Graham McNeill off to Pastures New.

[Mr Mystery]

If you don’t want to read to the end, the short version is this: I’ve been offered – and have accepted – a job with Riot Games, the producer of the phenomenally successful League of Legends. Clan McNeill is moving to Los Angeles.

I’ve been chatting with Riot for a little while and now they’ve offered me the position of Senior Narrative Writer in their Los Angeles offices. So, yeah, in the summer we’re leaving Nottingham and the UK and relocating to sunny California in the US of A.

This wasn’t a decision we took lightly. I enjoyed the work I was doing, where I was doing it and the way life revolved around our kids, friends, family, work, school and all the usual happenings that make up the everyday. We had Evan and Amber to think of, our own jobs and our house, our friends and families. We liked having all that close, and the idea of making such a life-changing upheaval was very scary. Far easier just to maintain the status quo, eh? In short, we were comfortable, but sometimes you need to change things up, to step out of your comfort zone, and I think we were all at that stage.

I first spoke with Riot back in December. I went over for an informal chat, not really knowing what to expect, but going in with an open mind. The people I met there were fantastic; full of passion and enthusiasm for what they were doing, and I came away feeling I’d had a real meeting of minds with the spirit of Riot’s creative heart. These were people who thrived on the sheer joy of creativity, where every avenue could be explored to see where it went. I came away tremendously excited at the possibility of working within those teams.

We went back over to California as a family in February so everyone could see LA and Santa Monica, to find out if it was a place we could see ourselves living and working. It most definitely was. And my second meeting with the creative types in Riot more than confirmed my desire to work with them. Their attitude to the work and the potential for all it offers in the future is incredible, which makes me tremendously excited about being part of it.

After some long, serious, grown-up talks about making the move, Anita and I came to the conclusion that the opportunities for our family were too incredible to pass up. It’s a life-changing adventure that’s going to be exciting and challenging all at the same time. It’s the kind of chance we had to snatch with both hands, as it’s the kind that doesn’t come around more than once. And I’d hate to look back in years to come with any kind of regret for the chances we didn’t take. So with a mixture of giggling excitement and trepidation at the thought of stepping into this brave new world, we’re getting packed up and looking west to this fresh phase of our future.

Ah, but what does this mean for all things Warhammer…?

Well, first and foremost, I’m a writer, so I’m not going to stop writing books any more than I’m going to choose to stop breathing. I’m still working on my current Horus Heresy novel, The Crimson King (I’ve just handed in the first half…) and will continue to write for the Black Library. Clearly my output will diminish, what with having a full time, salaried day job, but I’ll still be keeping my hand in. I have stories of Uriel Ventris yet to tell and the Battle for Macragge isn’t going to write itself. And, having been involved with the Horus Heresy series since its very opening act, I’ll be damned if I’m not going to show up for its final dramas and its curtain calls. Expect the odd quick read or audio to pop up here and there too. In short, I’m still going to keep you entertained with grim tales from the 41st Millennium, the Horus Heresy and beyond.

So, there you have it. As the summer dawns, Clan McNeill will be living it in California. Wish us well, and I’ll continue to talk to you all on Twitter, Facebook and e-mail.

Cheers,

Graham


So he's off to California to sup up sun, sea, sand and salary.

But will continue to write for BL.

Yay!

[Kirsten]

wow, pretty amazing offer

[CoffeeGrunt]

At the risk of seeming a bit ignorant, I didn't realise League even had a narrative. Still, good to see opportunities are coming up for him! Really enjoying A Thousand Sons right now, and the news of another such book from Mr McNeill is very well-received here. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

Can't blame him for taking those particular reins.

Now, I have £5 that says the first page of this thread will contain at least one bonkers conspiracy theory about rats leaving a sinking ship and skulduggery behind the scenes :p

[Kirsten]

nobody is going to take that bet, it is guaranteed

[Erik Setzer]

League of Legends has a narrative, you just have to actually follow the game to know it. A lot of people, even the folks playing it, don't know all of WoW's narrative. Ditto for Warhammer, even.

But if you really want your mind blown, consider this: Magic: The Gathering has a narrative. It's a card game, where if you just look at the cards, you can't figure out what's what (i.e. why is Alesha red but one of her minions is black?), you have to dig into it and read the stories and novels. Kind of wish they'd put a better explanation of what's going on out there with each expansion, but they do have a clear story.

