Embarked units: homemade, unofficial FAQ

[Madness]

All right, RAW has failed me so hard it's not even funny any more, so I'll try and figure out what is a decent (simple and fluffy) way to handle every situation according to my very own flawed and egotistical opinion.

Let's start with the

Rulebook.

Q: If I fail a morale test with embarked units, how do I have to act?
A: The vehicle automatically suffers a Crew - Shaken damage. The units will not try to fall back.
Why? While drivers and gunners are usually immune to morale, a plasmagun exploding in the back, or a daemon popping out of a psyker brain is surely a shaking event. The units will not try to flee from the vehicle as it's probably much scarier out there!

Codex: Tyranids.

Q: When are embarked models within "Synapse range"? (Synapse Creature ability)
A: Measure from the hull of any transport involved in the situation.
Why? Seems reasonable that this ability works on a range longer than just 12" as Tyranid broods tend to be quite large, and once a model of the brood is under control, all the brood is.

Q: When are embarked models affected by Shadow in the Warp?
A: If it is a shooting power, measure from the fire point being used, otherwise measure from the CENTER of the hull of any transport involved in the situation.
Why? Preventing the Tyranid's version of a psychic hood to work with embarked units didn't seem right, but psyker units are usually single models or at best pretty small, so using the whole hull as measuring point seemed a little too much.

Q: Does Spore Cloud work if the Venomthrope is being transported?
A: No.
Why? Supposedly what protects the Venomthrope from outside attacks also prevent an efficient dispersal of the Cloud. But the crew is probably not too happy about the conditions inside the vehicle.

Q: Does Spore Cloud work on embarked units?
A: Yes, measure the 6" using the vehicle hull.
Why? Not many shooting attacks can shoot someone inside a vehicle, so I'd rather keep it simple.

Q: Can I shoot a transported troop with an Impaler Cannon?
A: No.
Why? The rules would tell you otherwise, but if the Impaler Cannon is able to penetrate the vehicle armour and hit the embarked units, it will have to do it oldschool by shooting the vehicle. And with 2 shots at strength 8 it will probably do the job just fine. Also, it's pretty silly to have a tiny S8 gun penetrating the side of a super heavy transport with no problem at all.

Q: Can the Pyrovore's Volatile ability hit units inside a transport?
A: No.
Why? For some reason they decided that using a D6" was smarter than using a blast marker, but it's a puny S3 hit, not really THAT acid. Also it's something that would normally target single models, not entire units.

Q: Can the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep ability hit units inside a transport?
A: No.
Why? The vehicle is already being hit, plus it uses a template.

Q: Can the Tervigon's Brood Progenitor ability affect units inside a transport?
A: Yes, measure the 6 using the vehicle's hull.
Why? First, who put termagants inside the vehicle? Second, it feels like a psyonic ability and it effects whole units, so let's allow it and be generous with the ranges.

Q: How do I measure the distance for Ripper Swarms' Mindless ability?
A: Measure it using any involved vehicle's hull.
Why? Same as Synapse range, I wonder why they didn't use the "Synapse range" terminology they already established...

Q: How do I measure the distance for The Swarmlord's Swarm Leader ability?
A: Measure it using any involved vehicle's hull.
Why? Same as Synapse range, I wonder why they didn't use the "Synapse range" terminology they already established... (yes it's the same answer as the FAQ before)

Q: How do I measure the distance for Old One Eye's Alpha Leader ability?
A: Measure it using any involved vehicle's hull.
Why? This reeks of Synapse range, it is not, but still... I'll use the same rules.

Q: Can The Doom of Malan'tai's Spirit Leech ability effect units into transports?
A: Yes, measure the distance using any involved vehicle's hull, but halve the damage (rounding up) to any embarked units.
Why? This is a solomonic decision, I had to work it so it functioned decently even for transports with a single IC inside, IE. the Doom of Malan'tai is within 6" of a corner of a transport and the IC just shot from a firing point on the opposite side. Tough call but I'm satisfied with it.

I'm not FAQing the following abilities since they are extreme situations at best:
Pheromone Trail, more to come...

More to come. If I missed something or did something terribly dumb, please tell me. But be aware, I might ignore it.

[gcsmith]

Weve told you why impaler cannon doesnt hit people inside a vehicle. shooting requires models not units :p

[Madness]

That is discussed elsewhere, I'm underlining also what was already obvious (to some) and even changing normal behaviours. If you have anything relevant to say I'd be happy to hear it. If you want to discuss the Impaler Cannon issue please do it in the correct place.

