Doom of Malan'tai CAN still target embarked troops

[foostoofoo]

Well its been an iffy one. But the latest 40k main rulebook FAQ has still not cleared it up I'm afraid, like people seem to think.

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

The Doom of Malan'tai's ability is not a psychic power I'm afraid.

So there you go, feel free to check it out on the main GW website.

[MightyOrang]

Isn't the Doom just a jumped up Zoanthrope? So by definition ALL of its attacks would be psychic, even if it's not expressly stated in the psychic powers sheet, or as a psychic shooting attack

To me, the answer (to the conundrum) is more about fact that it's a field, vice something the Doom throws out. He doesnt 'target', right? he just has the big field o' spirit leech ...

[RocketRollRebel]

To me it seems to come down to two groups of people. One group (probably tyranid players :p) desperately wants it to work on embarked units. The other group doesn't(me and every mech imperial player:o). Both have already made up there mind how they want it to work and are looking for rules to support it. I personally have yet to encounter this d-bag but I'm hoping and thinking that I have enough s8 in my little metal boxes to deal with him before he causes too much of a ruckus.

I'd really love to see a definitive FAQ that says "for ****s sake! It (does or doesnt) effect embarked units! Now go away!". Not sure why its taking so long, unless they are doing ridiculous amounts of play testing to determine how un balancing it is or not. Lets hope that its for that reason that GW is dragging its feet.:)

[Bean]

Your first assertion, RocketRollRebel: that the only people who think the Doom works against embarked units are Tyranid players who want it to be more powerful, is only matched in puerility by your second assertion: that everyone who doesn't think it works on embarked units is an Imperial mech player who want it to be less powerful.

Discounting the notion that some people don't care and have come to their conclusions by reading the rules without some prior bias is just silly.




Isn't the Doom just a jumped up Zoanthrope? So by definition ALL of its attacks would be psychic, even if it's not expressly stated in the psychic powers sheet, or as a psychic shooting attack

No, it wouldn't mean that at all. When the Zoanthrope bashes enemies in combat, is that a psychic attack?

No. He's lashing them with his tail, or whatever.

The fact that the model is a psycker does not, in any way, indicate that all of its attacks are psychic attacks. That assertion is obviously absurd.

Further, of course, Spirit Leech isn't an attack at all.

It's an ability. It's not a psychic power. The fact that the Doom is a zoanthrope doesn't change this at all.

[Melissia]

Psychic attacks cannot target a unit in a transport.
Shooting attacks cannot target a unit in a transport.
Assault attacks cannot target a unit in a transport.

There is nothing expressly stating that the Doom can target a unit in a transport with all of its psychic powers that aren't called psychic powers (yes, that is what Spirit Leech is), but there's plenty of precedence against it being able to.

[RocketRollRebel]

Your first assertion, RocketRollRebel: that the only people who think the Doom works against embarked units are Tyranid players who want it to be more powerful, is only matched in puerility by your second assertion: that everyone who doesn't think it works on embarked units is an Imperial mech player who want it to be less powerful.

Discounting the notion that some people don't care and have come to their conclusions by reading the rules without some prior bias is just silly.

Hmm yeah sorry about that. I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything. I was trying to keep my tone light (hard to do on teh interwebz, hence the gratuitous use of smiley faces;))

That said I would let my embarked units be hit by it. I think I'm more just annoyed by the lack of clarity and the fact that its all I've been hearing about for the past month. Whining about this thing or that thing being OP just gets old after a while. Like when new rumors come out and you get that guy whos post is "creep creep creep". Well play better and learn to deal with it!

Okay I'm done before this turns into a ridiculous off topic rant:o

[Shavnir]

Psychic attacks cannot target a unit in a transport.
Shooting attacks cannot target a unit in a transport.
Assault attacks cannot target a unit in a transport.

There is nothing expressly stating that the Doom can target a unit in a transport with all of its psychic powers that aren't called psychic powers (yes, that is what Spirit Leech is), but there's plenty of precedence against it being able to.

Good thing it doesn't target anything then eh?

Basically there's two groups, those that think it effects units in transports and those that didn't actually sit down and read the relevant rules.

[Madness]

There's already a thread about this in the rules section (where it belongs).

[Melissia]

Basically there's two groups, those that think it effects units in transports and those that actually sit down and read the relevant rules.
Right you are.

[david5th]

There's already a thread about this in the rules section (where it belongs).

Which has been closed by the way for fear of debate infinitum.
(Unless another one has been started.)

[DarkLink]

Well its been an iffy one. But the latest 40k main rulebook FAQ has still not cleared it up I'm afraid, like people seem to think.

That big ol', ginormous thread over this in the rules sections... yeah, it took about one page to establish that doom isn't a psychic power.

The argument over doom hasn't really had anything to do with psychic powers for quite some time, thus the FAQ doesn't answer the issue.

That doesn't mean the debate is solved.

[Renegade]

That doesn't mean the debate is solved.

It is tiresome however, and comes down to how different people a groups interpret the rules. Personnally, I am against as are my nearest GWs, but the interwebs debait goes round and round.

I hope its FAQ'ed just to end the debate.

[Madness]

there's a thread about this in the rules section.

[Melissia]

Right, so can a mod merge the three threads? (one in tactics, one in rules, one in this forum)

[gcsmith]

TBH faq wont end anything, the FAQ is as legit 'acording to site' as my bum burps saying im president and it being true. However for GW events they are, but it still wont end the debate.

[Gir]

I love playing with a gaming group where rule disputes like this never happen. We play with common sense when stuff like this comes up, and common sense says that it cannot target embarked units.

[Madness]

TBH I'm all for common sense (my personal guru is Steve Krug, whose company is called Advanced Common Sense) but it'd be nice to talk to Mr.Cruddace and find out if he meant for Spirit Leech to be the exception to the rule, or if he just forgot to clarify it didn't work.

Only out of game design curiosity.

[Commissar Lewis]

Personally, I really don't care about whether or not it affects embarked units. My broke *** only has one chimera in my army, and a decent amount of anti-tank weps what could easily bring down the sonuvva***** creature causing all the hooplah.

*above statement said in the voice of General Knoxx*

[Tynskel]

I love playing with a gaming group where rule disputes like this never happen. We play with common sense when stuff like this comes up, and common sense says that it cannot target embarked units.

Common Sense would be to use the rules that are laid out for the two players.

Common Non-Sense would be to disregard the rules that are laid out for the two players.

[Renegade]

Common sense would say you work out what the groups interpretation of the rules are, and that anything that causes arguments is dealt with before playing. This can sometimes result in house rules, also known as FAQ's.

[Tynskel]

Common sense would say you work out what the groups interpretation of the rules are, and that anything that causes arguments is dealt with before playing. This can sometimes result in house rules, also known as FAQ's.

Common sense would say people go look up the definitions of the words they are reading.

When you do that, the number of 'interpretations' drop significantly.

[Renegade]

Common sense would say people go look up the definitions of the words they are reading.

Yeah, but then you get the whole codex vs rule book, and assualt ramps not being ramps you can assualt from because your codex was written when there was a rule in the last rule book meaning you could, but that was last edition, and now theres no rule.

Common sense works through these things, talking out the problems and trying to enjoy a game.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, but then you get the whole codex vs rule book, and assualt ramps not being ramps you can assualt from because your codex was written when there was a rule in the last rule book meaning you could, but that was last edition, and now theres no rule.

Common sense works through these things, talking out the problems and trying to enjoy a game.

Common sense doesn't work through these things. People trying to have fun does.

If you go to a strict rules tournament, 'common sense' doesn't happen.

What is important is that you are consistent with the rules and understand what is actually written. When one plays with friends, changing rules could be the regular thing to do. What if you go somewhere else to play? The easiest way to deal with that situation is to use what the rule book states, with their house rules added.

Common Sense is a copout. It is a situation where people want others to stop arguing with them, even though they know that they themselves are doing was wrong.

For Example: My local association is having a land dispute with home owners. Homeowners built on association land, and the association wants it back. The Home Owners got themselves elected to the board (through a re-call) and now use 'Common Sense' to solve the problem. Common Sense being: Drop The Case against the Home Owners. Now, people who FOLLOWED the rules and paid their association dues have now lost access to the public lands due to 'common sense'. The issue has not been resolved because there is DOCUMENTED rules against this, and all that is happening is a delay in the process.

Common Sense is a bunch of Doo Doo.

[Gir]

If you go to a strict rules tournament, 'common sense' doesn't happen.

This is why I would never play a tournament for a game system that openly admits there's a lot of holes and ambiguities in the rules.


For Example: My local association is having a land dispute with home owners. Homeowners built on association land, and the association wants it back. The Home Owners got themselves elected to the board (through a re-call) and now use 'Common Sense' to solve the problem. Common Sense being: Drop The Case against the Home Owners. Now, people who FOLLOWED the rules and paid their association dues have now lost access to the public lands due to 'common sense'. The issue has not been resolved because there is DOCUMENTED rules against this, and all that is happening is a delay in the process.

Except, as you say, there are clear rules against this, so common sense doesn't apply. I'm talking about using common sense to solve a problem where rules confilct, are not clear, or just don't exist.

For Example: A blast melta weapon. All blast weapons scatter, so how do you determine whether the double penertration roll applies? Does it:

A. Apply if the intended target is within half range, regaurdless of where the template lands
B. Apply if the final resting place of the template lies within half range.

This was a real dispute, and I believe there's a thread in this forum somewhere about it, when simple common sense says B is how it should be calculated.

[slxiii]

most people can be happy just making a common sense decision, agreeing on it, and moving on with the game. For instance, in a game today, i got a weapon destroyed on an opponents battle wagon, and we decided that a spinning death roller of...death..... is probably a weapon. It didn't affect the game too much, everyone seemed pleased with the outcome, and it was a close fought and fun game.
Then again, other people have fun using 1/17-1/20 of the points in their army to drop a single unit that destroys ALL of the other guys infantry, even if they are in transports, aaand doesnt allow armor or cover saves. Then of course you fall back and die in your own transport(makes sense!)