I have no "conspiracy theory" to offer. It's not evidence of a sinking ship that yet another person left, just evidence that the people who run Games Workshop don't value creative staff as much as other companies do. I doubt the people in the offices counting the money even realize how much a lot of gamers care about the story. Though, to be fair, right now you could throw any slop together on the pages and a lot of the current customers wouldn't care. Some would defend it, some would just carry on ignoring it as they throw together soul-crushing combo armies that make any semblance of fluff cry, and I don't just mean in the tournament scene. At that point, why pay top dollar for people to write story and make art when you can get less experienced people who are cheaper? It's just honest to say that Games Workshop these days is run by people who want to make money and aren't connected to the games they're selling. Other companies, like Riot, Blizzard, various miniatures games companies, are run by people who are very invested in the games and want to make them as good as possible, even if that means it might cut into the profits a little.

I don't feel like doing a whole debate on which way of doing things is "right," because that's all subjective. (If someone else wants to run with that, whatever, that's their right. But they'll be opening Pandora's Box again.)

[40kGamer]

Yep.

Can't blame him for taking those particular reins.

Now, I have £5 that says the first page of this thread will contain at least one bonkers conspiracy theory about rats leaving a sinking ship and skulduggery behind the scenes :p

My theory is the GW corporate environment isn't as creative person friendly as some may like.

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Also... can I take the bet and then fill the first page with bunny pictures for the win?

[Mr Mystery]

Or he's been offered a good salary in a nice sunny place, and considers it the best move for his family.

You know.

Like the article, written by Graham McNeill says?

He's still going to be producing stuff for GW/BL.

And if I'm correct in thinking, BL works via freelance writers.

About the only author I can think of that took a new job and no longer writes for BL/GW at all is Nathan Long, and that's due to the T&C's of a book deal he has.

As for Erik.....I totes claim my £5!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That's fine, though, because he was a freelance writer and not part of GW's "corporate environment" anyway. Try another tack. ;)

Good for McNeill. He's not my favourite of the Black Library stable, but he's obviously doing something right to land this gig. I wish him and his family well.

[Mr Mystery]

I really like his stuff.

He wrote 'Storm of Iron', and that book rocks massive 'nads! It's the reason I played Iron Warriors.

Though fave BL author remains C L Werner.

[Arkhan Land]

My theory is the GW corporate environment isn't as creative person friendly as some may like.

nah hes just tryn to get a scription out in cali for that chronic

[40kGamer]

Or he's been offered a good salary in a nice sunny place, and considers it the best move for his family.

You know.

Like the article, written by Graham McNeill says?

He's still going to be producing stuff for GW/BL.

And if I'm correct in thinking, BL works via freelance writers.

About the only author I can think of that took a new job and no longer writes for BL/GW at all is Nathan Long, and that's due to the T&C's of a book deal he has.

As for Erik.....I totes claim my £5!

Possibly... but almost everyone crafts politically correct public announcements so they don't carry a lot of weight.

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Curse you Erik! Costing me a 5 spot. :p

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nah hes just tryn to get a scription out in cali for that chronic

Cali is a gorgeous place to live! Although LA would not be my personal choice.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

He didn't work for Games Workshop, guys, he was freelance. That's why there's all the talk in his press release about a salaried job.

[40kGamer]

I really like his stuff.

He wrote 'Storm of Iron', and that book rocks massive 'nads! It's the reason I played Iron Warriors.

Though fave BL author remains C L Werner.

It's hard to nail down my fave writer from BL. Werner and McNeil are both in the conversation. Although I'm also a fan of Abnett & King too... so much talent!

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He didn't work for Games Workshop, guys, he was freelance. That's why there's all the talk in his press release about a salaried job.

I don't think any of the BL writers work for GW proper do they?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Abnett and Dembski-Bowden, personally. I did enjoy Vengeful Spirit quite a lot, so it's not that I don't like McNeill at all.

The point about him being freelance is it's hard to make claims about being negatively impacted by a bad "corporate environment" when you're not actually part of it day to day.

[40kGamer]

Abnett and Dembski-Bowden, personally. I did enjoy Vengeful Spirit quite a lot, so it's not that I don't like McNeill at all.

Crap! I forgot Dembski-Bowden. Another solid choice!

[Mr Mystery]

Not that big a fan of Abnett. I find various of his books difficult to get into. I guess I just prefer my fiction a little more pulpy.

Ciaphas Cain remains their besterest character evar though.

[40kGamer]

Not that big a fan of Abnett. I find various of his books difficult to get into. I guess I just prefer my fiction a little more pulpy.

