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Lupin
08-04-2009, 06:24 PM
Hi, i play IG for maybe 2 years now and even with the new codex that is supposed to help a lot, i still cant find a way to win. I still enjoy the game for what it is, a good moment with friends but a win from time to time would be fun.

I've read a lot on tactics, i tried mechanized, lot of infantry etc. but no success yet. And most of the time, not even close. Am i missing something or am i just a bad player... :rolleyes:

Most of the time i play against SM, Eldar, Necrons, Ork and Tau.

Any help from IG veterans is welcome.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-04-2009, 07:46 PM
Well I'm not a veteran IG player, but I would like to help. Can we have a look at your list for starters?

grimm
08-04-2009, 08:32 PM
Well I'm not a veteran IG player, but I would like to help. Can we have a look at your list for starters?

Seconded. The first part of advice is knowing what to give.

Chumbalaya
08-04-2009, 08:52 PM
Also, what sort of armies do your regular opponents run?

Typical board size, terrain set ups, and missions played would be helpful too.

Generally, IG are all about the dakka. With a mech list, you bring lots of armor, lots of shots, lots of pie plates, lots of flamers, and lots of melta.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-05-2009, 05:41 AM
What Chumbalaya said and also HEAVY WEAPONS! IG need HEAVY WEAPONS! I've been quite surprised by the number of times I've seen IG without heavy weapons who get shot to pieces and can't return effective fire.

cybertuna
08-05-2009, 06:19 AM
I don't know that I fully agree with the heavy weapons thing. I would say that heavies are a must if you are going with an infantry-heavy list, at which point the heavy weapons teams are a total must, but with my list, I substitute Veterans in Chimeras/Valkyries for standard infantry, and just go with lots of special weapons and the occasional demo charge in lieu of heavies. I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing to throw heavies in there too...I just find them to be wasted points in an army as mobile as mine.

DoctorEvil
08-05-2009, 06:29 AM
First off, there is nothing wrong with being a bad player & there is nothing wrong with losing. Most people are bad players to begin with, and many people go through long losing streaks.

The big questions are....

Do you feel like you're becoming a better player each time you play?

Do you learn something from each defeat?

Do you keep making the same mistakes?

I didn't win a single game the first 10 times I played 40K, but I always got a little better with each defeat because learned from the experience. One of the most important things to do after losing a battle is to talk with your opponent about it. Ask them what they feel about the game. Did they notice any major mistakes you made? When did they know they had the game? Things like that.

While you can come here and get critical analysis of your army list (which is important for optimizing your army) & how to best play it in general, it's harder for to give more overall general tactical. Things like board set-up, deployment, what to keep in reserve, etc....tend to be things we learn from experience. Sometimes those types of things are harder to recoginize and learn than armylist optimization.

vman
08-05-2009, 06:40 AM
Its all a learning experience

Do you know the rules inside out? Are you perhaps missing out on key elements that could be used to your advantage?

As a guard player i would say stay away from assault

Are you using reserves?

Over the years i have seen the game evolve a little and each time its changed, the game system has become more complex... with each evolution of a new edition comes different stratergies of playing. Try to understand the game a bit better if you can.

Also think about what makes IG strong? What is working for everyone else around here? feed of other people success stories

Since you havnt posted a list im going to assume perhaps your army is not that large???

IF so take it one step at a time. Devise what you really need for your list not just what you have. If you dont have much money play smaller games but only buy things that are beneficial to your army

Dont stress mate theres plenty of time to hone ur skills

Lupin
08-05-2009, 06:58 AM
I learn, i make less and less mistakes each game and surely becoming a better player each time but its taking so much longer than i expected...

In list optimization, i think i am not that bad, ive read a lot and im not disapointed with my list except that i always have the feeling that i am missing a key element.

Last time i played, it was 1500 pts against SM

CCS 4 plas & PF
PCS PF & 2 plas & 1 las
Squad Las / plas
squad las / plas
vet 3 melta
3 vendetta
LR executioner
2 medusa with BBS

in more regular games, i tend for

CCS 4 flamer, PF, astropath in chimera
PBS in chimera
Rambo
PCS 4 flamers, PF
3 squad AC & GL
vet 3 melta & bastonne
valk MRP
hellhoud
LRBT
LRBT
LR demo

not sure of points but its about that...

thanks!

