Space Marine rules questions (Auspex and Chronus)

[Haighus]

Ok, so I have a couple of things I want to clarify with the Space Marine Codex. I appreciate this may be invalidated in the very near future, but hey.

First up, Antaro Chronus' rules state that he can be taken for any Ultramarines tank. This doesn't specify any specific tank types. Does that mean that he could also be taken on the FW vehicles found in IA2 Second Edition, so long as they are also tanks (such as Sicarians, FW Land Raider variants etc)?

Secondly, can auspexes be used from within a transport vehicle? The rules for them merely states that they are used instead of shooting, but doesn't say that they are a form of shooting attack. For me, this could go one of 3 ways:
They can be used from within a vehicle no problem, in the same way Blessings of the Omnissiah can be used (also something that replaces the models shooting).
They require a firing point and are used in the same way as a shooting attack.
They cannot be used inside a transport vehicle.

The rules for auspexes (auspices?):
A model with an auspex can use it in place of making a shooting attack. If he does so, target an enemy unit within 12" (this does not count as choosing a target for his unit to shoot at). A unit that is targeted by one or more auspexes has its cover saves reduced by 1 until the end of the phase .

So what do people think?

[Denzark]

I thought Chronus specified those in the codex. If not, does the comment 'ultramarine tank' have some implication of 'ultramarine faction' which can only be found in the codex?

As to the auspex I reckon it uses 1 fire point but await a more proficient rules lawyer to say why not...

[Haighus]

"Sergeant Chronus may be taken as an upgrade for one Ultramarines Tank in the army."
That is the wording of his profile. Hmm. Tanks don't have Chapter tactics, so I can't see how the FW ones are any different to the Codex ones, they are the same faction.

I would play the auspex the way you say at the moment, but I am also awaiting rules lawyers for a ruling :)

[Denzark]

I know Pask says codex - I wonder if the new SM codex will limit Chronus? I like to concept of him, just never found a SM tank worth it yet. Mebbe a Pred Annihilator in a fluffy list, but preds do not get out much in competitive lists...

[Houghten]

We've had this argument over Pask / Generic AM Tank Commander before, I think. Sure, it says "choose from those on page 102" but the Annihilator and Conqueror's rules both say they can be taken as part of a Leman Russ squadron; it doesn't explicitly say "staple this page to page 102 and count it as part of it" but the effect is the same.

[Haighus]

It is much more vague than the wording for Pask/Leman Russ commander though- literally just says what I posted above- may be taken by any Ultramarines tank.

As for his worth in being taken, he could well be worth it in a Sicarian, as BS5 Accelerator autocannons and BS5 lascannon sponsons would be brutal. Could even give the vehicle Tank Hunters and resistance to Haywire with one of the Legacies of Glory in IA2. Was thinking about it for a Land Raider Achilles too, as the Achilles is already very tough. Giving it IWND would make it even harder to kill. Except for Eldar probably.

[Denzark]

Not hugely convinced by the Pask argument. There may be slight discrepancies in points cost or options between IA1 Vol2 and Codex AM. The Squadrons that allow annihilators and conquerors to be taken as part of them are those in the LR entry in IA1 Vol2, not the page 102 list in Codex AM. It is pure RAW and is also backed up by the fact that Pask has further effects on his vehicle depending on the type, ie rending on the punisher, big blast on the plasma. He does not have similar rules effects on conqs and annihilators.

If you say Chronus can go in any tank, he could be amusing in the Warhammer World exclusive Land Raider Excelsior. That can get BS+1 from the command Rhino and Pask would make it 6 - then you can give friendly units skyfire so could be firing grav amps and lascannons at fliers at BS 6 - nice.

[Houghten]

Not hugely convinced by the Pask argument. There may be slight discrepancies in points cost or options between IA1 Vol2 and Codex AM. The Squadrons that allow annihilators and conquerors to be taken as part of them are those in the LR entry in IA1 Vol2, not the page 102 list in Codex AM. It is pure RAW and is also backed up by the fact that Pask has further effects on his vehicle depending on the type, ie rending on the punisher, big blast on the plasma. He does not have similar rules effects on conqs and annihilators.

The Conqueror entry says "Leman Russ Conquerors may be taken as part of a Leman Russ squadron for a Codex: Imperial Guard army." Likewise Annihilators. Each is a unit entry, whole and unto itself, and makes no reference to the Leman Russ squadron (other than the Conquerors or Annihilators, which have their own upgrade lists) having to be point-valued up from Imperial Armour instead of Codex: Imperial Guard.

