I am loving 40k right now!

[Mr Mystery]

Adjective to your Elderly Aunt and Verb to your second cousin!

Dunno about anyone else, but I am feeling very hyped about 40k these days.

I'm not just talking rules - it's the models and the spangly new forces we're getting.

In the past 12 months, we've finally seen Imperial Knights bestride the board. I've longed to see this ever since I first played Titan Legions (I missed original a Epic!). To me they're very 40k.

From there, we've seen a consistently high quality of models being released. Although a reluctant painter, I greatly enjoy building the kits. Not only are the latest releases spectacular sculpts, but they go together really nicely - better than any that came before.

This year of course, seems to be the year of the 'really cool, long awaited' stuff.

Harlequins are now a small army in their own right, with some spangly new units bunged in. Again, this is something I've always been interested in seeing.

Eldar have got a book worthy of 2nd Edition in terms of its toys, and apart from Storm Guardians, which continue to baffle me, there's nary a duff unit within its hallowed pages. Distortion Weapons are now Strengh D, which is background awesome.

Mechanicus are also finally getting some serious lovin'. I've even kicked off a Skitarii army, and the models are bloody excellent.

Then? MOAR KNIGHTS! Yay!

It's been like a 4 month Christmas!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Tbh I was bored of 40k up until this year - this years really done it for me, harlequins, mechanicum ect the neverending codex cycle of the past was just getting too boring and stagnant for me. I wanted to see totally new stuff and they seem to be fullfilling wish en-masse. I'm actually finding myself feeling excited like I did as a kid, wondering what crazy stuff they'll come out with next as things like Genestealer cults, Hrud and such don't seem the impossible dreams they once were but something that could actually happen now.

[Mr Mystery]

I think you just nailed it.

I've always been pretty rabid when it comes to GW stuff, but these releases have blown away an ennui I didn't realise was there.

I'm frothing like a good'un about the Skitarii stuff. Whilst I appreciate he's not to everyone's tastes, the models are straight out of John Blanche's sketchbook. They look how Mechanicus stuff should look - technohorror. Soldiers willingly submitting to mutilation of their bodies to be one with the machine.

The Imperium itself is really starting to feel like the Imperium. If anything, I'd say Space Marines need to Gothic it up a bit more.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I was slumping badly with 40k last year. WHFB was much more exciting with the End Times and so on. Now I'm all enthusiastic about Eldar again (all three variants!). I know that as soon as I get a force together, the new Fantasy stuff will drop. God dammit.

[40kGamer]

It's weird, wild and wonderful... I'm loving the 'new and long awaited things', Knights, Harlies, Mechanicus but I'm not at all enthused with codex rewrites hitting a 2 year cycle. For me that's just way too fast and is encouraging me to just set out of the game itself for a while and stick to the models. I'm also loving the game for fluffy friendly play but not enjoying events as much. Regardless it's really been a roller coaster ride the last couple of years! ;)

[Erik Setzer]

Is this supposed to be an all-positive thread? If so, I can come back and remove my comments.

I'm a gamer, so right now, 40K has me feeling worse about it than ever.

Sure, all the new releases are cool, but I can't really afford them, and I'm already annoyed when I see things like multiple books I paid for being useless 3-12 months after release, which is less money I could spend on models. Plus I bought all the Warhammer End Times books and a lot of the models, and those are now just... doing nothing. People grew sick of the End Times stuff quickly, and the big game that should have been fun had people trying to pull some shenanigans or whatever, and it just got tiring. So that's a lot of money doing squat. And when so many new releases are over $100, it's hard to get excited about them.

My biggest problem with 40K right now is that the balance is getting insane, and it's become an arms race. If I want to keep up, I need to switch armies, then spend a lot of money on bigger, nastier stuff. GW wins there, but I lose big. And those matches just don't feel fun. Too many games end up with what should be a nicely balanced "all-comers" list getting wiped out because it couldn't deal with a particular death star or two, and I'm not wanting to drop hundreds of dollars and play a non-fluffy army just because it's better able to deal with other non-fluffy beat-your-face-off lists. It's insane to see what had been a community of people who played for fun and loved narrative battles and hated people making beatstick lists and trying to roflstomp their opponents being changed into beatstick players, but it's what I see happening. There are a handful who still want to play narrative games for fun, but the number is dwindling rapidly as more people just give in and adopt what seems to be the new norm. I can take losing games. I just can't take sitting there with units that should be capable of putting up a fight and watching them instead just bounce off the other army while it runs through mine like nothing.

I've tried playing other games with people lately, and they feel so much better. More narrative battles. The units all feel like they're doing something productive. Entire forces cost less than many of the models that are now part of everyday 40K. At that point, it's hard to keep wanting to go back, with a tweaked list, and watch it get mauled because you don't want to torture the fluff and drop a bunch of cash to build the latest hot list (which, in time, will have its units nerfed and new stuff released or beefed up, meaning you get to pay more and change things again). It feels like Magic: The Gathering, only taking an agonizing amount of time for each match.

So right now, I find the current era of 40K actually prompting me to look at other games, and having me less enthused than ever for 40K.

[Arkhan Land]

as happy as I am for what they are making the Sega fan in me is a little worried

[HERO]

I'm more unhappy with 40K than I have ever been in 14 years.

[DarkLink]

I'm sorry, you'll have to leave. You're not allowed to be negative, not on Mr. Mystery's watch.

But seriously, they were starting to do a pretty good job of fixing up what they'd broken in 6th. Then, I guess they just gave up or something.

[Ivarr]

My biggest problem with 40K right now is that the balance is getting insane, and it's become an arms race. If I want to keep up, I need to switch armies, then spend a lot of money on bigger, nastier stuff.

Or you could spend the time you are wasting second guessing the rules and complaining learning to compete in the current meta with the armies you already have?

And while you are at it try and enjoy watching some of the coolest stuff GW has ever released being added every week.

[daboarder]

my attitude to 40k at the moment is basically summed up in this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=199&v=-MQTcV8pcZo

- - - Updated - - -


Or you could spend the time you are wasting second guessing the rules and complaining learning to compete in the current meta with the armies you already have?

And while you are at it try and enjoy watching some of the coolest stuff GW has ever released being added every week.
:rolleyes:

Reset the "why balance is important" clock guys.

Maybe we should start keeping track of every time the "positive" crowd attacks a poster for simply stating that they would like more balance? might shed some light on who the actual problem is

[Erik Setzer]

Or you could spend the time you are wasting second guessing the rules and complaining learning to compete in the current meta with the armies you already have?

It's that kind of attitude that ruins the game.

[Arkhan Land]

That video is incredible when they get to the part about the sicarians, i almost cried

[daboarder]

That video is incredible when they get to the part about the sicarians, i almost cried

I liked the part about, "No, we have already done those books....next tau"

[deinol]

It's really all about who you play against. The two stores I (just started to) go to seem to have lots of cool people. We all play to have fun, and it works out.

I haven't played this much 40k since college.

[40kGamer]

The days when anyone even tried to make sense of PV's in the game are well in the past.

http://www.mathfunny.com/images/mathpics-mathjoke-mathmeme-pic-joke-math-meme-haha-funny-humor-pun-burns-cat.jpg

[Defenestratus]

I'm oddly feeling the same about it as Mr Mystery, which is weird because I'm usually a debbie downer. Its not just the Eldar codex that I'm incredibly happy with, its the fact that there are Harlequins, and Ad mech, and soon to be about a half a dozen more "little" factions that will spice up what people show up to the LGS with. Its all a great adventure. I'm happy that GW isn't letting old rules rot on the vine for more than a couple years - and that we can all look forwards to releases for our favorite armies regularly now.

