How would you fix the weakest codex?

[Gridlock]

Every conversation I see on 40 codices certain armies ALWAYS comes up as being on the *** end of the spectrum, in such a way that it almost doesn´t matter how good or bad the player is, unless the other players are extremely unlucky and/or the player is extremely lucky certain armies will never get in first in the tournaments.
At least they won´t get into first place or close to unless they bulk up on allies.
Now while o have nothing against allies I don´t like the way that they need to be alpha omega for certain armies in order to win, to me allies should be flavor only, sure they can offer some fun game mechanics, but in the end your army should be able to fight and possibly win it all on its own two feet.

So let´s say GW hired you to re-write the rules of the one codex you thought was the weakest and bring it up to a point where it could actually win tournaments on its own.
And just to be clear here I am talking tournaments with no limits at all if the rules say you can do it, you can do it, so your army will have to be one that can stand up to every death star list out there and have a reasonable chance of beating it.

So which codex would you improve and how?

With me it would be Dark Eldar main because it´s what I play.

Now the Dark Eldar as I understand them is the fast scalpel, the thousand cuts army that will bleed an opponent to death rather than finishing it off instantly.
So a Dark Eldar army should have two things in my mind weapons that can slowly peel off the enemy’s armor and be the fastest army there is.
The moment a Dark Eldar army stands still they die, because in exchange for speed they have sacrificed their armor to such a degree that even a Imperial guard last gun can be deadly for them.

Here´s what I would change with the Dark Eldar:
Now for the sake disclosure I don´t have huge experience on tournament and the system I have most experience with is Fantasy, so most suggestion on improvements are from what I have read on the internet:

While each kind unit has a fixed amount of movement I would add 1d6 to that movement, the dice roll is final and can´t be re-rolled.
The only exception should be Dark Eldar Reavers which not only get the 2d6 roll any Eldar Jetbike does, but also has the option of re-rolling one of the dices.

All Dark Eldar units would have a 5+ Feel no pain from the beginning.

All Dark Eldar units should have the Fleet special rule.

Power from Pain is the same as in the Heamonculus Coven.

Also the Dark Eldar has a special rule that means in close combat they always strike first no matter what, against other Dark Eldar players roll a d6 the one who gets the highest strikes first.
While I am no fan of removing overwatch or directly nullifying it, i´m looking at you Eldar Banshees, I do think it should be remodeled for Dark Eldar on account of them having virtually no armor.
Dark Eldar Whyces and Incubi should on account of their speed for any unit to roll a 1d6, on a 1 and 2 the unit is not allow to overwatch, on a 3 and 4 they do so but at half BS and on a 5 and 6 they fire overwatch like normal.

Mandrakes are described as being able to emerge from any shadow slice the throat of their victim before sliding back into the shadows again.
Sounds almost like what the Eldar Warp spiders are able to do, so make Mandrakes able to do the same.
Able to teleport around the board and gear them for hit and run close combat.

Change the Dark Lance abilities so it mimics the thousand cut analogy.
For each hit that doesn´t destroy the Target it give it -1 to its armor save.
It could be like this 1st hit nothing happens, 2nd hit -1 to armor save, 3rd hit -2 armor save and so on and so forth till it´s reduced to only be able to manage a save on a 6+
In fluff terms it could be described as the Dark Eldar able the hit the same spots over and over again and each time remove a little amount of the armor till almost nothing is left.

Grotesques have the same abilities as Dark Lance slightly modified 2 hits are needed before they get the same effect.
I imagine in fluff terms it could be described as the Grotesques beating at the same spot constantly till broke through was able to tear open the hull and get to the crew.

Also Raiders and Venoms should have the special rule Fleet of foot or something like that that makes it so that if the Raider or Venom is destroyed, the crew will only be wounded on a 6+
In exchange if you do hit that 6+ no saves of any kind is allowed, neither feel no pain or It will not die.

[Reldane]

I can understand a lot of your points with regards to allies and how certain books have become so dependent on them to function in a competitive environment. However speaking from a game balance perspective, whilst you have asymmetrical armies, you are never going to have a situation where having allies isn't going to increase the available options. more options is invariably more powerful for example: wairthguard (a strong unit, from arguably the strongest codex) with a Archon with webway portal and a shadow field makes the unit a lot more durable and allows it to deep strike to where exactly where it wants to be. The only way to balance would be too make the costs and disadvantages of Allies more restrictive, however this is contrary to Games Workshops current philosophy of letting players play with what they want and would also affect the less abusive more fun/fluffy allies.

as for your suggested changes to Dark Eldar, a lot of them would entail a lot of extra steps each turn along with increased bookkeeping with every dark lance hit affecting armour slowing the game down for what amounts to little effect.

my personal ideas would be:
4+ armour save on trueborn, possibly even ghost plate. there's simply no reason not to have 4+ save ranged units
Assault grenades on Incubi, although not on witches. there is little point including rules for assaulting through cover if every unit ignore the effect, however Incubi are the Heavy(er) assault unit and should have the stronger charge whilst the cheaper witches should need to better pick targets
Give Witches a 5++ dodge save against everything rather than the 4++ in close combat
Remove Bloodbrides as they don't really fulfill any role at the moment, and any role that they could fill is now occupied by Harlequins.
make Drugs a d3 roll: 1 +1ws, 2+1S, 3 +1T. that way you are always going to see some benefit to them.
make power weapons of all kinds available to the Dark Eldar rather than just swords
special/heavy weapons dependent on the squad size, no more 4 special weapons on 4 trueborn. I appreciate that there are other examples of armies having 4 special/heavy per 5 however not with as much maneuverability as is offered to the dark eldar
increase the cost on Raiders (or raiders with stealth) at the moment they are easily the best transports in the game, with armour values counting for less and less the fast skimmer jinking for a 3+ cover that is also an assault transport that can deep strike is a lot of advantages and should be costed accordingly.
give the Voidraven bomb str D, its one use only and on an expensive unit

[Houghten]

While each kind unit has a fixed amount of movement I would add 1d6 to that movement, the dice roll is final and can´t be re-rolled.
The only exception should be Dark Eldar Reavers which not only get the 2d6 roll any Eldar Jetbike does, but also has the option of re-rolling one of the dices. You can already add 1d6 to your movement, it's called Running. Jetbikes can Turbo-Boost.