[Absolutionis]

I'm surprised that after so much debate and after so much argument, people still don't understand that Spirit Leech isn't targeted, isn't shooting, and isn't psychic.

Either way, if you take the rules strictly, there is no rule saying it cannot affect units in vehicles and there is a rule saying it affects units within a range. Thus, it affects units in vehicles. Most major tournaments agree on this ruling and anyone that whines against it is free to play their own homemade version while everyone else plays 40k.

[Madness]

anyone is free to play their own homemade version while everyone else plays 40k.
To which I reply:


THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!
[...]
The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours.
So, yeah, let's ALL play 40k.

[Tynskel]

This is why I would never play a tournament for a game system that openly admits there's a lot of holes and ambiguities in the rules.



Except, as you say, there are clear rules against this, so common sense doesn't apply. I'm talking about using common sense to solve a problem where rules confilct, are not clear, or just don't exist.

For Example: A blast melta weapon. All blast weapons scatter, so how do you determine whether the double penertration roll applies? Does it:

A. Apply if the intended target is within half range, regaurdless of where the template lands
B. Apply if the final resting place of the template lies within half range.

This was a real dispute, and I believe there's a thread in this forum somewhere about it, when simple common sense says B is how it should be calculated.

Hmm...

I wouldn't say the rules are clear or not clear in my Home Owner Association: The shear fact that they had a re-call election and decided to 'drop' the issue through 'common sense' demonstrates at great lengths people will go through to always be 'right'.

By the way: The rulebook p. 30
'Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a scattering shot to land beyond the weapon's range and line of sight, representing the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random chance. In these cases hits are worked out as normal, and can hit units out of range and sight (or even your own troops, or models locked in combat).'

Because the rule says 'hits are worked out as normal' that means your work out as though you aimed at the final point. The Final Position is all that matters.

[Fellend]

The entire thing is silly. Clearly the troops are hiding in "Elsewhere" only actually existing to shoot out of the vehicle as it's specified that they can do so. There are no non-vehicle targets for the doom to hit as they are INSIDE a vehicle.
He can't affect vehicles with his power, why would it somehow be able to ignore the vehicle to hit the ones inside?

What's next? Striking people in deepstrike because they are within 24" standing outside of the table? Do they fall back into the table? Or better yet, let him strike people playing on the table next to you so they are dead in any future games!

Think people...

[beagle1]

The entire thing is silly. Clearly the troops are hiding in "Elsewhere" only actually existing to shoot out of the vehicle as it's specified that they can do so. ?
Think people...

It's actually when I start to THINK it becomes rather silly that the "elshewere" troops ARE able to target Doom[from the transport where they don't seem to be?], but Doom shouldn't be able to target them in the transport from where they are shooting at him.

Cheers B1

[Fellend]

Been in combat? It's called duck and cover. You shoot, you duck you repeat. It's WHY you stay in vehicles which are protected be serious amount of armour.

My most favorite example being the swedish army putting snipers inside tanks. The snipers shot out of the tank barrel to snipe hostile snipers in bosnia. You know what the enemy snipers did? Fired back uselessly against serious amounts of armor.

Not to mention if we take that power into account we cause so many insane rules to come into effect which by all reasonable standards where clearly not meant to be messed with. You cannot fall back out of a vehicle, you know why there are no rules for this? because it can not be done. You cannot take casualties in a vehicle why? because there are no rules for this.

Stop trying to twist the every single word in the english dictionary to feed your little plastic miniature, he's cool enough as it is without him destroying the gameplay for every unsuspecting newbie.

Don't make 5000 threads about it just because you get beat down in the first. Quit it already. The solution is simply ,ask your opponent, see what he thinks, play with that.

[beagle1]

Been in combat? It's called duck and cover. You shoot, you duck you repeat. It's WHY you stay in vehicles which are protected be serious amount of armour.

My most favorite example being the swedish army putting snipers inside tanks. The snipers shot out of the tank barrel to snipe hostile snipers in bosnia. You know what the enemy snipers did? Fired back uselessly against serious amounts of armor.
.

Actually I was, and in former Yougo aswell.
And I bet that if the Serbs would have played the same game some F16's would have taken out the snipers aswell as the tanks out in no time.

Cheers B1

[Shavnir]

The entire thing is silly. Clearly the troops are hiding in "Elsewhere" only actually existing to shoot out of the vehicle as it's specified that they can do so. There are no non-vehicle targets for the doom to hit as they are INSIDE a vehicle.
He can't affect vehicles with his power, why would it somehow be able to ignore the vehicle to hit the ones inside?

Read page 66 then get back to us.

[Renegade]

It's actually when I start to THINK it becomes rather silly that the "elshewere" troops ARE able to target Doom[from the transport where they don't seem to be?], but Doom shouldn't be able to target them in the transport from where they are shooting at him.

The troops though are not technically else where, though the model and thus unit in range is a vehicle.

The Argument becomes; Do the rules on page 66 over rule the rules on page 3? I see nothing there that supports this, so the unit that has been measure to is a vehicle.

Its all on how people interpret the rules, and a joint decission made quikly will mean more game time.

[Shavnir]

The troops though are not technically else where, though the model and thus unit in range is a vehicle.

The Argument becomes; Do the rules on page 66 over rule the rules on page 3? I see nothing there that supports this, so the unit that has been measure to is a vehicle.

Its all on how people interpret the rules, and a joint decission made quikly will mean more game time.

That's not an argument at all, page 66 says you can measure range to the embarked unit by measuring range to the vehicle. Where is your disconnect on this? You measure range to the vehicle, the doom is within 6" of the rhino and the marines, it affects the marines, not the rhino. Simple as that.

[beagle1]

You measure range to the vehicle, the doom is within 6" of the rhino and the marines, it affects the marines, not the rhino. Simple as that.

The new FAQ seems to make everything even clearer as it clearly mentions the two units;ie transport and transported unit when talking about the shooting ristrictions of both these units. I and everybody else I play with in Holland interprets it the same as in the quote.

Cheers b1

[Renegade]

You measure range to the vehicle, the doom is within 6" of the rhino and the marines, it affects the marines, not the rhino. Simple as that.

Except that the Marines dont have a unit on the board as reference. But if thats how they play it in your area then what's the problem? Thats how your group like to play it.

[Shavnir]

Except that the Marines dont have a unit on the board as reference. But if thats how they play it in your area then what's the problem? Thats how your group like to play it.

They don't need one because of page 66. You really keep talking back and forth in circles but I don't think you've sat down and just read the rules carefully. What you're claiming is that you can measure range to embarked troops by measuring to the rhino but then you've switched targets from the troops to the rhino.

You're overcomplicating things. Page 66 lets you measure range to a unit by proxy of its transport. Simple as that.

[Renegade]

You're overcomplicating things. Page 66 lets you measure range to a unit by proxy of its transport. Simple as that.

Nope, I am just going by the rules, nothing in the rules changes what a unit that is represented by a model is once it is measure to is. If you want to simplify them to suit your meaning and your groups decission then fine. Each to there own opinion of the rules. Its a hobby after all.

[gcsmith]

No one is saying the vehicle changes. However the vehcile represents the vehicle. not the men inside. Pg 66 perfectly states that you may hit the UNIT INSIDE by measuring to the transport. It doesnt say the unit is a vehicle but says u may measure to them, so now you are going against the rules not by them.

[Melissia]

Tynskel: "common sense" to me says that you are wrong. But then I suppose you don't want to use common sense, you want to use YOUR sense. Which isn't common.

[Renegade]

Pg 66 perfectly states that you may hit the UNIT INSIDE No, page 66 states that you can find the loction of the transported unit by measuring to the hull, it says nowhere that you can "hit" them. Page 3 still take priority in that the model/unit is still of the type being measured to. In this case that would be a vehicle. I have gone over this many times in the rules section and I am yet to be contradicted by anything other than opinion.

[Shavnir]

No, page 66 states that you can find the loction of the transported unit by measuring to the hull, it says nowhere that you can "hit" them. Page 3 still take priority in that the model/unit is still of the type being measured to. In this case that would be a vehicle. I have gone over this many times in the rules section and I am yet to be contradicted by anything other than opinion.

Why are you bringing hitting into this? The doom just cares if the location of the unit is in 6", which you just said page 66 does. We have pointed this out many many many times to you, what you need to realize is reading rules, while sometimes difficult, does lead to logical conclusions. Yours is not one of them.

[gcsmith]

Page 66 says you can affect them. This is added to the page 3. Because you would only be measuring to the vehicle and not the unit acording to page 3. pg 66 allows you to measure to the unit inside as well. Also no where on page 3 does it say that the type of a unit is the type of the model you hit. And say that you do and I have a curve ball ready.

[Madness]

Just a second, yes, reading rules bring to a conclusion, whether it is logical or just a mishap due a poorly managed chain of events is really debatable. I think I've shown you with the nice little red dude in the rhino how "logical" that conclusion is.

[Renegade]

We have pointed this out many many many times to you I have read your opinion of the rules, and where it fails. nothing on page 66 changes what is on page 3. That being that in the case of page 66 the unit being measure to is still a vehicle. Its clear and in the rules, it even says that you measure to the vehicles hull, so it can only be therefore, logically, a vehicle.

Can some of this be moved to the rules debate? Same arguments being used in both.

[BuFFo]

+1

[Melissia]

Page 66 says you can affect them. This is added to the page 3. Because you would only be measuring to the vehicle and not the unit acording to page 3. pg 66 allows you to measure to the unit inside as well. Also no where on page 3 does it say that the type of a unit is the type of the model you hit. And say that you do and I have a curve ball ready.