Ciaphas Cain remains their besterest character evar though.

Super Crap! I need my morning coffee. No way I should have forgot Sandy Mitchell! The Ciaphas Cain books are awesome fun to read! Amazing character development and stories in them. McNeil has a good consistency to his works. Abnett is definitely more hit and miss. Sometimes great like "Eisenhorn" other times not so much.

[Erik Setzer]

As for Erik.....I totes claim my £5!

Since I didn't claim the ship was sinking and rats are leaving it, just that another company valued creativity more than GW's managers, you didn't win the bet. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir!

[40kGamer]

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/2/29/Bunny1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100405155823

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Nuts.... still too many posts left before filling the front page!

[Austin Becht]

Ciaphas Cain remains their besterest character evar though.

CAIN FOR THE WIN! Those books are my personal favorite if the Black Library stuff I've read.

Can't say I've read and of McNiel's stuff, but I plan to get through some of it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Since I didn't claim the ship was sinking and rats are leaving it, just that another company valued creativity more than GW's managers, you didn't win the bet. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir!

Oooooor, he moved to somewhere with a solid salary rather than freelance work. This is extremely common. You can get mortgages much easier on a salary, for example.

[Erik Setzer]

Oooooor, he moved to somewhere with a solid salary rather than freelance work. This is extremely common. You can get mortgages much easier on a salary, for example.

But the point still remains that if GW valued him as much as Riot apparently does, they'd have made him a salaried employee.

However, I'm not even seeing any mention in there of whether he was salaried or not. Seems people assume he was freelance just because he'll continue to work on stuff, when it's possible he was salaried and is just changing his arrangement with GW to better suit his changing to a new employer, so that he can continue to work on projects he'd had on deck and get paid for them.

McNeill started as a staff writer at GW. He used to work on rules, even. I don't see that being "freelance" work, especially when he talks about how he was "hired" to do articles, then it moved onto rules. So if being salaried is better than freelancing, why would he have changed from salary to freelance? And why would he leave a salaried position at GW just to take a non-salaries position at GW, when they could just change his title?

[Mr Mystery]

Except BL don't have salaried authors it would seem.

And, here's the funny bit....he's still going to be writing for BL.

You raised a slightly bizarre point about how it's always better to hire experienced people over new blood. That's patent nonsense. Every single great writer has started out a untested new blood. If no publishing house gave new writers a shot, the book world would be without many great novels and series (like, you know, Harry Potter).....though I'll grant you it would have prevented Stephanie Meyer and E L James peddling utter tripe, so not always a good approach.

Just had a quick long range squizz at one of my book cases....Dan Abnett - experienced author. Mike Lee - experienced author. C L Werner - experienced author. Nick Kyme - GW home grown. Gav Thorpe - GW home grown. Sandy Mitchell - GW home grown. Graham McNeill - GW home grown.

All very competent authors. Some came with experience, some nOoBs at the time.

As someone gains experience, and in the case of Graham McNeill wins quite a few awards, they will naturally attract the attention of other companies. Only takes a single generous offer, and they're off. Now, granted I'm not an author, but I am very good at what I do. My technical knowledge is strong, my view writing is coming along leaps and bounds. I'm good with customers, complainants, businesses and colleagues. I am also very happy in my job. But hey, guess what would happen if someone offered me a similar position, with the same generous benefits and a larger salary? My current employer wouldn't see me for dust, especially if I could wangle a job working from home, no matter where I chose to live.

So yeah, totes claiming my £5!

[40kGamer]

So yeah, totes claiming my £5!

I really should have been faster releasing the bunny pic flood. :p

[BrianDavion]

Just because Mcneil is a freelancer doesn't mean he's not valued. novel writers in that position are freelance, that's how the industry works. the number of writers whom have a salary is proably pretty damned low. here's the thing, McNeil's new job is NOT a novel writing job. (indeed if he produces a LoL novel chances are it'll be a free lance job seperate from his role) rather his job is a staff position of overseeing the greater storyline. Basicly his job is gonna be very differnt from his job writing novels for GW

[madlib]

Abnett and Dembski-Bowden, personally. I did enjoy Vengeful Spirit quite a lot, so it's not that I don't like McNeill at all.

The point about him being freelance is it's hard to make claims about being negatively impacted by a bad "corporate environment" when you're not actually part of it day to day.

Abnett and ADB are the best BL writers by far.

