
There has been mention of it multiple times in various 40K books, something to the effect that some ships, when travelling the warp, appear months after they were supposed to arrive, or before they even left their point of origin, etc. It's always mentioned in passing, though, never as a main plot hook. So according to 40K fluff, it may potentially be possible for a ship to leave in M41, and jump back to M-whenever.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannd a bunch of my colleagues distracted me, and I forgot where this was going. Nuts.

[Lunar Camel]

Actually they did go back in time. But they went to far and screwed up the fantasy world.

[Ravingbantha]

There are several approaches to this;

1) Time is immutable, if you travel to the past you were already there and what you did is already reflected in the history you know.

2) Time resists change, any attempts to change it are resisted. You attempt to kill an assassin but you are jostled and it is your shot that kills the target etc.

3) Do you interfere at all? Can you know the long term effects of your action? would trying to correct something actually make matters worse in the future. I cannot remember the name of an OK film where the USS Enterprise (the modern nuclear powered aircraft carrier) goes back in time to just before Pearl Harbour. They have the power and knowledge to prevent the attack but should they? what would be the effect on WWII and history of Pearl Harbour not occurring? In the end if I remember they copped out and the carrier went back to the future before they could interfere.

There are some other options:

4) Multiverse theory, by traveling back in time, you create a new universe, however the old one exists unchanged.

5) You can only change the details and not the outcomes, the HH was destined to happen, nothing can change that. But by going back you may change the players. Instead of the Horus Hersey you may end up with the Leman Hersey or the Corax Hersey

[Valkerie]

How do you know that what you're changing isn't actually bringing about the crisis itself? There have been more than a few stories where the protagonist's attempts to change history for the better actually created the problem in the first place. After all, since nobody really knows what happened and why, your appearing in the past may be the very thing that causes all the troubles.:)

[Spider-pope]

Because 40k is a fixed point in time, so it can't be changed. That or wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

[Jmaximum]

This going to get hairy....
Suppose you dd go back in time, and change something: would your memories reflect both knowing the world prior to the change AND knowing the world with the change? You are the same person, actively experiencing both, after all. This is fantastically demonstrated in Steven king's Dark Tower series (book1 or book2, I forgot. Somewhere in there.)

[0rph3u5]

Changes to the timeline in 40k might be a bit difficult because of the way the Chaos Gods are ... as Codex: Chaosdaemons reminds us about Slaanesh, the moment the Dark Prince began to exist, she always had existed

By extension this means that each Chaos God exist at least partially, if not completely uneffected but linear time, and any Time Traveler would have to account for that - which would require a understanding of Chaos which only the Eldar Harlequins are said to have and do not readily share

[Fueldrop]

Another heartening thought:

You know how there's that joke "law" of time travel that whenever you change the past you increase the chances of Germany having won world war 2?

What if every time you try to change the 40K universe for the better, you make things worse? What if the current 40K universe is the result of several iterations of people trying to make things better, only to send things further and further down the drain?

[Morgrim]

The sheer scale of the setting would make changing thing really hard too. Okay, so you're back in time before a major event. Great. Can you get to a suitable location in time, remembering how long travel takes? If yes, can you actually do anything to significantly change it? There were plenty of warnings in the early stages of the Horus Heresy and they were ignored. Seers canonically exist and tend to get shot/eaten/murdered fairly frequently. It does seem that the only reliable change one could carry out is going to be assassination of a target before they do [x], and the targets that have a major influence on a galactic scale tend to be really hard to kill.

[Psychosplodge]

I was there the day Horus won the war...

[CoffeeGrunt]

This is one of my personal favourite theories about time travel. You'd struggle to actually change anything, because every influential person in the world had a deputy. So someone else simply fills those boots and everything keeps rolling. If you try to change things without killing people, you get ignored as much as any other detractors, moreso because of your crazy claim that you're from the future.

Hell, the Chaos Gods might occasionally do this just for the sheer amusement of watch someone try and fail to even have an impact.

[Psychosplodge]

There is one explicit mention that I can think of of time travel in the conventional sci-fi sense, and I think its in a black library battles of the space marines book where they board a space hulk for archeotech, and it does give one reason in there.

[Jmaximum]

I was there the day Horus won the war...

Is that Oll Persson? Or a John Grammaticus quote?

[Psychosplodge]

Yes.

Though wasn't the original I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor?

[Houghten]

Yes, and it's neither of the Perpetuals, it's Garviel Loken. See Horus Rising, first chapter.

[Psychosplodge]

oops.

Yeah Horus Rising was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

long ago

[Jmaximum]

But............. Loken WASN'T there to see Horus slay the Emp - Loken was busy being a madman on Itssvan, and then got wrapped up in the fledgling Grey Knights.

[Psychosplodge]

Who's to say the fledgling grey knights weren't at the final battle?

[Houghten]

But............. Loken WASN'T there to see Horus slay the Emp - Loken was busy being a madman on Itssvan, and then got wrapped up in the fledgling Grey Knights.

I'd tell you more, but it'd be spoilery. Go read Horus Rising.

[Jmaximum]

I'd tell you more, but it'd be spoilery. Go read Horus Rising.

I did read it, way back. Perhaps I'm forgetting something.
Although, the final battle between the Emp and Horus seems to keep changing. I believe the original description was just Horus, dead Sanguinius, and the Emp on the bridge. Then in one of the later books, Oll Persson was added to it. Then regular guard were added, then Custodes, etc.

So please, spoilery away :)

[Psychosplodge]

It's down to individuals POV is all. The space marines seem to pay little attention at all to what normal humans are doing unless it directly affects them. There could have been a battalion of the imperial army troops stood on that bridge and it probably wouldn't be mentioned from any space marine retelling.

[Ravingbantha]

Perhaps all the changes from each version of a codex or rulebook it the changes made from time travelers. Maybe the 'missing' Dark Eldar characters were such a pain, someone went back and manipulated their time stream, to make them more 'administrative' and less 'hands on comabtive'. The 13th Black crusade was changed, because the loss of Eldrad was too much for Ulthwe to bear.