You keep saying this... but I have page 66 spread out in front of me. There is nothing on page 66 that declares the unit might be able to actually effect the passengers. You are stretching things in order to try and prove your point.

[gcsmith]

So your argument is that measuring to a vehicle makes the unit inside a vehicle right. So what if a Unit has a Independent Monstrous creature joined and you can only measure to the Monstrous creature, then by your logic the WHOLE UNIT counts as monstrous creatures. and thus gain all benefits of being one.

[gcsmith]

And melissa it does say that, it says and i quote If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit then measure to the hull. Doom of malantai measures a range and it involves the embarked unit.

[Bigred]

Moving to 40k rules...

[Shavnir]

You keep saying this... but I have page 66 spread out in front of me. There is nothing on page 66 that declares the unit might be able to actually effect the passengers. You are stretching things in order to try and prove your point.

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting) its range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull"

There's no rule protecting passengers other than ones regarding not having LOS or range to models. Since the Doom of Malan'tai doesn't require LOS or range to models (only units, and yes there is a difference) it fulfills all the conditions of its rule. If you'd like to refute this with a magic invincibility rule for passengers of a transport vehicle you'll have to produce such a rule.

[Melissia]

And? That involves measuring out of the vehicle in order to fire. It does not state that other units may affect the transported unit.

[Renegade]

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit then measure to the hull. It doesn't say that the unit can be effected, just that the location is the same as the vehicles hull, case in point is the word VEHICLE that doesn't change that being the vehicle unit is the unit that is in range.

[gcsmith]

Lol sorry but lol. melissia it says (Except for shooting) so not for units shooting, also TO and FROM. Also The fact that its same location as a vehicle doesnt make them a vehicle.
Also you havnt awnsered my monstrous creature argument.

[Melissia]

Nor does it mean that they can be effected. One of the core ideas of this game is that transported units are protected from enemy fire by the transport. And recently, psychic powers were added to that protection, and so not even psychic powers can effect a unit protected by its transport. Precedent is set, and you have yet to prove that this is an exception to the rule.

[Madness]

My little cousin Timmy had a question. (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=5545)

[gcsmith]

Precedence, Its not a Psychic power, and no where in the 5th edition do vehicles grant blanket resistance. That was 4th edit, and the psychic was recently it was in the last 5th edit FAQ. also, Imperial guards need a rule to stop a commands which are special rules not shooting or psychic power from working in a vehicle.

[Melissia]

It doesn't matter that they are not psychic powers. Precedence does not have to be so specific. To quote the ninth circuit of appeals...
the term is but an abbreviation of stare decisis et non quieta movere — "to stand by and adhere to decisions and not disturb what is settled."
What is settled, then, is that transports provide protection to units inside of htem. That is rather specifically stated in page 66, "Transports provide [...] speed and protection." referring to the purpose of transports on the battlefield. That is not a rule statement perhaps, but it is a statement of intent on the designers, and I see no reason why I should interpret the RAW in such a fashion to contradict this as you are.

[Fellend]

So your argument is that measuring to a vehicle makes the unit inside a vehicle right. So what if a Unit has a Independent Monstrous creature joined and you can only measure to the Monstrous creature, then by your logic the WHOLE UNIT counts as monstrous creatures. and thus gain all benefits of being one.

No not unless the monsterous creature has eaten his fellow members and are carrying them inside him.

More importantly and correct me if i'm wrong, but does the power not say that it affects any units (or models) in range of the doom? if the unit is inside a rhino and especially if the MODEL is inside the rhino there is no unit to affect. I can't see how this is even an argument. There is nothing there but a big metal box, once you've gotten rid of the big metal box do what you want with the insides. But on the table, there is a vehicle. that's it end of story.

(They being able to shoot out is a completely different matter, argued in a completely different set of rules with firepoints being the main point) You simply can't affect units inside transports.

[gcsmith]

We are reading it as it is, It says if you measuring to the unit use the hull, that is what we are doing, And explain to me if thats fluffy and their intention, how a creature that single handely destroyed a craft world should be stopped by a rhino.

[gcsmith]

No not unless the monsterous creature has eaten his fellow members and are carrying them inside him.

More importantly and correct me if i'm wrong, but does the power not say that it affects any units (or models) in range of the doom? if the unit is inside a rhino and especially if the MODEL is inside the rhino there is no unit to affect. I can't see how this is even an argument. There is nothing there but a big metal box, once you've gotten rid of the big metal box do what you want with the insides. But on the table, there is a vehicle. that's it end of story.

(They being able to shoot out is a completely different matter, argued in a completely different set of rules with firepoints being the main point) You simply can't affect units inside transports.

Renegades argument was the model type of the model measured to not that they are in a vehicle per se. and secondly the rules say you can measure to the unit by using the box, which is all the doom needs to do. thats why there's an argument.

[Fellend]

No there isn't an argument. There is a box, the box is not a lie! You can't affect the ones hiding in cover inside the box. Every good wargamer knows that the world ends at the table edge. You can't kill things which aren't in the world.

On a side note a Tyranid that actually at other tyranids and transported them across the battle field would be really cool. Sort of a Landraider Carnifex =)

[Melissia]

We are reading it as it is, It says if you measuring to the unit use the hull, that is what we are doing, And explain to me if thats fluffy and their intention, how a creature that single handely destroyed a craft world should be stopped by a rhino.

Don't argue based off of fluff, I will counter with my own argument on how a FREAKIN' CANONESS CAN TAKE DOWN A HIVE TYRANT ONE ON ONE IN CLOSE COMBAT, and still be healthy enough to lead a months-long hit and run campaign against a Tyranid hive fleet's army in the very middle of its path-- not a splinter fleet, a HIVE FLEET-- which is so effective that the army is bogged down and unable to effectively continue its assault on the shrine world's primary population center.

No, sir, do not throw fluff at me. The fluff is intentionally ridiculous and exaggerated, and the game does not follow the fluff exactly in order to ensure balance.

[gcsmith]

Well im only throwing fluff back when fluff is thrown, if the protection thing isnt rules, its fluff. therefore you must have argued based on fluff.

[Melissia]

Well im only throwing fluff back when fluff is thrown, if the protection thing isnt rules, its fluff. therefore you must have argued based on fluff.

The "protection thing" has nothing to do with the fluff. If a lascannon penetrates a rhino but does not kill it, that lascannon may very well wipe out most of the passengers as it passes through the Rhino. This will never happen in game. The quote I gave is literally the opening line of the transport rules section. It is a statement of intent, a summary of the page, not fluff.

[Madness]

Mel, would you mind answering the linked post please?

[Melissia]

Yes, I do mind :P

[Madness]

But I said please!

[Melissia]

Oh, very well.

[Fellend]

I'm going to go with the fact that GW has said for simplicities sake psychic powers cannot affect squads in transports while the doom might or might not be a psychic power I take the fact that the FAQ was changed so shortly after the dooms entrence into 40k as a hint and the even if its not a psychic power it creates a whole lot of issues which seems to contradict the whole for simplicities sake.

[Shavnir]

I'm going to go with the fact that GW has said for simplicities sake psychic powers cannot affect squads in transports while the doom might or might not be a psychic power I take the fact that the FAQ was changed so shortly after the dooms entrence into 40k as a hint and the even if its not a psychic power it creates a whole lot of issues which seems to contradict the whole for simplicities sake.

I'm pretty sure that was in the old FAQ document as well. Anyways its not a psychic power, the FAQ question has absolutely no relevance on this issue.

[Renegade]

FAQ question has absolutely no relevance on this issue. Which keeps going round and round. If keeping it simple works for felland and his group, then good for them. It may not be strick RAW, but who's complaning. Issues a rise when some one takes issue with the agreed norm, then we get debates where both sides claim they are right. Which does however forget the most important rule, unless you find these types of debate fun.

[Madness]

That's kind of a blanket statement, the FAQ has plenty of relevance, it doesn't change the state of things, but gives us insight on what's going on in the developers mind.

[Shavnir]

That's kind of a blanket statement, the FAQ has plenty of relevance, it doesn't change the state of things, but gives us insight on what's going on in the developers mind.

Near as I can tell the thing that was most prominently on the mind of most of GW's writing staff was the last 3 drinks.

I'm just saying you'd think by the fifth time through they wouldn't be so horrible at writing rules.

[Madness]

Well in the 4th ed manual there's no entry such as the infamous p.66 one so with this new rulebook they got it better (kinda)

The problem is that 40k is not a game made for RAW (see page 2 at the top), it never was, and it might never be, and it's a design limit they force in, since I once spoke with Jervis Jonson and he's clearly one for "meh, just roll a die, 4+ one guy is right, 3- the other one is". What's important to him (and most of the other people working on the game) is that it's fun, and narratively engaging. That's why most of the reports on White Dwarf are special situation with custom rules, limited troops selection and so on...

There are games meant for RAW, Magic the Gathering is a prime example, and they develop 2 manuals, one that is readable and players use to learn how to play, and another that is mechanical and unambiguous, for (aspirant) DCI judges. The technical one looks more like an algorithm than actual prose and it leaves almost no chance for misinterpretation. Not to mention that the cards get errataed pretty often in Oracle.

I tried to pull people's legs with the "range is not distance" debate, since in a technical manual such a situation would really create confusion, and trying to use a non-technical manual as if it was one seems like a fool's errand. See "breaking morale inside of vehicles" or other STILL hazy situations for instance.

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure that was in the old FAQ document as well. Anyways its not a psychic power, the FAQ question has absolutely no relevance on this issue.

It's not directly relevant, sure. But it does give us a precedent for how situations similar to this are handled by GW. So it is, in fact, indirectly relevant.

