Super Heavies, Transports and Occupants?

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Just built my shiny new Knight as a Crusader, because lots of dakka is always fun.

And it got me thinking....if I use my Thermal Cannon on a Transport and pop it, can I then hose down the freshly disembarked unit with the Avenger Gatling cannon, because weapons on Super Heavies can pick different targets?

[Houghten]

Nope.

[Mr Mystery]

Bugger.

[Charistoph]

Nope.

Reason? Remember, Split Fire prevents it, but nothing in the Super-Heavy rules prevent it.

[lobster-overlord]

Reason? Remember, Split Fire prevents it, but nothing in the Super-Heavy rules prevent it.

But the "declare all shots from a single vehicle/unit before taking them" does. The popped unit isn't on the table when you are to declare from the super-heavy, thus aren't legal targets until after the SH's shots are resolved.

[Houghten]

Before looking at the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules, look at the Shooting rules. Specifically, "The Shooting Sequence" box. Paraphrased:


Step 1, choose the unit with which you will shoot.

Step 2, choose the target.

Steps 3 to 6, choose a weapon and resolve its fire.

Step 7, if any remaining weapons, go to step 3.

Notice how step 7 does not return you to step 2. The target has already been picked, before you shot anything.

Now you can look in the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules for any contradictions. I can't find any. It can shoot each weapon at a different target if it wants to, but still has to determine targets before it fires anything.

This can also lead to wasted shots; say I decide to fire my both my supa-gatler and all three of my big shootas at a particularly irritating Doom Scythe, but due to an exceptionally Morky set of rolls I obliterate it with the supa-gatler. The big shootas now have nothing to fire at (although I should probably roll the dice for the number of shots it gets anyway, just to see if it jams).

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Ninja'd by a lobster. Man, that burns.

[Charistoph]

But the "declare all shots from a single vehicle/unit before taking them" does. The popped unit isn't on the table when you are to declare from the super-heavy, thus aren't legal targets until after the SH's shots are resolved.

Where is that written? This issue has come up before and no one has been able to quote that before. That's how it was in 6th Edition, but not in 7th.

The Shooting Phase sets it up differently, I'll go in to later it since Houghten thinks he addressed it, but misquoted. Super-Heavy shooting rules simply state, "...it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."


Before looking at the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules, look at the Shooting rules. Specifically, "The Shooting Sequence" box. Paraphrased:

Notice how step 7 does not return you to step 2. The target has already been picked, before you shot anything.

Now you can look in the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules for any contradictions. I can't find any. It can shoot each weapon at a different target if it wants to, but still has to determine targets before it fires anything.

This can also lead to wasted shots; say I decide to fire my both my supa-gatler and all three of my big shootas at a particularly irritating Doom Scythe, but due to an exceptionally Morky set of rolls I obliterate it with the supa-gatler. The big shootas now have nothing to fire at (although I should probably roll the dice for the number of shots it gets anyway, just to see if it jams).

You missed something. "Choose a Target" only allows for choosing a single enemy unit. To reuse your paraphrase:
Choose the unit that will shoot
Choose a single target
Select a Weapon
Roll To Hit
Roll To Wound
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
Select another weapon or end unit's shooting.

Now, Super-Heavies never say when this multiple target selection occurs. It doesn't say it changes the Choose a Single Target section, that is an assumption you are making. A reasonable assumption, but an assumption none the less.

Indeed, the only place I've found that actually sets down a process for how firing at multiple targets and mixes with the Shooting Sequence is under Split Fire. Split Fire has you select a model, process its fire, then process the rest of the unit's fire at another target and it cannot be a unit dismounted by the first shooter of the unit.

BUT, Super-Heavies do not have Split Fire. They have their own set of rules, but nothing actually written on how those rules are to be inserted in to the basic rules.

Split Fire provides a precedence in some ways, but also in others. On one hand, target selection is performed after a weapon's resolution, but cannot be used against a unit that just appeared on the field, but it is explicit in telling you that it cannot, indicating that such a notice is required in order to prevent it.

In short, the whole thing is a mess, and I do sincerely believe that the changes to the Shooting Phase in which each weapon's fire is resolved one at a time was one of the last things changed and no one had a map as to what it would affect, so many of the rules that were affected by it were never addressed before print, nor even FAQ'd up to now.

[Mr Mystery]

But the "declare all shots from a single vehicle/unit before taking them" does. The popped unit isn't on the table when you are to declare from the super-heavy, thus aren't legal targets until after the SH's shots are resolved.

I'll allow it.

[daboarder]

I'll allow it.

As in you will clearly ignore the rules?

Or deign to agree that your initial idea was incorrect?

Charistoph.

You choose 2 seperate targets in Step 2 (Superheavy >General), then resolve 1 weapon, then at step 7 you go back to step 3 with your remaining weapons and resolve them. They have already been declared against a target as per step 2 and therefore are not eligible to shoot at the occupants

[Charistoph]

Charistoph.

