GW rules - it's not all bad!

[Denzark]

Hey peeps

Recently, I have seen some proper wailing and gnashing of teeth about GW rules - their inconsistencies, balance, frequency of update, etc. I have a few thoughts I will share, quite happy for an informed debate or tell me to walk in a minefield. I have gone in discussion because it is not a rules query per se.

Before I start:

English: Hello, this is not a doom of malantai thread.
Swahili: Jambo, this is not a doom of malantai thread.


1. Quality. Actually, these rules aren't all that bad. Yes some are poorly written and could do with clarity. If they were a total crock of doodoo it wouldn't be fun to play, therefore we would all simply be collectors rather than players. There is some mileage in this system. Whilst I hearken back to the glory days of 2ed, I must admit being able to throw down 60+ minis a side, and get through a game inside of 3 hours using a maximum of 5 books for reference is a good thing.

2. Codex scheduling. Somethings cost different points for the same kit in the same race, some have seen choices go down in points whilst up in effectiveness (insert example of choice). There is usually a tit for tat somewhere in there. Yes I am lucky my races are pretty much up there. But, at a time of recession I would rather GW trot out MEQ number 18 that will sell and keep the company strong, than codex metal zombies which whilst appealing to the fanboys, may lose share price points. I saw a comment on the DE/Nec rumour update where someone who had the tenacity to suggest Vanilla eldar needed an update had a DE player up and try and shove a splinter cannon down their throats. Just chill and good things come to those that wait.

3. Frequency of updates. 'Why can't GW respond directly to fan comments and push updates out as quickly as Warmachine/Magic/FoW (whatever)? You could do it digitally for no cost and put out an adobe update like the much maligned BA WD codex!) Because GW is a British company. The US is the master of customer focussed tertiary service industries. People are still paid to put petrol in your car. In UK you have to get out in the cold and do it yourself. 'Have a nice day' is an honest comment in the US. Here it would be pure sarcasm, if the ill mannered oik could even get beyond a grunt (I know I generalise but in the majority..)
Quite simply, GW doesn't feel any need (morally or culturally) to hugely pander to the the customer like these relatively small companies do - they are making profits, so if you don't like, vote with your feet.

4. Balance - it's all broken wahmbulance needed! If you have no faith in a rough, unperfect, but 'good enough for government work' balance of the game as provided by GW, there is no point in playing. For me its like latin usage - there may be regional variations but it was seen as something universal in medecine for doctors. So why the hell do some people try and add Esperanto into the mix? The only way to have a fair-ish game is to belive in the system - if you don't why would you play and how could you have a pick up anywhere in the world? Having gone to a GW tournament at GW HQ I note all players (from 5+ European countries) managed to get on without comp scores and with the exisitng FAQs, with very few judge queries - the rules are a balanced ish common ground.

So enough of my rant - yes there are a few quibbles and I can't wait to see the Tyranid FAQ. But if you don't like you can vote with your feet.

Ta Ta,

[Madness]

As a person involved in the unspeakable discussion about the unspeakable subject, I want to make clear that I don't think that GW rules are poorly written, they are perfectly written for what I feel is the objective they aspire to:
provide a good basic framework for a game.

Jervis Jonson is the most senior developer left in the studio, and he was a citadel journal buff, for those who don't know the citadel journal was basically a bunch of stories, rules, extras, scenarios, doodles and quirks to be used in all the GW games, from the now-disappeared boardgames (no, not just space hulk, there were others) to new games completely introduced in the Journal. It was a sort of less-canon, low budget, fanzine-looking White Dwarf.

Not to mention how deep is the game, it's not like starcraft (or a game with a limited amount of pre-painted units, or items) in which you can sit down and play the game, you are actually encouraged to BUILD your army, paint it, get emotionally attached to it, give the units names and back-stories. With such an investment, playing it as if it was a variant of chess would be extremely limiting, building around it is on the other hand, empowering.