[Bergermeister84]

The argument becomes, is Spirit Leach a similar situation to a psychic shooting attack? I feel that the answer is no.

[Shelfunit]

Is there a "Schrodinger's cat" problem here? Are the embarked troops in the vehicle or not? If the troops inside have the capacity to affect things outside their vehicle, then logically external influences should be able to effect them. This is only a "common sense" answer, as the rules are infeasably foggy I would play towards common sense.

[Renegade]

is Spirit Leach a similar situation to a psychic shooting attack? I feel that the answer is no Now as it happens in the shooting phase, I would say maybe.
Is there a "Schrodinger's cat" problem here? Are the embarked troops in the vehicle or not? If the troops inside have the capacity to affect things outside their vehicle, then logically external influences should be able to effect them. But that pay no heed to the rules governing what effects them.

Personnally, I may just quit the debate. I think I have made my position clear.

[Fellend]

I see it as a command and conquer situation. Can't remember the vehicle but the Allied little car that infantry can run into which boosts its attack. That infantry soldier gives the vehicle a new firing mode or improves the one it already has. = Fire points, not as much as they shoot out of the rhino more like the empty weapon slots on the rhino that exists from the beginning (and in the codex) can now be used

But just as the soldier cannot be damaged untill the vehicle is destroyed and he once again becomes useful and actually exists in the game the soldiers in the rhino cannot be harmed untill they exit it. Because they are not really there. They simply add statistics to a rhino. Like making it scoring because it contains troops, or lending it two new weapons which may target seperate units. But the rhino is still a rhino and is the only thing that remains on the table.

[gcsmith]

However felland your comparing bullets to a soul draining ability. Bullets have to go through the tank, Since telekinis isnt solid there is no restraint on a physical plane, Just like how a warp hole can be both sides of the tank in fluff.

[Madness]

RAI, the power is psionic in nature, and they FAQed vehicled to provide resistance to Psychic powers. Which is not to say a psychic power (either explicit or implicit) can't be an exception to that rule.

[Ferro]

Personnally, I may just quit the debate. I think I have made my position clear.

lol. In the same vein, I think everyone knows my opinion on the matter.
/insert ten pages here defending the Doom's rights and challenging embarked immunity.
/snip them as a courtesy.

Cheers.

[BuFFo]

Dogs and cats.

[Mortifis]

Forgive me for not checking the forum every single day (shock horror!) but I thought we already had a thread about this? And that since we'd reached a conclusive summary, it was locked.

Read Loken's post >>HERE<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=55972&postcount=342)

The only "argument" brought forward against Spirit Leech is "my unit is only on the table for when I want it to do stuff". Which sounds incredibly childish. The much bandied about "common sense" would be that if you can affect me, I can affect you.

Shooting is completely irrelevant to this issue, because it requires range to a model. You can shoot the Vehicle model, because the model is on the table. You cannot shoot the embarked Infantry, because although the unit is inside the vehicle, they temporarily have no models on the table. Just because they have no models on the table, however, doesn't mean the unit isn't there.

Another point that were tried and failed is "the unit is inside a vehicle, therefore counts as a vehicle". "You measure to a vehicle, the vehicle is not affected, therefore anything inside is not affected" is just a variation on this, which was already soundly defeated.

Link to my post >>HERE<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=54990&postcount=290)


Now again, let us go back to the rules governing transports:

"If players need to measure a range involving the unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull"

Now, if somehow you still fail to grasp the implications of this, I'll break it down into smaller chunks.

"If players need to" This is for BOTH players, not just for the owning player.

"measure a range". Fairly simple, yes? We're measuring a range. 6" from the Doom of Malan'Tai.

"involving the unit". Also fairly simple. The embarked unit is non-vehicle, so is involved.

"(except for its shooting)". This isn't the embarked unit shooting. Moving on.

"this range is measured" This is the important part, telling us HOW to measure...

"to and from the vehicle's hull".

We can measure TO, and we can measure FROM, the transport vehicle's hull to determine if the transported unit is within range. If the transport is within range, the embarked unit is within range.

The vehicle itself not being affected is irrelevant, as we have already proven that embarked units don't magically "become one" with their transport.

I'm not inventing, bypassing, ignoring or in any other way playing without using the entire ruleset.

The only units involved are the Doom, and the non-vehicle units within range.

Infantry are non-vehicle. Infantry in transports are still non-vehicle units.

The ability doesn't care about models, only units.

If the unit is measured to be in range, it will be affected.

We are using the "vehicle hull" as an abstraction to determine the units location. We are measuring range to the embarked Infantry, and the "vehicle hull" determines the Infantry location.

[Fellend]

Yeah god. It's very easy to say it's one way if you simply ignore all opposing arguments as childish. Ever thought of being a politician? I'm sure this revolutionizing way of debate will win you the President seat....

Now using your own logic. And if we assume that line of sight, lack of models transport protection and the common sense of people actually hiding in their armoured vehicles which they have brought along for the specific purpose of providing protection for when they are not shooting out of it.



"(except for its shooting)". This isn't the embarked unit shooting. Moving on.
says who?
"If players need to" This is for BOTH players, not just for the owning player.
Does not actually say that anywhere. it says players. players can just be signifying plural. as in both players might have vehicles.


The vehicle itself not being affected is irrelevant, as we have already proven that embarked units don't magically "become one" with their transport.
When and where does did this become a common fact?
No where do you have any proof for anything you are saying. You are simply saying i've decided on this. And everything else is silly.

Of course it's possible for a unit to only be affected by it's own actions.

Let's say you are a space marine in a rhino. The enemy is outside. You pop up, you shoot you go back inside while they return fire. Repeat. = Common sense = Actual Combat situation

"Sir we have an incoming magical buff your way, open the hatch and recieve it" (or let's say a delivery of ammunition) Yep you pop up recieve it, close the hatch

"Sir the enemy is firing at us" Yep let's stay inside the ARMOR that we have BROUGHT ALONG FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE

"Sir the enemy is shooting at us" Oh yeah. it's okay let them do it, don't close the hatch and let's be fired upon.... common sense...?

I can't believe that you say that we should ignore all rules saying you can't be fired upon in a rhino because it doesn't specify that it CAN'T let me see where it specifies that it CAN. BURDEN OF PROOF.
Using your logic, blast templates would hit the units inside as well because nowhere (that i can find admittedly) does it say that it doesn't hit the models that are inside a vehicle. It simply says that all models that are underneath the template are hit. And assuming all units are inside the vehicle that would be all models then including the transport.
I cannot find anything in the rules that say that the transports protect from this blast damage.

Infact the whole point of having firing points is so that a unit can pop out of the the transport to shoot awhile and then going back into cover. If the vehicle offers no protection why have firing points? they could simply shoot out of the hatch or the doors.

Infact nowhere in the text you've written and no where in the links does it say ANYTHING that proves your point more than that you think it's childish.

Formulate a theory, get evidence to back it up, and then post again please.



The only "argument" brought forward against Spirit Leech is "my unit is only on the table for when I want it to do stuff". Which sounds incredibly childish. The much bandied about "common sense" would be that if you can affect me, I can affect you.

Actually this gets me really upset. What do you mean incredibly childish I pay 58 points per Rhino for that SPECIFIC EFFECT. It's the entire point of having transport (that and speed) It's to offer protection so I can decide when my units are on the table.

It's like saying deep striking is childish because it allows me to some degree to effect when my troops while be on the field and thus affectable of your units.

Or how about tervigon childishness it spawns creatures which can't be hurt untill they are on the board, unit's which costs no points, how childish is that. I mean I can't affect them because they are not even in play yet!

[gannam]

why would you guys waste your time and energy arguing about a rule on a forum with people you will never play warhammer with?

Work it out at your local shops until an FAQ is put out.

You are just pissing in the wind here.

[Rapture]

I really can't see why people have such problems acknowledging that both sides of this argument have some merit.

[Fellend]

I'm not saying that his side has no merit. I like discussing rules but to ignore the other sides argument because they are "childish" and not presenting any kind of evidence to back your side up is... Well I don't know what it is but it bugs me.

[DarkLink]

I'm not saying that his side has no merit. I like discussing rules but to ignore the other sides argument because they are "childish" and not presenting any kind of evidence to back your side up is... Well I don't know what it is but it bugs me.

Calling an argument childish tends to imply that it has little merit.

[Renegade]

I thought all these Doom related debates were locked? Hey Mods! You missed one!

If anyone is bored enough, would it not be better to put up a summary or to have both sides of the argument put in different topics and let people work it out for themselves.

Those in favour of it working on transported units, open them selves up for players to use those rules in ways that they may have over looked.

Those against, may end up facing grumpy Tyranid players put have less rule loop holes.

End of the day, if your group is fine playing it one way, then what is the problem? If not, take it up with them as I think this debate has been flogged, beaten and probed to death.

[HsojVvad]

why would you guys waste your time and energy arguing about a rule on a forum with people you will never play warhammer with?

Work it out at your local shops until an FAQ is put out.

You are just pissing in the wind here.

Actually this is a great place to be pissing in the wind as you say. Would you rather do this with your opponent and have less gaming time, or do it on the internet when no game time is taken away and might learn something new and change your mind?

[HsojVvad]

I thought all these Doom related debates were locked? Hey Mods! You missed one!

If anyone is bored enough, would it not be better to put up a summary or to have both sides of the argument put in different topics and let people work it out for themselves.

Those in favour of it working on transported units, open them selves up for players to use those rules in ways that they may have over looked.

Those against, may end up facing grumpy Tyranid players put have less rule loop holes.

End of the day, if your group is fine playing it one way, then what is the problem? If not, take it up with them as I think this debate has been flogged, beaten and probed to death.

We can always do as I suggested. Talk about one thing at a time and until a consensus was made, be it yes, no, or no judgement lets move onto something else, and then we talk about something else. I tried this on another forum, but it is a little slow, might be better if I try it here since it's a bit bussier, might work better.