I think the people that don't like 40k right now can't handle change. Their ant hill is getting stomped on right now because they can't "keep up" with the latest and greatest trends anymore due to the pace of releases. I actually think this is a good thing. It will weed out the people in the community who only care about winning and focus more onto the people who truly enjoy the game for what it is - a game with incredibly interesting factions and fluff that you can re-enact on the table top with a buddy over a beer (or three).

[Denzark]

I am liking the variety and the depth of the game - it is an infinite sandbox. But I don't like the 'mystery' aspect of the release schedule - even though I understand it is either/or the newline cinema confidentiality /apple marketing to generate flash sales figures on release / to stop CHS leeches - I am an adult. i like to plan, budget, be aware of stuff.

Yes I bought codex knights 2 weeks back. I will have played exactly 2 games with it.

If GW let me plan in advance, I would drop more money because I would save it rather than drink it and give GW the change.

[Erik Setzer]

Allow me to counter some things.

1. I have no problem with change. However, when I'm required to change my entire army at the expense of hundreds of dollars, that becomes a problem, yes.

2. One of my biggest problems is that there are so many units that right now feel like they do absolutely nothing, or at least so little that it feels like they might as well not be there. Like Space Marine Tactical Squads, which I love for the fluff, but bolters bounce off a lot of monstrous creatures, do nothing to tanks, and don't do much to slow down something like Thunderwolf Cavalry, who only need about three guys to mulch through four Tactical Squads (only a *slight* exaggeration). Heck, a lot of times it comes down to rock-paper-scissors army selection, and if I wants to play RPS, I could do that without spending 4-5 hours.

3. A new codex every couple of years might not be so bad if they weren't $50 base. If Orks get an update in a couple of years, here's what becomes obsolete:
Codex $50
Waaagh! Ghazghkull $50
White Dwarf (21?) $4
Red Waaagh! Ork formations $50
Hour of the Wolf formations $50
Stormclaw character
Let's be generous and leave out the campaign books and say, "Hey, you can still use them for Planetstrike" (oh, except that's available as a $17 download). Still over $100 of rules gone after just two years. Which is what Eldar players went through. And Knight players are already paying $41 more for a new codex. And the core rulebook is $85. Pulling $50 or more out of us every couple of years is not cool. Also, the more factions they release, the harder it'll be to redo the rules that fast. There's nearly 20 factions/subfactions already, not counting digital stuff or upcoming stuff, and not even taking into account supplements like Waaagh! Ghazghkull or Champions of Fenris. Toss in Genestealer Cults, full AdMech, make a Sisters codex, a Deathwatch codex, an Inquisition codex, before you even consider the idea of stuff like Tzeentch Daemonkin, and you're about to hit 24 factions, which will mean that on a two year "refresh" cycle it's at least one 40K army per month getting a new codex, something that can't be feasible if Warhammer gets relaunched successfully. And at some point, that'll become very unprofitable for GW, because it'll drive players to give up buying the books and they'll just "borrow" them more often, leaving GW not just with a lot of unsold books (which get destroyed), but also new books that aren't selling.

4. New factions are nice, and it's good to see some classic stuff come back, but some of it concerns me. The Harlequins were okay. The Mechanicus, though, feels like they're going to release three books when one would suffice: two sub-factions and then the core combined faction, drawing out the releases and rules to get as much from people as possible. That concern makes me think I might want to avoid them for now. It's also rough when they're packing things so close together. Harlequins barely had time to be in the spotlight before Daemonkin came along, and then they were quickly forgotten for Skitarii, who were dropped from conversation with the Eldar bringing all manner of madness to the table, and we're about to just toss them aside from collective conscious for the Knights and then the Cult Mechanicus, and then that'll be forgotten for whatever comes next... It feels like there's not enough time for a player to really appreciate a new release before the next big thing comes in and grabs the spotlight, and then passes it off quickly.

I'm trying not to be a "debbie downer," just providing counter-points to the points made, things that people might not consider in their bliss.

Though I do admit that I was stung by the claim that those of us not enjoying the game just dislike change. Aside from feeling like it's an attempt to paint those who disagree in a negative light, it's also incredibly wrong for a lot of us. One of my issues is that, as someone who isn't good with doing the same thing too much and thus has a number of armies (thanks to the passage of time and also inheriting my dad's armies), it's hard to keep up with the updates for the armies I already have, and I like to switch between them.

[Defenestratus]

Allow me to counter some things.

1. I have no problem with change. However, when I'm required to change my entire army at the expense of hundreds of dollars, that becomes a problem, yes.

I don't get this mentality. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have to "change" your entire army. Every couple of years you'll need to buy a new book (or eBook - which can be found online for free fwiw) but nobody is causing you to buy anything or change anything.



2. One of my biggest problems is that there are so many units that right now feel like they do absolutely nothing, or at least so little that it feels like they might as well not be there. Like Space Marine Tactical Squads, which I love for the fluff, but bolters bounce off a lot of monstrous creatures, do nothing to tanks, and don't do much to slow down something like Thunderwolf Cavalry, who only need about three guys to mulch through four Tactical Squads (only a *slight* exaggeration). Heck, a lot of times it comes down to rock-paper-scissors army selection, and if I wants to play RPS, I could do that without spending 4-5 hours.

I feel you - as an Eldar player I just got a book where no units are worthless - except maybe storm guardians. Every unit in there is fun, fluffy and interesting. I want to use ALL of my models now. I really hope that the rules that follow give the players the same feeling of fulfillment.



3. A new codex every couple of years might not be so bad if they weren't $50 base. If Orks get an update in a couple of years, here's what becomes obsolete:
Codex $50
Waaagh! Ghazghkull $50
White Dwarf (21?) $4
Red Waaagh! Ork formations $50
Hour of the Wolf formations $50
Stormclaw character
Let's be generous and leave out the campaign books and say, "Hey, you can still use them for Planetstrike" (oh, except that's available as a $17 download). Still over $100 of rules gone after just two years. Which is what Eldar players went through. And Knight players are already paying $41 more for a new codex. And the core rulebook is $85. Pulling $50 or more out of us every couple of years is not cool. Also, the more factions they release, the harder it'll be to redo the rules that fast. There's nearly 20 factions/subfactions already, not counting digital stuff or upcoming stuff, and not even taking into account supplements like Waaagh! Ghazghkull or Champions of Fenris. Toss in Genestealer Cults, full AdMech, make a Sisters codex, a Deathwatch codex, an Inquisition codex, before you even consider the idea of stuff like Tzeentch Daemonkin, and you're about to hit 24 factions, which will mean that on a two year "refresh" cycle it's at least one 40K army per month getting a new codex, something that can't be feasible if Warhammer gets relaunched successfully. And at some point, that'll become very unprofitable for GW, because it'll drive players to give up buying the books and they'll just "borrow" them more often, leaving GW not just with a lot of unsold books (which get destroyed), but also new books that aren't selling.


I don't really feel the need to buy every single rule that comes out for every faction I own. For example, I have a ton of Blood Angels... probably over 15,000 points of them at this point. I don't own exterminatus. Never saw the need. I own the codex and thats it. Not sure why people feel the need to own rules that they'll never use - and I especially don't get the need for people to own rules for factions they don't even play. I understand the collector aspect of it all too - but thats not limited to time. Meaning, if you're a collector of the books, thats great, but don't complain to me that you feel forced to buy the books because you like collecting them... you can buy them at your own pace.