All Dark Eldar units would have a 5+ Feel no pain from the beginning. Eh...


All Dark Eldar units should have the Fleet special rule.Most of them already do; the exceptions are the Coven units, which are slower but hit harder, and units that can't Run anyway.


Power from Pain is the same as in the Heamonculus Coven. We'll probably get a unified table next Codex around. Nothing since Necrons turned the format upside-down has had a Supplement.


Also the Dark Eldar has a special rule that means in close combat they always strike first no matter what, against other Dark Eldar players roll a d6 the one who gets the highest strikes first.Is this the real life? Is this just Fantasy?


While I am no fan of removing overwatch or directly nullifying it, i´m looking at you Eldar Banshees, I do think it should be remodeled for Dark Eldar on account of them having virtually no armor.
Dark Eldar Whyces and Incubi should on account of their speed for any unit to roll a 1d6, on a 1 and 2 the unit is not allow to overwatch, on a 3 and 4 they do so but at half BS and on a 5 and 6 they fire overwatch like normal.Overwatch is already BS1; there's no such thing as BS½.
Also, no.


Mandrakes are described as being able to emerge from any shadow slice the throat of their victim before sliding back into the shadows again.
Sounds almost like what the Eldar Warp spiders are able to do, so make Mandrakes able to do the same.
Able to teleport around the board and gear them for hit and run close combat.Agreed that just having Infiltrate isn't the best way to represent Mandrakes' abilities, but I'm not sure Warp Spiders are the best role model for them. More like a remove-and-re-Deep-Strike thing, I think.


Change the Dark Lance abilities so it mimics the thousand cut analogy.
For each hit that doesn´t destroy the Target it give it -1 to its armor save.
It could be like this 1st hit nothing happens, 2nd hit -1 to armor save, 3rd hit -2 armor save and so on and so forth till it´s reduced to only be able to manage a save on a 6+
In fluff terms it could be described as the Dark Eldar able the hit the same spots over and over again and each time remove a little amount of the armor till almost nothing is left.

Grotesques have the same abilities as Dark Lance slightly modified 2 hits are needed before they get the same effect.
I imagine in fluff terms it could be described as the Grotesques beating at the same spot constantly till broke through was able to tear open the hull and get to the crew. Dark Lances are already AP2 and Lance; they don't need a power boost. Grotesques could have the ability to glance anything on a 6+ if you wanted them to be able to kill vehicles without any tedious bookkeeping.


Also Raiders and Venoms should have the special rule Fleet of foot or something like that that makes it so that if the Raider or Venom is destroyed, the crew will only be wounded on a 6+
In exchange if you do hit that 6+ no saves of any kind is allowed, neither feel no pain or It will not die.I'd just go back to the old "open-topped transports explode at S3," myself. Simpler.


4+ armour save on trueborn, possibly even ghost plate. there's simply no reason not to have 4+ save ranged unitsWhat are Scourges?


Assault grenades on Incubi, although not on witches. there is little point including rules for assaulting through cover if every unit ignore the effect, however Incubi are the Heavy(er) assault unit and should have the stronger charge whilst the cheaper witches should need to better pick targetsWhy should the heavy assault unit be the fast assault unit?


Give Witches a 5++ dodge save against everything rather than the 4++ in close combatThey could do with having haywire grenades back, too.


Remove Bloodbrides as they don't really fulfill any role at the moment, and any role that they could fill is now occupied by Harlequins.Disagree so hard. You should be able to do a pure faction army if you want to.


make Drugs a d3 roll: 1 +1ws, 2+1S, 3 +1T. that way you are always going to see some benefit to them.*shrug*


make power weapons of all kinds available to the Dark Eldar rather than just swords
Agreed and doubled down: let DE players kitbash. A Space Marine Tactical Squad only comes with a Missile Launcher for a heavy weapon and a power sword and power fist for the sergeant, yet they can still take plasma cannon, heavy bolters, power axes, lightning claws, etc, etc, etc. Yet only the Solarite can take a power lance or venom blade because Scourges are the only box they come in, even though they fit perfectly well on a Sybarite? For shame! The venom blade should be restored to the Mêlée Weapons List, Trueborn should be able to take Shardcarbines again, the "Scourges only" should be removed from the Haywire Blaster and Heat Lance, and there should be no such thing as a weapon that an Acothyst can take but a Haemonculus can't.


special/heavy weapons dependent on the squad size, no more 4 special weapons on 4 trueborn. I appreciate that there are other examples of armies having 4 special/heavy per 5 however not with as much maneuverability as is offered to the dark eldarReally? What's more manoeuvrable about a Raider than a Chimera (IG Special Weapon Squad) or Rhino (Dominions)? Being a Fast Vehicle only helps the vehicle shoot, not the passengers. Also, Windrider Jetbikes are even more maneuverable and can take heavy weapons on every model.


increase the cost on Raiders (or raiders with stealth) at the moment they are easily the best transports in the game, with armour values counting for less and less the fast skimmer jinking for a 3+ cover that is also an assault transport that can deep strike is a lot of advantages and should be costed accordingly.
What do you mean, armour values counting for less? Destroyer and Haywire are both things, yes, but you still can't take out AV12 with bolters. Raiders fold like a paper tissue if you look at them hard, even after jinking. They don't need to get any more expensive.


give the Voidraven bomb str D, its one use only and on an expensive unitAgreeb!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Western_Grebe_swimming.jpg
The Voidraven's rules had the misfortune to be written before some bright spark started putting the D on non super-heavies.