[Nabterayl]

You know dude, I like technical RAW discussions as much as the next guy, but sometimes you need to walk away and bask in the reality of playing with ladies and gentlemen. With respect, it kind of sounds like you might be in need of a "walk away" moment. I mean, unless your group really can't figure out what to do with embarked units, and you're looking for help in crafting a house rule that you hope will become your group's consensus?

[Madness]

I personally hate RAW discussions, as I personally hate RAW, I came up with this faq trying to find a common sense solution to these issues, and I am intrested (unlike the RAW discussions) in getting feedback on it. And some situations are really hazy, specially the routing one.

What do you think of the current state of this FAQ?

[Fellend]

What's the common sense in the first rule? The unbreakable faith of the machine crew is suddenly shaken because ... someone behind them died? Yeah sure, we'll sit safely behind blasted to pieces, exploding walking straight into titan fire but oh god someone we transported died BY THE EMPEROR now i'm scared....

Stop trying to make up rules which aren't there.

[Spirit Leech]

I for one appreciate your FAQ, especially your handling of spirit leech. I hope that this will mark the end of the rather silly arguments that have been going round recently on this forum.

[Madness]

@Fellend: we have no way to correctly handle a transported unit attempting to Fall back. So I tried to come up with a rule that didn't ignore the occasion but didn't "rub it in" too much, while also being simple to apply. Consider how rare is the occasion and how light is the effect, I think it's reasonable. Much more reasonable than saying "they can't run out, they are trapped, and everyone gets a heart attack and dies".

[DarkLink]

I would only make the embarked unit suffer crew-shaken, not the whole vehicle. Since when has one unit cared if the unit next to it got shot up?

Aside from that, I actually like that way of dealing with the situation.

[Madness]

DL: I took that too in consideration, but wording it would have been less elegant and a bit too easy on the involved player, but your observation is duly noted.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Should be Crew Stunned if anything - passengers are affected by a Vehicle becoming Shaken after all.

[Madness]

Passenger-wise shaken and stunned are the same thing, the only difference is for the driver/gunners, aka the normal crew.
Normally the crew is immune to Leadership, but they aren't immune to stuff happening, such a glancing hit on the vehicle.
Morale tests inside the transport area are taken mostly when people die, and that happens if a plasma weapon explodes, or perils of the warp kill a model and so on.

All those effects sound like they would be quite taxing not only on the embarked unit, but on the vehicle as well. In a way equivalent to a glancing hit from the inside.

I could have inflicted a glancing hit on the vehicle, but open topped vehicles can be wrecked for a glancing hit, so I had to limit it even further, immobilizing the vehicle or damaging the weapon sound like very specific type of damages, so I didn't want to go there (and they would have left the embarked unit untouched, which is kinda contradictory).

That left me with Crew - Shaken and Crew - Stunned, the only difference being that Stunned would have immobilized the vehicle, so I made a judgement call. Shaken is a light effect so people will try less to resist it and it still has a considerable impact on the game.

[Nabterayl]

I personally hate RAW discussions, as I personally hate RAW, I came up with this faq trying to find a common sense solution to these issues, and I am intrested (unlike the RAW discussions) in getting feedback on it. And some situations are really hazy, specially the routing one.

What do you think of the current state of this FAQ?
Fair enough. My thoughts below:

Rulebook.

Q: If I fail a morale test with embarked units, how do I have to act?
A: The vehicle automatically suffers a Crew - Shaken damage. The units will not try to fall back.
Why? While drivers and gunners are usually immune to morale, a plasmagun exploding in the back, or a daemon popping out of a psyker brain is surely a shaking event. The units will not try to flee from the vehicle as it's probably much scarier out there!
I think this is needlessly complicated. If we're going to house rule it, I would just say that embarked units never take Morale tests, ever.


Codex: Tyranids.

Q: When are embarked models within "Synapse range"? (Synapse Creature ability)
A: Measure from the hull of any transport involved in the situation.
Why? Seems reasonable that this ability works on a range longer than just 12" as Tyranid broods tend to be quite large, and once a model of the brood is under control, all the brood is.
Yes, absolutely.


Q: When are embarked models affected by Shadow in the Warp?
A: If it is a shooting power, measure from the fire point being used, otherwise measure from the CENTER of the hull of any transport involved in the situation.
Why? Preventing the Tyranid's version of a psychic hood to work with embarked units didn't seem right, but psyker units are usually single models or at best pretty small, so using the whole hull as measuring point seemed a little too much.
I think you're asking for trouble by not using the nearest point on the hull. Everything else uses the nearest point on the hull; I'd stick with that.