Just remember, it all came from Rogue Trader which was more of an RPG than a "hard" strategy game.

Sentences like "Billy Bob's Back Alley Battlefield Blast of Bilious Babbling Bolter shells mod" are not only quite insulting to the poor Bob who invested his time in trying to provide novelty, but also a complete disregard of the history of the game and of The Most Important Rule. Not to mention that the very Rulebook "wastes" more than 20 pages in showing us how to do it (250-273).

So, yeah, the Rulebook is well written and does a very good job, unless you actually ask from it to do something it's not really meant to do. For that we have tournament packages and faqs.

Different costs in different codex are not just a matter of different release dates, they are also a matter of different unit value in different frameworks. For instance suppose you had an item that completely prevented the use of psyker powers, in the hand of non psyker race it would have no inherent disadvantage, while in a psyker race codex it would restrict the choices of the owner, so its cost would probably end up being very different. Just like a gun in the hand of a capable shoot (BS4) is more valuable than the same weapon in the hands of a complete incompetent (BS2).

Frequency of updates, this is really a fault of White Dwarf, it could very well host a decent Q&A feature hosted by the actual game developers, in which they could not only answer the people's doubts, but also give semi-official updates to old stuff. Which would also help in getting it play-tested before the "true" release. In fact White Dwarf is a kinda worthless piece of expensive (and yet not too comfortable on the private parts) toilet paper.

Balance, this, as well could be either fixed with custom scenarios (enforcing limits) or White Dwarf errata.

Voting with your feet, while possible, is not granular enough. Can I vote with my feet on just a specific issue? Like I like the game but I don't like the X detail? How do I do that? Do I steal 1 every 20 miniatures I buy and send them an email "I stole/used a different company model/sculpted one on my own, since you clearly don't want to fix the X issue, btw, love the rest of the thing". Specially considering how a LOT of what is 40k now has been done by people that doesn't even work there any more?
This strikes me a little bit as a simplistic way (cop?) out.

[BuFFo]

40k rules are great/perfect because 40k is a hobby, not a strict tournament minded game.

[Madness]

40k rules are great/perfect because 40k is a hobby, not a strict tournament minded game.

How dare you agree with me without being as logorroic as I am.

[chrixter]

>> 'Have a nice day' is an honest comment in the US. Here it would be pure sarcasm, if the ill mannered oik could even get beyond a grunt

LOL. Best today!

>> There is some mileage in this system.

Yes, we've now seen a number of major iterations as well as minor. The rulebase is pretty solid which unfortunately makes the issues of turnaround time for the codices an issue. Having to wait years and year for an army to get an update is really annoying. Obviously GW belives it would hurt sales but honestly - I beg to differ.

The focus of GW is clear - they aim to provide a pretty stable rule and codex base with a slow turnaround time so that there will be minimal confusion on which is the present ruleset. This is naturally very good for those who not plays very often or have time to have keep themself updated. You don't have to check the lastest FAQ simply because you've been out of the loop a few months - very little will have changed. However, this approach hurts the tournament scene and those who like the game to be as correct and "balanced" as possible. Typically you'll find a lot of those online in forum like this.

[Cryl]

Excellent post. Too many recently have turned into name calling or the kind of rules diagnosis you'd expect if they were the requirements for a missile guidance system rather than a set of guidance for moving plastic toy soldiers about on a tabletop.

Sure the rules aren't perfect and the game isn't perfectly balanced but it's close enough for it to be good fun, otherwise we wouldn't be reading this kind of site. Which brings me to another point, the people who read and post here are the fans, typically people with several armies who have been playing for a while. I play with several people who have one army and play maybe once a month sometimes less, they like the game but lack the time or money to play often, they're not bothered if Doom affects embarked troops and they don't care what's in the next BA codex but might read my copy or listen to me tell them about it...

and I've just realised I can't remember where I was going with that so I'll stop other than to say that this a toy soldiers game with great sci-fi setting, nice models and it's pretty fun to play too... surely that's good enough? Certainly is for me.