[jeffersonian000]

The main issue is that GW always seems to be writing for the next edition. Back in 5th, they released the GK codex, which was a bit overwhelming in power level, and also introduced new concepts that were standard in 6th. With 6th coming out, GK got pretty neutered, the DA codex was considered a flop, SM were pretty bland, etc., then codexes started to crank up the power level, leading to ... 7th Ed. With 7th, those "OP" armies became meh, newer codexes were meh, then we start seeing OP releases leading up to .... 8th?

What I'm saying is that the "bad" releases where written for the current rules, the "good" releases are written for the rules that haven't come out yet and will be seen as underwhelming after the new rules are out.

TL;DR - GW sucks are managing their release schedule.

How to fix it? Fire their product manager, hire a real publisher and some technical editors, and actually play test their products before they go to print.

SJ

[angkor what?]

I proposed something a while ago before the latest dark eldar codex. It was a special rule to fix Mandrakes.
Something like 'pulled into the shadows' in lieu of normal attacks you may elect to attempt to pull an enemy into the shadows. For each mandrake in the unit your opponent must make a toughness test. For each failed test one enemy model is removed from play (with no saves allowed) with one mandrake also removed. The mandrake may attempt to come back by passing an initiative test.

Couple that with a movement like spiders and you've got a very fluffy style in my opinion.

[Gridlock]

You can already add 1d6 to your movement, it's called Running. Jetbikes can Turbo-Boost.
Yes but I am suggesting putting it in even when you walk, either that or every unit needs to have shoot and run or run and shoot, with no penalties what so ever.
As for Reavers in the fluff it is said that the drivers of dark elder Reavers constantly modifies their Jetbikes to go a little bit faster.
I would want that to be reflected in the rules and to set them apart from their craftworld cousins, hence the option for re-rolling
It would represent the Dark Eldar trying to squeeze just a little more speed out of his engine.


Eh...
Feel no pain on a 4+ or 5+ would again represent the speed of the Dark Eldar, according to the fluff some of them are fast enough to dodge a last gun shoot or a bolt round.
So again if you make your FNP roll it´s the Dark Eldar, that dodges the shoot or something like that..


Most of them already do; the exceptions are the Coven units, which are slower but hit harder, and units that can't Run anyway.
I would suggest even getting coven units to get that extra move or get fleet.

While coven units can hit harder and are tougher, the way I understand it even our toughest units can still be ripped apart, if they go up against Gray knights or other such lovely units with instant death and other lovely toys.
So again either toughen the units up so Wracks, Grotesques, Talos and Chronos would be able to go up against Grey Knights and Dreadnoughts and other such heavy units.
Or increase their speed so in a sense they would be able to run in circles around such units.
Personally I am a fan of the last as I have mentioned before in my mind the Dark Eldar´s main themes should be speed and the thousand cuts that slowly bleed the opponents to death.

Having units that go round after round in close combat just doesn´t sound very fluffy to me.


We'll probably get a unified table next Codex around. Nothing since Necrons turned the format upside-down has had a Supplement.
That would be nice, because this current codex seem a little chopped up, like Haemonculus Covens and Dark Eldar where really meant to be one codex and not two.
Just bring back the old fluff with Haemonculus being able to make Wracks troops and you can run with the Coven and Dark Eldar forces combined or just coven alone.

Also I didn´t mention that before, but I really think that Haemonculus support role should be beefed up.
Kinda like this the Archon is mainly a character hunter he is supposed to go after single targets and take challenges.
The Succubus should be a little like the Dark Eldars answer to the Eversor a close combat monster that should be able to take on blobs of enemies.
The Haemonculus should be the Support choice with a capital S.
He isn´t meant to go into close combat if he does he´s toasts, same with his shooting it´s only so so at best he can be sniper unit, just not a very good one.
What he excels at should be beefing up units, we have the obligatory put him in a unit and he raises the counter of their power from pain chart.
But also maybe do stuff like heal a unit, give them access to special drugs that raises a stat randomly.
Now since he can do all those things, you might be tempted to put him in a Wynch unit, except he will get creamed relatively quickly.
There you could give him certain pieces of equipment that has the abilities described before but could work them at a distance.


Is this the real life? Is this just Fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.
High Elves in Warhammer Fantasy used to have (don´t know if they still do) a special rule that said no matter the opponent initiative the High Elves ALWAYS got first turn in close combat.
This was to make up for the poor strength compared to other armies out there.
I would be suggesting something a little like that for Dark Eldar, whenever they get into close combat no matter the opponents initiative the Dark Eldar always had first strike, even if they were the ones being attacked.
Again in fluff terms their speed would be the cause of that.


Overwatch is already BS1; there's no such thing as BS½.
Also, no.

Okay must have read it wrong, the way I read it you always fired Overwatch on your normal BS.
Which would be Wyches wasn´t used anymore as they would get shredded by Overwatch before they ever got a chance to get into close combat.
But I would still say that Wyches and perhaps Incubi should have a way to negate Overwatch reason is that a Wyche suit is a 6+ save and anything that hits it kills the Wyche.
So the d6 option would make the Wyches viable again as there where a 50/50% chance that they could get into close combat without being shredded by overwatch.
Either that or give them a 4+ Feel no Pain that way the opponent would still get to fire Overwatch and there would still be a 50/50% chance that the Wyches would make it into close combat.



Agreed that just having Infiltrate isn't the best way to represent Mandrakes' abilities, but I'm not sure Warp Spiders are the best role model for them. More like a remove-and-re-Deep-Strike thing, I think.
That could work either that or maybe a combination of that option and what angkor what? Suggested.


