What if all Dreadnoughts were Monstrous Creatures?

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Pondering my Kastellax pre-order, I've rather belatedly realised their Mechanicus Dreadnought equivalents in terms of role.

And like Wraithlords, they're Monstrous a Creatures rather than Walkers.

This of course makes them a bit more resilient than the often rather lack lustre Dreadnoughts, which to my mind never seem to punch their weight.

So what if all Dreadnoughts and equivalents were made Monstrous Creatures?

[Arkhan Land]

personally I secretly harbor a desire for a "Monstrous Infantry" category that sort of bridges the two

personal flavoring:

Wounds versus armour, which I think is already the popular winner - Some sort of seperate dreadnought and seperate walker basic S and T boost similar to the wording of a jetbike/bike, which is worded and then adjusted in each entry. Walkers +3, Dreads +5

Invul Save for Dreads - RT used to have em, then they dissapeared, we need em back thank you. I dont think walkers should get them. They should vary from a 5+ (your rine and eldar dreads) to a 6+ (Orks, etc)

HOW with AP 2 - theyre made of metal, this isn't a headbutt from a big-wolf or getting bumped by a bike tire, this is big piece of metal.

Skyfire at BS 2 - I feel like an infantry pointing a weapon that weighs a ton trying to hit a moving target is truly a rough chance, versus a big metal dude with some element of a targeting system should have a slightly better chance of popping a bird, though not the same benefits as confered to a skyfiring weapon/weapon system.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I think the issue goes beyond Walkers/Monstrous Creatures - the game might really benefit from a reevaluation of how Vehicles work. A lot of the conventions surrounding Vehicles feel like awkward compromises of 1st/2nd edition rules.

Quite a few awkward little idiosyncrasies beyond Walkers/Monsters are present - the weird contrasts being Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flyers, how Chariots were once just a buffed statline, were a one-man Transport in 6th and have now moved onto their 7th ed incarnation, the flip-flopping of artillery etc.

Perhaps remove the unique vehicle statline format, and add in rules along the lines of "Cannot be Locked in Combat", "Weak Rear Armour" etc.

[Djbz]

I wouldn't like Walkers being made into monstrous creatures.
Monstrous creatures die so easily when I use them.
My Flesh Tearers force has a pair of Furioso dreadnoughts and their worst ever performances are still better than the best any monstrous creature has done for me.

[Dave Mcturk]

I wouldn't like Walkers being made into monstrous creatures.
Monstrous creatures die so easily when I use them.
My Flesh Tearers force has a pair of Furioso dreadnoughts and their worst ever performances are still better than the best any monstrous creature has done for me.

'vehicles' are immune to poison ! the 'hybrid' issue has long been an unresolved problem !

wraithlords die like drowning kittens - :eek:

we've boosted 'monstrous creatures' to a +1 to their armour save v poison and boosted ALL vehicle front armour values by +1 ...
wont work in open competition, but as a house rule its made vehicles and mc more usable and 'fun' in the current codex field where everybody and its/his/her dog seems to have an ap2 weapon.

[Lexington]

I've been thinking about this, too - specifically, in regards to the piles of Killa Kanz and Deff Dreads I own, which might as well not exist for playability. :p

An easy solution I've run through would be to treat all Walkers (tho not Super-Heavy Walkers) as Monstrous Creatures, with a Toughness value based on their front armor, starting at T5 for Front Armor 10, and going up one-for-one afterwards. So, FA 11 becomes T6, FA 12 becomes T7, etc. Wounds would be equal to the number of Hull Points. Armor save's a little trickier - either 2+ all around, or 3+ for the weaker armor (currently 10 - 11), and 2+ for everything else. Pretty easy system overall, with a few loose ends - Extra Armor, fr'ex, but I'm pretty sure you could fix that up. Did a quick survey of existing "Monstrous Walker"-type models (Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Riptide), and the points seem to at least vaguely line up. Given GW's...lackadaisical approach to rules writing, "vaguely works" is sometimes the best thing to be hoped for.

[Katharon]

I've been afraid of this trend ever since the Grey Knight's Dreadknight was released. I think the idea that Dreadnoughts would stop being walkers and become MCs is disturbing. Instead, I think simply re-balance how walkers take damage would be better. A special rule perhaps that makes them impossible to suffer an explodes result? Similar to how Super Heavies suffer D3 HPs?

[CoffeeGrunt]

So my AV12 Sentinels become T7 3+ W2 for only 40pts each? Seems mighty fine to me.

I don't think a sweeping change is going to work so easily, we need to look at the nature of vehicles and change how they work. That said, a tank should be a different kind of target to a squad of Infantry, and that's actually one of the aspects I like about 40K. If my Leman Russes just become high-T Infantry it really takes away from their flavour.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think if they stay vehicles, Dreadnoughts need either heavier front/side armour (to represent their role as close-assault vehicles) or more hull points (to represent their ability to 'roll with the damage', maybe?)