4. New factions are nice, and it's good to see some classic stuff come back, but some of it concerns me. The Harlequins were okay. The Mechanicus, though, feels like they're going to release three books when one would suffice: two sub-factions and then the core combined faction, drawing out the releases and rules to get as much from people as possible. That concern makes me think I might want to avoid them for now. It's also rough when they're packing things so close together. Harlequins barely had time to be in the spotlight before Daemonkin came along, and then they were quickly forgotten for Skitarii, who were dropped from conversation with the Eldar bringing all manner of madness to the table, and we're about to just toss them aside from collective conscious for the Knights and then the Cult Mechanicus, and then that'll be forgotten for whatever comes next... It feels like there's not enough time for a player to really appreciate a new release before the next big thing comes in and grabs the spotlight, and then passes it off quickly.


I'll certainly take the current release cycle as opposed to the way it *used* to be. It used to be YEARS between when I would pick new stuff up - it keeps things from getting stale in the game. I loathe the 3 month wait times between 40k releases as it created a void in interest for me in 40k excitement.



I'm trying not to be a "debbie downer," just providing counter-points to the points made, things that people might not consider in their bliss.

Though I do admit that I was stung by the claim that those of us not enjoying the game just dislike change. Aside from feeling like it's an attempt to paint those who disagree in a negative light, it's also incredibly wrong for a lot of us. One of my issues is that, as someone who isn't good with doing the same thing too much and thus has a number of armies (thanks to the passage of time and also inheriting my dad's armies), it's hard to keep up with the updates for the armies I already have, and I like to switch between them.

I'm sorry that you were stung. If it makes you feel any better, I hate change in my life outside of 40k. Its tough to plan for and even tougher to embrace. I'm currently freaking the hell out that in 3 months time, I don't know where in the world I'll be living, or if my spouse will have a job. I'm trying to keep reasonable about it but just the prospect of my life *changing* has me thoroughly uncomfortable. I hate it, I'm losing sleep and my health is suffering over it (my eyes have started bleeding again, for which I'm having lascannons blast my retinas later this afternoon to fix).

However, this change in 40k is welcome to me and I only embrace it because its creating a richer, more diverse wargaming environment that I'm particularly enjoying - even before my primary faction was updated.

[confoo22]

4. New factions are nice, and it's good to see some classic stuff come back, but some of it concerns me. The Harlequins were okay. The Mechanicus, though, feels like they're going to release three books when one would suffice: two sub-factions and then the core combined faction, drawing out the releases and rules to get as much from people as possible. That concern makes me think I might want to avoid them for now. It's also rough when they're packing things so close together. Harlequins barely had time to be in the spotlight before Daemonkin came along, and then they were quickly forgotten for Skitarii, who were dropped from conversation with the Eldar bringing all manner of madness to the table, and we're about to just toss them aside from collective conscious for the Knights and then the Cult Mechanicus, and then that'll be forgotten for whatever comes next... It feels like there's not enough time for a player to really appreciate a new release before the next big thing comes in and grabs the spotlight, and then passes it off quickly.

I'm trying not to be a "debbie downer," just providing counter-points to the points made, things that people might not consider in their bliss.

Though I do admit that I was stung by the claim that those of us not enjoying the game just dislike change. Aside from feeling like it's an attempt to paint those who disagree in a negative light, it's also incredibly wrong for a lot of us. One of my issues is that, as someone who isn't good with doing the same thing too much and thus has a number of armies (thanks to the passage of time and also inheriting my dad's armies), it's hard to keep up with the updates for the armies I already have, and I like to switch between them.

My theory on the current release schedule with all the new releases is that they're trying to cram as much 40k stuff as they can before they focus on the rollout of WHFB 9th for about two to three months solid. I must admit that it would be really nice to be able to take a breath from the constant release of codexes and see how these armies actually play on the tabletop.

And Erik, I know I've personally said some negative things about you in the past, but honestly, don't let people get you down about that kind of crap. Too often people forget (myself included unfortunately) that others online are also people who are allowed their opinions and come from their own background and have their reasons for thinking the way that they do. Just because someone doesn't enjoy the rapid release or the direction of the game doesn't make them some kind of wretched being who has an ulterior motive or is brainless, sometimes they just do or don't like the way things are going because they do or don't like the way things are going. No one deserves to be ostracized or mocked for expressing opinion in a clear, non-combative fashion that's meant to add to the conversation in a constructive fashion. Again, I know my personal history with certain comments may go against some of what I wrote here, but we are all imperfect beings, aren't we?

As for the original topic, I am personally really enjoying 40k lately. I've been in an escalation league at my local store, playing more games than ever with another private club, and hit up a local tournament. Though there have been some bad games where my dice betrayed me and some games where rules discussion take up more time than dice rolling, I feel like I've never had such a variety of opponents who are all interested in just playing some 40k as I do now. Also helps that I don't care so much about winning. One of the best games I've ever had was where I got absolutely stomped by new BA, but the opponent and I were just laughing and hanging out. As weird as this may sound, for me the game is always better when it's less about the game.

[Alaric]

Is this supposed to be an all-positive thread?

LOL yer never positive dude, unless yer positive aboot disliking this game that you repeatedly remind everyone you dislike. You get an A for consistency though.

Started in fifth and have loved the game more every single year. I think what i like most though is the fact that every year there seem to be less nay sayers which is A Ok as the world seems more full of whiners lately. I look forward to the next 2 years as I think they found out (finally) how they wanna do things.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I'll admit to having more fun playing 40K over the past few months than I have at any time in the past. However, it's almost in spite of the current rules rather than because of them. I found myself mentoring a new group of 40K players, and I came up with house rules to curb the worst of the excesses 7th edition creates. As a result, we've yet to have a game that was not at least reasonably close, and it's not uncommon to have games that are right down to the wire.

Our house rules are below, if you're interested.
1: Armies should be 40% Troops. So a 1000pt army should have 400pts in troops, a 1500pt army should have 600pts in Troops, and so on.


2: Allies / Detachments / Formations
Armies must be comprised of at least one Battle Forged Primary Detachment. Army lists may not include Allies from Codices representing fully fleshed out factions. Army lists may include Allies from Dataslates, as long as they do not draw units from Codices representing fully fleshed out factions. Army lists may include Formations, which may be fielded as additional Detachments as necessary.

3: Flyers rules
We're going to handle flyers a little differently than what's in the rules. People with flyers, don't include them in your lists. However, at game time, you can tell your opponent you'd like to include a flyer. If your opponent agrees, you can include the flyer without altering your list. Your opponent then has the opportunity to add an equal number of points to his/her list. They can take any combination of flyer of their own, a unit with Skyfire, and/or a fortification with an anti-air upgrade, up to the amount of points the flyer you are using. No more than 1 flyer may be used per list.

4: Super heavy vehicles / Gargantuan Creatures
As with Flyers, do not include them in your main list. At game time, you can tell your opponent you would like to include one of these. If your opponent agrees, you can include the unit in question without altering your list. Your opponent then has the opportunity to ad an equal number of points to his/her list. This unit takes up your Lord of War slot on the FOC.

5: A player may only use the power dice from one psyker at a time for casting powers or for making dispel attempts. Dice from multiple psykers may never be combined for a single roll.

[blueshift]

Allow me to counter some things.

1. I have no problem with change. However, when I'm required to change my entire army at the expense of hundreds of dollars, that becomes a problem, yes.

2. One of my biggest problems is that there are so many units that right now feel like they do absolutely nothing, or at least so little that it feels like they might as well not be there. Like Space Marine Tactical Squads, which I love for the fluff, but bolters bounce off a lot of monstrous creatures, do nothing to tanks, and don't do much to slow down something like Thunderwolf Cavalry, who only need about three guys to mulch through four Tactical Squads (only a *slight* exaggeration). Heck, a lot of times it comes down to rock-paper-scissors army selection, and if I wants to play RPS, I could do that without spending 4-5 hours.

