Imperial Knights...what the...

[Ivarr]

So, I hear a lot of talk about banning or restricting knights now that they are lords of war...so my question is are we really going to start banning entire factions? Unlike the wraithknight, restricting knights actually stops the use of an entire codex as a primary detachment.?

[Path Walker]

Its really up to who you play with, 40K has always been about playing with another person, the rules are now more explicit about having a conversation with your opponent before you play about the type of game you're planning.

Some armies struggle with Knights, making games where you face 3 or 4 of them not much fun for your opponent. But you can always think of something to balance that out, like changing the victory conditions or something to fit the narrative you're faced with.

40K is becoming less and less suitable for play in a competitive setting or with someone you've never spoken to, and more about telling a story with your armies, I personally don't see that as a bad thing.

[40kGamer]

Knights have great potential for creating some of the most unbalanced games imaginable so I can see why events (which are basically random games) may take issue with them. Still I really prefer that things are not banned. I even wish events found a way to allow unbound although the pitfalls from a powergaming standpoint are painfully obvious.

[Houghten]

Unlike the wraithknight, restricting knights actually stops the use of an entire codex as a primary detachment.?

Isn't that more of a result of having a codex that consists entirely of a single unit?

[daboarder]

its unlikely that tournaments will ban them entirely, maybe they will just cap the number of units that you are allowed. Afterall, you are correct in your statement that their exists a considerable difference between an imperial knight and an eldar one.

Im also willing to put money on which posters will/have attacked the tournament organizers about this (heres a hint, they are the ones screaming that balance isn't important because its up to the players to fix the game)

[Mr Mystery]

Outside of organised play, all is fair game.

I have a burgeoning Knight force because I really, really like the models - they're ace.

Would I use it without warning in my local store/club? Nope. It's a very specialised army, and an opponent should be at least aware of what they're about to face.

But those who refuse point blank? Got no time for such persons. Knights are tough, but far from unassailable given prior warning! The game is about challenge, embrace it.

[Reldane]

But those who refuse point blank? Got no time for such persons. Knights are tough, but far from unassailable given prior warning! The game is about challenge, embrace it.

I really would like to agree with you, in an ideal world every army would have a reasonable chance against every other army (depending on unit selection and tactics) but in all honesty some armies lack the firepower to really stop a knight and whilst they aren't overbearing in close combat anything that doesn't strike before them is a risky choice.

example 1 tyranids
BS of 3 on most units combined with no ranged ap means shots can at most inflict a single hull point. a hive tyrant can get into the sides to make use of str 6 shots but most other units are effectively useless in this match up. in close combat the lack of Initiative hurts their anti tank monstrous creatures meaning they have to weather the knights str D attacks first.

example 2 grey knights
low model count, and lacking a lot of ranged firepower, psycannons can hurt the knight but the sear weight of shots needed makes it a poor match up. they have it slightly better than tyranids in close combat, if the squad can survive to Initiative 1 then daemon hammers can hurt the knight. Its not undo-able but certainly they will struggle into a full knights list.

so the question is; should you expect your opponent to play a game they are unlikely to enjoy, purely for your benefit? personally I feel that set up takes just simply too long for me to play a game with a less than 20% chance to win.

[daboarder]

Remeber folks, its up to YOU and YOUR opponent, not GW to balance the game.

But if you refuse to play MY way because its not fun for you then you are THAT GUY and should be ashamed.

No dont look at me like that, Im the one that knows how to play so that both players have fun, clearly you are not.

See

:rolleyes:

[LCS]

How often do all Imperial Knight armies win tournaments? Isn't the answer almost never? So why should they be restricted over far more ridiculous armies like Tyranids with 9 FMC? Or the fact Eldar dominated with some variation of Wave Serpent spam + Wraightknight friends for a year without limiting them? I rarely see IK do well, but they seem to get more hate than anything else. Usually they just end up being an expensive way to grant a competent opponent first blood.

[daboarder]

How often do all Imperial Knight armies win tournaments? Isn't the answer almost never? So why should they be restricted over far more ridiculous armies like Tyranids with 9 FMC? Or the fact Eldar dominated with some variation of Wave Serpent spam + Wraightknight friends for a year without limiting them? I rarely see IK do well, but they seem to get more hate than anything else. Usually they just end up being an expensive way to grant a competent opponent first blood.

How often do nids with 9 FMC's win tournaments?

Probably less often that Knight armies.

Also, even before this most tournaments that have been running limitations would likely have disallowed/heavily comped all knight armies. Much like they likely Comped Wave Serpent Spam (you are right WSS was worse than all knight armies) or likely comped the Flying Tyrant spam (Because Crones are a bit of a joke in 7th)

These same tournaments will likely comp the new Wraith Spam as well.