Dark Lances are already AP2 and Lance; they don't need a power boost. Grotesques could have the ability to glance anything on a 6+ if you wanted them to be able to kill vehicles without any tedious bookkeeping.
Okay when you put it like that I can see the model I proposed would slow the game down a bit.
However I read this on another Forum which to me does illustrate that the Dark Lances in their current form does have a problem, mind you it was in 6th Edition but from what I have read not that much have changed since then, so the argument is still valied.
One of Dark Eldars major problems: 90% of the shooting is poison, ie they cannot even GLANCE a rhino in the ***.

Now someone might think "well, they have the super blasters and dark lances !?" Yes, which often is worse than lascannon, and only one shot per unit.
No Assault Cannon, Auto Cannon or the like, to take the medium out vehicles. You MUST use one hard shot (and hope you hit AND penetrates) against even the softest orc buggy. And if you make an army of 16 lancer and 12 blasters, then you really don´t have anything else. Fine, you stopped a few more tanks, but you have 40 models in the army, which will be swept away with ease.

In the 7th edition is an EVEN greater disadvantage since tanks again got a boost, so fleet armies again emerges from the caves.

Std. Marines with S4 rapid fire bolter, four warriors with S5 rapid fire, Necrons with rapid fire gauss etc., etc. can all blow small aircraft, rhinos, raiders, buggies and land speeders to smithereens without problems if they come within 12 " while a unit of kabalite warriors stand with their ONE blaster, and MAYBE hits, and MAYBE damage a rhino (which is now also Claiming!), and it is often not enough to stop it.
Now there are so just five instead of two, so Dark Eldar have a tooth worse in 7th, not least because of. This.

This was part of the reason I suggested maybe fixing the Dark Lance so it would have a better option of damaging the various units.
A Ravager can have three Dark Lances that´s 3 potential hits suddenly instead of saving on a 2+ you can only do an armor save on 5+
Which would make up for the fact that a Dark Eldar lance can only shoot once.


I'd just go back to the old "open-topped transports explode at S3," myself. Simpler.
Problem is all Dark Eldar armor is wet cardboard, it takes almost nothing to make them go down, so again to compensate for that I think once again a D6 for the all the passengers.
Only on a 6+ will the passengers get injured, once they are on the ground however they can be picked off normally.


Why should the heavy assault unit be the fast assault unit?
Incubi in my opinion shouldn´t get any types of range attacks not grenades or anything
They should be a close combat unit and nothing else, the main thing they should focus on is going after smaller elite choices, like Terminators and such.
As for dealing with Tanks and other heavy units leave that to the Grotesques, Ravagers and Scourges that´s their job.



They could do with having haywire grenades back, too.
I can only say YES PLEASE


Disagree so hard. You should be able to do a pure faction army if you want to.
Agreed Harlequins have become their own faction now, let the Blood Brides fill out the position that the Harlequins occupied.



Agreed and doubled down: let DE players kitbash. A Space Marine Tactical Squad only comes with a Missile Launcher for a heavy weapon and a power sword and power fist for the sergeant, yet they can still take plasma cannon, heavy bolters, power axes, lightning claws, etc, etc, etc. Yet only the Solarite can take a power lance or venom blade because Scourges are the only box they come in, even though they fit perfectly well on a Sybarite? For shame! The venom blade should be restored to the Mêlée Weapons List, Trueborn should be able to take Shardcarbines again, the "Scourges only" should be removed from the Haywire Blaster and Heat Lance, and there should be no such thing as a weapon that an Acothyst can take but a Haemonculus can't.
If every Dark Eldar could take every weapon we would have a lot of useless units.
Why should I take Scourges if my warriors can fill out the exact same role?
Again while the Dark Eldar doesn´t have the Path system like the Craftworld cousins do, I would still say let each unit have something they are geared towards.
As said before I see the Haemonculus as a support unit, he isn´t designed to ever go into close combat and even his shooting is much is nothing and unexceptional, where he excels is in support.
So re-tool the different units so they are more geared towards the role they will fulfill in your army.

What do you mean, armour values counting for less? Destroyer and Haywire are both things, yes, but you still can't take out AV12 with bolters. Raiders fold like a paper tissue if you look at them hard, even after jinking. They don't need to get any more expensive.
We defiantly agree here, Dark Eldar armor is wet cardboard and that´s when it´s at its best.
Chimeras and Rhinos can take a lot of punishment Venoms, Raiders and Ravagers can´t even a stiff breeze will knock them over.
So if they go up in points they need some SERIOUS improvements to justify their price increase.



Agreeb! The Voidraven's rules had the misfortune to be written before some bright spark started putting the D on non super-heavies.
Can´t argue there especially when we look at things such as Eldar Hemlock Wraithfighters that have all sorts of goodies on them including psychic powers.
If Voidravens and Razorwing is to be worth their cost Voidravens should get D on all their weapons and Voidravens weapon range should increase and each should get Night shield or something like that.

[Reldane]

Really? What's more manoeuvrable about a Raider than a Chimera (IG Special Weapon Squad) or Rhino (Dominions)? Being a Fast Vehicle only helps the vehicle shoot, not the passengers. Also, Windrider Jetbikes are even more maneuverable and can take heavy weapons on every model.

I generally try not to respond without constructive points to make, however a couple of points have been made that I would like to address.

firstly Raiders and Venoms are quantifiable more maneuverable than Chimera and Rhinos, being both a skimmer and a fast Vehicle.
Skimmer: "skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models... Skimmers can move over terrain ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous terrain tests" - that's pretty clear cut as being easier to move than a non skimmer.

fast: "fast vehicles that moved at combat speed can fire all of their weapons... fast vehicles that moved at cruising speed may fire up to two weapons using their full Ballistic Skill" - means that the Vehicle (but not the passengers) can fire move weapons having moved 12" than a regular vehicle that moved 6" given that a lot of specail weapons are closer range, Meltas, Blasters and so forth the ability for a Venom to move 12" in the first (and potentioaly second) turns whilst still pumping out 12 bs posioned 4+ shots certainly lets it get into a better position

Deep strike - both the Venom and the Raider now have Deep strike as standard. making them able to arrive anywhere on the board with the usually drawbacks associated with Deep Strike.

all in all Raiders and Venoms are a more maneuverable in two quantifiable ways, and one debatable way, than the more regular transports avaible to non eldar players.

add in the fact that non open topped vehicles have limited firing ports and the squads by comparison are capped at firing 2 weapons rather than all of the weapons that can be fired and hopefully you can see why every other army would happily trade their transports for Venoms and Raiders. As to your comment about the Eldar windriders, honestly I have nothing to say, but if you can only justify your own units by comparing them to Eldar then you may need to change the title of the thread from the worst codex to not quite the Eldar Codex.