[Renegade]

As a basic frame work for a fun game, the rules are great. They are not over simplistic, but neither do you need a PHD to use them. In the back of the rule book it even shows how create sinarios that would bring a Magic Tards playing to a jibbering reck with the way they play with the rules, and I think that is the point. These are not rules that are hard and fast set, they are rules to have a bit of fun with or play about with.
In some ways the tourney group who want a FAQ for this, or shout CREEP or BROKEN, need to go back and read through the book to its fullest, and I guess that GW probably get sick of reading a lot of the complaints and don't release them, it's about the hobby and the game is NOT about the tourniment players, it about having a bit of fun and using abit of imagination (see rule book, its the very first rule!) Some of the rule debates make me miss 4&5ed WHFB, for simplar days, when one didn't even care about lead poisioning from the figures they were using, but about gluing ones fingers together.

[chrixter]

On a side note, here is an excellent interview with Rick Priestly and John Stallard:

http://www.battlegames.co.uk/documents/BG_HH-RP-JS-interview_unabridged.pdf

Lots of interesting information on the early uears of wargaming and GW in general.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Once again, man from God's Country (good god!) I have to agree with you. It's a game, and designed as a casual environment to play with little guys we put a bit of effort into.

You look at 40k, though, and I want to know why other people moan about it. I look at Flames of War, Rules of Engagement, Urban War/Metropolis, and it makes me want to stab a monkey in the eye with a ninja. The game works, is fast paced, has great plastic models, and is short paced. Everything I need to enjoy a game with a mate, pack up, and head off to the Indians' for a take away. You look at rules in other games, and people down the LGS are still arguing about how mortars fire, and over how hedges and crap work. You do that and get frustrated, I'll enjoy my SPESS MERHEENS taking on space elves, fungus men, and fish communists from outer space.

[Kahoolin]

For what it's worth I agree with you. The game is fine, in fact I think it's fun and that's why I play it. I enjoy the retro, rough and ready rules. I loved Dungeons & Dragons, but when D&D went 4th Edition and turned into a pen and paper MMO I lost interest, because the 70's game I knew and loved seemed totally gone. I don't want GW games to be ironclad and balanced for tournament play because that would change what they are.

You get a lot of complaining online because the internet seems to be turning into a harmless outlet for mass hysteria. Also, as someone said before, people chatting on a wargames forum really care about wargames. They are vocal and intense commentators.

The funny thing is, right now you're getting only the people who agree with you in the thread. Any minute now the "you can still have tight rules and have a fun game/GW has a responsibility to their customers" crowd is going to show up in here and start breaking chairs and overturning tables :D

[BuFFo]

For what it's worth I agree with you. The game is fine, in fact I think it's fun and that's why I play it. I enjoy the retro, rough and ready rules. I loved Dungeons & Dragons, but when D&D went 4th Edition and turned into a pen and paper MMO I lost interest, because the 70's game I knew and loved seemed totally gone. I don't want GW games to be ironclad and balanced for tournament play because that would change what they are.

A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+


The funny thing is, right now you're getting only the people who agree with you in the thread. Any minute now the "you can still have tight rules and have a fun game/GW has a responsibility to their customers" crowd is going to show up in here and start breaking chairs and overturning tables :D

Yeah, it is called Warmachine/Hordes. I play it myself, and both games are lime comparing a Granny Apple to a Washington Apple. Both are apples, but both taste different. Don't bite into one complaining that it doesn't taste like the other.

[Fellend]

See the whole rule discussion is done by nerds that have to much time, invest to much emotions into this and REALLY REALLY want to use their grammar skills so they can win against everyone else. The problem is that when there's alot of discussion based on the poor wording of GW they could fix it.
They read the forums, they encounter the questions unlike everyone else they could just go the creator and ask did you intend for the Doom to hit people in vehicles? No? Okay let's print that. We are talking about something that takes five minutes. Frak give me his number and I can call and ask him myself.