3. A new codex every couple of years might not be so bad if they weren't $50 base. If Orks get an update in a couple of years, here's what becomes obsolete:
Codex $50
Waaagh! Ghazghkull $50
White Dwarf (21?) $4
Red Waaagh! Ork formations $50
Hour of the Wolf formations $50
Stormclaw character
Let's be generous and leave out the campaign books and say, "Hey, you can still use them for Planetstrike" (oh, except that's available as a $17 download). Still over $100 of rules gone after just two years. Which is what Eldar players went through. And Knight players are already paying $41 more for a new codex. And the core rulebook is $85. Pulling $50 or more out of us every couple of years is not cool. Also, the more factions they release, the harder it'll be to redo the rules that fast. There's nearly 20 factions/subfactions already, not counting digital stuff or upcoming stuff, and not even taking into account supplements like Waaagh! Ghazghkull or Champions of Fenris. Toss in Genestealer Cults, full AdMech, make a Sisters codex, a Deathwatch codex, an Inquisition codex, before you even consider the idea of stuff like Tzeentch Daemonkin, and you're about to hit 24 factions, which will mean that on a two year "refresh" cycle it's at least one 40K army per month getting a new codex, something that can't be feasible if Warhammer gets relaunched successfully. And at some point, that'll become very unprofitable for GW, because it'll drive players to give up buying the books and they'll just "borrow" them more often, leaving GW not just with a lot of unsold books (which get destroyed), but also new books that aren't selling.

4. New factions are nice, and it's good to see some classic stuff come back, but some of it concerns me. The Harlequins were okay. The Mechanicus, though, feels like they're going to release three books when one would suffice: two sub-factions and then the core combined faction, drawing out the releases and rules to get as much from people as possible. That concern makes me think I might want to avoid them for now. It's also rough when they're packing things so close together. Harlequins barely had time to be in the spotlight before Daemonkin came along, and then they were quickly forgotten for Skitarii, who were dropped from conversation with the Eldar bringing all manner of madness to the table, and we're about to just toss them aside from collective conscious for the Knights and then the Cult Mechanicus, and then that'll be forgotten for whatever comes next... It feels like there's not enough time for a player to really appreciate a new release before the next big thing comes in and grabs the spotlight, and then passes it off quickly.

I'm trying not to be a "debbie downer," just providing counter-points to the points made, things that people might not consider in their bliss.

Though I do admit that I was stung by the claim that those of us not enjoying the game just dislike change. Aside from feeling like it's an attempt to paint those who disagree in a negative light, it's also incredibly wrong for a lot of us. One of my issues is that, as someone who isn't good with doing the same thing too much and thus has a number of armies (thanks to the passage of time and also inheriting my dad's armies), it's hard to keep up with the updates for the armies I already have, and I like to switch between them.

Oh my god, for once I agree with Setzer!

Someone earlier said "its an adventure". Adventure in GOTCHA! tactics, maybe.

There was once a point where I could say I had every weapon profile memorized, and it didn't feel like a burden, but now it definitely feels like a burden.

That same person earlier said "people are afraid of change". As far as the meta goes, yes, its change. But adding new stuff to the rules set without any sense of balance for all the other existing rules creates a ridiculous arms-race snowball effect. The temptation to buy stuff just to counter a guy you don't like (or hell even someone you do like) is pretty damn high and GW is 100% aware of that fact.

GOTCHA!

then the next week the opposing player buys a unit or two, paints it up for another GOTCHA!

ping-pong back and forth until the players are confronted with the next codex when player 3 enters the fray. GOTCHA!

Of course this is not a scenario with 100% player saturation, there are the competitive players (bless their hearts) and narrative players (which have problems with the existing rules balance).

Personally I'm probably going to freeze my model purchases until the dust settles.

Finally, I can join the ranks of inactive complainers at Bell of Lost Souls! WE. ARE. LEGION!

[40kGamer]

I look forward to the next 2 years as I think they found out (finally) how they wanna do things.

I doubt they've settled on anything. GW changes design philosophies faster than a celebrity hosting an awards show changes outfits.

[Lexington]

From an abstract POV, I can enjoy 40K right now. It's great to see smaller factions like the Inquisition, Harlequins and the Mechanicus get the sort of flexible representation I've long wanted them to have. The game itself, from a base rules standpoint, is fun and flexible. There's tools to create a fun game in there, so long as you ignore the crappy Mission system, which sits absolutely opposite of the "narrative" push that the rest of the rulebook takes.

Unfortunately, I play Orks. The Ork Codex, simply put, is no good. It's an army that relies on close combat in a game that heavily favors shooting, and isn't actually very good at close combat anyway. It has shooting attacks that can be devastating if you roll high, but fairly worthless with anything else. There's several other armies that are in a similar boat. There's just no useful reason for my army to take on the new Necrons or Eldar, with their ridiculous firepower, special rules and metaformations - not just against face-stomping competitive types, but even against a normal opponent. It's a sad situation for those of us who didn't make the cut for the new design paradigm, and the vague promise of "someday."

[deinol]

Anyone who was paying attention to the ad mech rumors had a pretty good idea going in that Skitarii was just the tip of the iceberg. So if you want to wait for a mega book, go ahead. You don't have to buy the little ones along the way. I for one am happy to collect them, and reward GW for finally making new factions.

While I can see why it's annoying for knight players to buy a new codex, it sounds like the existing kits aren't changing the rules, so you can keep playing out of your existing book for the foreseeable future.

From my perspective, GW is finally producing enough stuff to satisfy demand. You don't need to buy every book or every model. You don't even need to retool your army much on a new release if you don't want to. Eldar work fine in CAD still.

So I'm loving it. New Eldar book is getting me excited to paint up those aspect warriors that are sitting on the shelf. It'll be a while before I try a little ad mech, but I look forward to facing then on the table.

GW: bring it on. Especially new cool (old) stuff like Sisters, Genestealer Cults, Kroot, Rogue Traders, etc.

[Erik Setzer]

I have said way too much, and deleted a lot more... curse of trying to explain things clearly and using a lot of words. So I'll try for a short series of comments on comments since my last.

When you to change how an army works to match the new rules for the army, it's redoing the army, and it's not cheap. My primary army is Orks, and they went hardcore away from the assault they used to be good at, to now being much more of a shooty army, which meant completely changing the army. I got lucky, I had the stuff around to change my army for the most part, but if I hadn't, it'd be hundreds of dollars. The army isn't playable the way it used to be. There are other armies that have changed. Space Wolves got a lot of new stuff, and that's their counter to other nasties, so if you have a SW army, you need some of that stuff. My Blood Angels, the last time I played them, weren't that deviated from normal Marines, but now have special tanks, special Dreadnoughts, Honor Guard, etc. (mercifully Deathstorm alleviated some of the costs).

Being mainly an Ork player is probably one of the biggest issues for my enjoyment of the game. I painted thousands of points of models to build a new army, and now it feels like it just bounces off of other armies and gets run over. Some I can give a good showing, like I could probably have a good match with Khorne Daemonkin (which would be quite funny, too). Necrons? Eldar? Space Wolves? Even Skitarii? Not so much. And one-sided affairs take a toll on a person.

I do like seeing the new stuff. I talk about it with people, I help make sure people are informed of what's coming up, I've bought some of it (yeah, I have Execution Force on the way). Which is why it sucks for me to feel like I do about the game. Despite how some people would portray my feelings on the game, I really do like 40K as a universe and a lot of the models and all, and I do my best to bring in new people to the hobby and get them stuck in there... but man, it just takes a toll on you to realized you can't compete in the rock-paper-scissors style, especially when you don't have any of those to bring to the table. I can spend a lot of money and paint a lot more stuff (not likely soon, as I've done ~6-7K of Orks and 7K of Undead in less than a year's time) to get back into being able to not be blown off the table (for now), but then you look at all the cool board games out there, and other minis games to try, and it's hard to want to shell out even more money after being burned so many times.