Majorcrash
08-05-2009, 08:13 AM
I guess I have a little different take, I want troops, troops, troops. I make my CC a static unit. His job is to give orders, improve morale, and use superior BS to kill hard targets. My 1st platoon is my mobile element, PC sqd armed with meltas and plasmas, a commissar to keep them going. 3 squads with plasmas and a Spc wpn squad with meltas. 2 minumum squads of storm troopers to be a pain in the *** and take objectives. A sencond platoon which is my gun line PC with lascannon, 2 squads with missles and grenades. 5 ratlings snipers to disrupt movement. 3 sct sentinels with multillasers to flank. and finally 2 sqdrs of Russ's. 1st one MBT and a vanquisher with plasma / lasC. 2nd Sqdr MBT and Executioner with plama / LasC. I use my first platoon to advance and engage. followed closely by the 2nd Sqdr of Russes. The 1st sqdr act like artillery swamping any enemy gunline. My 2nd platoon doesnt move and hold my objectives and shot all game. Any assaulting units are shotup by the advancers and then assaulted piecemeal. You will take heavy casualties, but their guard. kinda like doritos. will make more. Byt he way I recently added the plasmas on the Vanqushers as with the new rules if thiers no hvy armor against me its almost usless. But with the sponsons its great for killing Termies. fun to watch the dreads run and hide when its around. Well here's my thoughts, not always successful but i have a 70% win rate. Terrain and deployment are huge and no amount of list buliding will overcome poor deployment.

Majorcrash
08-05-2009, 08:14 AM
by the way thats an 1850 list,

Lupin
08-05-2009, 09:16 AM
No chimera at all?

what kind of strategies you guys use? castle? movement?

im trying to understand what i am missing...

Drunkencorgimaster
08-05-2009, 11:51 AM
I suck with them too and I have been playing for years. I am more into the concept and the modelling than winning. My kid does well with them though and I notice that he takes more artillery than I do, so that is a thought.

Majorcrash
08-05-2009, 12:06 PM
No chimera at all?

what kind of strategies you guys use? castle? movement?

im trying to understand what i am missing...

To many points and i want to be shooting all the time. A chimera is about the same price as a squad and a lot more vunerable to hvy wpns. I freely admit i cant pull off a Mech guard army. Always end the same way burning vehicle and dead squads. I am using less sentinel the normal, but thats because of point increases more then anything else. But back to your question, my strategie is movement and drawing them into crossfire.

Lupin
08-05-2009, 12:26 PM
i think i always had trouble with lanes of fire, kind of "setup" problem... i think i may have to read again on deployment, any thoughts?

and since the 5th edition, almost never used the lasgun for some reason... they can do nothing or i have to move or they dont have the range or what happens the most, i get charged before i can use them efficiently.

and for the artillery... what do you think of squadrons?

Majorcrash
08-05-2009, 12:37 PM
i think i always had trouble with lanes of fire, kind of "setup" problem... i think i may have to read again on deployment, any thoughts?

and since the 5th edition, almost never used the lasgun for some reason... they can do nothing or i have to move or they dont have the range or what happens the most, i get charged before i can use them efficiently.

and for the artillery... what do you think of squadrons?

Well deployment is key. have to look for lanes of fire. Which way are they most likely to come at you. Also terrain is your friend. I like 8-10 pieces if I can get it. Lasguns suck, many times called flashlights. But with enough those flashlight can blind and burn. Rapid fire, plus spc wpns will kill a few than that squad gets eaten. the next squad takes out a few more and then they die. All the while your tanks and other heavy wpns are taking their toll as well. The key to me is numbers, you may have 6-7 squads and if their luck with the exception of orcs will have maybe half or less. Make them roll dice they can't roll 3+ forever. PLus alot of this is psychology, i've know a lot of marine /CM player that as they start tearing up yoou army lose sight of the mission. Yeah they killed half your army, but at games end you hold the objective and the win. IG used to be a underdog army. But not anymore, we are so spoiled for choises it almost scares me for what the next codexs will have..............:confused:

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 03:00 AM
My first gut feeling of your list Lupin is that it has a LOT of toys and not enough troops. I whole heartedly agree with Majorcash, TROOPS TROOPS TROOPS! What have your Vendetta's been killing in your games? Your regular list seems a bit more balanced but I still think that you need more troops. Valks are nice but they require finesse to field properly.