Instead they do nothing about it. It's annoying, Imagine someone suddenly adding a new rule to soccer (or basketball, whatever you play in the US) and not explaning it. Half of the teams would do it one way the other half would do it the other way. Now the fans of soccer are all drunk scottish men armed with led pipes and booze, unlike in warhammer where two nerds shout at each other in a girly way, the scottish would beat the living warp out of each other.

Would anyone accept such a situation? Of course not. Someone would sit down and decide this is the way it is. The rule would be clarified and everyone would be able to move on, one side would be slightly miffed but they'd have to live with it, grumbling and muttering as the move on.

We are not asking much of a multimillion dollar company. We just want them to take five minutes and answer questions. Hell they could have a segment in White Dwarf called Ask Angeron. Where stupid rule questions are sent in and answered by the game creators. Giving us some incentive to by the WD.



But in the end. GW has produced a great game. The rules usually work, the updates are coming in a nice tempo and the new models are awesome. The game is changing and it's hard for some of the old guard to accept that which is new but as a new player. Hell i don't know much how it was, is supposed to be or what will come and I'll happily play the game, as long as it's with decent people who tell me rules beforehand. If not I can always beat them over the head with their Storraven lander and shove the doom down their throat.

[Madness]

I love how people is agreeing deeply with something the OP didn't say.

In fact he's known for having said the opposite (case 1 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=59116&postcount=12), case 2 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=59154&postcount=15), in both he's asking for rules that are more sturdy.)

[Kahoolin]

I love how people is agreeing deeply with something the OP didn't say.

In fact he's known for having said the opposite (case 1 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=59116&postcount=12), case 2 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=59154&postcount=15), in both he's asking for rules that are more sturdy.)I don't know about everyone else but I'm responding to what he said in his OP in this thread, where he did in fact say it doesn't bother him that the rules aren't the tightest. If we're going to start having to take into account people's entire opus every time they write something we're pretty quickly going to find everyone contradicts themselves from time to time :)


They read the forums, they encounter the questions unlike everyone else they could just go the creator and ask did you intend for the Doom to hit people in vehicles? No? Okay let's print that. We are talking about something that takes five minutes. Frak give me his number and I can call and ask him myself.I reckon even if you called Robin Cruddace and he personally posted a note on the GW website saying "this is an official ruling, from this day forth blah blah blah" it would still be controversial. What does he know? He only wrote the codex! There would be a huge argument online about whether codex writers were qualified to write rules.

There's no real voice of authority in this game, that's the problem. GW is the only possible authority and they abdicate that responsibility on purpose by saying players can change the rules however they want as long as they both agree. Some people like that, others freak out about it, but that's the way it is.

[Subject Keyword]

I'm... Basically OK with how unbalanced 40K is...
I feel like if I were trying to play a game for grown-ups I'd play Flames of War.
Just sayin'.

[Denzark]

I love how people is agreeing deeply with something the OP didn't say.

In fact he's known for having said the opposite (case 1 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=59116&postcount=12), case 2 (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=59154&postcount=15), in both he's asking for rules that are more sturdy.)




1. Quality. Actually, these rules aren't all that bad. Yes some are poorly written and could do with clarity. If they were a total crock of doodoo it wouldn't be fun to play, therefore we would all simply be collectors rather than players. There is some mileage in this system. Whilst I hearken back to the glory days of 2ed, I must admit being able to throw down 60+ minis a side, and get through a game inside of 3 hours using a maximum of 5 books for reference is a good thing.



Nice try madness, but ever so slightly and subtly wrong: What I am saying in both of these examples you have given is simply that people who want tight rules aren't the brain dead heretics worthy of such scorn as they receive from certain quarters (currently you and Buffo), purely for wanting what they spend money on (rulebook) to rule on matters.