Honestly they'd be much better as Monstrous Creatures, but I don't think you'll see the slightest difference in the new Marine codex. They'll be the same as they've been for like, three codicies in a row now.

[Cpt Codpiece]

I think if they stay vehicles, Dreadnoughts need either heavier front/side armour (to represent their role as close-assault vehicles) or more hull points (to represent their ability to 'roll with the damage', maybe?)

Honestly they'd be much better as Monstrous Creatures, but I don't think you'll see the slightest difference in the new Marine codex. They'll be the same as they've been for like, three codicies in a row now.

Once they release a new model, we will see the switch :)

[YorkNecromancer]

Once they release a new model, we will see the switch

Ironclads and Furiosos suggest you are wrong. Both of them were released with the same middling survivability, which has only decreased over time. The one thing Furiosos had going for them - 'exploding' wounds off of their Blood Talons - has been taken away, leaving the pair of them as average-but-not-as-good-as-other-stuff assault specialists who can't hold their own against characters, can't escape tarpits, can't really reliably defeat anything in assault actually, and are basically nowhere near as terrifying as they should be.

The only solid dreadnought is the Contemptor, and that's because it's tougher than leather, has a forcefield, and its Kheres assault cannon are superb. Give the Contemptor stats to the regular dreads but keep the weapon options as they are, give Contemptors AV14 on the front to make them mildly different apart from their weapon options, and I think you solve 90% of the Dreadnought's problems.

[Lacy Jones]

I like the set of rules used at Nova for their special campaign game Look at the last 7 or so pages of this file: Nova Narrative (http://www.novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/Narrative-40K-Primer-2014-NOVA-Open2.pdf)

[Lacy Jones]

Dublicate

[Defenestratus]

Ironclads and Furiosos suggest you are wrong. Both of them were released with the same middling survivability, which has only decreased over time. The one thing Furiosos had going for them - 'exploding' wounds off of their Blood Talons - has been taken away, leaving the pair of them as average-but-not-as-good-as-other-stuff assault specialists who can't hold their own against characters, can't escape tarpits, can't really reliably defeat anything in assault actually, and are basically nowhere near as terrifying as they should be.

The only solid dreadnought is the Contemptor, and that's because it's tougher than leather, has a forcefield, and its Kheres assault cannon are superb. Give the Contemptor stats to the regular dreads but keep the weapon options as they are, give Contemptors AV14 on the front to make them mildly different apart from their weapon options, and I think you solve 90% of the Dreadnought's problems.

I donno - every time I've managed to use a furioso, its done its job. They attract a huge amount of fire and with Str 10 attacks, they always seem to get the job done against anything that they come across... the only issue they really have is with hordes but then hordes don't usually have the strength to get through the front AV13.

Overall I'm really happy with the furi's, even though I'm sad that the blood talon price is too expensive to really take seriously.

[Denzark]

I think giving Dreads MC - lets be honest - going back to when they had T and wounds - will give some parity with all these other 'robotic' walkers - as a SM dread should literally dread nothing. But you need to make some sort of MC (W) category wherein because they are not organic through and through, poison and force weapons does not do as well as it does against MCs. I don't think immune totally - because there is something fleshy inside after all.

However I am a fan of the save modifier. whereas GW introduced HP to show the degrading effect of damage to vehicles, there is no equivalent to show the varying ability of armour to deflect or absorb damage - it is all or nothing. I think on vehicles masquerading as MCs (ie WK, big tau, dreadknight) the effect is even more obvious using the current AV system than a save modifier system.

[Nykidemus]

What really sets aside MCs from walkers, and throws a huge disconnect around the survivability of walkers vs infantry, is Armor saves. This is especially the case in the 6-7th edition environment with Hull Points and mid-stength chip damage being the order of the day for taking down vehicles.

A space marine can be wounded by pretty much any weapon, but will save against anything that isnt armor piercing ~66% of the time. They will happily laugh off Autocannon rounds all day long.

A Dreadnought cant be hurt in the front by anything less than s6, but has no ability to defend itself against massed s6-7 fire. Given it only has three hull points, rather than the 10 wounds a squad of infantry has, it is significantly easier to take down with autocannon fire than a similar number of points worth of SM would be. It CAN die extra-good from dedicated anti-tank fire, but given the point values are usually so much higher it's almost always worth it to just run more medium-shots, even in a dedicated anti-vehicle role.

Big MCs require both high strength AND high AP. Being immune to roughly the same band of infantry weapons that the walker is, but shrugging off autocannon, or even krak missile fire like it isnt there, depending on it's armor save.

That's not even getting into some of the demon prince shenanigans where they can also rack up huge cover saves and such.