[Mortifis]

The tone in my previous post left something to be desired. I do apologise.


"(except for its shooting)". This isn't the embarked unit shooting. Moving on.
says who?Um, unless you're saying that the Doom of Malan'Tai's Spirit Leech is somehow the embarked unit shooting?


"If players need to" This is for BOTH players, not just for the owning player.
Does not actually say that anywhere. it says players. players can just be signifying plural. as in both players might have vehicles.Exactly, players, plural. Which means both players at the table can measure to the embarked unit.


The vehicle itself not being affected is irrelevant, as we have already proven that embarked units don't magically "become one" with their transport.
When and where does did this become a common fact?
No where do you have any proof for anything you are saying. You are simply saying i've decided on this. And everything else is silly.Vehicle units have model type: Vehicle. Infantry units and model type: Infantry. There are no rules in any printed Codex or Rulebook that state that units can change what type of model they consist of.


Of course it's possible for a unit to only be affected by it's own actions.??


I can't believe that you say that we should ignore all rules saying you can't be fired upon in a rhino because it doesn't specify that it CAN'T let me see where it specifies that it CAN. BURDEN OF PROOF.
Using your logic, blast templates would hit the units inside as well because nowhere (that i can find admittedly) does it say that it doesn't hit the models that are inside a vehicle. It simply says that all models that are underneath the template are hit. And assuming all units are inside the vehicle that would be all models then including the transport.
I cannot find anything in the rules that say that the transports protect from this blast damage.
I gave you the proof you needed for this in my previous post. Shooting attacks require models from the target unit to be within range, and usually within line of sight. As I said, the models are not on the table, shooting attacks can't hurt them.

Spirit Leech is not shooting. It also doesn't require models, only the unit to be within the designated range.


Infact the whole point of having firing points is so that a unit can pop out of the the transport to shoot awhile and then going back into cover. If the vehicle offers no protection why have firing points? they could simply shoot out of the hatch or the doors. Yes, that is the entire reason for fire points. Without them, they'd be sitting on the bus, twiddling their thumbs. A bus with bullet-proof glass.


Infact nowhere in the text you've written and no where in the links does it say ANYTHING that proves your point more than that you think it's childish.

Formulate a theory, get evidence to back it up, and then post again please.
Okay, I'll link to another of my posts, even further in the wayback machine. >>LINK<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=49370&postcount=65)

I've quoted every single passage in the rulebook that has any bearing or relevance in the issue.



I pay 58 points per Rhino for that SPECIFIC EFFECT. It's the entire point of having transport (that and speed) It's to offer protection so I can decide when my units are on the table.That's right. You pay points to get speed, and protection from shooting. Nowhere in the rules does it say "the embarked unit is invulnerable to outside influence", so to turn the burden of proof back on you, where does it say this? Where does it say, in black and white, that embarked units are protected from anything?


Sure, I'll admit that there are two sides to the arguement. But unlike some circumstances, there aren't two sides to the rules in this one. The rules are quite clear.

Infantry units are not vehicles. Even when embarked in a transport, they don't stop being Infantry, and they don't start being Vehicles.
The vehicle rules (p66) tell you how you can measure range to an embarked unit.
Therefore if a transport vehicle is within 6" of the DoM, the embarked unit is within 6" of the DoM.
If a non-vehicle unit is within range, then Spirit Leech will affect them.

[Fellend]

The tone in my previous post left something to be desired. I do apologise.



Exactly, players, plural. Which means both players at the table can measure to the embarked unit.

Vehicle units have model type: Vehicle. Infantry units and model type: Infantry. There are no rules in any printed Codex or Rulebook that state that units can change what type of model they consist of.

??


I gave you the proof you needed for this in my previous post. Shooting attacks require models from the target unit to be within range, and usually within line of sight. As I said, the models are not on the table, shooting attacks can't hurt them.

Spirit Leech is not shooting. It also doesn't require models, only the unit to be within the designated range.

Yes, that is the entire reason for fire points. Without them, they'd be sitting on the bus, twiddling their thumbs. A bus with bullet-proof glass.


Okay, I'll link to another of my posts, even further in the wayback machine. >>LINK<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=49370&postcount=65)

I've quoted every single passage in the rulebook that has any bearing or relevance in the issue.



Sure, I'll admit that there are two sides to the arguement. But unlike some circumstances, there aren't two sides to the rules in this one. The rules are quite clear.
The rules are most definitively not clear.


Infantry units are not vehicles. Even when embarked in a transport, they don't stop being Infantry, and they don't start being Vehicles.
This there is no clear rule for. It's that simple. No where does it state that the unit is still on the field. it only says it's embarked. Thus when embarked they are inside the the transport and presumably only the transport can be affected.
If you can find any line in the rule book that says that the unit is infact still on the table I welcome it. But if that's the case then the models exists and thus they would be hit by blasts and templates.

The vehicle rules (p66) tell you how you can measure range to an embarked unit.
Therefore if a transport vehicle is within 6" of the DoM, the embarked unit is within 6" of the DoM.
If a non-vehicle unit is within range, then Spirit Leech will affect them.
Yes but they are INSIDE a vehicle. And thus are unaffected. They are embarked and once they are embarked they are not on the table. Thus unaffectable with exceptions as mentioned in the faq that psykers inside may use psychic powers on themselves and they may fire out of the firing points.
Plese show me any line in the book that suggest that you can damage or affect units inside the transport in other ways.



That's right. You pay points to get speed, and protection from shooting. Nowhere in the rules does it say "the embarked unit is invulnerable to outside influence", so to turn the burden of proof back on you, where does it say this? Where does it say, in black and white, that embarked units are protected from anything?
Actually that's my entire point. With the exception of the faq that says that psychic powers cannot affect units in transports there's nothing to suggest that transports protect from anything but direct fire as you cannot draw line of sight to them (technically then you could also shoot them directly with weapons that does not require line of sight)

There's no actually mentioning of the transports protecting from anything more than the fact that the models(and/or units) are not there anymore because they are inside the vehicle. So either all aoe effects will hit units inside vehicles, and also things which require no line of sight OR nothing will. The Doom being no exception.

Please give me actual rules to suggest otherwise.

[sorienor]

The last 2 posts pretty much summed up the arguments and I can clearly understand where everyone is coming from.

Here is the one and only place I see where the pro-SL side fails, which Felland pointed out quite nicely.

Just being able to measure to the embarked unit is not enough, as you must also have *specific* permission to effect the embarked unit.

Spirit leech does not provide such specific permission (unlike Parasite of Mortrex) and therefore may not effect embarked units.

The rule on pg66 shows you how to measure the embarked unit, but no where does it give permission to effect the embarked unit. Those 2 are very distinct and different ideas.

When you can effect the embarked units, other rules/codices/faqs provide the permissions to effect the embarked unit in those very specific situations.

[HsojVvad]

The last 2 posts pretty much summed up the arguments and I can clearly understand where everyone is coming from.

Here is the one and only place I see where the pro-SL side fails, which Felland pointed out quite nicely.

Just being able to measure to the embarked unit is not enough, as you must also have *specific* permission to effect the embarked unit.

Spirit leech does not provide such specific permission (unlike Parasite of Mortrex) and therefore may not effect embarked units.

The rule on pg66 shows you how to measure the embarked unit, but no where does it give permission to effect the embarked unit. Those 2 are very distinct and different ideas.

When you can effect the embarked units, other rules/codices/faqs provide the permissions to effect the embarked unit in those very specific situations.

This question has been asked many times. Where does it say that units embarked in a vehicle are immune to anything?

So lets side step the Doom's SL debate a bit, and tell me first, why can't I shoot say a squad of Space Marines embarked inside a vehicle. Since you say I have to be given permission to do something, I can't do it if it's not stated. Ok I understand this. I do have permission to target an enemy and if it's in range I can attempt to wound it. So, since I have been given permssion to target an enemy, I choose to target the unit that is embarked in a vehicle. Nowhere in the BRB says I can't do this. No where does it say that I may not target anyone inside that is embarked in a vehicle. So what is stopping me from shooting at units in a vehicle?

So what is it? After this is answered we can continue on with the debate.

[sorienor]

Where does it say that units embarked in a vehicle are immune to anything?

It does not have to. Permissive rule set, remember.


So what is stopping me from shooting at units in a vehicle?

Pg 2, to measure the distance to a unit you measure to the closest model. There are no models on the table, therefore you have no way to measure to the model. For shooting specifically, you do NOT measure to the "unit" but models, so the rule on pg66 does not apply. thus you have no way to target the unit. This is why both SMS and impaler cannons also can't hit embarked units..because you must still measure distance to a model LoS or not.

[Melissia]

It's also why hitting an Ork transport with a basilisk when the line of sight is blocked doesn't kill all of the passengers. You may have hit them and by all technicality and fluff you should have killed most if not all of the ork squad given that it's an open topped transport, but the rules protect them because they aren't on the table at the time. You don't have to target an enemy to effect them with the Earthshaker round, you just have to have them in its area of effect after scatter dice. You do have to target SOMETHING, yes, but that doesn't entirely matter once the scatter dice are rolled and the template is placed-- all units touched by that template are affected.

The thing is, transported units are not on the table and therefor it has no effect on them. The same rule concept applies here, too.

[gcsmith]

permissive rules set, ive already sed the Parasite can affect, but he is not given such permission, just told what to do when he does.

[Mortifis]

You do have to target SOMETHING, yes, but that doesn't entirely matter once the scatter dice are rolled and the template is placed-- all units touched by that template are affected.

The thing is, transported units are not on the table and therefor it has no effect on them. The same rule concept applies here, too.

Yes Melissia, that's the whole point, but you're still getting it slightly wrong.