Becuase the idea is that they want to restrict your choices so that any army has a reasonable chance of facing any other army instead of getting screwed because they brought a knife and the other guy brought a shotgun

[Reldane]

I suspect because they make any model that isn't at least str 7 irrelevant. you brought 3 sentinels with mulitlasers, oh well sucks to be you. oh that is a land speeder with 2 heavy bolters? nope can't touch this. people don't like not having chance to play with their toys.

And whilst they arn't winning tournaments they are often finishing in the top half (at least in the tournaments that I have looked at the full data for). The army as a whole is either heavily countered or heavy counters your opponents army.

[daboarder]

I suspect because they make any model that isn't at least str 7 irrelevant. you brought 3 sentinels with mulitlasers, oh well sucks to be you. oh that is a land speeder with 2 heavy bolters? nope can't touch this. people don't like not having chance to play with their toys.

And whilst they arn't winning tournaments they are often finishing in the top half (at least in the tournaments that I have looked at the full data for). The army as a whole is either heavily countered or heavy counters your opponents army.

yes, its also worth pointing out that the armies that ARE finishing at the top are usually specifically designed to take down Knights (wraith and Imp) therefore the very existence of the knights is completely distorting community wide army design and balance. If you dont take an anti-knight list and you run into one, then you are sodded.

[Reldane]

I'll be honest it does feel like I am playing the wrong game when I don't play grav-centurian star or wraith (with vauls anvil support(why do they cost the same as a base razorback?)) Eldar. The same is true with knights, why should I put down a squadron of Leman russes when the same points spent on knights gives the more durability, more maneuverability and melee abilities?

Part of it might just be the grass looking greener on the other side of the fence

[daboarder]

I'll be honest it does feel like I am playing the wrong game when I don't play grav-centurian star or wraith (with vauls anvil support(why do they cost the same as a base razorback?)) Eldar. The same is true with knights, why should I put down a squadron of Leman russes when the same points spent on knights gives the more durability, more maneuverability and melee abilities?

Part of it might just be the grass looking greener on the other side of the fence

nah its the borked balance

[Reldane]

nah its the borked balance

hahaha, well that makes me feel both better and worse.

[Nefarius Drapesh]

...I think I have a dejavue... I remember the same discussions for example when the imperial tank company got rules. Or when overall vehicle heavy armies came. Or flyer heavy armies. Or all monstrous creature armies...
Funny somehow.
Okay... an army of 5 Knights is a problem. Is it the fact the whole army is composed of vehicles/walkers? How would an army composed of 10 Soulgrinders be? Or for a better example a list of various contemptors, cybots/helbrutes, ironclads/maulerfiends/defilers/soulgrinders/ven.dreads/murderfangs/...you get the point?
That'd also be an army some hobbyist put lots of time and love into. Would you refuse to play it? Restrict it? If such a list would be ok what's the real difference? We need another tweak to destroyer weapons? I remember some weapons back then you also had no saves against (e.g. dreadaxe on demonprince).
Just some thoughts.
I myself am unsure about the whole knight-discussion.
Yet over various editions I'm somehow used to players complaining about various new stuff. Not sure if this is also the case with knights, but it's quite possible. Maybe an edition later nobody will worry about knights anymore.

[daboarder]

Sure, and those armies you just listed all had their issues.

Knights are generally the same problem, just the difference in ability is larger and therefore more evident.

furthermore, those armies were all major problems at the time and are only NOT major issues now due to various rules changes.

as to the armies of 10 soulgrinder etc.

Well they aren't an issue, not because they wouldnt be broken, but mostly because no one really plays games where such unbound and blatantly ridiculous forces are dropped on the table at a whim. Furthermore, given the context of the OP talking about tournaments, NO they likely wouldnt be allowed, for all the same issues.

[DarkLink]

Knights are actually pretty unique. They're probably the most rock-paper-scissors thing in the game. Roughly two thirds of the field will basically get wrecked because they can't effectively deal with knights, and the last one third will wreck the knights in turn. They never win events because there are enough armies out there that counter them, you're going to lose a game or two at any large tournament, but you'll destroy your other opponents.

[Nefarius Drapesh]

Yeah, true, true.
Now again orientation to the process of finding a solution and to the ultima ratio of question:
What is the real problem?
As far as i read it seems to be "immunity" to 50-60% of units and good offensive abilities to destroy nearly everything.