Those posts are on how they are treated, this post merely illustrates an opinion on the issue they are being harangued for - as you can see in red above I don't call the rules perfect, I get on with it, and encourage others to - whilst not hassling those who don't think they ought to.

Any ambiguity is because of a lack of tightness of expression on my part - a gentleman may not always say what he means, but always means what he says...

[BuFFo]

I feel like if I were trying to play a game for grown-ups I'd play Flames of War.

If I wanted to play a game for grown ups I would play 40k, instead of other janky wargames.

[Gotthammer]

Imagine someone suddenly adding a new rule to soccer (or basketball, whatever you play in the US) and not explaning it. Half of the teams would do it one way the other half would do it the other way. Now the fans of soccer are all drunk scottish men armed with led pipes and booze, unlike in warhammer where two nerds shout at each other in a girly way, the scottish would beat the living warp out of each other.


Isn't that the offside rule? ;)

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Fellend]

Isn't that the offside rule? ;)

Touché but it's always been my understanding that men that actually play and watch sports have understanding of the offside rule. It was just girls and nerds like me that didn't.

[DarkLink]

I feel like if I were trying to play a game for grown-ups I'd play Flames of War.
Just sayin'.

I think if I were to play a game for grownups, I'd play, I dunno, football or something. Playing with toy soldiers isn't exactly "grown up":p.

[Madness]

Fellend you are indeed wise and great and will sit at the right hand of Allah.

100% agreement from me.

These things are not called "Suggestions for playing Warhammer 40K" its not called the "Suggestion Book"
they are RULES which by their very definition should be clearly defined and understood by those taking part.

And before certain male appendages jump on and suggest I take up another game, Most normal people where I come from understand this simple and basic fact so I don't have a problem.

Is it all bad? not really. But as a long term investor in this company I do reserve the right to moan, ***** and whine about it as I see fit!
That's still kind of extreme, consider that there's a large population of players that never actually took the time to read the rulebook, and that there's nothing wrong with that.

You go at your gaming club or FLGS and play with people, you don't play the rulebook, you play the people, if the group is used to house rule stuff, you're better off knowing the altered rule than the original one, since the original one won't do you any actual good!

[silashand]

The US is the master of customer focussed tertiary service industries. People are still paid to put petrol in your car.

LOL. Those places are few and far between nowadays, even in the USA. TBH, I haven't seen one in 10+ years, though I know some still exist :).


Quite simply, GW doesn't feel any need (morally or culturally) to hugely pander to the the customer like these relatively small companies do - they are making profits, so if you don't like, vote with your feet.

While I agree with your post in almost its entirety, I personally have "voted with my wallet" the past year or so (about when the Goldswords came out for WFB). GW produce some fantastic models (except for the new minotaurs - blech!) and I happen to truly enjoy their games, but I just don't think the value for money they provide is worth it anymore except in the odd instance (Skaven Doomwheel, 40K terrain sets, etc.). I really have migrated to FoW, La Salle and am looking to dig out my Menoth army for WARMACHINE in the near future. In the interim I have finally gotten around to painting some of the minis that have been gathering dust in my closet for years. I guess that's one positive benefit of GW's incessant price rises, right? JMO anyway...

Cheers, Gary

[Denzark]

Silas I know what you mean - stopped buying new armies, flogged off 2 old ones, the only time I buy GW (as opposed ebay or games discount site ie Maelstrom Games) is when I need something specific or immediately.

[BuFFo]

That's still kind of extreme, consider that there's a large population of players that never actually took the time to read the rulebook, and that there's nothing wrong with that.

You go at your gaming club or FLGS and play with people, you don't play the rulebook, you play the people, if the group is used to house rule stuff, you're better off knowing the altered rule than the original one, since the original one won't do you any actual good!

You understand how the game IS.