What do you mean, armour values counting for less? Destroyer and Haywire are both things, yes, but you still can't take out AV12 with bolters. Raiders fold like a paper tissue if you look at them hard, even after jinking. They don't need to get any more expensive.


We defiantly agree here, Dark Eldar armor is wet cardboard and that´s when it´s at its best.
Chimeras and Rhinos can take a lot of punishment Venoms, Raiders and Ravagers can´t even a stiff breeze will knock them over.
So if they go up in points they need some SERIOUS improvements to justify their price increase.

with Gauss, Haywire, Destroyer and Grav weapons becoming ever more prevalent along with increases in the firepower of high strength weapons, Tau Broadsides with Missile pods for example, it matters very little if your transport is AV 10 or 11, either way it is enough hits to take it out (also you brought up the Ravager that has exactly the same AV's as a Rhino). now in the case of the Venoms and Raiders being open topped does increase the chance of a pen causing an explodes result that can be devastating, but to balance that point being open topped permits you to assault (even after your transport is wreaked) and to fire all of your weapons. rules that do fit well with the Dark Eldar principles of being a very offensive but also very vulnerable army.

however with the inclusion of Stealth and Jink your transports now can have a 3+ save against a lot of shooting, and have a much better chance to survive a volley of str 5 or better shooting than a Rhino


weapon Str
to hit
to pen av10
to glance av10
shots to kill
to pen av11
to glance av11
shots to kill



5
4/6
1/6
1/6
34.7
0
1/6
27


6
4/6
2/6
1/6
22.1
1/6
1/6
13.5


7
4/6
3/6
1/6
16.2
2/6
1/6
9


8
4/6
4/6
1/6
12.8
3/6
1/6
6.8



shots taken calculated as to HP/(hit*(to pen*chance to destroy*2+to glance)*failed save) 2 being average amount of hull points lost on a destroyed result.

hopefully you can see how begin able to take a 3+ cover save increases the amount of firepower taken to destroy the vehicle by some margin meaning Venoms and Raiders are a lot more durable than they might at first seem. I haven't compared them with a Chimera because the Chimera has side armour of 10 meaning that taking either facing will skew the results one way or another.

[angkor what?]

I proposed something a while ago before the latest dark eldar codex. It was a special rule to fix Mandrakes.
Something like 'pulled into the shadows' in lieu of normal attacks you may elect to attempt to pull an enemy into the shadows. For each mandrake in the unit your opponent must make a toughness test. For each failed test one enemy model is removed from play (with no saves allowed) with one mandrake also removed. The mandrake may attempt to come back by passing an initiative test.

Couple that with a movement like spiders and you've got a very fluffy style in my opinion.

Actually rather than in lieu of attacking it would be better at initiative step 9? After HoW

[Katharon]

It's not a matter of "fixing" weak codicies, but rather a matter of pairing down extremely powerful ones.

[Charon]

Skimmers can move over terrain ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous terrain tests" - that's pretty clear cut as being easier to move than a non skimmer.

There is an item called "Dozer Blade" which decreases your chance to fail dangerous terrain tests immense. Also note that skimmers still have to test if they end or start in diffcult terrain.


fast: "fast vehicles that moved at combat speed can fire all of their weapons...

Which is totally important for the raider which has... ONE weapon.

You also fail to compar point costs. While yes, it takes 3 times as many shots to down a jinking Raider with nightshields than to kill a rhino, you also get around 3 rhinos for the same points.
Also the existence of AV12 all around dirt cheap drop pods makes the mobility point rather moot.


hopefully you can see why every other army would happily trade their transports for Venoms and Raiders.

Sure they would. Because they have high quality troops to transport. They would not be very keen if they were only allowed to transport chaos cultists.

You just need to compare price points to see that the mobility of the raider/venom is actually no big deal as the transported units are strictly worse than aything else at their price point.

Flayed ones come at the same price point as Bloodbrides for example.
And while the Bloodbrides have a better BS and I, the Flayed ones have more S, T, A, Ld, Sv and a ton of useful special rules AP5 and shred.

So basically if you had the choice between spending another 70 points to let your 10 Bloodbrides have "the superior mobility" and DS them with a raider or just Infiltrate/DS 2 units of 8 Flayed ones I am pretty sure that most people would go for the flayed ones.

You can do this for nearly every single unit in the book.

[Reldane]

There is an item called "Dozer Blade" which decreases your chance to fail dangerous terrain tests immense. Also note that skimmers still have to test if they end or start in diffcult terrain.

a dozer blade does mitigate some of the dangerous of terrain, but certainly doesn't let you jump over the top of units or buildings. honestly I can't really see your point here, even with a dozer blade a regular vehicle is still at a disadvantage to a skimmer in terms of maneuverability.




Which is totally important for the raider which has... ONE weapon.

true it has one weapon, a disintorgator or a dark lance, which will out perform many other weapons mounted on 10 man transports (storm bolters, mulit lasers) which it can fire after moving 12". yes it would be nice if it had two weapons so it could fire both as well as all of the embarked units shooting after moving 6, but it would have to have a weaker gun if it did have two of them.


You also fail to compar point costs. While yes, it takes 3 times as many shots to down a jinking Raider with nightshields than to kill a rhino, you also get around 3 rhinos for the same points.

actually you need to look up the points costs, a raider with night is exactly 2 rhino's worth of points.