I guess I have a "love-hate" relationship with it. Love the fluff (most of it), love the models, hate the current rules (meaning codices and all) and how expensive it's getting.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Orks are in the same position this edition that Chaos Space Marines were for 6th: first codex out the gate in a new edition seems not to actually be representative of the new edition philosophy (probably because it was substantially written in the previous edition, or with playtest rules primarily in mind), while the "true" pattern only really emerges after about a year or so. Necrons, with its bespoke Detachment structure, was probably the first fully-formed 7th edition codex.

I wish it were otherwise, fwiw. It's always sad to hear that people aren't enjoying the army they've invested so much into.

[Lexington]

Orks are in the same position this edition that Chaos Space Marines were for 6th: first codex out the gate in a new edition seems not to actually be representative of the new edition philosophy (probably because it was substantially written in the previous edition, or with playtest rules primarily in mind), while the "true" pattern only really emerges after about a year or so. Necrons, with its bespoke Detachment structure, was probably the first fully-formed 7th edition codex.
The structure and layout of Codex: Orks makes me think that it was written with 7th fully in mind. More, it was the first book of a fairly toned-down series. Those were all very much 7th Edition books. The Necrons and Eldar don't represent "real" 7th Ed development - they're a mid-edition change, most likely brought on from internal panic over the company's poor financial showing.

Also, I'm pretty sure most any Chaos Marine player would remind you that they're still stuck with that crappy 6th Ed book, while the Eldar have gotten not one, but two top-tier books in the interim. :p

[deinol]

My only experience with orks this edition was losing to Orks and Necrons in a team tourney (I was Harlequins, my partner Tau).

I also watched someone at the store destroy a marine army with the Green Tide. Once he made contact it was a slow grind as the power klaws made their way to targets.

[Erik Setzer]

I also watched someone at the store destroy a marine army with the Green Tide. Once he made contact it was a slow grind as the power klaws made their way to targets.

I love my Orks, but that had to be a horrible Marine player. The Green Tide is unwieldy, full of Orks with 6+ armor (maybe 5+ FNP), and can't charge multiple units without losing not just the +1A but also the +1S from Furious Charge, meaning you either try to charge all those Orks at one target, or you nerf the snot out of your attacks. Meanwhile, bolters, flamers, pretty much any template weapons, all have loads of fun.

I'm not scared of a Green Tide when I face it, and I won't use it, because it only really serves as a "fluffy" unit/formation.

[deinol]

I love my Orks, but that had to be a horrible Marine player. The Green Tide is unwieldy, full of Orks with 6+ armor (maybe 5+ FNP), and can't charge multiple units without losing not just the +1A but also the +1S from Furious Charge, meaning you either try to charge all those Orks at one target, or you nerf the snot out of your attacks. Meanwhile, bolters, flamers, pretty much any template weapons, all have loads of fun.

I'm not scared of a Green Tide when I face it, and I won't use it, because it only really serves as a "fluffy" unit/formation.

He did multiple charge, tying up several units. You don't need to kill them first assault, once locked in combat the opponent can't shoot you. As I said, it was watching the slow migration of power klaws into melee. Ork player gets first blood, slay the warlord, and has the footprint to hold or contest most of the objectives on the board. Once he reached combat it was game over.

Edit: Ok, the marine list wasn't particularly equipped to handle close combat. He didn't have assault termies or anything. I'm still not certain it would have made a difference.

Ps: wish you were nearby. I'd love to try my harlequins against your orks. While I have fun, my list isn't exactly broken.

[vonDietdrich]

He did multiple charge, tying up several units. You don't need to kill them first assault, once locked in combat the opponent can't shoot you. As I said, it was watching the slow migration of power klaws into melee. Ork player gets first blood, slay the warlord, and has the footprint to hold or contest most of the objectives on the board. Once he reached combat it was game over.

Edit: Ok, the marine list wasn't particularly equipped to handle close combat. He didn't have assault termies or anything. I'm still not certain it would have made a difference.


Assault termies are a pale shadow of what they used to be, as far as close combat effectiveness versus point cost goes. Assault marines would be a better metric, since often the best defense against a melee list is to engage them before they can reach your shooters. If you had two squads of Assault Marines to engage the Orks in the center of the table, the rest of the Tide will be stuck trying to squeeze around the melee to get to your shooters (which is cumbersome if it works at all, depending on terrain placement). I'm a Blood Angels player though, so my view of Marines is a bit biased.

If an Ork player got first blood with a melee list against marines.. the marines must not have had shooting OR melee. Taking out 30 orks in a single shooting phase should be something a Marine player can do blindfolded. As others have pointed out, there's just so much good shooting available to the 'good' codexes, and close combat has been really underpowered since 6th.

[deinol]

Assault termies are a pale shadow of what they used to be, as far as close combat effectiveness versus point cost goes. Assault marines would be a better metric, since often the best defense against a melee list is to engage them before they can reach your shooters. If you had two squads of Assault Marines to engage the Orks in the center of the table, the rest of the Tide will be stuck trying to squeeze around the melee to get to your shooters (which is cumbersome if it works at all, depending on terrain placement). I'm a Blood Angels player though, so my view of Marines is a bit biased.

If an Ork player got first blood with a melee list against marines.. the marines must not have had shooting OR melee. Taking out 30 orks in a single shooting phase should be something a Marine player can do blindfolded. As others have pointed out, there's just so much good shooting available to the 'good' codexes, and close combat has been really underpowered since 6th.

To get first blood against the green tide don't you need to kill all of the orks? They only have one unit.

[Mr Mystery]

And just a quick recap.

Although intended as a thread of positivity, this isn't some exclusive club. Anyone can post anything (except Ponies, 'splodge), just make sure it's constructive to keep a discussion going.

[Power Klawz]

It's hard to say precisely how I feel about the current state of Games Workshop's offerings. On the one hand it is quite encouraging to see these mini-factions and even a full blown new faction coming to light, on the other hand these new shiny things are happening at the expense of what I really want: A full scale modernization of the existing product lines.

Adding in a new scale to the game with super heavies and the like is ok with me, it'd be nice to see some more variety in that avenue but the minis are cool.

Ever since the Dread knight I've had to monitor my eye roll reflex to make sure my eyes don't roll right out of my head though. Every few months it seems like something really stupid looking or sounding comes around and I can't help but think that this is the cost of the accelerated production methods and asinine legalities. Making cool new imperial storm trooper models with lots of option? Cool beans. Giving them a stupid looking dune buggy to roll around in and calling them Asstrum Tempertantrus or whatever, completely ridiculous. A lot of the feel of the settings seems to be ebbing away to make room for WOW! BIG! COOL! but like, the childhood afternoon television definition of cool, which obviously isn't cool at all.

Some of the new Mechanicus stuff looks pretty sweet though, so maybe there's still hope for the aesthetic. The plethora of obscenely priced books is somewhat annoying, but ultimately pointless since I don't buy the vast majority of them anyways. The new "decurion" style army lists are predicated on what might be a good idea, but executed in such a manner that its obvious they're nothing more than a money grab. That pissed me off. They could have spent some time and developed a more robust and unique army building experience for your army, but instead they simply instituted a tax on acquiring unit buffs. A lot of these sub unit types are horrendously obvious, combining new minis with woefully outdated ones in an attempt to clear out old stock.

Calling everything a knight is also so super awesome that I could just crap myself.

[Erik Setzer]

To get first blood against the green tide don't you need to kill all of the orks? They only have one unit.