How are you losing your games? Your troops getting wiped out? Not being able to hold objectives?

Majorcrash
08-06-2009, 06:57 AM
one note, i played a game on sunday where i combined my 1st platoon in to one big mob. 3 squads, cmd and spc spn. they did ok . but they're super unwieldy. And I lost the whole unit to close cmbt, when I failed a morale test and then fail the Intiv test. Losing theat many troops in one go was devestating and I couldnt even pull a draw at that point.

Lupin
08-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Ok, so if i get this the simplest i can.

many troops and artillery, let the other toys aside for a while...

what do you do with your troops, half with big guns to stay and shoot and other half to go forward and try to slow down ennemies?

id take AC/GL for the gun lines and PW/plasma for the advancing troops.... what do you think?

didnt have much success with commissars yet...

bob
08-06-2009, 07:15 AM
You might want to remove heavy weapons from the infantry squads and change the special weapons out of the command squads, giving them ccw weapons for counter attacking and concentrate all heavy weapons so it's easier to bring to bear and of course make sure you use the russ right

Majorcrash
08-06-2009, 07:49 AM
Artillery is really iffy, but if you like them go for it. Although I think a russ is almost the point cost. Grenade launchers are good, but plasma and meltas are better. I agree with Bob but leave a few hvy wpns. Missle launcher or auto cannons. lascannons only if you dont have them on anything else. Hvy bolters arnt worth it.
I will disagree with one thing. Giving CCW to your cmd squads are almost pointless. Once they get tied up only the officers and commissars count, everyone is ablative armor.

havign toys like valkryies and sentinels are what give your army flavor, not whats going to save it. Chimeras if you can make thjem work are a good value. ( I just can't make them work for me).

One note on commissars, they are there to bloster your cmd squad. GIves you another pwr wpn/ pwr fist and a boost to your leadership. THe reason i lost that combined squad was i took a hit on my commissar and didnt have the reroll he would have provided.

Lord Inquisitor
08-06-2009, 08:07 AM
I usually choose meltas over plasmas. Also make sure you get enough flamers spread out through your army. I don't always like to give my command squads full weapon load outs if I can spread the points around a little.

Majorcrash
08-06-2009, 10:24 AM
I usually choose meltas over plasmas. Also make sure you get enough flamers spread out through your army. I don't always like to give my command squads full weapon load outs if I can spread the points around a little.

I like metlas too, but there is something nice about reaching out 24" with AP2 goodness. I know its not good for the guards man but , will make more. Grenade launchers for awhile were my favorite, just for the versatility. But with 5 ed rules on blasts, i take them less often. Mostly for my static squads. As far as flamers go, I hate the short range, love that the guard low BS isnt a concern, but usually i get one use and its not a certain kill,(like plasma or melta) before the owning squad is destroyed.

Lupin
08-06-2009, 11:57 AM
can you show me what kind of list you use? im just curious to compare with mine...

Slann
08-06-2009, 12:25 PM
Gave a quick scan of the thread , I am very successful with guard and I play with a tough group of tournament hard core gamers there list are tight with little fat so it forces me to do the same , although I am known to run fun theme driven lists and still pull off the win .

I see in your list you have no direction except for get as many plasma guns as you can , that was good last edition but a lot has changed , melta guns are really the only reliable AV14 killers now a day so you want alot of them . instead of pick apart your list Il give you one of my successful lists and tell you why it works and going by your list it seems like your not that far off .

HQ- command squad , las cannon team , master of fleet in a chimera
This is cheap and with the las cannon its a nice way to get a BS 4 las cannon in the list , no power fist this squad is better off sitting in the chimera giving orders to your line and shooting it las cannon , when there is good cover I keep them out of transport and have it roam around blocking fire lanes or getting in the way of assaults .

infantry command
heavy flamer , flamer , 2 melta gun , in a chimera
this squad really can be a pain , its small but can dish out the hurt on light armored infantry , I keep them in the chimera shoot out of the hatches and get out only if there is a good chance to get in a really nice flame template on a unit , they are not bad at taking down tanks either .

