Bodies Over Bullets

[Fueldrop]

Is it possible to create a list containing more models than it is possible to kill in a 5 round game?

Let's set some parameters:
both sides are 1,500 points.
All rolling is assumed to conform to the law of averages (EG BS3 hits 50% of the time)
Blasts hit 3 targets/shot. Large Blasts hit 6 targets/shot. Templates hit 5 targets/shot. It's assumed that sometimes you hit more, sometimes you hit less, but it averages around there for this experiment.
All non-template weapons can be fired every round. Template weapons can be fired from the second round onwards (exception: flyers come in on the second round).
Due to the fickle nature of maneuvering, we will assume the worst and say that only enemy units get to assault the army, not the other way around.
Any netlist can be used for opposition.

Alternatively, assume 400 casualties inflicted (80 kills per round, doable with some lists)

For the sake of making things easy we will ignore morale for now. We will also assume that the army was trained by the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy, and graduated with full honours (IE the enemy army takes no casualties).

Can it be done? Can a game be won by sheer dint of having too many men for your enemy to stop you?

[Mr Mystery]

Would have to be an army made of extremely rubbish troops, like Grots or Imperial Guard conscripts.

But you know, it actually sounds like a fun game for a one off.

I've played stacked games akin to it before, where one side is horribly outnumbered, but only loses if there's a total wipe out of their forces. One sticks in mind from 2nd Ed at my local store. IG v Nids in a starship troopers assault type game.

Bro and I were sensible, and stashed a single squad survivor in some very dense cover, winning the game through some tricksy cunning. The game was otherwise a complete blast! Not something I'd care to do regularly like, but definitely an event game!

[Tyrendian]

funny and sorta relevant: a Guardsmen on Guardsmen shooting gallery would not do it in five turns (assuming more than 12" distance), because every turn a Guardsman will kill 1/2*1/2*2/3=1/6 of a Guardsman (BS3 chance to hit * S3 vs T3 chance to wound * chance to get through 5+ save) with his flashlight (results using a fleshlight may vary)

[Tokunator]

I am currently building an Imperial Armour 13 Renegades list with 250 bodies in 2000 points, 140 of which return on a 5+ when killed, as well as 15 Sentinels with autocannons and some Rapier Laser Destroyers. Few people can remove that in a normal game. Heck, Draigostar builds just run away crying as gravguns do jack against this.

[Denzark]

The short answer is yes. The medium answer is yes, depending what you use. The slightly longer answer is definitely using unbound, depends on what formations in battle forged. The renegade IA13 has multi spawning troop options and zombies with 4+FNP. The new Warhammer World exclusive blood Oath book has a formation that allows respawning Bloodletters on 4+.

Also needs to factor in cover/LoS which skews your mathhammer to the point of irrelevance.

[Fueldrop]

My "mathhammer" was pretty much absolute worst case scenario. Once you start factoring in cover, range, line of sight, and the fact that most armies aren't exactly built for cutting down endless hordes of infantry, sheer numbers becomes a bit of a more workable tactic.

In an objectives-based battle, having a massed horde of objective secured troops can win the game simply by being impossible to clear off all the objectives. Add some token heavy weapons to pop transports and you can kill off any enemies with objective secured through flashlight spam.

Do Imperial Guard still have that special character with "Send In The Next Wave"?

- - - Updated - - -

Additional question: How many conscripts can an imperial knights spam list kill in 5 turns?

[Denzark]

Fueldrop - I think Chenkov has gone. So no next wave. As for Imperial Knights, there are so many variables. lets assume the knights deploy 12" and all the conscripts are cowering on the baseline, so about 30" away. The Knights will get 2 turns shooting before they charge in and start stomping, which will cause most casualties. I would hope they would kill at least 10 per turn per knight shooting if they are bunched up - although if you stick at 1500pts like you said, you are only getting 4 knights. A lot will depend if they have priests or commissars with them - as no one of any sense would run the mass blob without.

If the mass blob is even further forward the carnage would be quicker.