For shooting weapons, blast markers, nearby vehicles exploding, whatever: you need to measure to individual MODELS. You don't measure to the unit. Because embarked units have no models on the table, any type of shooting will never be able to affect them.

But what happens when, for example, we don't need to measure to a model? All we need to know is that the UNIT is within range. And p66 gives us quite clear rules on how to determine whether something is in range or not, if it happens to be embarked in a transport. You measure to the hull of the transport vehicle to determine the location of the UNIT inside of it.

Doom of Malan'tai, at least in regards to Spirit Leech, is a completely different concept all together. It doesn't use bullets, laser beams, or any other tangible means to directly attack people. Otherwise it couldn't affect people on the other side of a wall.

Comparing it with the Parasite of Mortrex, if you actually read the Codex entry, is also enlightening. Nowhere does the Parasite's ability give specific permission to affect "embarked" units. It doesn't need to. It tells you what type of units, and when, it will affect them. It remarks on what is different WHEN it affects embarked units.

Spirit Leech is exactly the same. It doesn't need to specifically say "yes, even if they are embarked".

Spirit Leech has permission to affect any infantry UNITS, because they are a non-vehicle unit.

Page 66, transports, tells us exactly how to determine the location of the UNIT, even though it has no models on the table. The unit is INSIDE the transport vehicle. It shoots from inside the transport vehicle, it can score from inside the transport vehicle. Now unless you somehow think they are not actually inside the transport vehicle, and can produce rules in evidence, this point is solid.

Having been granted permission by the Codex rule, and knowing that an enemy UNIT is in range, exactly what is stopping the ability from working?


If you play by your ruling that Spirit Leech somehow can't affect embarked units, that's fantastic. If I were to play by the same house rules, I'd also point out that it would mean your Psychic Hood can't affect my Librarian when I have him embarked inside a Rhino. It uses the exact same concept, and yet people have never questioned it until "OMG my people can die? That's broken!"

[sorienor]

Comparing it with the Parasite of Mortrex, if you actually read the Codex entry, is also enlightening. Nowhere does the Parasite's ability give specific permission to affect "embarked" units. It doesn't need to. It tells you what type of units, and when, it will affect them. It remarks on what is different WHEN it affects embarked units.

Wow that has to be one of the most dishonest and intellectually vacuous reading of text I've seen on any rules debate.

[HsojVvad]

It does not have to. Permissive rule set, remember.



Pg 2, to measure the distance to a unit you measure to the closest model. There are no models on the table, therefore you have no way to measure to the model. For shooting specifically, you do NOT measure to the "unit" but models, so the rule on pg66 does not apply. thus you have no way to target the unit. This is why both SMS and impaler cannons also can't hit embarked units..because you must still measure distance to a model LoS or not.

Sorry I forgot about what the Permissive rule set is. But onto your second point, Spirit Leech dosn't effect models, but units. Yes the models are not on the board, but the unit is on the board. Or am I missing something here again? :p

[Madness]

The models aren't on the board, and the unit is neither, but you have a rule that allows you to measure by the means of a proxy (vehicle hull).

Melissia, the Open Topped vehicle thing is "solved" by making vehicles more vulnerable to template weapons. Yet template usage still require LoS, which is denied by transport rules.

Doom of Malan'tai, Impaler Cannon, Smart Missile System are all effects that use range as a method of targeting while ignoring the LoS rules and can therefore, on a really close-minded RAW interpretation, hit transported units.

[Fellend]

See the only reason as to why there's UNIT instead of model is because of the damage effect. it's enough to target a single model to get to deal damage to the entire squad. Because lets face it if it we replaced the Unit with model in the description it would deal x amount of wounds to each model.

You are focusing so much on the word Unit that you are ignoring all logic, all existing rules, all previously played games, the very existance of transports and it's uses just because you desperately want it to damage things in transports.

Yes as long as it touches any unit it deals damage to it. But if it's a vehicle it does not. A transport is a vehicle, and the units are EMBARKED this inside and protected by the vehicle. There are no units, no models, no squads to hit only a big metal box which is immune.

So unless you can find any support in the rules which allows it to bypass transport protection without also making blast and templates bypassing it there's not really anything to discuss.
This is just a silly abuse of the word unit because the mechanics of dealing damage to the entire squad instead of the models.

[Madness]

Blasts and Templates require Line of Sight.

[HsojVvad]

The models aren't on the board, and the unit is neither, but you have a rule that allows you to measure by the means of a proxy (vehicle hull).

Melissia, the Open Topped vehicle thing is "solved" by making vehicles more vulnerable to template weapons. Yet template usage still require LoS, which is denied by transport rules.

Doom of Malan'tai, Impaler Cannon, Smart Missile System are all effects that use range as a method of targeting while ignoring the LoS rules and can therefore, on a really close-minded RAW interpretation, hit transported units.

Just to add something, since the Impaler Cannon is a shooting attack, it can't be used on units or models embarked on a vehicle correct? I thought someone said to use a Smart Missle System, it needs marker lights or something like that, wich does target units so therefore SMS can't be used on embarked units.

Am I getting this correct now?

[Fellend]

Blasts and Templates require Line of Sight.

To actually place them yes. But not if they scatter or you shoot at say, teh target next to the rhino

[Madness]

I said that thing about the SMS, and got it wrong, I was looking at a different weapon. Shooting attacks are not Psychich Powers either, so the only reason they wouldn't be able to shoot an embarked model is due to the lack of an available Line of Sight.

Template and blast effects (like, scattering shots that end up deviating onto transports) require you to see the models under the template, since there's no model visible (and you're not measuring since there's nothing to measure) you can't hit the embarked troops.

Fellend: I replied in this post, yes, the template/blast might eventually end up on the transport, but read page 29/30 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Wish they would FAQ that into "no shooting attack can hit embarked units unless it explicitly averts this rule".

[Fellend]

Just to add something, since the Impaler Cannon is a shooting attack, it can't be used on units or models embarked on a vehicle correct? I thought someone said to use a Smart Missle System, it needs marker lights or something like that, wich does target units so therefore SMS can't be used on embarked units.

Am I getting this correct now?

Nope because according to the Doom theory the unit is still there you just can't see it so thus you can still target the unit if you have a weapon that requires no line of sight.

[Fellend]

I said that thing about the SMS, and got it wrong, I was looking at a different weapon. Shooting attacks are not Psychich Powers either, so the only reason they wouldn't be able to shoot an embarked model is due to the lack of an available Line of Sight.

Template and blast effects (like, scattering shots that end up deviating onto transports) require you to see the models under the template, since there's no model visible (and you're not measuring since there's nothing to measure) you can't hit the embarked troops.

Fellend: I replied in this post, yes, the template/blast might eventually end up on the transport, but read page 29/30 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Wish they would FAQ that into "no shooting attack can hit embarked units unless it explicitly averts this rule".

I've read it over and over. I can't find anything that says that you must see the targets under the template. Just that initial target must be seen. But the inital target is the rhino (or someone standing next to it) and all models underneath are hit. And since the models are there they would be hit.

infact it even mentions specifically that it might be scattered out of LOS

[Madness]

Once the final position of the blast has been determined, take a good look [...]That paragraph for instance.

[Fellend]

That paragraph for instance.

It helps if you take everything into account and doesn't just cut it of mid sentence.
Once the final position of the blast has been determined, take a good look at the blast marker from above - all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker is hit (as shown by the diagram)

So not only are we supposed to look at the BLAST MARKER but it says that all models whose bases are even partially covered. And since we know that he unit is inside, and thus all models are inside, their range = the hull as long as you touch the hull you are hitting everyone.

[Mortifis]

Blasts and Templates require Line of Sight.

Yes and no. Blasts usually require line of sight to the initial target. In any even, once the blast or template has been placed, you count the number of MODELS under the blast/template and use that as your starting point.

The reason you cannot shoot an embarked unit is because there are no MODELS on the table. The only physcial model is the transport. But we know, for all rules purposes, that the unit is INSIDE the transport.


The models aren't on the board, and the unit is neither, but you have a rule that allows you to measure by the means of a proxy (vehicle hull).

Melissia, the Open Topped vehicle thing is "solved" by making vehicles more vulnerable to template weapons. Yet template usage still require LoS, which is denied by transport rules.

Doom of Malan'tai, Impaler Cannon, Smart Missile System are all effects that use range as a method of targeting while ignoring the LoS rules and can therefore, on a really close-minded RAW interpretation, hit transported units.

Again, no. Impaler Cannons and SMS both require models to be on the table, and measured within range. They just happen to ignore the normal line of sight requirements. No physical model present = no shooting.

Again, just to remind people, Spirit Leech is not a gun. It doesn't shoot, nor use the rules for shooting in any way.


See the only reason as to why there's UNIT instead of model is because of the damage effect. it's enough to target a single model to get to deal damage to the entire squad. Because lets face it if it we replaced the Unit with model in the description it would deal x amount of wounds to each model.
Show me where Spirit Leech uses the word "target" for a start. And if you wanted to do it on a per model basis, then you'd need to test for each model seperately, which would be rediculous of course.


You are focusing so much on the word Unit that you are ignoring all logic, all existing rules, all previously played games, the very existance of transports and it's uses just because you desperately want it to damage things in transports.
Previously played games support me here - a Librarian on foot is within 24" of an Ork psyker on a Trukk. The Ork tries to cast a psychic power, and the Marine's Psychic Hood may attempt to stop him. Same concept.

I'm not ignoring any rules, I'm using logic. If the rule said "units with a model within X" like the Hive Tyrant's psychic powers, then clearly it wouldn't work. But no. It clearly says "units within X", which is different.