Easiest solutions to balance one of those 2 aspects:
Adapt terrain.
Terrain for cover, terrain blocking LoS completely, terrain slowing movement and completely impassable terrain. Knights aint antigrav for a good reason and they are big. 120×170mm oval? So needing at least a gap of 120mm between 2 pieces of impassable terrain? The size seems to be Goliath's biggest weakness ;)

The other aspect about their resilence:
How about using mystirious objectives or some neutral gun emplacements on every table? Whole armies struggling with even scraching a knight? Let this ork mob run up to some big gun turret. Place 2-4 of such things in nomansland between the deploymentzones. Wait, that also let armies use the advantage of better numbers of units compared to a knight army. Could work.

I don't know of this solves the problem, but i guess it'd be worth a try.
And if trying isn't worth, the problem isn't problem enough yet ;) .

How about spreading the idea of more (tactically placed terrain) and weapon emplacements and sending some pictures maybe to tournament organizers to get them inspired?

[LCS]

I guess I just don't see the problem with Imperial Knights. At least I don't see them as more of a problem then any of the other top armies that consistently do well at events. Codex imbalance is huge right now, with several of the weaker armies unable to compete at all against an opponent who is trying their hardest to win. People still like to say that any army can be beaten by any other army with a competent general, but it sure doesn't seem that way right now.

[EVIL INC]

One of my local shops alternate months with their tournaments. One month allowing superheavies and such and the next not allowing them.

[Tomgar]

I guess I just don't see the problem with Imperial Knights. At least I don't see them as more of a problem then any of the other top armies that consistently do well at events. Codex imbalance is huge right now, with several of the weaker armies unable to compete at all against an opponent who is trying their hardest to win. People still like to say that any army can be beaten by any other army with a competent general, but it sure doesn't seem that way right now.


Here's the problem:

"Oh hey, I see you're running a reasonably fluffy Space Marine list with some tactical squads, maybe some Terminators, an HQ in a Command Squad? Cool! Well, here's my army entirely composed of units you either have a tiny chance of hurting or literally no chance whatsoever! Have a fun game running around onto various objective markers and not killing anything as I gradually blast, hack and stomp your army off the board! Should have taken a few flyers, eh?"

Basically, unless you tailor your list to deal with Knights, a large part (or, god forbid, all) of your army will be useless or, at best, woefully inefficient. It basically makes pick-up games a total crapshoot and forces you to stick to your own little group of buddies lest you pick up the reputation of being that ******* who refuses to play certain armies.

Don't get me wrong, I like Knights, they're cool, have badass fluff and I own one myself. But whole armies of them are an insanely game-distorting affair. I'd say they need balanced in some way but we all know there's fat chance of that happening!

[LCS]

Here's the problem:

"Oh hey, I see you're running a reasonably fluffy Space Marine list with some tactical squads, maybe some Terminators, an HQ in a Command Squad? Cool! Well, here's my army entirely composed of units you either have a tiny chance of hurting or literally no chance whatsoever! Have a fun game running around onto various objective markers and not killing anything as I gradually blast, hack and stomp your army off the board! Should have taken a few flyers, eh?"

Basically, unless you tailor your list to deal with Knights, a large part (or, god forbid, all) of your army will be useless or, at best, woefully inefficient. It basically makes pick-up games a total crapshoot and forces you to stick to your own little group of buddies lest you pick up the reputation of being that ******* who refuses to play certain armies.

Don't get me wrong, I like Knights, they're cool, have badass fluff and I own one myself. But whole armies of them are an insanely game-distorting affair. I'd say they need balanced in some way but we all know there's fat chance of that happening!

See, I get that. Totally, I have a friend that always does this with his Nids. He brings 5 Flyrants to every game, even just friendly ones when he knows that I'll be running Deathwing and someone else will be using a Tzeentch Thousand Sons heavy CSM list. It's ****ing annoying. But there are multiple top tier armies right now that would absolutely **** on the fluffy Space Marine forces you described. What is so different about Imperial Knights that makes them as an army so much worse that say ninja Tau? Or 5 Riptide tau? Or 6 Flyrants? Or a Necron Decurion? Or even the Wave Serpent spam that we've been seeing for the past year? The power balance between the top armies and the lower tier armies is huge, I just don't see how Knights suddenly cross a line when all Knight armies aren't even doing well at events.

[Tomgar]

Those lists are all douchey as hell but at least most basic dudes can wound the Riptides and FMCs if they get lucky. You don't need masses of S6 weaponry to have a basic chance at scoring some wounds.