[Fueldrop]

Welp, there goes the plan for tying up the enemy in a neverending wave of conscripts :(

[Haighus]

Maybe not neverending (I've done it in the past, it was hilarious), but seeing as Conscripts are now 3pts/model, it is only 150pts (175 with Priest/Commissar) for the whole unit, so you can have 2 units per Knight. I think a Knight will struggle to get through 100 Fearless bodies in 5 turns.

Company Command Squad =60pts
Priest x5 =150pts
x5 Meltabombs
Commissar x1 =30pts
x1 Meltabombs

Infantry Platoon =440pts
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad x5
x1 Meltabombs
Conscript Squad (+30 additional Conscripts)

Infantry Platoon =435pts
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad x5
Conscript Squad (+30 additional Conscripts)

Infantry Platoon =385pts
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad x4
Conscript Squad (+30 additional Conscripts)

Total= 1500pts

Has a total of 150 Conscripts, 140 Guardsmen, 6 ICs and 20 men in Command Squads. If you get everything into cover, that will take some removing! :D I added the smattering of melta because there were points spare and it allows them to harm everything... eventually.

It could essentially place a blob squad onto every objective on the board, and everything has Objective Secured.

[Fueldrop]

This I like. I'm not sure my 1750 list would be able to kill that many models in 5 rounds.

[Haighus]

A list made entirely of Scatter Laser jetbikes (so 55 bikes in 1500pts) could do ~80 models of damage per turn to Guardsmen without cover, which would, assuming no casualties to the bikes, kill the Guardsmen above in 4 turns, assuming no wasted wounds, 5 most likely if there were. They almost certainly will take casualties though, and with 4+ cover, it goes down to ~60 casualties per turn, with Go to Ground of the Incoming! order being used on some of the units, it becomes impossible for the jetbikes to remove enough Guardsmen through shooting alone, but maybe possible if they assault on the last turn, or assault squads with very few models left (assaulting large units will probably waste shooting). Either way, unless playing on an open battlefield, the Jetbikes would not be able to kill all the Guardsmen in most scenarios.

A Wraithknight would be pretty useless for the most part shooting at such a list, but Stomps would make an impact. Not sure how quick it could remove an entire unit with stomps though.

[Houghten]

Not if it had two shoulder weapons and a suncannon!

[Fueldrop]

Honestly, if I knew I was coming up against a list like this then you'd be seeing a lot of monofiliment artillery on the field. Even then I doubt it would be enough.

Maybe 3 hemlock wraithfighters working in tandem with a large number of ranger squads? Snipe the IC's making the blobs fearless then use terror tactics to force them to flee? Even then, I'm not sure you could do it in time.

Striking scorpions would have a field day, if they survived the incoming fire long enough to assault.

Actually, that's pretty much the major problem: anything hardy enough to weather this kind of firepower long enough to assault is going to be either a walker, an MC, or a squad of terminators (or bigger versions of the above). Dreadnoughts don't have enough attacks to make their points back in CC against fearless conscripts, nor to most MCs. Terminators are better, as they merely need to kill 13 conscripts each to pay for themselves and that's doable with a squad armed with power claws, but they're also far more vulnerable to being mobbed to death in CC.

Oh god, I just had a vision of a 'nid monster list getting completely roflstomped by wave after wave of humans piling up on them until they collapse from the weight. Anything at toughness 6 or below WILL DIE eventually to sheer weight of strength 3. Anything else is going to get a melta bomb to the face. The only real counter to the pink tide is super-heavies, and because they lack numbers the massive mob will still win.

Do conscripts get grenades? If so, what type?

- - - Updated - - -


Not if it had two shoulder weapons and a suncannon!

even with that, you're shooting at 3pt/model units. Probably in cover too. If they go to ground then your not really going to be doing much with that fancy gun rig. Even if you average 7-8 kills a round shooting that thing, you're only making back 21-24 points per turn.