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Not that big a fan of Abnett. I find various of his books difficult to get into. I guess I just prefer my fiction a little more pulpy.

Ciaphas Cain remains their besterest character evar though.

Yeah, some of Abnett's stuff is less pulpy and more cerebral. You could say the same for a few other BL authors too though. Rob Sanders comes to mind. I personally like a little depth with my pulp.

[daboarder]

Mitchel (Ciahpas Cain) Has to be my favourite.

Even his books that are not tongue in cheek (read the scourge the heretic and its sequel) are wonderful. Its such a shame that the IP legallity tanked that series (it was based on the FFG RPG background)

[Denzark]

I think its appropriate here to mention his comment about 'turning up for the final chapter'. Whilst we know for a fact GW will make the assault on Earth last 34 books and 18 SE novellas (Book 33 - Kharn takes his last dump before the assault on the palace) the key for me is who will write the Emp/Horus confrontation. I think you have to struggle to beat the Bill King piece in RoC - Lost and the Damned.

If MacNeil is turning up for the final chapter, will him and Abnett tag team the last bit like Prospero etc?

[daboarder]

The lemartes piece about the clash of Sanguinius in the BA 3rd ed book is also an epic piece of work

[Houghten]

(Book 33 - Kharn takes his last dump before the assault on the palace)

They're bringing Ian Watson back?

[Psychosplodge]

Mitchel (Ciahpas Cain) Has to be my favourite.

Even his books that are not tongue in cheek (read the scourge the heretic and its sequel) are wonderful. Its such a shame that the IP legallity tanked that series (it was based on the FFG RPG background)

Details? Are we not having anymore Cain?

[benn grimm]

Really happy for Mr. McNeill. I think when you have the success he has enjoyed within a very specific field it must be very easy to just sit back and enjoy the 'comfortable life' as he alludes to. Takes cojones to take your family half way across the world and do something new with all the massive risk that entails.

Equally happy to hear he'll still be contributing to the Black Library and excited for the Crimson King (wonder who that ones about...;)) Strom of Iron was my first 40k favourite and possibly will always be, though Thousand Sons came pretty close. I think of the remaining writers left Abnett is probably the most technically accomplished and well regarded, ADB strikes me as the guy with the greatest love for the setting and is proving himself every bit the equal of older guys; the Night Lords series and Talon of Horus were fantastic. Nick Kyme should stick to what he does best, type setting, proof reading or whatever it is that he actually does well and avoid at all costs writing about Space Marines, which he really sucks at.

[Mr Mystery]

Details? Are we not having anymore Cain?

I think he's meaning the Dark Heresy set novels.

Though puzzled as to how IP legality tanked it - GW own the IP, it's just licensed to FFG?

[Psychosplodge]

Are they the ones not set with the regiment?

[Houghten]

They're the ones that have nothing to do with Cain at all.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Scourge-the-Heretic.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Innocence-Proves-Nothing.html

[daboarder]

I think he's meaning the Dark Heresy set novels.

Though puzzled as to how IP legality tanked it - GW own the IP, it's just licensed to FFG?

It was the specifics of hlthe liscencing agreement or some such. And you can doubt me all you want but that information is from ADB and mitchel themselves as they post on BnC

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Are they the ones not set with the regiment?
No they are the inquisition books
Completely different approach to cain. Its a bit more of a hardcore look at 40k. I was even liking them more than eisenhorn and ravenor

[Psychosplodge]

Sorry I misread the initial post you meant mitchell's books, not cain's books :rolleyes:
I should have realised from the titles.

[madlib]

Nick Kyme should stick to what he does best, type setting, proof reading or whatever it is that he actually does well and avoid at all costs writing about Space Marines, which he really sucks at.

I don't think he absolutely sucks at it. He has his moments, though for the most part he's just mediocre. James Swallow comes to mind too. Not terrible, just mediocre.

[Psychosplodge]

There's no evidence anybody within the GW organisation across all the published materials is capable of proof reading.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't think he absolutely sucks at it. He has his moments, though for the most part he's just mediocre. James Swallow comes to mind too. Not terrible, just mediocre.

I read Fear To Tread and Flight of the Esienstein by James Swallow. I enjoyed both for the story they told, but they weren't quite on the level of Betrayer or Know No Fear, IMO.

Can we at least praise the Emperor that CS Goto no longer writes for them, at least? :P

[Psychosplodge]

Who?

(I thought we'd agreed to pretend he doesn't exist?)