3x infantry squads melta gun , in chimera
these are to gun for objectives stay in there transport fire from the hatch only to get out last turn to claim stuff
commissar in one squad

infantry squad melta - these ride in the vendetta

infantry command
auto cannon 2x grenade launchers
3x infantry platoon auto cannon , grenade launcher
commissar in one squad
This is my line they fire at light vehicles and troops and cover my transport teams , they hang back and protect close by objectives if I have too I will forgo the last turn or two of shooting to use the move move move order to claim near by objectives .

veteran squad 3 melta
they ride in a Valkyrie and tank hunt sometimes I give them demo charge its fun , they are also used to claim objectives by swooping in from the valk .

5 man storm trooper squad 2 melta x 2
these small squads always deep strike , they go after armor thats tucked away in cover they are also good at landing on the other side of cover and and taking out shootie eldar hiding behind walls with there ap 3 las guns .

Valkyrie las cannon
vendetta

leman russ BT x2
these sit back with my line and do what they do best

vanquisher with knight commander Pask
this just kills tanks right from turn one

This is my list its very mobile with a decent fire base watching its back , in objective games this list runs very smooth has enough speed to grab objectives with 5 chimeras and 2 valks , I can be all over the place and all those transports offer nice fire power , I give heavy flamer multi laser to my chimeras this is nice for taking out light transports and speeders and good at getting light infantry out of cover . Everything stays in there transports til the last second when they grab and contest objectives .

In kill points I mob up both infantry squads let the transports cover each other and block assaults . With smoke and finding good cover they can do ok for themselves , the valks are moving fast most of the time . The storm troopers usually hide out for this mission . My tanks usually can grab up a good amount of KP the vanquisher shines here popping as much armor as possible , and my first rank second rank fire on the huge blobbed up squads can surprise units when they venture too close . This is also the reason I take a single commissar in those 2 infantry platoons so when I mob up they are 2 stubborn 35 man squads .

I hope this helps out .

Majorcrash
08-06-2009, 12:26 PM
HQ
Company Command Squad;
CC
lasguns, cls cmbt wpns, frags, vox (5), 2x grenade launcher, (10)

Lascannon (20),


Elites
Ratling Snipers x5
sniper rifle, las pistol, infiltrate, stealth

Storm trooper squad x5
sgt
carapace armor, hotshot lasgun, hotshot las pistol, cls cmbt wpn, frag and krak.
deep strike, special operations. Meltagun (10)

Storm trooper squad x5
sgt
carapace armor, hotshot lasgun, hotshot las pistol, cls cmbt wpn, frag and krak.
deep strike, special operations. Meltagun (10)


Troops

Infantry platoon
guardsman
Platoon cmder
plasma pistol (10), pwr wpn (10)
Commissar
pwr wpn (10), Plasma Pistol (10)
lasgun, , 2X meltaguns (20), vox caster (5), krak grenades (5)
cls cmbt wpn, frags, medipack (30){Ignore wound}

Infantry squad
sgt
lasguns, plasma rifle (15), frags, cls cmbt wpn, vox (5), sgt melta bombs (5)

Infantry squad
sgt
lasguns, plasma rifle (15), frags, cls cmbt wpn, vox (5), sgt melta bombs (5)

Infantry squad
sgt
lasguns, plasma rifle (15), frags, cls cmbt wpn, vox (5), sgt melta bombs (5)

Special wpns squad
lasguns, cls cmbt wpn, 3x meltaguns (30),


Troops
Infantry platoon
guardsman
lasgun, lascannon (20), 2x grenade launcher (10)
cls cmbt wpn, frags,
Platoon cmder
laspistol, cls cmbt wpn, frags

Infantry squad
sgt
lasguns, grenade launcher (5), missle laucher (15), frags, cls cmbt wpn.

Infantry squad
sgt
lasguns, grenade launcher (5), missle laucher (15), frags, cls cmbt wpn.

Fast Attack
Scout Sentinels
2xMultilaser,Autocannon, move thru cover, scouts, open topped


Hvy Support
Leman Russ Battle tank Squadron
searchlight, smoke launchers, lumbering behemoth, Hvy bolter, pintel hvy stubbber (10),
Hvy bolter sponsons (20)

Leman Russ Executioner
searchlight, smoke launchers, lumbering behemoth, Hvy bolter, pintel hvy stubbber (10),
plama cannon sponsons (40)


Leman Russ Battle tank Squadron
Leman Russ Vanquisher tank
searchlight, smoke launchers, lumbering behemoth, lascannon (15),
(2d6 for penetration), plama cannon sponsons (40)

Leman Russ Battle tank
searchlight, smoke launchers, lumbering behemoth, Lascannon (15), pintel hvy stubbber (10),
Hvy bolter sponsons (20)

Majorcrash
08-06-2009, 12:32 PM
Gave a quick scan of the thread , I am very successful with guard and I play with a tough group of tournament hard core gamers there list are tight with little fat so it forces me to do the same , although I am known to run fun theme driven lists and still pull off the win .