[Arkhan Land]

i dont think I could shoot all of your models but in an all infantry war perhaps a nid list heavy in broodlords and fear causing devices (MCs, specialized Infantry) could possibly chase many of them off the board without firing a shot...

better include more priests...


also forgot, conscrpits get frags

[Haighus]

There was a Priest/Commissar for every large squad, I didn't bother with Commissars for the Command Squads, didn't think it was worth it. Would probably just hide them behind the blobs, preferably out of LOS, and most likely issuing the Incoming! order.

[Haighus]

Have just worked out a list using the Renegades and Heretics list in IA13 that puts out 446 bodies at 1500pts O.o
Has 24 units of basic Infantry squads, 18 of them with 15 models, 1 with 16 models, and 5 with 30 models with Enforcers attached (Heretic Commissars), with a Command Squad using the Master of the Horde rule, so any of the destroyed Infantry squads is replaced on a 5+ on being destroyed... (hence why most of the squads are the minimum squad size for the rule to take effect, with the large squads being only to take advantage of the Ld buffs). Requires cover though, because most of the units don't have armour saves.

That would be a painful deployment and movement phase...


Removing the Enforcers can extend that to a whopping 483 bodies in 1500pts, the Command squad, 28 16-strong squads, and 2 15-strong squads, in one Objective Secured detachment; still with the returning on a 5+ rule.

[Djbz]

Maybe not neverending (I've done it in the past, it was hilarious), but seeing as Conscripts are now 3pts/model, it is only 150pts (175 with Priest/Commissar) for the whole unit, so you can have 2 units per Knight. I think a Knight will struggle to get through 100 Fearless bodies in 5 turns.

Company Command Squad =60pts
Priest x5 =150pts
x5 Meltabombs
Commissar x1 =30pts
x1 Meltabombs

Infantry Platoon =440pts
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad x5
x1 Meltabombs
Conscript Squad (+30 additional Conscripts)

Infantry Platoon =435pts
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad x5
Conscript Squad (+30 additional Conscripts)

Infantry Platoon =385pts
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad x4
Conscript Squad (+30 additional Conscripts)

Total= 1500pts

Has a total of 150 Conscripts, 140 Guardsmen, 6 ICs and 20 men in Command Squads. If you get everything into cover, that will take some removing! :D I added the smattering of melta because there were points spare and it allows them to harm everything... eventually.

It could essentially place a blob squad onto every objective on the board, and everything has Objective Secured.

I feel obliged to point out that neither Priests nor Commissars have access to melta bombs. (Although infantry squad sergeants do-so they can just be moved to them)

[Haighus]

Really? Damn. Didn't have my Codex with me so I assumed they would. Thanks for the correction :) As you say, they can be shifted to the infantry Sergeants, although I was hoping to give Meltabombs to the Conscripts.

[EVIL INC]

I'd say a lot would also depend on the set up. Items such cover can make a big difference
Also, are you just putting the models outin an effort to get a high body count or are you trying to prevent ting hits? Forample bunched or max distanceorganization to prevent pir plates?
Whatweapons are you firing? heavy bolter spam or pie plate spam? Also, what are the targets? guardsmenor marines?
I think there are too many variables offhand.

[Ravingbantha]

Khorne Daemonkin army with nothing but a Lord and 8 man cultist units.

[Tyrendian]

something to work out for someone with a bit of spare time and a calculator: do those ~450 models even fit into your deployment zone?! I assume so, even if it gets a bit crowded, but even then the close proximity might increase the effectiveness of templates drastically, plus there will never be enough cover for all those models, which also helps with shooting them.

[Fueldrop]

You could always keep some in reserve and have them walk onto the board later. Having your entire deployment zone full of guys is intimidating enough, imagine if on turn 2 more started to walk on!

Also, anyone building their tactics around deep striking will have a very bad day when your swarm arrives :)

[Tyrendian]

Also, anyone building their tactics around deep striking will have a very bad day when your swarm arrives :)

That, and good luck finding a good spot to park your fliers between turns... :)

[Fueldrop]

So... any anti-tank weapons are going to have a hard time making their points back. Stuff like autocannons, normally a very safe pick, will find themselves swamped too. Even stuff like heavy bolters will be barely more effective than standard bolters and at a far higher cost. Thunderhammers, power weapons, power fists... all a waste of points against this unending horde.