[Houghten]

I read Fear To Tread and Flight of the Esienstein by James Swallow. I enjoyed both for the story they told, but they weren't quite on the level of Betrayer or Know No Fear, IMO.

I can never understand when people say things like this. They were both books, they both had words in, they both told a story; what is it about that specific arrangement of words that makes one superior to the other? What is this transcendent level of enjoyment I'm completely missing out on whenever I read?

Make no mistake, I'm not a "not a reader." I read like drunkards drink. But I'm definitely not seeing something you're seeing, something that makes a book bad or good instead of just "it was a book."

[Mr Mystery]

Ditto.

It's like when people bash Mat(t?) Ward. Many saying he's a poor writer, but never why.

Me, I really rather enjoyed Fear to Tread. Well paced, lots of fun with an appropriate amount of silliness suiting 40k. Kind of helps that when Sanguinius has his Bishop Brennan 'he did kick me up the arse!' moment, Iron Maiden's 'The Fallen Angel' started playing...perfect song for that part!

[CoffeeGrunt]

I can never understand when people say things like this. They were both books, they both had words in, they both told a story; what is it about that specific arrangement of words that makes one superior to the other? What is this transcendent level of enjoyment I'm completely missing out on whenever I read?

Make no mistake, I'm not a "not a reader." I read like drunkards drink. But I'm definitely not seeing something you're seeing, something that makes a book bad or good instead of just "it was a book."

I'm not understanding your point - are you claiming that qualitative disparities in writing don't exist? One can read Twilight, for example, and see the clumsy/dull characterisation in comparison to other books, or Tolkien's over-descriptive nature that sometimes bogs down the pacing. In contrast, Douglas Adams segue-ing made for funny little asides that gave the book more of a chit-chat feel.

Arguing that they're just, "arrangements of words," is like arguing everything is just, "arrangements of atoms." Yes, they are, but that arrangement can make all the difference in the world.

ADB manages to make more interesting characters, in my experience. Characters like Lotara, Angron and even Lorgar when written by him are more nuanced, more three-dimensional. The plot is primarily driven by character action, (Lorgar nudging Angron back to Nuceria, Angron being angry, Kharn fighting between his incomprehensible rage and his duties.)

Swallow is still a good writer, but Fear To Tread was a lot more, "hey stuff's happening and characters are reacting to it." I dunno, it's a complex thing to explain.


It's like when people bash Mat(t?) Ward. Many saying he's a poor writer, but never why.

Overpowered Mary Sues being more overpowered than previous written Mary Sues. "Ultramarines are the BESTEST SPEHS MAUREENS! Now Grey Knight are EVEN BESTERERERESTER! DRAIGO IS LYK STRONGER THAN THE CHAOS GODSS!!!!!" Not to mention that horrible excerpt with the Sisters as a blood sacrifice. The Necrons I'll give him a pass on, my main issue is that he was like a kid playing a game and how his guy had the bestest armour and a kill-in-one-shot supergun and you can't beat them cos he's a superhero too and my dad is better than your dad...

[Mr Mystery]

Still better to attempt to quantify :)

Good example? Terry Pratchett (who recently left us early, to avoid the rush).

I absolutely adore his books. They're utterly, utterly brilliant. A wry wit married to a talent for character development, wrapped up in an undeniable humanity.

Favourite character for me? Sam Vimes. Vimes has been through a lot of character development. From a gin soaked leader of a handful of incompetent Watchman, you can follow his personal journey. And in every book, we learn a little bit more about him. In his earlier novels, his chief underlings Nobby Nobbs (who carries a card to prove he's actually human) and Fred Colon live in perpetual fear of Vimes going spare. Now, in English vernacular, to go spare is to properly lose it and go completely tonto in anger. Yet it's not for several years and the events of Thud! that we actually get to see Vimes going spare - and it's an absolute joy to read, made all the more so for the motivation behind it - let's just say, Young Sam very nearly made me reconsider my stance on fatherhood!

I can read the Discworld series over and over and over. To me they are the best books ever written by a country mile.

Yet, although many would agree with me, this is not a universal thing. Many just can't get on with them. And that's fair enough. Doesn't detract from Pratchett's undeniable talent, but shows everyone wants different things.

[Houghten]

I'm not understanding your point - are you claiming that qualitative disparities in writing don't exist?
No, if I were claiming that I'd have said that. They're clearly real enough for you to react to them. I'm saying I can't understand or even notice them, and it leaves me wondering what reading is like for you.