Q: Does Spore Cloud work if the Venomthrope is being transported?
A: No.
Why? Supposedly what protects the Venomthrope from outside attacks also prevent an efficient dispersal of the Cloud. But the crew is probably not too happy about the conditions inside the vehicle.
As a common sense rule this works for me.


Q: Does Spore Cloud work on embarked units?
A: Yes, measure the 6" using the vehicle hull.
Why? Not many shooting attacks can shoot someone inside a vehicle, so I'd rather keep it simple.
When does this ever come up?


Q: Can I shoot a transported troop with an Impaler Cannon?
A: No.
Why? The rules would tell you otherwise, but if the Impaler Cannon is able to penetrate the vehicle armour and hit the embarked units, it will have to do it oldschool by shooting the vehicle. And with 2 shots at strength 8 it will probably do the job just fine. Also, it's pretty silly to have a tiny S8 gun penetrating the side of a super heavy transport with no problem at all.
I agree the answer should be no, but I would just make explicit the unwritten rule from previous editions and say that models within a transport cannot suffer harm except from situations that they themselves initiated.


Q: Can the Pyrovore's Volatile ability hit units inside a transport?
A: No.
Why? For some reason they decided that using a D6" was smarter than using a blast marker, but it's a puny S3 hit, not really THAT acid. Also it's something that would normally target single models, not entire units.
See above.


Q: Can the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep ability hit units inside a transport?
A: No.
Why? The vehicle is already being hit, plus it uses a template.
See two above.


Q: Can the Tervigon's Brood Progenitor ability affect units inside a transport?
A: Yes, measure the 6 using the vehicle's hull.
Why? First, who put termagants inside the vehicle? Second, it feels like a psyonic ability and it effects whole units, so let's allow it and be generous with the ranges.
I agree the answer should be yes, but I think you're overcomplicating things. Works this way already by RAW as far as I can tell.


Q: How do I measure the distance for Ripper Swarms' Mindless ability?
A: Measure it using any involved vehicle's hull.
Why? Same as Synapse range, I wonder why they didn't use the "Synapse range" terminology they already established...
What do hulls have to do with Mindless?


Q: How do I measure the distance for The Swarmlord's Swarm Leader ability?
A: Measure it using any involved vehicle's hull.
Why? Same as Synapse range, I wonder why they didn't use the "Synapse range" terminology they already established... (yes it's the same answer as the FAQ before)
Same question as before ... what does Swarm Leader have to do with hulls? Are you asking how you measure the distance for Swarm Leader in the case of embarked tyranids? If so, this is exactly the sort of situation page 66 is supposed to answer.


Q: How do I measure the distance for Old One Eye's Alpha Leader ability?
A: Measure it using any involved vehicle's hull.
Why? This reeks of Synapse range, it is not, but still... I'll use the same rules.
Same as page 66 ... this is just repeating RAW.


Q: Can The Doom of Malan'tai's Spirit Leech ability effect units into transports?
A: Yes, measure the distance using any involved vehicle's hull, but halve the damage (rounding up) to any embarked units.
Why? This is a solomonic decision, I had to work it so it functioned decently even for transports with a single IC inside, IE. the Doom of Malan'tai is within 6" of a corner of a transport and the IC just shot from a firing point on the opposite side. Tough call but I'm satisfied with it.
As long as we're in house-rule territory, you know how I feel about this from my answer earlier in the post.

[Madness]

Nab, I wrote this faq with tournament setting in mind, even wild settings (double tournaments in which transport are way more generous than they should be) in which a Malanthrope might end up inside a vehicle, or ripper swarms do, or whatever.

Or even special scenarios situation (I play special scenarios often).

So yes, there's a lot of redundancy but it is by design. Which will mean that RAW gets reinstated often.
Basically I'm working from a "what if page 66 rule didn't exists?" point of view.

I know that Shadow in the Warp is a rule change (as they would say somewhere else), just like Spirit Leech, and I introduced them as a balancing measure. Btw, what would you do with spirit leech?

Same thing for transported models and morale tests, the transport mechanic is already very strong, giving them further immunities felt like unfair to tyranids and non mecha players.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, but ... that's how everybody already plays it. :confused:

[Madness]

Personally I don't see two places that use the same rulesets, maybe it's just a local thing, but everyone here has house rules. Hell, last year I saw a THIRD edition tournament going about here.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, but how many places have you been to that allow passengers to take Morale tests?

[Madness]

I NEVER had to take one. Or had to force someone to.

I was reading the INATFAQ, and they are apparently much more generous with cover saves than I'd be (spirit leech for instance is affected by cover saves, and units inside transport get a 4++).

[Nabterayl]

I NEVER had to take one. Or had to force someone to.