Yes as long as it touches any unit it deals damage to it. But if it's a vehicle it does not. A transport is a vehicle, and the units are EMBARKED this inside and protected by the vehicle. There are no units, no models, no squads to hit only a big metal box which is immune.
Again, it doesn't "touch" the unit. It doesn't fondle, caress, grip, hit, attack, shoot or in any other way use any other word you want to thow out there.

A transport is a vehicle. True.
Embarked units are inside the vehicle. True. At least you agree with me on this now.
Protected by the vehicle. Only in some respects.

Just because the models are not present, doesn't stop the unit from being inside the vehicle. We already know that. If they are inside the vehicle, they are in play, and can affect and be affected by abilities that say they can. See logic in action? I'm using it.


So unless you can find any support in the rules which allows it to bypass transport protection without also making blast and templates bypassing it there's not really anything to discuss.
Find me your rules that supposedly grant blanket protection to the unit. I've already shown you why blasts and templates don't work. They are completely unrelated to the issue at hand.


This is just a silly abuse of the word unit because the mechanics of dealing damage to the entire squad instead of the models.
Wow that has to be one of the most dishonest and intellectually vacuous reading of text I've seen on any rules debate.
Now its my turn to be upset by this. Nothing I am doing here is dishonest. How is using the rules dishonest?

All I've done is use logic to show how the rules work. If you stop, read the rules from the start, and apply them consistantly, it works exactly the way I've shown it works.

On the other hand, people making personal attacks against me, derailing threads with rediculous irrelevancies, and whinging about the supposed "broken-ness" of a power with only a six inch range aren't using logic at all.

Knee-jerk, emotional reaction because your pretty toy soldiers can be affected in a way you never thought of before are not based on fact. Just because it was rare, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Its rare for someone to win the Lotto, but it does happen. Its rare for units inside vehicles to be affected by things, but there are examples all the way through the rules.

If someone wants to throw a tantrum about how their battle-dollies are superior just because they have a nice shiny car to ride around in, that's not my problem. If people want to make their own rules that suit them and their playgroup, that's cool, because that solves their problems nicely. If the only thing you want to go by is the rules printed in the book, then either you agree with me, or you are using a book that isn't the same as the one in front of me.

[Madness]

There's no model of the transported unit, we are able to target the transported unit with those abilities that ask us to measure thanks to page 66. When a blast is placed there's no measuring involved, just a vertical case of Line of Sight, denied by the lack of models on the table.

It doesn't matter (for RAW interpretation) that the unit is inside, the unit is in the "embarked" status, it means that you're not able to see any of its models, nor measure any model by any other means than the page 66 proxy delegation rule.

The blast is not a range, it's not a measure, it's an "optical" system, that requires you to see models under it, no models = no hit.

[HsojVvad]

Yes and no. Blasts usually require line of sight to the initial target. In any even, once the blast or template has been placed, you count the number of MODELS under the blast/template and use that as your starting point.

The reason you cannot shoot an embarked unit is because there are no MODELS on the table. The only physcial model is the transport. But we know, for all rules purposes, that the unit is INSIDE the transport.



Again, no. Impaler Cannons and SMS both require models to be on the table, and measured within range. They just happen to ignore the normal line of sight requirements. No physical model present = no shooting.

Again, just to remind people, Spirit Leech is not a gun. It doesn't shoot, nor use the rules for shooting in any way.


Show me where Spirit Leech uses the word "target" for a start. And if you wanted to do it on a per model basis, then you'd need to test for each model seperately, which would be rediculous of course.


Previously played games support me here - a Librarian on foot is within 24" of an Ork psyker on a Trukk. The Ork tries to cast a psychic power, and the Marine's Psychic Hood may attempt to stop him. Same concept.

I'm not ignoring any rules, I'm using logic. If the rule said "units with a model within X" like the Hive Tyrant's psychic powers, then clearly it wouldn't work. But no. It clearly says "units within X", which is different.


Again, it doesn't "touch" the unit. It doesn't fondle, caress, grip, hit, attack, shoot or in any other way use any other word you want to thow out there.

A transport is a vehicle. True.
Embarked units are inside the vehicle. True. At least you agree with me on this now.
Protected by the vehicle. Only in some respects.

Just because the models are not present, doesn't stop the unit from being inside the vehicle. We already know that. If they are inside the vehicle, they are in play, and can affect and be affected by abilities that say they can. See logic in action? I'm using it.


Find me your rules that supposedly grant blanket protection to the unit. I've already shown you why blasts and templates don't work. They are completely unrelated to the issue at hand.


Now its my turn to be upset by this. Nothing I am doing here is dishonest. How is using the rules dishonest?

All I've done is use logic to show how the rules work. If you stop, read the rules from the start, and apply them consistantly, it works exactly the way I've shown it works.

On the other hand, people making personal attacks against me, derailing threads with rediculous irrelevancies, and whinging about the supposed "broken-ness" of a power with only a six inch range aren't using logic at all.

Knee-jerk, emotional reaction because your pretty toy soldiers can be affected in a way you never thought of before are not based on fact. Just because it was rare, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Its rare for someone to win the Lotto, but it does happen. Its rare for units inside vehicles to be affected by things, but there are examples all the way through the rules.

If someone wants to throw a tantrum about how their battle-dollies are superior just because they have a nice shiny car to ride around in, that's not my problem. If people want to make their own rules that suit them and their playgroup, that's cool, because that solves their problems nicely. If the only thing you want to go by is the rules printed in the book, then either you agree with me, or you are using a book that isn't the same as the one in front of me.

Very well said, I applaud you for your patience it took to write tihs in a very logical, gentlemanly manner. I finally see the difference between model and unit and now fully understand why the difference between model and unit. It took me a while but I get it now. Thank you so much.

[Madness]

The model/unit conundrum is largely speculative and irrelevant. A unit is a set of 1+ models (when the last model is killed, guess what happens to the unit?), even if tDoMSL worked on models and not units the rule at page 66 would still apply ironically making all the embarked models being hit if the vehicle was even only partially inside the 6" range.

Every enemy non-vehicle unit that's not dead must be tried against the 6" distance, those who are outside are immune, when times comes to measure toward the enemy non-vehicle embarked units (since they are not dead) page 66 tells us to use the transport hull as position for the unit.

[Mortifis]

The model/unit conundrum is largely speculative and irrelevant. A unit is a set of 1+ models (when the last model is killed, guess what happens to the unit?), even if tDoMSL worked on models and not units the rule at page 66 would still apply ironically making all the embarked models being hit if the vehicle was even only partially inside the 6" range.

The only thing that IS relevant is the difference between models and units. Abilities that specifically require models within range will never be able to affect embarked units.

Any ability that uses the term unit, and a measurement, will.

If Spirit Leech said "units with a model within X", it wouldn't work. It doesn't say that. It says "units within X", so it does work.


Every enemy non-vehicle unit that's not dead must be tried against the 6" distance, those who are outside are immune, when times comes to measure toward the enemy non-vehicle embarked units (since they are not dead) page 66 tells us to use the transport hull as position for the unit.

Exactly. The position of the unit. But remember, any ability that requires a model will only see the physical model of the transport vehicle. Because the only thing the rules tell us is the position of the embarked unit, not where their models are.

[Madness]

The position of the unit is the same as the position of its models, the definition of unit is a set of 1+ models, the only functional differences from model and units is that measuring the distance from units is (usually) done via the closest model, while every model counts for himself, and effects that affect a unit, effect all its models, while the contrary isn't true.

This is derived from page 3

we represent this by grouping models together into units unit = set of models

I know that page 66 only mentions units, but to measure units is the same as measuring models. Read on.

Suppose you had to measure the range of an ability owned by a MODEL that's not also a UNIT(IE, a model that's only a PART of its unit) from inside a vehicle (Psychic Hood, Cold Steel and Courage), you'd still use the vehicle hull, wouldn't you?

So why does it work from the inside out and not from the outside in?

[Bean]

It's fair to say that every time someone measures to or from a single embarked model to something outside the transport using the transport's hull as a reference, that person is cheating.

Psychic hoods and other abilities which require measuring to or from embarked models don't actually work from inside transports unless the model in the transport is the only model in its unit--the one case in which a model and a unit are exactly the same thing.

[Mortifis]

It's fair to say that every time someone measures to or from a single embarked model to something outside the transport using the transport's hull as a reference, that person is cheating.

Psychic hoods and other abilities which require measuring to or from embarked models don't actually work from inside transports unless the model in the transport is the only model in its unit--the one case in which a model and a unit are exactly the same thing.

So you're saying you can't fire weapons from firepoints or use psychic powers from inside a vehicle? That would be cheating by your definition. No plasma drive-bys, hooray!

How is a Librarian in a Rhino any different from a Librarian and a Tactical Squad inside a Rhino for the purposes of him casting psychic powers, and/or getting nullified by another Librarian's Psychic Hood?

Unless you've finally understood the difference between "model" and "unit". In which case yes, anything that measures to a model would fail, whereas anything with a blanket area of effect for units, psykers, or abilities would still work.

[Madness]

That's a very strict interpretation of the rule.
Case in point, can a unit within 12" of Straken get Counter-attack/Furious charge?

If Straken is with other survivors of his unit outside a transport, yes.
If Straken is the only survivor of his unit outside a transport, yes.
If Straken is the only survivor of his unit inside a transport, yes.
If Straken is with other survivors of his unit inside a transport, no.

That would mean that an ability is owned by a unit if there's no other models in the unit that have the ability, or by a model if the rest of the unit doesn't have it?

It's not very convincing.

Also you're always measuring from Straken, which is NEVER a unit, even if he's the only survivor, the unit is still a Company Command Squad, and you're not measuring from the Company Command Squad, but from Straken.

[Bean]

So you're saying you can't fire weapons from firepoints or use psychic powers from inside a vehicle? That would be cheating by your definition. No plasma drive-bys, hooray!