Wave Serpent Spam is just as bad Knight spam in my book so I won't go there :p

I suppose I'd be more okay with a game against a Knight army if it was pre-arranged. At least then I could counter the absurd game imbalance by list-tailoring a bit. But anyone who drops that **** in a tournament or brings it to a store for pick-up games is a horrible person who should feel bad. And they can stay the hell away from my fluffy Dark Angels 3rd Company army with its Rhinos, Tac Squads, Assault Squads and Command Squad :p

[David Crossley]

So, I hear a lot of talk about banning or restricting knights now that they are lords of war...so my question is are we really going to start banning entire factions? Unlike the wraithknight, restricting knights actually stops the use of an entire codex as a primary detachment.?

Well, at this point it's pretty much established that GW is developing for the beer & pretzels crowd, and has abdicated competitive tournament play into the hands of its player base. So it's entirely possible that these sorts of choices may become more commonplace in the future. You could still take a knight with the current LoW restrictions, so I wouldn't see it as a ban. I will concede that taking a primary detachment is out the window though, but that may become a feature of possible future factions as well. I don't envy the task TO's find themselves lumbered with, they're going to end up making someone unhappy, which is probably why GW sacked it off in the first place, tbh.

[Ricelord]

Personally I don't have a problem with knights. I play in a meta with 5-6 people that bring fairly unique lists. One brings belakor and arhiman and hides obliteraters behind an aegis line casting telapathy shenanigans. Another runs necron decurion and the one after that runs an ork with a stompa and eldar tank/scat bikes/crimson death. We do bring new players in the mix. I personally run wolves and nids and a lot of the new stuff is difficult to tackle but it makes for a challenging game. All we discuss beforehand is points size and codex. From there I have all the information to make a good list. If your trying new units or play fluff I tone it down a bit or if you go balls out I'll make a nightmare of a list. I don't refuse to play anyone and as far as the game goes, if you spend hundreds of dollars on models and spend a crazy amount of time building and painting it's not my call to tell you how to play. As far as tournaments go I live in maine which usually entails a 2 hour drive as well as entry fees on top of books, models and painting time. So I bought a forge world Fellblade. At a tournament setting it's my responsibility to bring a competitive list so if I elect to bring a list that can't take down knights that's simply a poor tactical decision. Spending a grand getting knight ready isn't easy and it shouldn't be on the TO to limit them. It should be on the player to show up with a list that can beat em. All the crazy codex releases gives us a great game play element. The element of surprise which if used correctly can be an amazing tactical advantage and often times swing games in your favor.

[Xaric]

to be honest they should give anyone who shoots a SH or GC bonus BS+ because its a freaking huge target how did you bloody miss?

[Houghten]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE7rwokK54I

[Path Walker]

to be honest they should give anyone who shoots a SH or GC bonus BS+ because its a freaking huge target how did you bloody miss?

And cover should give a negative modifier to hit, modifiers were a thing once, long ago!

[Tomgar]

And cover should give a negative modifier to hit, modifiers were a thing once, long ago!



Agreed. My mates and I have always wanted GW to go back to modifiers instead of a flat save.

[Da Gargoyle]

I don't think they should be banned from tournaments. I agree with a comment on another post that perhaps LOW and D weapons should have been kept in apocalypse games. But they are here and we must adapt. I also suspect that you may see other codex get seriously powered options in the future. May be it will shorten game time which is always tight in a tournament.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm reading this thread here, thinking, "what army can't kill a vehicle?" Pretty sure all of them can. Then I thought, "who builds an army that can't kill a vehicle?", which lead to, "no one?"

People here need to ask themselves if they truly think other players do not build lists to kill vehicles. I can understand not building to handle Flyers, because there are still armies that can't without allying or forts. Aren't Land Raiders still considered garbage because their cost too much an die to fast? Pretty sure if you can kill a Land Raider, you can kill a Knight. Yes, WraithKnights are under costed by a 100 points, but they still die to generic anti-vehicle weapons like Lascannons and Melta. Is it just hating on the newness?

Imperial Knights are probably the most balance super heavies in the game, with a fair point cost, reasonable stats, and average weapons. The only weapon with Strength Stupid is the melee weapon, which cannot kill more than 4 models on a charge (barring a Gallant being all gallant). Seems to me like there's too much "change" going on for the vocal minority. I mean seriously, if can't kill a Knight each turn, you can't kill anything with a decent AV or high toughness. And that reflects more on you than it does the game.

SJ

[Erik Setzer]

Aren't Land Raiders still considered garbage because their cost too much an die to fast?

Land Raiders aren't considered "garbage" because they "die too fast." It's more that you're paying for all that survivability, and they can't split targets that much with their limited firepower.