One can read Twilight, for example, and see the clumsy/dull characterisation in comparison to other books, or Tolkien's over-descriptive nature that sometimes bogs down the pacing.
Not this one.


I dunno, it's a complex thing to explain.
Yeah, that's where this usually ends up...

[Psychosplodge]

Breaking dawn is literally the worst book I've ever read.

Reading for me engages my imagination to the point where I can literally lose several hours to a book, and be completely unaware of people speaking to me. I notice books where this doesn't happen.
Books where its an effort to finish them, or I don't think "just one more page" or "one more chapter" when I know I need to stop reading.

[Aldavaer]

As an avid reader across many genres I will have a go and add to Psychosplodge's comment

Some books draw me in, I find it difficult to put them down, I care about the characters, I desperately want to know what happens. I will reread them and notice little details I missed the first time. They suspend your disbelief and you accept events as described. In reading you are almost in a mental virtual reality. To my mind this is why great books are difficult to turn into films, because the director has to encompass everyone's mental image of the book.

Other books are Ok I will read them and never go back to them. you start to question events, that was silly or that would never happen, they get between you and the book.

The worst are where it is an effort to finish them and it becomes a chore;, thankfully these are few and far between.

[CoffeeGrunt]

No, if I were claiming that I'd have said that. They're clearly real enough for you to react to them. I'm saying I can't understand or even notice them, and it leaves me wondering what reading is like for you.

Like a dissonant note in an otherwise enjoyable song.

[benn grimm]

Good or bad is too much of an oversimplification, better writers generally explore their craft in more depth; ie using personal interpretations of lesser known narrative devices, experimenting with layout, structure and language norms etc. Being a good judge of your audience, research, characterization, a healthy degree of originality in subject, perspective and style are all really important for good writing I would say.

I think its easy to confuse personal taste with good or bad also, I hated 1984 and Gormenghast, and loved Gullivers Travels and Flashman, more due to the subject matter and atmosphere created than level of writing talent or intellectual weight of the material. I think consensus is what elevates literature from being merely a good read to so called 'high literature', a consensus of the intellectual elite, not really popular opinion, which is mostly the basis of modern attempts to quantify success. As such, all sci-fi tie-in stuff is low literature, by the definition of being popular.

Why is ADB better than Kyme or Swallow or Josh Reynolds or any of these other, not terrible, but not that great writers? Personally I think its love/passion for the subject matter, but that's just a hunch, mostly it comes down to pacing, characterization and research. And you only really notice it when it's absent; I read pretty bad warhammer books for years before I discovered McNeill and Abnett and enjoyed them anyway because they were about the thing I wanted to read about; 40k. Having read the better examples of how its done its hard to go back to the less accomplished. I can only read so much bolter porn in a year, so I might as well just sample the very finest quality bolter porn...;)

[Erik Setzer]

One of the strangest experiences I've ever had with reading was with Dan Brown's novels. The guy can tell an interesting story, but his writing can be very sloppy. It's forgiven because the story is compelling enough you want to press on.

Meanwhile, Robert Ludlum writes compelling stories that are tightly written. So I suppose you could argue Ludlum's books are better. (I enjoyed them more, yes, but likely because I was so excited to come across books where there was action but the main character wasn't invincible and actually acted like a human.)

The Star Wars universe can really show off how different people can write, both in terms of the type of story they tell, and how they describe the story. My favorite is Michael Stackpole, especially the X-Wing series. Kevin J. Anderson had some good stories, mostly set in the Tales of the Jedi series, but he still had some slip-ups.

The variety of authors is probably one of the things that bogged me down on the Horus Heresy series. The first three books I found pretty interesting. Started trying to read Flight of the Eisenstein, which I think I'd find interesting given that event's importance in the 40K narrative, but the first dozens or scores of pages of the book are a plodding description of some invasion of an alien ship, without really explaining why the Space Marines are attacking (other than "they're not human") or why we should even care (other than, I suppose, to set up the Death Guard's reverence for Mortarion). I haven't been able to get further into the book because it just felt like I was churning through pointless filler, that might interest someone who wants to read about random space battles, but I'd rather have a book that's only 200 pages and focuses on the important events.