The Invuln saves are nice, but they're also really strong, and they dont differentiate what they're strong against. We DO want walkers to be killable by anti-tank fire, as they're effectively walking tanks.

I propose giving walkers a 3+ armor save. This gives them a chance to ignore wounds from mid-range weapons like assualt and auto cannons, as well as krak grenades, but leaves them just as vulnerable as they have been to missiles, lascannons, and other dedicated anti-vehicle options.

[Wildcard]

Okay theorycrafters, what about these changes:

- walkers ignore glances (would increase durability)
- Jink like coversave that would always be on (they move more randomly than tanks after all)
- More damage output (firepower for ranged, close combat provess for assault variants); Walkers rule "may always shoot all of their weapons.. kinda pointless with only 1-2 guns that can actually hurt stuff..

[The Madman]

From reading the rules just now I feel melee-wise they are a bit lacking; you'd expect something that is the size of a large van and is just as heavy to have a bit of smashing power to them. I feel they need an upgraded hammer of wrath attack (and the MCs as well) that works similar to impact hits in fantasy (say perhaps D3 auto hits) and perhaps a Stomp attack at the end of the CC round for them.

as for the Dreads themselves perhaps they need a points drop (going off the Helbrute here) to maybe 80-75 points and allow it to replace it's Power Fist for a ranged weapon rather then just the Multi-melta (like the Mortis Dreadnoughts, never understood why this was never an option for chaos marines). perhaps it comes as 80pts with starting equipment being two DCCs and then give them access to drop a fist (or both) for a ranged weapon (or two).

then again I've not played 7th yet so I don't know if that's balanced or busted as hell.

[phreakachu]

ok...
keep in mind, you gents who keep worrying about their sentines becoming t7, blahblahblah...
were talking dreadnaughts. 2000 year old space marines hardwired into a ginormous killbot.
not private first class frank, who gets to pilot a chickenwalker because he pulled the short straw and had to clean the previous pilot out of the cockpit.
were talking centuries of experience in the art of killing danm near everything the galaxy has to toss at him.

dreadnaughts should be monsterous creatures. period. the marine didnt die, he got a promotion.
because ive been hardwired into this ginormous killbot for a friggin millennium, but i cant seem to remember that i should shoot at the thing charging at me.and ive forgotten how to fight like the rest of my chapter.

something like this...
ws 5
bs 5
s 6
t 7
i 4
a 3
w 4
ld 10
sv 3plus, 5plus invulnerable

special rules
eternal warrior, fearless, chapter tactics
rampage... because a dread is 12 tons of stomping, whirring, killy death. and for fracks sake, when 20 termagaunts swarm one, he should be stepping on them, and swinging, and killing.

unstoppable... d3 how hits


ironclads would get 2plus armor, 4plus invuln,

venerable, 4plus invuln, add one to ws, bs or initiative.

extra armor, reroll armor and invuln saves.

[Mr Mystery]

I think all Walkers could go down Infantry stats, simply because there is a meatsack pilot involved somewhere (counting Necrons as fleshy for this :p).

Sentinels? Statted in the realms of Tyranid Middlebugs.

Dreadnoughts - as discussed, could vary quite wildly.

It's been an interesting read so far - I wasn't aware I was in good company with feeling Dreadnoughts are currently a little 'meh'!

[Kirsten]

dreadnoughts, leave them as vehicles, make them all armour 13 and all WS BS 5. makes no sense that the venerable hero of the chapter suddenly has ordinary marine stats. Give them an extra attack each, and an extra D3 attacks each round in combat to represent general stamping around, flailing with big arms etc.

Dreadknights are weird, fluff wise they are there to go toe to toe with greater daemons and the like, in reality, get utterly stomped by them every time.

[Lexington]

So my AV12 Sentinels become T7 3+ W2 for only 40pts each? Seems mighty fine to me.
A serious laugh out loud to this. :D

A good point, tho. I'm not sure if Armored Sentinels are a single wildcard case, here (one remedied with a special rule, like, they stay T5 as per normal Sentinels, but get a 2+ armor save), or if there's more big problems that'd make this system unworkable. Have to take a closer look - Defilers might also get too strong from this, fr'ex.

Alternatively, one could treat Walkers like Super-Heavies in regards to ignoring the effects of Vehicle Damage Chart results, and give them an armor save. That'd probably mitigate the relative Walker/MC disparities, and is a little easier to implement. Less elegant, tho, as we still have the weird and sort of arbitrary split between the two.

[LCS]

I would just love a reason take basic dreadnoughts in my army again. I have always loved the models so much, they are kind of iconic. But right now aside from Mortis pattern dreads they generally don't pay out for me. It pisses me off that single lascannon can take one out, but a Riptide, Daemon prince, or big bug usually takes several times it's point cost to bring it down.

[Charistoph]

Should we go in to how the Necron Triarch Stalker conversion would work?