I was reading the INATFAQ, and they are apparently much more generous with cover saves than I'd be (spirit leech for instance is affected by cover saves, and units inside transport get a 4++).
Yeah, which personally I think is BS. I think it's perfectly clear that spirit leech is affected by cover saves, but because it isn't a shooting attack, you don't get a cover save against it simply by being in cover. But lots of people seem incapable of distinguishing between "being in cover" and "having a cover save," which is a pet peeve of mine.

But anyway, my point about passengers and Morale is that while it makes good fodder for RAW discussions, as far as I can tell the overwhelming consensus among players (judging by how we actually play) is that passengers never take Morale tests, ever. I know that the RAW suggests otherwise, but if we're looking for a house rule on the subject, I say just make explicit what everybody already does.

It's in the same vein that I think the house rule on passengers, ranges, shooting, etc. should be:


Unless a rule explicitly says otherwise, an embarked unit may not be targeted or affected by any hostile effects except those that result from or respond to the actions of the embarked unit. This means, for instance, that embarked units may not be targeted or affected by enemy psychic powers, but if an embarked psyker attempts a psychic test, it may suffer a Perils of the Warp attack, and the psychic power is subject to cancellation by rules or effects such as a Space Marine librarian's psychic hood or the tyranid Shadow in the Warp. Similarly, an embarked model may not be targeted by enemy shooting (even by weapons that do not require line of sight or affect all units in a given area), but could still suffer a wound if it fired a weapon with the Gets Hot! rule.

Unless a rule explicitly says otherwise, effects (other than shooting!) that are generated by an embarked unit measure their ranges from the transporting vehicle's hull. For instance, if a unit grants the Stubborn special rule to all friendly units within 6" and this unit is embarked on a transport, all friendly units within 6" of the transport would be granted the Stubborn special rule.

I mean, maybe this is naive of me, but isn't that the baseline of how everybody already plays?

[Madness]

Sadly it is naive. :/

Everybody is a really bad case of blanket term, I thought that a simple (and it is simple) rule that could benefit the poor guy who's desperate to hurt the people inside the transport with his extremely cool Ld based abilities without trashing the ever-loved mecha.

Cover shouldn't apply unless it's a shooting situation, nowhere else it says it does, regardless of what provided the source of the cover save. Even more when it's an area of effect situation.

[Nabterayl]

Sadly it is naive. :/

Everybody is a really bad case of blanket term, I thought that a simple (and it is simple) rule that could benefit the poor guy who's desperate to hurt the people inside the transport with his extremely cool Ld based abilities without trashing the ever-loved mecha.
Well, fair enough. I still think that's what the rule should be, though :p


Cover shouldn't apply unless it's a shooting situation, nowhere else it says it does, regardless of what provided the source of the cover save. Even more when it's an area of effect situation.
I really disagree with this. A save is a save is a save. Cover saves aren't allowed in close combat because all close combat attacks explicitly disallow cover saves. That's enough modification of the basic rule as it is, in my book. Making cover saves realistic is not necessarily something I'm opposed to, but it's something I'd want to do all in one go. Special abilities like spirit leech are the last place I'd start if I was going to start rationalizing cover saves.

[Madness]

Agreed or disagreed upon, it's how I understood them to work, shooting (or shooting like powers) gives the chance for a cover save. Everything else doesn't. Luckily MOST of the hazy situations clearly state if the cover applies or not.

[RealGenius]

Q: If I fail a morale test with embarked units, how do I have to act?
A: The vehicle automatically suffers a Crew - Shaken damage. The units will not try to fall back.
Why? While drivers and gunners are usually immune to morale, a plasmagun exploding in the back, or a daemon popping out of a psyker brain is surely a shaking event. The units will not try to flee from the vehicle as it's probably much scarier out there!

I'm not sure I'd apply an effect from an embarked unit to the vehicle. Usually it is one way: vehicle -> passengers. Transport operators are pros and pretty much ignore or seal off the passengers. Take the bus driver of the youtube video going around as an example.

I've run over this a few time with friends and I think the best solution is that if an embarked unit fails a moral test, it is pinned/gone to ground.

The embarked unit doesn't get out, doesn't shoot, just sits there in their seats and hopes for the best. The embarked unit doesn't make the transport any less effective, and if it is destroyed the pinned unit acts normally as per the rules in Going to Ground. Sitting with your head between your legs may be all fine and good, but if your transport blows up around you, that might just be the motivation you need to get back fighting.

[Madness]

That's another quick way to deal with it, but imho it's even more devastating since the models can't disembark, very elegant approach tho.