A Knight, meanwhile, can move faster, has nastier weapons, can split fire if it has multiple weapons, and can assault models and do a lot more damage in assault.

[LCS]

Land Raiders aren't considered "garbage" because they "die too fast." It's more that you're paying for all that survivability, and they can't split targets that much with their limited firepower.


No, that's pretty much why they are considered bad. You pay for what used to be survivability, but they generally die really fast. And let's be honest, if you're army can't handle a LR then you were probably going to lose anyway. With the amount of D weapons, deep striking melta/lance, and high strength long rage firepower that most armies can bring, all on top of the change to hull points, LR don't do that well. They are rarely worth the huge point sink.

[daboarder]

its a bit of both really.

The original land raider has always been considered bad for all the reasons that you both described (even in 3rd they weren't particularly hard to kill)
the crusade then came along with the increased transport and a slueth of weapons that suited its roll and was popular, then they added machine spirit rule that has been tweaked over th years to give the loyalist las variant a bit of a leg up (there was even a chaos version of this rule but we all know chaos cant have nice things). Then the prometheus came out again with a good load out, but could also actually hurt things as opposed to the crusaders masses of S4 shooting in an edition where s4 wasnt all that (5th)

now we have the current landraider that isnt particularly survivable, or a good/ needed transport or particularly dangerous with its loadout.

[Cutter]

So, I hear a lot of talk about banning or restricting knights now that they are lords of war...so my question is are we really going to start banning entire factions?

Kinda. Let me tell you one story. We don't have a huge amount of gaming related conventions in our little corner of the UK, but the biggest is Q-Con, the annual gaming/anime/cat people show based out of Queen's University. It sure has changed over the 22 years, what started out as a hardcore RPG\Wargaming con has 'blossomed' into something more diverse. Have a look at the planned wargaming roster.

http://www.q-con.org.uk/node/27

Yep, no 40k. Now I daresay there might be some pickup games over the weekend, but there is no competition. I gather that's because they couldn't find anyone willing to run it. Too much grief.

I know of at least one 5 knight army that made an appearance at previous events. I think it did well but went down like a lead balloon.

[Fueldrop]

I had my first encounter with a Wraith Knight on Wednesday. It took an absurd amount of firepower to bring down, but I managed to do it the moment my army hit the ground (I was running deep strike heavy, so the first 2 turns were it firing masses of plasma at a 60 point ranger squad and killing 1 of them).

While I haven't faced Knights yet I figure they'll be fairly similar, but with a double edged sword: They'll be easier to bring down because they're vehicles and I can drop some BS 5 Fire Dragons right next to one and watch it go bye bye while a squad of guided Falcons wail on a doomed Knight's rear armour, letting me have a reasonable shot at either killing or crippling 2 in a round. However, I suspect that a large block of them will be exceedingly difficult to deal with if your enemy keeps them where they can support each other.

Still, I haven't actually faced off against them yet and am pretty much guessing here. It'll be interesting to see how well my list can deal with surprise ImpKnights.

[Erik Setzer]

I had my first encounter with a Wraith Knight on Wednesday. It took an absurd amount of firepower to bring down, but I managed to do it the moment my army hit the ground (I was running deep strike heavy, so the first 2 turns were it firing masses of plasma at a 60 point ranger squad and killing 1 of them).

...

I can drop some BS 5 Fire Dragons right next to one and watch it go bye bye while a squad of guided Falcons wail on a doomed Knight's rear armour, letting me have a reasonable shot at either killing or crippling 2 in a round.


Hmm. You know, I think running Eldar yourself should kind of disqualify you from talking about how "easy" it is to take down a Wraithknight, or pretty much anything else. No offense, just feel like it's only proper to remind you that you're talking about the most potent army in the game right now.

[Fueldrop]

While this is true I am still using the same models as I was back in 5th edition, so no strength-D spam over here. Also, I wasn't claiming taking down Knights is easy, just that they're more vulnerable than GMCs to tricks like meltaspam.

A drop pod with combi-melta space marine veterans is equally a death sentence for anything unfortunate enough to be nearby, as are plenty of other tricks across the codexes.

If you play to your strengths and play your opponents then almost anything can be defeated. Fast armies should try and feint to split the superheavy away from support then pour everything onto it until it goes down, cutting and running when the rest of the enemy army starts to arrive. Elite armies should work to get their specialists to the target ASAP. Massed troops armies are in trouble against a pure knights force, but on the flip side most knights players will just ignore your troops while they go after the stuff that can hurt them. Use that to your advantage, either drawing them out of position chasing your heavies while you secure objectives or else use the fact that they're virtually ignoring your squads to get behind them. Throwing Krak grenades at their rear armour will either get their attention (allowing your heavy weapons to actually get a round of firing in) or be ignored, allowing you to keep doing it. (as I said I haven't played against Knights so just assuming they're rear armour 12 or below) you get enough squads of guardsmen throwing grenades and sheer numbers can eventually wear them down. Necrons can just glance them to death with gauss weapons.