Also the existence of AV12 all around dirt cheap drop pods makes the mobility point rather moot.

a drop pod gives a unit deep strike, but once it has landed it is immobile and the unit must immediately disembark. not that drop pods aren't powerful, they are, but they work very differently to a transport.



Sure they would. Because they have high quality troops to transport. They would not be very keen if they were only allowed to transport chaos cultists.

You just need to compare price points to see that the mobility of the raider/venom is actually no big deal as the transported units are strictly worse than aything else at their price point.

Flayed ones come at the same price point as Bloodbrides for example.
And while the Bloodbrides have a better BS and I, the Flayed ones have more S, T, A, Ld, Sv and a ton of useful special rules AP5 and shred.

So basically if you had the choice between spending another 70 points to let your 10 Bloodbrides have "the superior mobility" and DS them with a raider or just Infiltrate/DS 2 units of 8 Flayed ones I am pretty sure that most people would go for the flayed ones.

You can do this for nearly every single unit in the book.

okay I have no way of responding to this with quantifiable data: my opinion is however that Kabalite warriors, wtyches, trueborn, wracks and scourges are all reasonably costed for their stat lines and whilst Necron's and Eldar might have units that make them look poor by comparison arguing that the top tier books have something that is better than ours merely includes you in 80% of armies.

[Fueldrop]

The value of a raider's Fast Skimmer and Open Topped qualities cannot be understated. Fast skimmer means you can move a truly blistering flat out of 30 inches, allowing you to re position your entire army onto the enemy's flank in turn 1 and leave them hopelessly ill-deployed to counter your subsequent attack. The term "Defeat in Detail" comes to mind. This is also hugely useful for last second objective grabs.

Open Topped is another huge one for DE. Since DE Toughness and Armour are on par with the Imperial Guard (AKA t-shirts) but are without the numbers to soak casualties like Guardsmen, the ability to have your troops firing from an AV 10 position with a 3+ jink save means that they're far better protected from small arms fire. For witches this is even more important as open topped makes the vehicle an assault vehicle, allowing them to cross the battlefield quickly and in relative safety before wading into the fray.

[Charon]

Again. Nobody is arguing that the Raider is not a good vehicle IF YOU CAN USE QUALITY TROOPS.
A band of Wyches gets you nowhere. They are not even fit to reliably beat imperial guard soliders.
Put Banshees, Harlequins, Scorpions,.. in and suddenly it is really good. But these are not units from Codex: Dark Eldar.
Another fun comparison is a Venom with Fire Dragons (5 special weapons, Meltabombs, 3+ save, Battletrance, +1 to vehicle damage, BS5) to a Venom with Kabalite Trueborn (4 special weapons, 5+ save) which is more points than the Dragons.
It is fine to have good vehicles. But only if you have good units to transport.

[Reldane]

Unfortunately we can compare pretty much any army to the current Eldar/Necron codex and complain at how the units come up short. Maybe this will change with time, but honestly I suspect not. Fundamentally though, having weaker units doesn't justify stronger units and this thread should be a discussion on how to make those weaker units closer to what they should be.

So to get us back on topic: how much stronger do witches need to be?

they are very vulnerable to overwatch and without access to power axes, can struggle to deal with better armour saves
on the plus side high initiative, combat drugs (with a 2/6 chance of not being useful for combat, I and Ld) and power from pain

now it has been suggested that Witches be allowed to take haywire grenades again; I however don't feel that a cheep squad of witches should be among the best vehicle killers in the game. Instead my suggestion would be to improve the witch weapons and make them noticeably more effective than not having them.

[Charon]

The codex was garbage when it was released and gets more and more garbage the more other codices are released. No matter with which army you try to compare. Dark Angels and pure CSM are on par but both will get an update in time... unlike DE.

[Mr Mystery]

DE will get a new Codex - of course they will.

Eldar got one after what, a little over a year?

[Fueldrop]

It's been a while since I last saw a DE codex, but I'm going to work with what I remember.

Warriors: Poison gets better the higher the target's toughness. However, with the addition of GMCs and their virtual immunity to poison the primary strength of the otherwise unimpressive splinter weapons (IE your troops are good against anything with a toughness value) is all but nullified. Since you can still lay down fire in bulk it's not as bad as it is for snipers, but it still hurts their primary cool component. Outside of that they're not much better than S3/S4 weapons depending on the target.

How would I improve them? Change splinter rifles to 18" assault 2. Giving warriors the ability to assault as a follow-up to shooting makes them noticeably better. I'd also suggest that giving splinter rifles the pinning special rule would not be out of the question, as thematically they're a weapon of terror and in practice Pinning is hardly a game breaker.

Witches: Make witches have a poisoned 4+ melee attack as standard, and give them the ability to move shoot run and assault. Add to that making splinter pistols pinning (for a chance at removing overwatch) and possibly counterattack, and I think we might be onto something.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Haven't played much against the DE Codex. IMO, Wyches as gladiatorial fighters never made sense being anti-tank interceptors. They should be masters of tearing enemy models to ribbons. Some sort of standard Dodge save and something to help them hit hard in melee is a given, IMO. Perhaps an ability to re-roll Combat Drugs as well. Raiders are pretty solid provided you're not spamming Ignores Cover, IMO. Fragile, but with a 3++ and the ability to flit 36" a turn with Aether Sails, they're able to be a real threat on turn two if they go first.

Splinter Rifles not being able to hurt tanks is moot. Most standard weapons can barely scratch AV10. Guard make do with Lasguns which can't hurt anything aside from an occasionally hilarious series of lucky rolls, as much like DEldar it's the specialist units and special weapons that do the serious work. However, Poison 4+ and AP5 is a pretty solid pair of bonuses, though they're not a great anti-horde weapon.