Well, Green Tide is a formation you can take in a larger army, so not necessarily one unit. Saw a guy using one in a match a couple weeks ago, but he also had other stuff (the list would sound like a lot, but I also have to qualify that it was a 3K match).

If the army was just one unit, it can't split its firepower, so it'd have to rush into combat quickly. Should be relatively easy to maneuver around. A lot of fire poured in, hit them with Overwatch, and then the Marines should be able to deal enough casualties to keep combat close or win. Not as easy as doing it with normal Ork hordes (where you can blast them down to around 10 models and then let them assault you and be sure you're going to win combat), but definitely doable.

Green Tide is fun to use when you just want to throw a mob of Orks at the enemy, but it just isn't really that feasible. For a hilarious match, though, pair a Green Tide with a Stompa and laugh at the suggestion that you care about such pedestrian concepts as "Leadership tests." Take an Allied Detachment or CAD, add Painboss to the Green Tide (102+ Orks with FNP), a Big Mek with 4+ KFF in the Stompa, some Grots to eat points, a unit of Burna Boyz with some converted to Meks in the Stompa, and spare "bonus" Meks in the Stompa, and just walk forward shrugging off all kinds of shots, taking no Ld, repairing every bit of damage to the Stompa.

Actually, I think I've just come up with the list to use against my buddy's IG this weekend. (He wants to do an Orks-IG match because we play fluffy lists and give each other a good match. Though if Pask is on the table, I will obliterate his entire army without remorse. For principle.)

[Alaric]

Well, Green Tide is a formation you can take in a larger army, so not necessarily one unit. Saw a guy using one in a match a couple weeks ago, but he also had other stuff (the list would sound like a lot, but I also have to qualify that it was a 3K match).

If the army was just one unit, it can't split its firepower, so it'd have to rush into combat quickly. Should be relatively easy to maneuver around. A lot of fire poured in, hit them with Overwatch, and then the Marines should be able to deal enough casualties to keep combat close or win. Not as easy as doing it with normal Ork hordes (where you can blast them down to around 10 models and then let them assault you and be sure you're going to win combat), but definitely doable.

Green Tide is fun to use when you just want to throw a mob of Orks at the enemy, but it just isn't really that feasible. For a hilarious match, though, pair a Green Tide with a Stompa and laugh at the suggestion that you care about such pedestrian concepts as "Leadership tests." Take an Allied Detachment or CAD, add Painboss to the Green Tide (102+ Orks with FNP), a Big Mek with 4+ KFF in the Stompa, some Grots to eat points, a unit of Burna Boyz with some converted to Meks in the Stompa, and spare "bonus" Meks in the Stompa, and just walk forward shrugging off all kinds of shots, taking no Ld, repairing every bit of damage to the Stompa.

Actually, I think I've just come up with the list to use against my buddy's IG this weekend. (He wants to do an Orks-IG match because we play fluffy lists and give each other a good match. Though if Pask is on the table, I will obliterate his entire army without remorse. For principle.)

I faced pretty much this exact list this past weekend. Its tough for all the reasons you said, you should play it and rekindle yer gaming love dude. Who knows, it may even generate a positive post from you.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think you just nailed it.

I've always been pretty rabid when it comes to GW stuff, but these releases have blown away an ennui I didn't realise was there.

I'm frothing like a good'un about the Skitarii stuff. Whilst I appreciate he's not to everyone's tastes, the models are straight out of John Blanche's sketchbook. They look how Mechanicus stuff should look - technohorror. Soldiers willingly submitting to mutilation of their bodies to be one with the machine.

The Imperium itself is really starting to feel like the Imperium. If anything, I'd say Space Marines need to Gothic it up a bit more.

See, I find that interesting because I don't see the blanche weirdness at all (bar that awesome spider legged tech priest) myself and you aren't the first to mention that. To me, It looks much more industrial, more along the lines of the Solar Auxillia - which I happen to like a lot too, but it's not what I want from mechanicum. Maybe they'll come out with more exotic stuff later on once the army has proved it's popularity (Which I think it will, easily)

[HERO]

I feel you - as an Eldar player I just got a book where no units are worthless - except maybe storm guardians. Every unit in there is fun, fluffy and interesting. I want to use ALL of my models now. I really hope that the rules that follow give the players the same feeling of fulfillment.

And in my experience that this "hope" you speak of, gets crushed time and time again due to inconsistency and sheer idiocy.

I've just been disappointed too many times. As I get older, and mature as a gamer, I just don't have the time or motivation to flip armies at the pace GW wants. If their rules were actually consistent and that all armies can play at the same level, I would love the game. Sadly, one must face reality and I'm not going to give them another 14 years of my life holding onto a prayer that they'll suddenly know what they're doing.

Time, is important to me now more than ever. More companies are starting up and starting to dominate the space that GW has held defiantly in the last 20 some years. These companies are business smart, tech savy, understand the power of social media, and tap into community resources, all the while sporting equal or better design philosophies than GW. Tell me, aside from fluff and IP (which I love), why, as a GAMER, should I deliberately choose to support a company that has consistently failed me after I've given them so much in return? The logical answer is that I shouldn't. I shouldn't because GW does not give a **** about me as a gamer. They have recently announced that they are a collectibles company and not a game company. This is HORSE**** first and foremost. Why? Because the second you attach rules for a game onto the models you provide, you are a gaming company. Stating that they are a collectible miniatures company is simply a cop-out for saying they do not care about the game.

With that, I begin my long exodus away from GW. I'm starting with my massive Tyranid army, then I'm going to sell my Eldar remnants, but I'll probably keep my oldest and greatest love which is Dark Eldar. If GW ****s up 9th Ed WHFB, I'm selling everything. This is the year I put an end to the long abusive relationship that is GW. And it pains me greatly.

[Erik Setzer]

I faced pretty much this exact list this past weekend. Its tough for all the reasons you said, you should play it and rekindle yer gaming love dude. Who knows, it may even generate a positive post from you.

You do realize that continued personal attacks are not positive posts themselves? And not really helpful to this conversation, as they aren't adding anything 40K related that could at least be debated?*



*Debate doesn't have to be a "bad" thing, it helps people learn perspectives they might not have thought of.

[Auticus]

Our Badab campaign is finishing up. Top of our standings:

#1 - Orks 7-2
#2 - Orks 7-1

While orks don't have any blatant win buttons, I don't think that they are a hopeless or super weak codex. As we have not one but two ork players in our campaign that have terrorized people with them, I just can't think that they are that bad. I agree they aren't super strong and OP but in the hands of a good player they are more than competent.

Reference: www.louisvillewargaming.com

[Power Klawz]

How to play orks: Fill all points with bommers. Destroy all life.

[Erik Setzer]

Our Badab campaign is finishing up. Top of our standings:

#1 - Orks 7-2
#2 - Orks 7-1

While orks don't have any blatant win buttons, I don't think that they are a hopeless or super weak codex. As we have not one but two ork players in our campaign that have terrorized people with them, I just can't think that they are that bad. I agree they aren't super strong and OP but in the hands of a good player they are more than competent.

Reference: www.louisvillewargaming.com


I'd like to see the kind of armies used on both sides, and the missions played. I think Orks can be okay if people make "fluffy" armies. They're still a bit behind some armies, but can give them a run and win. Things fall apart when people bring out the nasty stuff.

Digging through the campaign rules packet, there's a lot of rules in there aimed at limiting stuff, and I see the repeated idea of "don't be a [jerk]." Also some house rules. Pushes narrative gaming. In that case, I think Orks can do well. And that's a fun campaign. I love narrative campaigns. I feel like I'll have to run one for the folks at the local GW to actually have one. But yeah, campaign like that, I think Orks can thrive, and the Ork player can have serious fun getting into the spirit of Orks.