If worst comes to worst, just remember that if they've spent all their points on big stuff then they're not going to be able to secure many objectives. Take down one or two of their heavies over the course of the game while your troops take cover and go to ground on an objective, and it doesn't matter how shiny their big mechs are: you've won.




For those that care about such things:
I was actually running a fairly mundane list, lots of guardians, 2 wave serpents, some rangers, farseer, various aspect warriors ect. My opponent was packing a maxed out wraith host. I only won because I outmaneuvered him handily and was able to bring my entire force against his army bit by bit, and even then it took virtually everything I had + guide + doom to take down that damn wraithknight before it could start killing. What did not help was that the wraith knight had a toe on some ruins (which it towered over) and so RAW it had a 4+ cover save. Combine that with FNP and the damn thing was monsterously tough. I'm horrified by the concept of one of those deep striking (I think it can as Jump GMC but am not certain) behind a weak point in the lines and just causing absolute havoc. I'm unlikely to ever pick one up as I run Uthwe and in any case I reckon the model looks dumb but it's undoubtedly nasty.

I just object to the idea that my thoughts are irrelevant simply because my army got updated recently. I'd have kicked that thing's *** with my 5th edition codex if I had to because my opponent fell for a feint that let me mess him up, not because my army was packed with broken ****.

[Charon]

I'm reading this thread here, thinking, "what army can't kill a vehicle?" Pretty sure all of them can. Then I thought, "who builds an army that can't kill a vehicle?", which lead to, "no one?"

People here need to ask themselves if they truly think other players do not build lists to kill vehicles. I can understand not building to handle Flyers, because there are still armies that can't without allying or forts. Aren't Land Raiders still considered garbage because their cost too much an die to fast? Pretty sure if you can kill a Land Raider, you can kill a Knight. Yes, WraithKnights are under costed by a 100 points, but they still die to generic anti-vehicle weapons like Lascannons and Melta. Is it just hating on the newness?

There quite a few rules that make superheavies quite different from a landraider.
I won't talk about the 4++ (which can become better) the Landraider will not have, nor the ability to assault, stomp, move 12" and still fire all weapons at BF, splitfire or anything of these "small benefits".
Basically it comes down to "if I penetrate a Landraider something will happen" either we see it trying to snapfire, losing a weapon or sit there on his spot for the rest of the game, In rare cases we will see it "poof" in a grat ball of fire.
The Knight? Not so much. Always moving, shooting, assaulting till the last hullpoint is gone.

And while nearly all armies are kitted out to deal with vehicles (multiples at that) there are only a few armies that can take on 5 Knight in all all-comers list. There are even some who cannot muster enough firepower even if prepered and last but no least I hear rumors of some players who do not own multiples of every unit and can't just look into their 50k points for more anti-tank.

[Erik Setzer]

While this is true I am still using the same models as I was back in 5th edition, so no strength-D spam over here.

Yeah, but even without the D stuff, Eldar are insanely good now. People focus so much on the D, they miss how potent all the other stuff is. You can bring an elite force that can deal with pretty much anything.

[Fueldrop]

Yeah, but even without the D stuff, Eldar are insanely good now. People focus so much on the D, they miss how potent all the other stuff is. You can bring an elite force that can deal with pretty much anything.

I could have. Instead I opted for the all rounder list I was experimenting with, which was written well before I knew what I was up against and as a result had both Storm Guardians and Howling Banshees in it, both useless against that much wraithbone.

Veteran player with fluffy all-comers army > Rookie player who just bought all the shiny looking stuff. If you know how to use your army to the best of its ability then most gimmick armies can be outplayed, particularly if the player is just hopping on the bandwagon with a net-list.

Wasn't kidding when I said I'd have kicked his *** with my 5th edition codex, either.

[jeffersonian000]

There quite a few rules that make superheavies quite different from a landraider.
I won't talk about the 4++ (which can become better) the Landraider will not have, nor the ability to assault, stomp, move 12" and still fire all weapons at BF, splitfire or anything of these "small benefits".
Basically it comes down to "if I penetrate a Landraider something will happen" either we see it trying to snapfire, losing a weapon or sit there on his spot for the rest of the game, In rare cases we will see it "poof" in a grat ball of fire.
The Knight? Not so much. Always moving, shooting, assaulting till the last hullpoint is gone.