That Pask's Crack Shot rule has no effect on a twin-linked lascannon or Conqueror battle cannon only means that you'd have to be away with the fairies before paying 40 extra points to put him on a Conqueror / Annihilator, but the generic Commander is a handy BS boost.

What you quite clearly can't do is put one on a Destroyer or Thunderer, as they have no ability to be taken as part of a Leman Russ squadron, but other than that your "pure RAW" seems to be... not.

[Denzark]

Well 2 things then. Can you find conqs and annis on P102 of the Codex? And if you copied the IA entry verbatim, there ain't a codex Imperial Guard any more.

So, rules as written eh?

[Houghten]

I've already given my reasoning about not stapling the unit entries to page 102 and won't repeat it. It's not precisely "as written," I just don't think your interpretation is either. When it comes to FW you can't "pure RAW" because GW refuse to ever mention or acknowledge FW publications in their own.

If you honestly think treating Codex: Astra Militarum as somehow not Codex: Imperial Guard in any aspect is a clever thing to do, then I will speak with you no further.

[Denzark]

Your argument is based entirely on RAI. Actually - I agree with you - not counting 'IG' as 'AM' is not clever. For me, if someone was stupid enough to put Pask in one of those variants, I'd go with it.

But you can't just make a leap and 'staple' the IA entries into 102. Just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can with 40K. There are no more implied rules to state Pask can go in a Conqueror then there are to state he can ride the back of a captured Defiler.

The tank commander entry specifically refers to a page in the Codex AM that does not have the word 'conqueror' or 'annihilator' written in that entry. Therefore, my comment that it is 'pure RAW' stands.

[Houghten]

Pure Codex RAW, perhaps. You have quite firmly stuck to that one line in the Tank Commander unit entry. What I do is read as many rules as possible, twice, and then try to reconcile them all with each other despite their clearly not having been designed to do so.

Here's another line, or rather a pair of them: "A Tank Commander starts the game in a Leman Russ tank (pg 46), leading a Leman Russ Squadron. Note that any type of Leman Russ can be taken as the commander's vehicle, and that it can have any upgrades usually available to that type of tank."

Now, laying aside that you can't simultaneously choose a tank from pages 46 and 102, the only types of Leman Russ tank on pg 46 are the Battle Tank and the Exterminator. So what we have here are three separate statements, in order of restrictiveness:
1) any type of Leman Russ can be taken as the commander's vehicle
2) must take one Leman Russ from those listed on page 102
3) starts the game in a Leman Russ tank (pg 46)

All I'm doing is going with #1. Why? Because page references are there for your comfort and convenience when flipping back and forth through a book, not for excluding Forge World options.

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P.S. Why do you keep saying RAI like it's a dirty word?

[Haighus]

Ok, the Pask discussion is all very well and good, and I can see the ruling either way, although Houghten lays out a very compelling argument with the 3 statements, are we in agreement that Chronus is available to any Tank available to the Space Marines faction and included in a detachment using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics?

[Denzark]

I'm only continuing this discussion because of your earlier insistence that this wasn't RAW. You have softened that to 'pure codex RAW perhaps'. Technically correct is the best sort of correct!

I don't think I have implied any negative weight to RAI. But arguing over RAI is subjective - RAW is objective. RAW is a matter of pure English comprehension. RAI is, without the primary source evidence of that rule/codex writer further explaining it, is simply a matter of opinion.

Hark back to Pre-FAQ codex CSM. Factions were split as to whether or not Plague zombies could be taken as mobs of 35, based on a restriction on plague zombies taking upgrades. But the extra cultists are listed in the upgrade section. In the end, whilst RAW was correct - 10 was the limit by RAW, the matter was FAQ'd - yes you can take 35. I was given an infraction on here for gloating about it!

But RAI is nothing without context.

What you referred to at number 2 above is an absolutely explicit restriction. I say that prevents anything outside 102 being taken. You say RAI is that number 2 comes into play - any LR tank and INTENDING to disregard the number 2 restrictions. I say RAI is any tank within that codex - because we don't chop and change upgrades or options between codexes/rulebooks.

That is the problem with RAI, entirely down to opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes Haighus, sorry to digress, I think your latter interpretation of Chronus deployment is correct.

He has no page number restricting his choice, this is why he has an open book and Pask don't.

But what do you think of the idea of Chronus in the Excelsior?