I like some of Dan Abnett's stuff, but the Gaunt's Ghosts series dulled on me quickly because he seemed to want to make the stakes bigger by killing a bunch of the Ghosts, but somehow they never really reflected it in numbers, after taking more than a regiment's worth of casualties. They had to explain it away by merging other regiments with them, I understand, but I'd rather he just didn't try for something so cheap. And while it might explain this later in the books if I'd tried to slug my way through them, I don't get the whole thing with saying "We'll give you the first planet you help conquer" and then they always seem to get screwed on it because people hate the Ghosts just because, well, the story needs tension, darn it! Fine, okay, I get that giving them a planet might make it hard to keep sending them on "high stakes" missions with dwindling numbers, but why write that into the novels in the first place?

Basically, every writer's got a different style, some are clearly better than others (Ludlum is miles above Stephanie Meyer, for example), and most writers have some flaw with their stories you can find.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Douglas Adams is probably my favourite writing style, because it sounds like he's recounting a tale over a pint at the pub. It's very informal, casual, and descriptive in witty, unusual ways. Not to mention the segues into other matters. A lot of people hate it because it feels inconsistent, which is fair, but I personally loved every book of his I read. Johnathan Stroud's Bartimaeus Trilogy is probably my all-round favourite book trilogy though. Interesting setting, excellently-realised world, and compelling characters who undergo some real growth over the trilogy. It's a book series I would love to see in movie form, because with the right style and director I think it'd be stellar.

I can't really think of a book or an author's work that I simply couldn't read. Karen Traviss was a tough read, because while she managed to get decent characters into the Kilo-Five Trilogy, it felt incredibly stretched. (Three books that could be summarised with the two phrases, "Halsey is a b**** and the author hates her," and, "we swear, the Pious Inquisitor will be relevant any minute now!" It was interesting to see the post-war state of the galaxy in the Halo universe, but it wasn't an amazing series.)

The other one was Greg Bear's Forerunner Trilogy, now I think about it. It was so ephemeral, nothing really felt properly described so that I could keep track of what's going on. It was a combination of loads of Forerunner jargon, awkward descriptions and a bit too much dialogue at times. It was also a bit tedious because very little of consequence happened.

[Haighus]

I feel the Kilo-Five trilogy started well, I enjoyed the first book a lot, then the second book was... equal parts interesting, with the Elite shenanigans being both plausible and interesting IMO, with a nice insight into Elite culture. Particularly liked the clash between pragmatism and religion. But then the second book is also where all the Halsey-hate comes in big time, and it really just feels stupid, and a bit false. Then book 3 I read just to finish the plot arc and connect it up to Halo 4, and it was waay more of a chore. Halsey-hate reached it's irrational high, and for some reason Blue team was completely absent from the book despite being some of the more interesting characters of the other two. Maybe because they actually liked Halsey. I don't know, I feel like there is an over the top reaction to Halsey. What she did was wrong, yet it also saved Humanity. They seem to entirely forget by the last book that they would not even be in existence to discuss Halsey's fate without what she did. Also barely anything mentioned about what happens to that important rebel Elite, but anyway.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I feel the Kilo-Five trilogy started well, I enjoyed the first book a lot, then the second book was... equal parts interesting, with the Elite shenanigans being both plausible and interesting IMO, with a nice insight into Elite culture. Particularly liked the clash between pragmatism and religion. But then the second book is also where all the Halsey-hate comes in big time, and it really just feels stupid, and a bit false. Then book 3 I read just to finish the plot arc and connect it up to Halo 4, and it was waay more of a chore. Halsey-hate reached it's irrational high, and for some reason Blue team was completely absent from the book despite being some of the more interesting characters of the other two. Maybe because they actually liked Halsey. I don't know, I feel like there is an over the top reaction to Halsey. What she did was wrong, yet it also saved Humanity. They seem to entirely forget by the last book that they would not even be in existence to discuss Halsey's fate without what she did. Also barely anything mentioned about what happens to that important rebel Elite, but anyway.

Jul M'dama appears in the Spartan Ops campaign, it's likely he'll be an antagonist in Guardians as 343 is working to actually mesh the Expanded Universe in with the game series itself, unlike Bungie. I agree that the insight into Sangheili culture was interesting as well as ONI's plan to bleed the Covenant remnants dry in an artificial civil war. However that got dropped, Blue Team ignored and we got a third book of Halsey hate and bumbling around that Insurrectionist planet.

[Haighus]

Yeah, I knew about his Halo 4 appearance, but it seems to jump from him appearing on that random planet to suddenly being in charge of an entire fleet in 4 years or something. Thought a little more of that gap could have been bridged in the third book, but like you said, the third book was really the most disappointing one, and missed lots of opportunities.