And while nearly all armies are kitted out to deal with vehicles (multiples at that) there are only a few armies that can take on 5 Knight in all all-comers list. There are even some who cannot muster enough firepower even if prepered and last but no least I hear rumors of some players who do not own multiples of every unit and can't just look into their 50k points for more anti-tank.
Pretty sure enemy Knights stand still during your turn, so the only points above the matter are the 4++ save (on one facing and range only) and melee (if you go that route). The fact that you can tarpit a Knight all game with a unit of grots, gaunts, or conscripts kind of puts insult to any melee scariness Knights can bring to the table. We all had over a year to work out how to get a Knight into cross-fire to mitigate it's Ion Shield, and anyone that can't deal with AV12 is not going to win much, anyway.

So like I said, if can't deal with a Knight at this point, that's on you. Yes, it be a bummer to face one or more if you aren't prepared. So why aren't you prepared? Did you bring all Flamers, and left the Melta at home? Did you forget the Melta Bombs and/Haywire Grenades? No Hammers and Shield? Not enough cannon?

SJ

[LCS]

Pretty sure enemy Knights stand still during your turn, so the only points above the matter are the 4++ save (on one facing and range only) and melee (if you go that route). The fact that you can tarpit a Knight all game with a unit of grots, gaunts, or conscripts kind of puts insult to any melee scariness Knights can bring to the table. We all had over a year to work out how to get a Knight into cross-fire to mitigate it's Ion Shield, and anyone that can't deal with AV12 is not going to win much, anyway.

So like I said, if can't deal with a Knight at this point, that's on you. Yes, it be a bummer to face one or more if you aren't prepared. So why aren't you prepared? Did you bring all Flamers, and left the Melta at home? Did you forget the Melta Bombs and/Haywire Grenades? No Hammers and Shield? Not enough cannon?

SJ

You're right, it's really easy to tarpit something that moves twice as fast as your large blob, has multiple shots with large blast weapons, and has stomp attacks.

[Fueldrop]

If you really wanted to fight dirty...

your enemy has, what, 5 models on the board? Spam cheap tanks and just ram him to death with sheer weight of numbers. (Are Rhinos tanks? If so, get on their flanks, drop your guys out, and use your Rinos as guided missiles! For extra kicks, use hunter-killers on the first turn.)

[daboarder]

If you really wanted to fight dirty...

your enemy has, what, 5 models on the board? Spam cheap tanks and just ram him to death with sheer weight of numbers. (Are Rhinos tanks? If so, get on their flanks, drop your guys out, and use your Rinos as guided missiles! For extra kicks, use hunter-killers on the first turn.)

do the stats, knights got an invul and isnt going to care

[LCS]

If you really wanted to fight dirty...

your enemy has, what, 5 models on the board? Spam cheap tanks and just ram him to death with sheer weight of numbers. (Are Rhinos tanks? If so, get on their flanks, drop your guys out, and use your Rinos as guided missiles! For extra kicks, use hunter-killers on the first turn.)

Were you high when you posted this?

[Fueldrop]

Were you high when you posted this?

It was early. No coffee. Probably worse posting conditions than high.

[jeffersonian000]

You're right, it's really easy to tarpit something that moves twice as fast as your large blob, has multiple shots with large blast weapons, and has stomp attacks.
Guess you haven't played table top war games for vary long, especially ones that variable base sizes. It's so easy to mouse trap a Knight, you literally have to have just started playing to not have the faintest idea of how to do it.

Let me know when you start adding vehicles, bikes, or cavalry to your all foot list.

[LCS]

Guess you haven't played table top war games for vary long, especially ones that variable base sizes. It's so easy to mouse trap a Knight, you literally have to have just started playing to not have the faintest idea of how to do it.

Let me know when you start adding vehicles, bikes, or cavalry to your all foot list.

Dude, you are the one who said that you tarpit them with grots, gaunts, and conscripts. Now you're talking about vehicles, bikes, and cavalry? Get your **** together and pick what you want to do. Are you trying to tarpit a Knight, or are you trying to out maneuver the knight? And what unit of bikes is large enough to tarpit a Knight through a turn of being shot at and the stomp attacks?