[Houghten]

"pure Codex RAW" was meant to be a barb, not soft. I'm saying you only "count as" right if you never read Imperial Armour.

Also, RAW isn't objective. I never understand why people say that. Words aren't fixed, double-super-especially in English. Note how in 7th, the rules for assaulting through cover were updated to state that even if a unit is not slowed by difficult terrain, its Initiative is still reduced. Previously, it was not clear that "slowed" referred only to move distance, not attack speed.

So... context, eh?

In the beginning (not counting the first twenty-odd years), there was Codex: Imperial Guard. It had Leman Russ tank squadrons in it, but no tank commanders.
Following that, Forge World brought out Imperial Armour Volume One Second Edition, with a couple of extra Leman Russ tank types in it, and the ability to add them into Leman Russ squadrons. They could also be taken in the variant army list, the Armoured Company, where everything is tanks and commanded by Command Tanks. Interestingly, the Tank Commanders in the Armoured Company can't sit in whatever Leman Russ type they desire - the Russes are split along three lines: Battle Tanks, which includes Battle Tanks (duh), Vanquishers, Conquerors, Exterminators, Eradicators and Annihilators; Siege Tanks, which includes Demolishers, Thunderers, Punishers and Executioners; and Destroyers, which includes Destroyers. The Command Tanks (and the Commissar Tanks) can only take the types associated with Battle Tanks.
Later, Codex: Imperial Guard was replaced by Codex: Astra Militarum. Aside from making most of the tanks cheaper, the big change there was that it had tank commanders. However, it pointedly ignored almost everything in Imperial Armour; the Leman Russ variants, the Machariuses, the Trojans, the Atlases, the Tauruses, the Vultures... you get the idea. If it's resin, this book pretends it doesn't exist. (The one exception was the Vendetta, which had been in Codex: Imperial Guard and converted by just about every Imperial Guard player in existence; it was a bit late to remove it by then, though I'm surprised they didn't plasticise it.) It also let its Tank Commanders play in Siege Tanks, on account of making no distinctions between the types and just bundling them all up in the same squadron.

It is at this point that anyone using the phrase "Rules As Intended" must ask the question "Rules as who intended"? Because as much as FW try to adapt to GW, the opposite is as imaginable as a blue sun. It's plain as day from the way they can be command tanks in the Armoured Company list that FW intended the Annihilator and Conqueror to be eligible for Commanders, and if they were to write Imperial Armour Volume One Third Edition I'd bet every last dollar I've hidden away that their unit entries would subtly change to accomodate the fact that the Codex has Tank Commanders now, but it's equally plain that GW intended to stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la la can't hear you!"

Given that they're FW tanks, I'd align myself with FW intentions.

(actually, I'd just take an Armoured Company list and never take a single Guardsman, not even one poking his head out of the top of the tank, thus avoiding the whole question by never picking up the Codex, but that's not really the point.)

Still silly to put Pask in one instead of a generic commander, of course. Not when he could be Rending things in a Punisher.

(I also don't know why you think we don't chop and change upgrades. The XV81 and XV84 battlesuits in Imperial Armour 3 are listed as Signature Systems for a unit in Codex Tau Empire; you add them to the Signature Systems list just like you add the Conqueror and Annihilator to the Leman Russ Squadron entry. Legacies of Glory in Imperial Armour 2 are as much for units in Codex: Space Marines as for the book they're in. To say nothing of the Badab War Chapter Tactics and Characters...)

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P.S. Chronus in a Fellblade!

[Haighus]

Hmmm. I think Chronus is fine to be added to an Excelsior in the same way he seems to be fine for the IA2 vehicles, although I don't think it would be that useful. BS6 is no better than BS5 for the twin-linked sponsons, although the Grav cannon will benefit, and that would make it even more lethal. Also means the vehicle won't be relying on the Rhino for it's BS increase. I think the biggest benefit though will be IWND and the ignoring Shaken and Stunned, which will keep the thing operating at full capacity. Stick a Master of the Forge in there and it will be a tough cookie to break.

Unfortunately, IA2 lists Fellblades as just Super Heavy Vehicle as their unit type, no mention of Tank, so Chronus can't actually go in one :( Would be epic though, as BS5 Quad lascannons would be brutal.

[LCS]

Put Chronus in a Terminus Ultra. For the lulz.

[Haighus]

That is actually an excellent idea... :D He can fix his own tank when it over-heats too...