You choose 2 seperate targets in Step 2 (Superheavy >General), then resolve 1 weapon, then at step 7 you go back to step 3 with your remaining weapons and resolve them. They have already been declared against a target as per step 2 and therefore are not eligible to shoot at the occupants

Where does it say to do that, though? That is the question that has never been answered.

The Super-Heavy rules do not state "instead of choosing one target to shoot at, they may select multiple", it simply states, "...it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."

Weapons can be fired at different times so is it allowed to change targets after resolving it? When firing two of the same weapon, are both resolved "at the same time"?

Simply put, there is no mechanic addressed for how Super-Heavies interact with the current Shooting Sequence with multiple targets. As I said to Houghten, it is a reasonable assumption that it is how you say, but it still remains an assumption.

[Mr Mystery]

Way I see it, I need to declare the targets for each weapon system from those eligible.

So that wouldn't include a currently embarked unit.

[daboarder]

Where does it say to do that, though? That is the question that has never been answered.

The Super-Heavy rules do not state "instead of choosing one target to shoot at, they may select multiple", it simply states, "...it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."

Weapons can be fired at different times so is it allowed to change targets after resolving it? When firing two of the same weapon, are both resolved "at the same time"?

Simply put, there is no mechanic addressed for how Super-Heavies interact with the current Shooting Sequence with multiple targets. As I said to Houghten, it is a reasonable assumption that it is how you say, but it still remains an assumption.

yes, weapons are fired at different times, but the TARGETS are declared at the same time before any weapon has fired.

pg 30 general shooting rules. the only exemption superheavies have is that they can fire at different units (so step 2)

target declaration and weapons shooting are two distinct steps.

[Denzark]

Way I see it, I need to declare the targets for each weapon system from those eligible.

So that wouldn't include a currently embarked unit.

Seems legit.

[lobster-overlord]

I'll allow it.

Well, see, that's the thing... we allow it too. BUT it's a house rule, as long as the vehicle still has weapons to shoot, and it was the unit that was in the targeted vehicle ONLY.
But again, a house rule.

[Charistoph]

yes, weapons are fired at different times, but the TARGETS are declared at the same time before any weapon has fired.

Incorrect. A Single Target is declared before any weapon is fired, not targetS. You are adding words to the rules.


pg 30 general shooting rules. the only exemption superheavies have is that they can fire at different units (so step 2)

target declaration and weapons shooting are two distinct steps.

Super-Heavies do not specifically state how this difference is handled, though. You are assuming that it replaces "select a single target" with "select multiple targets" but without specific direction or instruction.

As I said before, it is a reasonable assumption, but just because it is reasonable does not change the fact that it IS an assumption.

[Houghten]

The problem is, you're assuming too (and I'm not even willing to say yours is "reasonable"). And we can argue back and forth about it until we're blue in the fingers, but I think it's fairly clear at this point that both sides are just as pig-headedly entrenched.

[daboarder]

given that the ONLY exception to the general rules for shooting in super heavies is that word multiple.

With as you say no OTHER information added.

I wouldn't call it an assumption I'd call it actually following what the rules say given how they deal with specific and general

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The problem is, you're assuming too (and I'm not even willing to say yours is "reasonable"). And we can argue back and forth about it until we're blue in the fingers, but I think it's fairly clear at this point that both sides are just as pig-headedly entrenched.

I dont think charistoph is being pig headed.

I think hes just pointing out how badly the wording is (Hey GW standard what can we do)

I[d even hazard that he probably agrees with the rest of us on how it would be played in almost every case

[Path Walker]

Yeah, its a point that needs clarifying, I can see both arguments for the issue. But it's only a game, just do whatever seems more sensible to you and your opponent at the time until its cleared up.

[Charistoph]

given that the ONLY exception to the general rules for shooting in super heavies is that word multiple.

With as you say no OTHER information added.

I wouldn't call it an assumption I'd call it actually following what the rules say given how they deal with specific and general

And Specific and General have no rule-bearings in the game. It goes Basic > Advanced > Codex Advanced, but that is a sidetrack.

Still, the only rule which has a fully defined mechanic adjustment for shooting at multiple targets with a unit is Split Fire. Super-Heavy is not defined (interestingly enough, neither is Power of the Machine Spirit), which means that any interpretation is only an assumption and how a player wishes to play it.


I dont think charistoph is being pig headed.

I think hes just pointing out how badly the wording is (Hey GW standard what can we do)

I'd even hazard that he probably agrees with the rest of us on how it would be played in almost every case

That is correct. That is why I called it a "reasonable" assumption. It cuts down the muss and fuss with a minimum of issue and avoids sticky issues. But that doesn't change the fact of what it is, an assumption, and therefore not but a House Rule.

I would even go so far as address it thusly:
"The rules for Super-Heavy shooting do not state when the multiple targets should be announced, but for sportsmanship reasons, one should declare all targets before shooting."