[jeffersonian000]

Dude, you are the one who said that you tarpit them with grots, gaunts, and conscripts. Now you're talking about vehicles, bikes, and cavalry? Get your **** together and pick what you want to do. Are you trying to tarpit a Knight, or are you trying to out maneuver the knight? And what unit of bikes is large enough to tarpit a Knight through a turn of being shot at and the stomp attacks?
Even if you play on planet bowling ball, you can brack any unit into a corner if they try to avoid you, or you can bait them into getting close. Knight players want to get Stompy, but a large group of low point mooks is not their prime choice. Pin them, move in your anchor unit(s), then ignore them while you defeat the rest of their army. Hidden power fists/hammers/Melta bombs/haywire will take care of them. Space out your dudes, even when you pile in, to defeat blasts. Or avoid CC and bracket them, pump them full of S8+ AP1-2 (into more than one flank if a SH), and watch them pop. Or focus them with your Flyers. Pull on your big boy pants and man up.

SJ

[LCS]

Even if you play on planet bowling ball, you can brack any unit into a corner if they try to avoid you, or you can bait them into getting close. Knight players want to get Stompy, but a large group of low point mooks is not their prime choice. Pin them, move in your anchor unit(s), then ignore them while you defeat the rest of their army. Hidden power fists/hammers/Melta bombs/haywire will take care of them. Space out your dudes, even when you pile in, to defeat blasts. Or avoid CC and bracket them, pump them full of S8+ AP1-2 (into more than one flank if a SH), and watch them pop. Or focus them with your Flyers. Pull on your big boy pants and man up.

SJ

And there you have it folks. Knights are as easy to deal with as that. Doesn't matter what army you're playing, it's that ****ing simple. Facing 5 Knights? Just box them in. Even though 5 of them are really good at deleting units and can all move fast, just box them in. Now you know.

[DarkLink]

Don't worry, jefferson000 also thinks my Grey Knights are "terribad", even after placing 14th at LVO and going 5-1 against some pretty nasty lists with them. It's not the same list he'd run, though, so obviously it can't be good.

[LCS]

Don't worry, jefferson000 also thinks my Grey Knights are "terribad", even after placing 14th at LVO and going 5-1 against some pretty nasty lists with them. It's not the same list he'd run, though, so obviously it can't be good.

Only 14th? Well, any good Grey Knight player would have placed much higher. Dreadknights, psycannons, shunting, amazing pschic powers and utility.... there are some very strong tactics, that I know, but don't feel like spelling out here, that will allow a competent player than knows his army to win every time. Even against a superior force, all you have to do is .... blah blah blah. That's what jeff and other people like him sound like. I bet he also has the secret weakness to Eldar, and never lost once to them in the past year and a half. In all seriousness though 14th is kind of impressive with GK, they aren't easy in the current meta.

[Charon]

Even if you play on planet bowling ball, you can brack any unit into a corner if they try to avoid you, or you can bait them into getting close. Knight players want to get Stompy, but a large group of low point mooks is not their prime choice. Pin them, move in your anchor unit(s), then ignore them while you defeat the rest of their army. Hidden power fists/hammers/Melta bombs/haywire will take care of them. Space out your dudes, even when you pile in, to defeat blasts. Or avoid CC and bracket them, pump them full of S8+ AP1-2 (into more than one flank if a SH), and watch them pop. Or focus them with your Flyers. Pull on your big boy pants and man up.

SJ

Because everyone happens to play space marines right?

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah. You could space out your dudes to mitigate my Blast weapons. That's a solid tactic, and of course useful against more than just Knights.

But then came the Knight Crusader. Bung on the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, and upgrade to the Krak Missile rack.....and I'm going through your squads at a terrifying rate. The Battlecannon has enough range to shamelessly pick on units you've not spread out. The Avenger Gatling Cannon isn't fussed about you being spread out. Nor do the three Krak Missiles. And I've still got two Heavy Stubbers which are well employed sprinkling some desultory fire power at a unit I fancy tap dancing on in assault.

[DarkLink]

Only 14th? Well, any good Grey Knight player would have placed much higher. Dreadknights, psycannons, shunting, amazing pschic powers and utility.... there are some very strong tactics, that I know, but don't feel like spelling out here, that will allow a competent player than knows his army to win every time. Even against a superior force, all you have to do is .... blah blah blah. That's what jeff and other people like him sound like. I bet he also has the secret weakness to Eldar, and never lost once to them in the past year and a half. In all seriousness though 14th is kind of impressive with GK, they aren't easy in the current meta.

Can't kill FMCs, though, which was my one loss. If only GKs could take a fire raptor...

[jeffersonian000]

Don't worry, jefferson000 also thinks my Grey Knights are "terribad", even after placing 14th at LVO and going 5-1 against some pretty nasty lists with them. It's not the same list he'd run, though, so obviously it can't be good.
When did I call your GK terribad?

Being a GK player, I tend to support other GK players.

SJ