On the flip side, burna boyz will be having an absolute ball!

[Mr Mystery]

Wyverns? Anyone? No? Dust? :p

[Haighus]

Wyverns would be somewhat mitigated by splitting everything into smaller squads, because then they are more likely to get overkill and waste wounds by completely wiping units. Especially if in batteries. I'm not sure roughly how many GEQs they kill in a volley though, so it may not really matter if they wipe less than 15/16 in one volley. All the other options have bigger squads to target.

[Jamie Garrett]

I have slowly (over the past two years) built my Imperial Fist 5th company and using the sentinels of terra rules, the hail of bolter fire would make a damn good go at destroying a few hundred models in 5 turns.
I have 8 tactical squads and kit them all out with bolters (Sgt with storm bolter). If you set up 12" away you'll be out of your rhinos and into rapid fire range by turn 2. 160 shots per round, rerolling all misses.
The Math - (not taking into account cover or line of sight) 160 shots, hitting on 3's. Thats 2/3rd hitting (80). Re-rolling 40 and hitting on the same stats adds 27 more hits (rounding up).
107 wounds per round, wounding on 3's (if we're firing at guard) (2/3rd wound). 71 dead per round as Ap5 so no saving throw. Four rounds of that and you have 284 little squished bodies on the floor. That's from 8 tactical squads and rhinos - 1480 points.

[Charistoph]

Wyverns would be somewhat mitigated by splitting everything into smaller squads, because then they are more likely to get overkill and waste wounds by completely wiping units. Especially if in batteries. I'm not sure roughly how many GEQs they kill in a volley though, so it may not really matter if they wipe less than 15/16 in one volley. All the other options have bigger squads to target.

That largely depends on how far apart the units are. Remember, just because enemies have to stay 1" when not Charging, doesn't mean the friendlies don't. And considering how the Wyverns work, hitting multiple targets is not an issue like it would be for the Punishers.

[Darkone]

if it was guard vs guard that wouldnt last 5 turns

[Darkone]

i once used 91 space marines in a 1500pt game but that was in 3rd or 4th ed before they changed it so that devastator squads had to take heavy weapons instead of "can take 4 weapons from the heavy weapons section" basically it went as follows

Captain-Bolter
Tactical squad- Flamer
Tactical squad- Flamer
Tactical squad- Flamer
Tactical squad- Flamer
Tactical squad- Flamer
Tactical squad- Flamer
Devastator squad-
Devastator squad-
Devastator squad-

came in just under 1500 upset all the none marine players as was quite difficult to take on and your basic bolter does alot of damage to low armour.

[FUZNAZ]

something to work out for someone with a bit of spare time and a calculator: do those ~450 models even fit into your deployment zone?! I assume so, even if it gets a bit crowded, but even then the close proximity might increase the effectiveness of templates drastically, plus there will never be enough cover for all those models, which also helps with shooting them.

As your deployment area is (usually) 12" by 72" on a 4ft by 6ft table. As every model only needs one inch of space to be placed (GW's standard bases are an inch in diameter), so 12x72 gives us our area of 864 square inches.

[Arkhan Land]

Lot of bayonet incidents waiting to happen right there..

[Adam Richard Corrigan]

115 dire avengers in 11 squads using the Dire Avenger shrunes making them bs 5 should on average in a 5 turn game kill 632 conscripts without adding the bladestorm that give an extra 115 shots which should kill an extra 63. This is without factoring in the exarchs being bs 6.

[Mr Mystery]

You know, Skitarii Vanguard are an added bugger to this.

They've got frankly ridiculous amounts of anti-light-infantry dakka. Squad of 10, with just an Omni-Spex to reduce those pesky cover saves they're plenty cheap enough to dish out the pain. Main limitation here would be their fairly limited squad max of 10 models.