Not many people do now a days. Bravo :)

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Aldramelech]

I apologize for the double post but:

"Actually, common courtesy is playing by the rules"

This piece of pure gold is brought to you by BuFFo

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=5662&page=2

[Madness]

@Aldramelech: that's honestly kind of naive, yes, apparently no one plays the game (again, you might want to read page 2, at the top) that is defined by RAW interpretation of the rulebook.

I assure you that most of the players I met learned the rules by having them explained to them by fellow players and NEVER EVER took the time to read (let alone study in depth) the rulebook. And I met my fair share of players.

Also usually it's only the sore losers and the munchkins that go back and forth to the book, most laid back players (again, among those I know) just roll it out or pick a consensus fluff-based choice. That's not to say that knowing how to play the RAW game is a munchkin thing, but there's surely more munchkins inside rule-lawyers than there are outside.

But that's fine. I mean, they seem to be having a great time playing their (apparently) *******ized version of the game, why should anyone force them to change? Just because that someone wants to play what is the (apparently) REAL 40k?

Yeah sure, you might pitch them with the idea, and they might accept it, but they also might say "thanks, but no thanks" and keep enjoying what they enjoy doing.

Many sports/games/other things are born by *******ization of the rules, just think of the sheer amount of chess variants.
Does that make chess variants players worse people? Or worse standard chess players? Actually in my experience most experienced chess players also play one or two variants (the most popular I've met is exploding chess, in which the 8 adjacent cells are emptied when a piece gets eaten), which is great to variate things.

Regarding what people wants, I've met my first complaints about unclear rules in the forums. Not because of a lack of loopholes or bugs in the rules, but because no one could care less.


"Actually, common courtesy is playing by the rules"You got him there.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Madness]

The depiction you gave of your reality is very close to my experience, with the difference of 40k creating all that fuss, or us contacting the developers (very few speak a good english, and international calls are expensive) so we tend to house rule a lot of stuff.

You're absolutely allowed to ask GW for better rules, and GW is absolutely free to ignore you, and you have no rights that will force them to do your bidding.
They sold you a game that works well enough, you wanted it to work better, either give it back, or keep it and use it however you want.

GW doesn't owe you anything.

[Fellend]

Of course everyone has their local house rules. Hell some of my best games have been played in made up missions. (Ah... the ambush campaign =) But in the end I'm one of those people that play a game according to the rules. I get very upset if people cheat or start to suddenly use their own house rules. If it's been agreed to before hand then sure. But if they suddenly spring on me "Well all bolters are ap3 because it's more fluffy" I'll kindly ask them to take their bolters and shove them.

Once again, imagine any other game, what if one soccerteam decided that off side didn't count anymore. The other team would just be standing there going "WTF?". And then they'd talk to the Umpire who'd agree with them (hopefully). In warhammer the Umpire is the rulebook. It's that simple. If you play someone and you haven't agreed on anything special what is said in the rulebook is the rules which are used. Otherwise you aren't playing wh40k.

And GW makes and charges us for the rulebook. Saying this is the game you are playing. This is what you've payed for. We can't make them write better rules or force them to do faqs (well with terrorism I'm sure we can but that's really beside the point) but we can be really annoyed that they don't do a better job for the money we are paying them. Saying they are doing a so so job doesn't make it better. Our time, patience and occasionally feelings are hurt because they are lazy grotfarmers.

[BuFFo]

I apologize for the double post but:

"Actually, common courtesy is playing by the rules"

This piece of pure gold is brought to you by BuFFo

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=5662&page=2

I fail to see how quoting me, then posting a link to a thread where I am "right" because OTHER people can't read ALL THE WORDS in a rule, is somehow showing me in the negative?

Thank you?

[Aldramelech]

No, you really wouldn't would you

[Subject Keyword]

I think if I were to play a game for grownups, I'd play, I dunno, football or something. Playing with toy soldiers isn't exactly "grown up":p.

Oh, yeah...
You're right.
Hmmm...

[gcsmith]

yes and so is diving like a girl hmmm

[Subject Keyword]

yes and so is diving like a girl hmmm

Wha...?