[Houghten]

Haven't played much against the DE Codex. IMO, Wyches as gladiatorial fighters never made sense being anti-tank interceptors. They should be masters of tearing enemy models to ribbons. Thing is, enemy Dreadnoughts are exactly the kind of enemy model they should be able to tear to ribbons.

[Djbz]

It's been a while since I last saw a DE codex, but I'm going to work with what I remember.

Warriors: Poison gets better the higher the target's toughness. However, with the addition of GMCs and their virtual immunity to poison the primary strength of the otherwise unimpressive splinter weapons (IE your troops are good against anything with a toughness value) is all but nullified. Since you can still lay down fire in bulk it's not as bad as it is for snipers, but it still hurts their primary cool component. Outside of that they're not much better than S3/S4 weapons depending on the target.

How would I improve them? Change splinter rifles to 18" assault 2. Giving warriors the ability to assault as a follow-up to shooting makes them noticeably better. I'd also suggest that giving splinter rifles the pinning special rule would not be out of the question, as thematically they're a weapon of terror and in practice Pinning is hardly a game breaker.
lac
Witches: Make witches have a poisoned 4+ melee attack as standard, and give them the ability to move shoot run and assault. Add to that making splinter pistols pinning (for a chance at removing overwatch) and possibly counterattack, and I think we might be onto something.

Mostly agree, Splinter rifles should have been assault from the beginning (Rapid-fire has no place in a Raiding force)
Flickerfield options for Ravager, Razorwing and Voidraven.
Razorwing should be a better anti-air unit (it's a bomber more than a fighter as it is now)
Vector Dancer on the Razorwing
Voidraven-Armour 11 and Void weapons should be Strength D (Read the descriptions-sounds like D weapons to me)
Wyches should be Ws 5, bloodbrides Ws 6 at base and have an effect like Bladestorm on their melee weapons (Let's call it "Knife-fighters, and it makes sense as wyches are supposed to be able to take down enemies regardless of size)
Also Dark Eldar character upgrades (Sybarite/Hekatrix etc.) Should get improved Ws/Bs/I like the Craftworld characters.
Phantasm and torment grenade launchers- Remove the ATSKNF immunity to them and/or make them cause pinning
Night Shields- make them useful when night-fighting is in effect
And Dark lance/Blaster/blast pistol etc their description says that looking at the shot without the proper protection leaves permanent slash-scars on the retinas. So add the blind rule to them.
Scourges should be as fast as swooping hawks.
Hellions-give them Jink, Move through cover and give them back their additional attack.
Reavers- 4+ armour save (Their original save I might add)
Beastmasters should start with pistol+melee weapon (rather than just one combat weapon).
And totally agree Kit-bashing, practically every Dark Eldar kit is compatible so let other units have venom blades/power lances etc.
Many of the other issues Dark eldar have can be rectified by modifications to the transport rules (str4 explosions/can't shoot/dismount effectively from while moving at anything other than a snails pace etc.)
And Dark-Eldar should get an awesome Multi-formation detachment like all the "main" forces since Necrons have.
With a "Core" where you can use Haemonculus coven/Wych cult/Kabalite units.

Edit: Mandrakes. (Where do I begin?) An in background assassination unit that appears out of the shadows to kill their target with knives. Game effect: Anti-medium infantry shooting unit that won't last 5 seconds in hand to hand because they have no save (what were GW's game designers thinking?)

[Fueldrop]

Wyches should be Ws 5, bloodbrides Ws 6 at base and have an effect like Bladestorm on their melee weapons (Let's call it "Knife-fighters, and it makes sense as wyches are supposed to be able to take down enemies regardless of size)
.

If you're going to go that route I'd suggest dropping their ballistic skill by one from current, representing them focusing on one aspect of combat at the expense of another (I'm kinda hesitant about having troops at WS 5 for any army, but it does very much fit with the fluff for them.)

Really, I'd be inclined to consider giving Bloodbrides the Precision Strikes and Rampage special rules, and giving witch derivative squad leaders +1 on their dodge save while in a challenge, to represent them being able to focus on dodging a single foe's attacks rather than having to watch a whole bundle of attackers.

[Djbz]

If you're going to go that route I'd suggest dropping their ballistic skill by one from current, representing them focusing on one aspect of combat at the expense of another (I'm kinda hesitant about having troops at WS 5 for any army, but it does very much fit with the fluff for them.)

Really, I'd be inclined to consider giving Bloodbrides the Precision Strikes and Rampage special rules, and giving witch derivative squad leaders +1 on their dodge save while in a challenge, to represent them being able to focus on dodging a single foe's attacks rather than having to watch a whole bundle of attackers.

Oh,yeah one lower Bs wouldn't be too bad (It is something I thought of, just forgot to write it down), after all the Succubus has a lower Bs but higher ws than an Archon so the wyches having the same differences when compared to Kabalite warriors would make sense.

[Reldane]

Let's call it "Knife-fighters

instead lets just call it rending, yeah so it also has a minor effect against vehicles, but Witches are strength 3 anyway so it barely makes any difference

[Djbz]

instead lets just call it rending, yeah so it also has a minor effect against vehicles, but Witches are strength 3 anyway so it barely makes any difference

They're gladiators they should be killing people, they have no business stabbing vehicles.

[Reldane]

They're gladiators they should be killing people, they have no business stabbing vehicles.

I wouldn't have thought that Genesteelers or Razorwing flocks had much cause for killing vehicles either, but Universal special rules are meant to be universal. rending on low strength attacks isn't going to tear a vehicle apart.

[Grand Master Raziel]

House rules to buff individual armies are always going to be suspect. People buffing their own armies are rarely going to be objective enough about it to get it right.

A better way to go would be to work out some sort of handicap system with your regular playing group. I haven't felt the need to implement it yet, but I came up with the following system.

1: Keep track of your record vs all your particular opponents. If they play more than one army, differentiate between games played with different armies.