I see in your list you have no direction except for get as many plasma guns as you can , that was good last edition but a lot has changed , melta guns are really the only reliable AV14 killers now a day so you want alot of them . instead of pick apart your list Il give you one of my successful lists and tell you why it works and going by your list it seems like your not that far off .

HQ- command squad , las cannon team , master of fleet in a chimera
This is cheap and with the las cannon its a nice way to get a BS 4 las cannon in the list , no power fist this squad is better off sitting in the chimera giving orders to your line and shooting it las cannon , when there is good cover I keep them out of transport and have it roam around blocking fire lanes or getting in the way of assaults .

infantry command
heavy flamer , flamer , 2 melta gun , in a chimera
this squad really can be a pain , its small but can dish out the hurt on light armored infantry , I keep them in the chimera shoot out of the hatches and get out only if there is a good chance to get in a really nice flame template on a unit , they are not bad at taking down tanks either .

3x infantry squads melta gun , in chimera
these are to gun for objectives stay in there transport fire from the hatch only to get out last turn to claim stuff
commissar in one squad

infantry squad melta - these ride in the vendetta

infantry command
auto cannon 2x grenade launchers
3x infantry platoon auto cannon , grenade launcher
commissar in one squad
This is my line they fire at light vehicles and troops and cover my transport teams , they hang back and protect close by objectives if I have too I will forgo the last turn or two of shooting to use the move move move order to claim near by objectives .

veteran squad 3 melta
they ride in a Valkyrie and tank hunt sometimes I give them demo charge its fun , they are also used to claim objectives by swooping in from the valk .

5 man storm trooper squad 2 melta x 2
these small squads always deep strike , they go after armor thats tucked away in cover they are also good at landing on the other side of cover and and taking out shootie eldar hiding behind walls with there ap 3 las guns .

Valkyrie las cannon
vendetta

leman russ BT x2
these sit back with my line and do what they do best

vanquisher with knight commander Pask
this just kills tanks right from turn one

This is my list its very mobile with a decent fire base watching its back , in objective games this list runs very smooth has enough speed to grab objectives with 5 chimeras and 2 valks , I can be all over the place and all those transports offer nice fire power , I give heavy flamer multi laser to my chimeras this is nice for taking out light transports and speeders and good at getting light infantry out of cover . Everything stays in there transports til the last second when they grab and contest objectives .

In kill points I mob up both infantry squads let the transports cover each other and block assaults . With smoke and finding good cover they can do ok for themselves , the valks are moving fast most of the time . The storm troopers usually hide out for this mission . My tanks usually can grab up a good amount of KP the vanquisher shines here popping as much armor as possible , and my first rank second rank fire on the huge blobbed up squads can surprise units when they venture too close . This is also the reason I take a single commissar in those 2 infantry platoons so when I mob up they are 2 stubborn 35 man squads .

I hope this helps out .

to be honest our list are very similar, except your use of transports. I currently dont have any valkryes, but that will change soon. We both make use of a static gun line and than a mobile front. I'm not using any special characters, but thats mostly from having played since the old RT days and everyone stayed away from Special characters. (call cheesey if you did) I am intersted in trying out both pask and marlbo just for fun.

Slann
08-06-2009, 12:49 PM
The transports are the key to the list they let you get stuff where is has to be and protects them the new vehicle damage chart makes transports a lot tougher than the last edition , chimeras are probably one of the best transports as well cheap a lot of fire power good front armor , and those hatches allow you even more fire power .

Majorcrash
08-06-2009, 01:52 PM
I wont disagree, A good friend of mine plays an all mech IG army. Something like 8 chimeras with basic squads with meltas, a unit of rough riders and 2 russes. And he does pretty good. As a matter of fact at the last Apoc game he fieild the salamnder Co using the tank riders strategem. and kill 3 stompas in one turn. Like i've said before i cant make Mech Co work. My guys gotta slogg by foot across the battlefield.