[madlib]

I read Fear To Tread and Flight of the Esienstein by James Swallow. I enjoyed both for the story they told, but they weren't quite on the level of Betrayer or Know No Fear, IMO.

Can we at least praise the Emperor that CS Goto no longer writes for them, at least? :P

Agreed.

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I'm not understanding your point - are you claiming that qualitative disparities in writing don't exist? One can read Twilight, for example, and see the clumsy/dull characterisation in comparison to other books, or Tolkien's over-descriptive nature that sometimes bogs down the pacing. In contrast, Douglas Adams segue-ing made for funny little asides that gave the book more of a chit-chat feel.

Arguing that they're just, "arrangements of words," is like arguing everything is just, "arrangements of atoms." Yes, they are, but that arrangement can make all the difference in the world.

ADB manages to make more interesting characters, in my experience. Characters like Lotara, Angron and even Lorgar when written by him are more nuanced, more three-dimensional. The plot is primarily driven by character action, (Lorgar nudging Angron back to Nuceria, Angron being angry, Kharn fighting between his incomprehensible rage and his duties.)

Swallow is still a good writer, but Fear To Tread was a lot more, "hey stuff's happening and characters are reacting to it." I dunno, it's a complex thing to explain.


Very well stated. You hit the nail on the head.

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No, if I were claiming that I'd have said that. They're clearly real enough for you to react to them. I'm saying I can't understand or even notice them, and it leaves me wondering what reading is like for you.



You can't understand or notice qualitative disparities in writing? So you can't tell the difference between a nobel laureate and a 15 yr old fan fiction writer? Lol, wow.

[daboarder]

Ditto.

It's like when people bash Mat(t?) Ward. Many saying he's a poor writer, but never why.


Because he writes terrible background that is over heavy on the cliches, does not mesh with the previously established background, has two dimensional characters where the good guys are superman and hte bad guys are a swarm of bugs on a windshield, uses unrealistic numbers, and is prone to write about how awesome mcawesome sauce unit x was the only thing to win the battle that day because it is awesome mcawesome sauce


as to Swallow, its interesting, before Fear to Tread he was largely universally disliked by BA fans as his previous attempts to write them failed to capture the character of the chapter and also made them look like a bunch of numpties.

But fear to tread was an AMAZING book, very well written. It may be because non of the HH novels are written in a vacuum by an individual author (they are checked and worked on by a group collective according to ADB) but whatever it is I hope it continues.

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I'm not understanding your point - are you claiming that qualitative disparities in writing don't exist? One can read Twilight, for example, and see the clumsy/dull characterisation in comparison to other books, or Tolkien's over-descriptive nature that sometimes bogs down the pacing. In contrast, Douglas Adams segue-ing made for funny little asides that gave the book more of a chit-chat feel.

Arguing that they're just, "arrangements of words," is like arguing everything is just, "arrangements of atoms." Yes, they are, but that arrangement can make all the difference in the world.

ADB manages to make more interesting characters, in my experience. Characters like Lotara, Angron and even Lorgar when written by him are more nuanced, more three-dimensional. The plot is primarily driven by character action, (Lorgar nudging Angron back to Nuceria, Angron being angry, Kharn fighting between his incomprehensible rage and his duties.)

Swallow is still a good writer, but Fear To Tread was a lot more, "hey stuff's happening and characters are reacting to it." I dunno, it's a complex thing to explain.



Overpowered Mary Sues being more overpowered than previous written Mary Sues. "Ultramarines are the BESTEST SPEHS MAUREENS! Now Grey Knight are EVEN BESTERERERESTER! DRAIGO IS LYK STRONGER THAN THE CHAOS GODSS!!!!!" Not to mention that horrible excerpt with the Sisters as a blood sacrifice. The Necrons I'll give him a pass on, my main issue is that he was like a kid playing a game and how his guy had the bestest armour and a kill-in-one-shot supergun and you can't beat them cos he's a superhero too and my dad is better than your dad...

....all of this, yeah all of it

[lohnpondai]

Phew.... For a second when I saw this thread I thought he was leaving the Horus Heresy novel series...

Its great to know he'll stil be writing for the series. :) I wish him the best in this new professional stage! I wouldnt think too much @ conspiracy theories. He was offered a more attractive, perhaps better-paid/more-rewarding, job and he took it. As we would all. Good for Riot Games, bad for GW to lose such a talented guy.