[Tomgar]

Things I like about 40k right now:
- "Niche" factions like AdMech, Harlies etc.
- Best minis there have ever been from GW

Things I don't like:
- Game balance is even further out the window than before. If it was out the window in 6th, it's now a puddle of goo on the pavement. The ludicrously OP Eldar dex, following on so quickly from the bland, flavourless, weak Dark Eldar dex is just a nonsensical approach to game design and it's clear GW have no idea how to actually write a coherent ruleset.

- The new short lifespan of Codices. You can just be asinine and say "it's only a £30 book, just save up bro" all you want, but constant re-writes only add to power-creep and horrifying external balance. Also, the concept of whether an item is "worth it" is entirely subjective. I'd be fine spending money on models, but I personally don't believe that it's worth it to buy a Codex that does nothing to fix the game's glaring imbalances and that is essentially a re-write of something that only came out a year and half ago. Either that or it's a book that just explodes the concept of game balance even further (Eldar, anyone?).


- The positivity police that are on every forum, attacking people for bringing up points like the previous ones. I get that you don't like "whining" but it's BS to try and stop people airing their legitimate grievances. GW are big boys, they can take the criticism. Stop white-knighting.

[Auticus]

Correct Erik, this event was a full on narrative campaign and not a competitive tournament or competitive pick up environment.

I think that those types of events are vital to enjoy the hobby because they let you unleash units and missions you wouldn't normally see.

[40kGamer]

The ludicrously OP Eldar dex, following on so quickly from the bland, flavourless, weak Dark Eldar dex is just a nonsensical approach to game design and it's clear GW have no idea how to actually write a coherent ruleset.

Well Dark Eldar are still the best Eldar supplement to date... :(

[Charon]

Did someone order a taxi?

- Asdrubael Vect (currently on vaccation with Lady Aurelia Malys)

[Wolfshade]

I am loving 40 right now, the skitarii and ad mech are just right :)

I am loving the speed of the new releases and the quaility of the models awesome.

[Denzark]

- The positivity police that are on every forum, attacking people for bringing up points like the previous ones. I get that you don't like "whining" but it's BS to try and stop people airing their legitimate grievances. GW are big boys, they can take the criticism. Stop white-knighting.

If I took apart the OP like an exam question, I'd have to say there was no white knighting. MM mentioned 'models and spangly new forces' - I can't see 'GW' mentioned once and it is actually possible to separate 40K from GW as a concept.

I would say any white knighting came after the doom saying - which was sort of inevitable - someone always crayons over a very positive or very negative thread.

[Mr Mystery]

Air criticism to GW directly.

[Tomgar]

If I took apart the OP like an exam question, I'd have to say there was no white knighting. MM mentioned 'models and spangly new forces' - I can't see 'GW' mentioned once and it is actually possible to separate 40K from GW as a concept.

I would say any white knighting came after the doom saying - which was sort of inevitable - someone always crayons over a very positive or very negative thread.

Wasn't accusing MM of it, I'm just sick of it cropping up on every thread when someone brings up their concerns that, like them or not, are totally legitimate. For all that the 40k community online has this reputation of being full of doom and negativity, I find it's actually more of a den of people who are so fanatical about GW products that it compels them to ride to the rescue every time someone makes a criticism of them.

Don't get me wrong, I still love 40k and GW's products. I wouldn't be posting here or collecting 2 armies otherwise. But I think it's only fair that people be allowed to air their grievances without being attacked for "trolling," "negativity" or "whining." Those complaints are just so obnoxious. Once again, not accusing anyone here of being like that, it's just something I've been getting sick of recently with the online community.

[Denzark]

Both extremes are pretty bad. Its just that if you are in the negative camp you are normally a royal PITA until the point where you rage quit and hock your army on fleabay for cheap. We then have to put up with you coming back to 40K forums to tell us how awesome 'Kill the Caster' is.

(Not saying this is you btw).

However if you are an enthusiast, it is annoying in the same way that a dog who continuously licks his genitals is a bit tiresome after a while.

But enthusiasts bring a net benefit by contributing to the company coffers.

[Alaric]

hehe personal attack = get a positive post from you. Oh Ewick you so cwazy.

and fYi It wasnt remotely an attack (omg really?? lol) i was genuinely saying "yes you should use that list cuz it works and you may enjoy it enough to get more positive aboot the hobby", but hey if I gotta be the bad guy in your world so be it.

[Erik Setzer]

Both extremes are pretty bad. Its just that if you are in the negative camp you are normally a royal PITA until the point where you rage quit and hock your army on fleabay for cheap. We then have to put up with you coming back to 40K forums to tell us how awesome 'Kill the Caster' is.

Eh... I'm one of those people who can enjoy multiple games, and I have to say, having tried Warmachine, I do find it kind of fun. It feels as over the top as it boasts itself to be, and the new edition's Page 5 specifically says that you shouldn't be a jerk to your opponent or anything like that. If you lose too quickly because the caster dies, you had to be doing something pretty stupid, as you can easily hide the caster and keep it from dying. And if you just find other people to play for fun, not beatstick gaming, then it's quite fun, as units smash at each other until they die (yes, there's tactics involved, but you actually feel like you're doing damage usually, even if you don't outright kill something). I'm sure it could get bad with someone playing a beatstick army against someone playing a fluffy army, but 40K has that going on, and isn't designed with the mentality that *every* unit is meant to be "powerful."

That's getting too much into defending Warmachine, when I really just mean as a bigger point that different games can be fun to different people, and there are some of us who like multiple games, and don't find it healthy for people on either side to bash the guys on the other. I think a good day of gaming would include a match of 40K/WFB, a match of Warmachine or Infinity, a match of X-Wing, and maybe something else tossed in. All of them have their own charm.

Also, I seem to be in the "negative camp" according to some people, and I'll never get rid of my armies. The only army I've ever let go of was the one army I had that I didn't paint, which I gave to my brother as a gift (he plays Eldar, it was Eldar)... and that freed me up to paint my own Eldar army as I prefer. If I ever set aside 40K, even for a long time, I'm not getting rid of armies. I'm not playing my Undead right now, but man, they look awesome on a shelf, they were my work, and I'm not about to let someone take them from me (especially cheap), because I have a very personal connection to them (and every other army I paint, even the ones I did for my dad). I know a lot of other gamers - possibly most - don't feel that way, but it's just the way I view my relationship with my models.

[DarkLink]

Both extremes are pretty bad. Its just that if you are in the negative camp you are normally a royal PITA until the point where you rage quit and hock your army on fleabay for cheap. We then have to put up with you coming back to 40K forums to tell us how awesome 'Kill the Caster' is.

(Not saying this is you btw).

However if you are an enthusiast, it is annoying in the same way that a dog who continuously licks his genitals is a bit tiresome after a while.

But enthusiasts bring a net benefit by contributing to the company coffers.

It's only kill the caster in small games. Regular games are very, very much about objectives. Unless you're dumb enough to give you opponent a shot at an assassination run, at least.

[Da Gargoyle]

I have to say I'm a lover ;) I like WH40K a lot as well. Just on some of the comments, like the models upgrades, people should learn to blend. For example with the release of the new jet bikes I bought 3 to mix in with the units I already have. The new ones will carry the heavy weapons, which explains the variation.

As for Storm Guardians, I love them but they were curiously ignored by GW as far as a new model was concerned. I bought the accessories to convert a Guardian set, which did not work well because they supplied parts for 8 troops and Guardians came in a ten man squad. So I went back to the drawing board and blended DE Wyches with the guardian kits. They gave me a dynamic looking assault squad with flamers or fusion guns and the DE pistols add to the flavour. I also wound up with a different looking Guardian Defender squad also.