2: If you lose 2 games in a row vs a particular opponent (assuming he plays the same army both times), the next time you play that opponent (and that army), add 100pts to your list. For every subsequent game you lose to that opponent/army, add an additional 100pts to your list.

3: When you win a game vs that particular opponent/army, you lose 100pts off your bonus, and the count resets - you have to lose 2 games in a row to start receiving bonus points again.

So, let's say I'm playing my Chaos Marines vs Carol's Sisters of Battle. If I lose twice to Carol, I add +100pts to my list. So, if we were playing 1500pts, I'd actually be using 1600pts to her 1500. If I lose again, then next time we play I get 1700pts to Carol's 1500. If I then win, I go back down to 1600pts, and I'd have to lose to Carol's SoBs twice in a row before I began getting bonus points again.

[Fueldrop]

I am disagreeing that Witches should be rending in any variation.

Where to Witches train? The arena. What do they fight there?

1) Other Witches. No need for rending there.
2) Slaves. While slaves can come from any race or faction, it seems unlikely to me that they'll be allowed to keep their power armour. The spectators want to see suffering, not witches beating up a tin can!
3) Exotic beasts. No need for rending there.

I'm seeing Witches fill the role of Horde-slayer/crowd control, so lots of poisoned attacks that hit often is kinda their thing. They're a troops choice, they don't need to be all things to all foes. Let the raiders, ravagers and trueborn deal with vehicles, the Witches are out for sport.

[Path Walker]

I wouldn't have thought that Genesteelers or Razorwing flocks had much cause for killing vehicles either, but Universal special rules are meant to be universal. rending on low strength attacks isn't going to tear a vehicle apart.

No such thing as Universal Special Rules now...

- - - Updated - - -


instead lets just call it rending, yeah so it also has a minor effect against vehicles, but Witches are strength 3 anyway so it barely makes any difference

Or why not ignore rending and have it like tons of other special rules do now

[Fueldrop]

Actually, I did have one other idea for a rule for Witches:
Spectators: Witches are performers and will fight all the harder when eyes are on them. If there's an unengaged friendly unit within 12" of a witch squad engaged in close combat, the witches gain the stubborn special rule.

[Archon Charybdis]

I am disagreeing that Witches should be rending in any variation.

Where to Witches train? The arena. What do they fight there?

Lelith Hesperax has AP2 all the time with a simple pair of daggers, it's hardly a stretch to say other less talented Wyches have a lesser ability. You could very easily represent it as their ability to find openings and weak spots in an opponent's defense and going for the chinks in the armor. That's literally what Bladestorm does in fluff for Craftworld Eldar--you could copy paste the rule and it would work mechanically and thematically. It's not the only possible fix that could work, but it's hardly a bad or unfluffy one.

[Fueldrop]

How does this sound?

Bloodbrides can either be Bloodbride Hunters or Bloodbride Breakers.

All witches and bloodbrides get Poisoned attacks (4+), and counterattack on top of what they currently have (I think, remember I'm working off memory here)

Bloodbride hunters are your anti heavy infantry/monstrous creature. They get Precision Strikes, Rend, and Monster Hunter and are outfitted with haywire grenades.

Bloodbride Breakers are anti-horde specialists. They get Rampage, Preferred Enemy, and Rage and are outfitted with defensive grenades.

[Archon Charybdis]

I doubt we'd see two profiles for Bloodbrides, but either one would be a great suite of upgrades to give Bloodbrides SOMETHING to make them stand out. Regular wyches definitely still need something too though, even if not Rending, or else they need a 3 or 4pt drop. They're just so useless as they are. I think extending their Dodge save to shooting (even if only as a 5+ cover) would go a long way, but they could also use something to give them a bit more killing power. Right now they've got the glass part down pat but seem to have forgotten about the hammer aspect.

[Charon]

I don't even want a points decrease. They can esily get points INCREASE and act as a banshee stand in because if you spend more points on a transport (that is an actual transport and not a tank with multiple heavy weapons that happens to have a troop compartment) than on the troops you intend to deliver you might as well just skip both.

[Archon Charybdis]

I don't even want a points decrease.

I wouldn't either, I just meant to point out that as they are they're pathetically overcosted. Even back in 5th ed I don't think they were worth their points, and that was back when melee was king and wyche weapons were pretty good. Somebody suggested earlier in the thread to have PfP start with FNP 5+, and that would go a long way towards fixing Wyches and a lot of other units--actually giving them a bit of durability that reflects their points. Having over half of all the factions in the game not be immune to Fear would fix a lot of units/options for DE too, though that might be a bit far afield for the discussion here.

[Dave Mcturk]

i dont think DE are that bad !

some of the old builds are now ineffective - but there is lots of good stuff - and as long as you dont play on billiard tables - the DE should be ok for 2 turns until their power from pain kicks in -

the main 'trick' with DE as far as i can see is not to 'over-commit' too early in the game - whereas it used to be 'whizz - whizz' from turn one.

and god knows why they changed 'phantasm grenades' !

[Charon]

Yeah.. im sure nobody figured that out yet...
Play 20 games DE vs Eldar and try again. This matchup is plain not winnable at the moment. Not even with a points advantage and a random rolled out eldar army. Unbeaten in 20 games now against someone I use to play very close games (with other armies) against. Get him tabled by turn 4 most of the time without suffering any major casualties.
Seems almost like he suddenly forgot how to play and I am a tactical genius now... can't possibly be the army.

[Fueldrop]

Yeah.. im sure nobody figured that out yet...
Play 20 games DE vs Eldar and try again. This matchup is plain not winnable at the moment. Not even with a points advantage and a random rolled out eldar army. Unbeaten in 20 games now against someone I use to play very close games (with other armies) against. Get him tabled by turn 4 most of the time without suffering any major casualties.
Seems almost like he suddenly forgot how to play and I am a tactical genius now... can't possibly be the army.

Yeah, it does sound like some tactical gen... CREEEEEED!