Anyway, some of the older models add to the flavour of the whole thing implying the passage of considerable time for some members of the army. For me WH40K is still exciting.

[Denzark]

That's getting too much into defending Warmachine, when I really just mean as a bigger point that different games can be fun to different people, and there are some of us who like multiple games, and don't find it healthy for people on either side to bash the guys on the other. I think a good day of gaming would include a match of 40K/WFB, a match of Warmachine or Infinity, a match of X-Wing, and maybe something else tossed in. All of them have their own charm.

That's pretty mature and spot on. My point was not that diversity is bad. It was more that there is a vocal (hopefully) minority who come onto 40K forums or posts about 40K purely to say a mix of 1 or more of these things:

1. I got out (what like you're a beaten spouse who needs credit for finally going).

2. I am saving 1 million dollars a year (well done Richard Branson).

3. GW is the Shaitan and drank the blood of my firstborn, made my crops die and my cattle miscarry.

4. My new ruleset is tighter than a Nun's Chuff and is moar funner than a happy ending in the Playboy Mansion.


Now I look at the frontpage comments on other games from time to time. I have never seen a GW fanboy apologist crayon over those. On the other hand, I have repeatedly seen what I describe above.

[Lost Vyper]

Well, my main army (Eldar) just got even a stronger codex. My second army (Dark Eldar) lost about half in it´s own codex. I still tried and played LOADS of games with a pure DE-lists (of course with some Formations from Coven) and loved the intensity of the matches, some won, some lost. Now it´s time for the Eldar. Just have fun with it and make lists, that´ll not spank the s*** out of the opponent from the get-go...

Did i need a new Eldar codex? No.
Am i happy now? Yes.
Why? Because i can use more units now, and don´t have to listen the endless whining about the Wave Serpents. Rangers got their Shrouded back, hurray! I can use Banshees now, hurray! Exarch´s got two wounds (i think every Sargent or such, should have two wounds, Nobz do already!) and are cooler with their abilities, hurray! I haven´t got a game in yet, with the new Eldar codex, but i´m psyched about the fact, that i can try SO MANY units, that´ve been s***ing or kinda meh.
Am i going to spam WK´s or bikes? No. In my first list, there´ll be no WK´s. Just trying the new way to build a list. I think in Maelstrom, losing the ObSec, can hurt, but that´ll have to be seen...

- Lost Vyper

[Path Walker]

"Oh look a thread about people talking about how positive they feel about their hobby and favourite game, best do a great big smelly **** all over that"

[Path Walker]

Also, the rules for green tide says they must be deployed as one full unit, throw in another detachment of boyz and a painboy, painboy joins the Green Tide and you have over 300 wounds at T4 with a 5+ FNP, swarm the board and use it to restrict an opponents maneuverability.

[Erik Setzer]

3. GW is the Shaitan and drank the blood of my firstborn, made my crops die and my cattle miscarry.

I think I did see a reference to Games Workshop in Leviticus somewhere... Right behind D&D, even.

[Auticus]

That's pretty mature and spot on. My point was not that diversity is bad. It was more that there is a vocal (hopefully) minority who come onto 40K forums or posts about 40K purely to say a mix of 1 or more of these things:

1. I got out (what like you're a beaten spouse who needs credit for finally going).

2. I am saving 1 million dollars a year (well done Richard Branson).

3. GW is the Shaitan and drank the blood of my firstborn, made my crops die and my cattle miscarry.

4. My new ruleset is tighter than a Nun's Chuff and is moar funner than a happy ending in the Playboy Mansion.


Now I look at the frontpage comments on other games from time to time. I have never seen a GW fanboy apologist crayon over those. On the other hand, I have repeatedly seen what I describe above.

I see that a lot as well. Often times its people trying to recruit others out of GW games and to the game system of their choice. Some will even admit as such. A couple of days ago in one of the comment threads there was a guy who said that it was his personal mission to bankrupt GW and promote every other game and would do so at every opportunity. Those things are fairly common if you read forums on a daily basis.

[Path Walker]

People (nerds) get too obsessed when the confuse a business decision they don't agree with and a personal slight. Its not your job to care if GW make a poor business decision (unless you're a share holder), its your job to either buy or not buy its products, thats the only part you have to play. You can decide not to buy the products because of a business decision they've made, but the arrogance of assuming that thinking that you as a fan of a wargame knows better is stunning.

[Mr Mystery]

I see that a lot as well. Often times its people trying to recruit others out of GW games and to the game system of their choice. Some will even admit as such. A couple of days ago in one of the comment threads there was a guy who said that it was his personal mission to bankrupt GW and promote every other game and would do so at every opportunity. Those things are fairly common if you read forums on a daily basis.

Odd. It's my personal mission to make as much money as I possibly can through legal means, and then wazz that munneh up the wall on whatever I damned well please.

Perhaps said contributor ought to try getting a job?

[Path Walker]

He'd probably a lot less butthurt about the prices if he did

[Kirsten]

40k is better than ever, so many awesome armies that can be fielded, loving it.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think 40k as a whole has gotten much better, although I miss a lot of the cool stuff 5th had as far as the assault phase goes, 7th edition has been fantastic. Maelstrom is pretty much all we play now with the occasional eternal crusade. I've already played more games in 7th than all of 6th combined.

I've also recruited several old guard back into the game, and they have told me how much they love the new edition and the ability to make some amazingly fun unbound and allied lists.

I do feel for my tournament friends, and listen to them lament every once in a while about 5th edition and how close it was the closest to being great for the competitive scene. But honestly alot of us now talk about all the new shinies, and how every turn matters and not just move shoot and camp until last turn where you then turbo boost claim/contest abstract objective 2, to win/draw the game, which is boring, and never really held my interest in a 3-4 hour game.

Not only that but I don't feel like I have to take a ton of troop choices unless I just want to have extra objective secured. And to be honest, I'm still having a hard time pulling away from the old FOC. Even though everything scores, I just can't not include troops! To me the best thing about the troops selection now, is they don't feel like as much of a tax anymore!

And while on that note, let's talk about scoring. How amazing tactical objectives are is fantastic for the game. I relate it to sports, low scoring games aren't sexy these days, scoring is great because it adds an additional level of excitement to the game, we've seen it in American football lately, as offenses accelerate it brings more of the common john into the mix where before they wouldn't be so inclined to watch, in this case partake in a game.

It is much cooler having a 3-4 hour beer and shop talk feel and being able to look down at your note pad and see a score of 11-7 7-6 or even 25-18 than 2-2, 2-1 or 3-1.

Just my opinion.

[Erik Setzer]

I see that a lot as well. Often times its people trying to recruit others out of GW games and to the game system of their choice. Some will even admit as such. A couple of days ago in one of the comment threads there was a guy who said that it was his personal mission to bankrupt GW and promote every other game and would do so at every opportunity. Those things are fairly common if you read forums on a daily basis.

That's a horrible approach to take. Better to introduce people to other games in a positive way. I'd do it just because I think some other games are cool and variety is good, especially as I do like playing skirmish-level games and 40K's running as far from that as possible. The correct approach would be to show people other games in a positive way, and if they like the game, that game will get some of their money, which is less money going to GW, which could prompt GW (if enough people do it) to change something. Sadly, they probably don't have the presence of mind to see a trend like that and think, "Hmm, people are leaving our games to go to skirmish-level games. Perhaps we should put out a skirmish set of rules that we can sell using our existing models to compete with these other games and bring back the wandering players."

Bankrupting them ain't gonna happen. And taking that negative approach then causes people to view the game(s) you're trying to promote in a negative way... and it all goes downhill from there.