How is a Librarian in a Rhino any different from a Librarian and a Tactical Squad inside a Rhino for the purposes of him casting psychic powers, and/or getting nullified by another Librarian's Psychic Hood?

Unless you've finally understood the difference between "model" and "unit". In which case yes, anything that measures to a model would fail, whereas anything with a blanket area of effect for units, psykers, or abilities would still work.

Firing from transports has its own, different, and entirely separate set of rules which is not relevant at all to this discussion. Your assertion that my position would disallow firing from fire points is simply incorrect.

As for psychic powers, it depends. If the psychic power is a shooting attack, it uses the rules for firing from vehicles. If the Psycher is alone, then it is identical to its unit, and can use the rule on page 66 to measure from the hull of its vehicle. The same goes for the Psychic hood.

I've understood the difference between a model and a unit throughout this entire discussion--and all of the preceding discussions, as well. The rule on page 66 allows you to measure to or from an embarked unit. It does not allow you to measure to or from any specific embarked model.

If one of the models in an embarked unit has an ability that affects everything within a certain range, then that model is out of luck (with regards to that ability) while its unit is embarked. Nothing in the rules allows you to measure from that particular model to anything outside the transport.

Spirit Leech does work on embarked units. A Psychic Hood on an embarked Librarian which is part of a larger unit does not work on the Doom, regardless of how close the Doom is to the transport.

I realize most people don't play it this way, because they fail to make that distinction between models in units with regards to the rule on page 66, but those are the rules. They are perfectly clear and unambiguous. Your failure to like the conclusion will not change them.



That's a very strict interpretation of the rule.


Yes. But it is accurate.



Case in point, can a unit within 12" of Straken get Counter-attack/Furious charge?

If Straken is with other survivors of his unit outside a transport, yes.
If Straken is the only survivor of his unit outside a transport, yes.
If Straken is the only survivor of his unit inside a transport, yes.
If Straken is with other survivors of his unit inside a transport, no.


Looks like you've summed it up well.



That would mean that an ability is owned by a unit if there's no other models in the unit that have the ability, or by a model if the rest of the unit doesn't have it?


I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here, but what you've actually said is not accurate.



It's not very convincing.


If you're looking at the consequences of a rule to convince you about what the rule actually is, you're pretty clearly going about it the wrong way.

I don't like the consequences, either, but neither your failure to like the consequences, nor my failure to like the consequences, nor Mortifis's failure to like the consequences above will actually alter what the rules actually say.

Now, you can always play by a different set of rules, if you want--I certainly do--but that won't change what the rules actually say, either.



Also you're always measuring from Straken, which is NEVER a unit, even if he's the only survivor, the unit is still a Company Command Squad, and you're not measuring from the Company Command Squad, but from Straken.


An interesting point. Again, I think I would contend that Straken becomes a unit of Straken when he is alone--and that any model becomes a unit of itself when it is alone. Essentially, the rules tell us that a unit is one of two things: a group of models or a single model. A model on its own--even if it was, at one point, part of a group--is obviously the second type of unit, and for units of that second type, I contend that the unit and the model are actually identical and interchangeable. I would further contend that, for a unit of the second type, measuring from the unit and measuring from the model are exactly the same thing, and that page 66 would effectively allow you to measure to or from a model, if the model was part of a unit of that type.

Of course, regardless of whether I'm right about that or not, the fact remains that neither the rule on page 66 nor any other rule anywhere in the book actually allows you to measure to or from a particular embarked model which is part of a larger unit, and that means that Straken's ability doesn't actually work while he is embarked and his command squad is alive. It's a shame, but there's really no cogent argument to the contrary.

[Madness]

The only definition of a unit is the one from page 3, a unit is a group of at least one models (a group of 1 is perfectly acceptable, as it is a group of 0, but page 3 specifies 1+), a model is always a model even if it's inside a unit, the fact that the unit is made of only one model doesn't change anything about the unit.

Nowhere it says that there are 2 types of units. (well yeah, there are several type of units, but not based on cardinality)

So basically Straken will never be able to use his ability since you always have to measure from Straken and never from the Company Command Squad, regardless of it being made up only by Straken or by Straken & Friends.

If I accept that page 66 only works on units and never on models everything is to be reanalyzed. Take Psychic Hood, it says "an enemy within 24" of the Librarian" does that mean an enemy model? An enemy unit? From the Librarian model? From the Librarian unit? Would it really make such a difference if the Librarian was an upgrade option like the (non Lord) commissar in IG squads?

Page 66 mentions "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit", which makes me ask myself "Is the radius of Cold Steel and Courage a range involving the embarked unit?" and I can only logically answer "yes" even if it only involves a part of the unit, be it one sixths of the unit or a 100% of the unit.

[Fellend]

Originally Posted by Fellend View Post
See the only reason as to why there's UNIT instead of model is because of the damage effect. it's enough to target a single model to get to deal damage to the entire squad. Because lets face it if it we replaced the Unit with model in the description it would deal x amount of wounds to each model.
Show me where Spirit Leech uses the word "target" for a start. And if you wanted to do it on a per model basis, then you'd need to test for each model seperately, which would be rediculous of course.

See you are once again just cleverly misunderstanding the english language.
The very definition it targets something infact it targets all models within range. There's no such thing as a not targetable effect because then it wouldn't effect anything.

And my entire point is that it's ridiciulous to target every seperate model. Why? Because the leech damage entire units and the unit owner then get to divide the wounds among the unit in question. Otherwise they would have to completely redo the power saying that everyone within 6" recieves a single wound on a failed morale test.
The word unit is chosen because of the the way the damage is dispearsed.

Once again. Things can affect outwards of the transport due to firing points. Whether they can affect things when the transport has no firing points I'll leave unsaid because that's an entirely different debate.


The only thing that IS relevant is the difference between models and units. Abilities that specifically require models within range will never be able to affect embarked units.
Any ability that uses the term unit, and a measurement, will.
If Spirit Leech said "units with a model within X", it wouldn't work. It doesn't say that. It says "units within X", so it does work.

Of course it wouldn't say units with a model within X. it's redundant. if there is a unit there is a model. Because as madness pointed out a Unit = a bunch of models that have to stick together.
Read page 3 of the Core rulebook.
There's no magical difference that let's you target units but not models. If you are targeting a model you are still targeting the unit only a specific part of the unit and if you are targeting a unit you are still targeting a model just not a specific one.
And yes Doom doesn't mention any targeting, replace with the word effect, touch or any other word you feel is appropriate. It does hit everything within it's range. thus it targets everything in it's range. It needs not to be written because the english language have already told us this much.




The only thing that IS relevant is the difference between models and units. Abilities that specifically require models within range will never be able to affect embarked units.

Yes that's your only point. Which does not exist as pointed out by page 3 in the rulebook and also later in the unit coherancy rules and infact throughout the book if your read it closely. So not only is your only argument invalid. There are plenty of rules which directly contradict it showing us that most likely they would do so here as well.
Due to the vague nature of the "transport protection" rules we have to conclude that either the doom and any aoe effect damages the entire unit within the vehicle or none of it does.

SMS can infact hit any TARGET in range whether they are in los or not. Thus making it able to shoot through
transports to target units inside. according to this doom theory it can now target units inside transports.


Also let's look at Embarked. We can all agree that once they have entered they are embarked right?
Making them Passengers it does not actually say this so that's RAI not RAW but I assume that we undestand english. Now there's a whole section for what happends with Passengers when something hits the vehicle.

"Note remember that all members of a single unit fires simultaneously, so a squad cannot take down the transport with it's lascannon and then mow down the occupants with their bolters. However if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot may then assault the now disembarked passengers, if its allowed to assault according to the assault rules"
Hey I was wrong, it did mention passengers. Now this would suggest that you cannot effect the unit until the transport is destroyed.

Wait I can already hear it! "BUT WHAAAA! SoL is not a shooting attack" Yep the rule does not actually say that. Once the transport is destroyed by a ranged attack you may shoot and or assault the disembarked units.
You must DESTROY the transport to affect the units because they are EMBARKED.

And we shouldn't forget that the transport isn't just a transport it's also a vehicle. And a vehicle never takes morale checks due to the unshakable faith in it from it's crew (p63)

All in all I can find so many holes in your logic that it could be used as a swiss cheeze. All this is just a clever attempt to misunderstand the word UNIT. Which has been pointed out and directed to the appropriate page in the book. There is no magical difference between a unit and a model.

So unless you find some new evidence which is actually taken from the rulebook, please drop it. The doom and aoe effects can only effect the vehicle which is on the table. Not units inside, unless of course all of it does. But if you want to argue that blasts, templates and SMS damages units inside the transports you can have fun doing that on your own.

in the end I don't play against you. And in case I ever encounter the Doom I'm more than prepared to show the player how wrong he is using the core rulebook.

[Madness]

Fellend, blast and templates don't involve measurement, and therefore can't rely on the p.66 rule, instead they require you to look what models are under the template/blast, and there's no model there. Not being able to see models under the template and being unable to use the page 66 rule, means that embarked units are immune to the template.

Suppose the Spirit Leech rule said "place the large blast template on the Doom of Malan'tai, every non-vehicle enemy unit (or model? Who cares) completely or partially covered by the blast marker ...", in that case the embarked units would have been safe.

Isn't RAW wonderful?

[Fellend]

I've understood the difference between a model and a unit throughout this entire discussion--and all of the preceding discussions, as well. The rule on page 66 allows you to measure to or from an embarked unit. It does not allow you to measure to or from any specific embarked model.

If one of the models in an embarked unit has an ability that affects everything within a certain range, then that model is out of luck (with regards to that ability) while its unit is embarked. Nothing in the rules allows you to measure from that particular model to anything outside the transport.

Spirit Leech does work on embarked units. A Psychic Hood on an embarked Librarian which is part of a larger unit does not work on the Doom, regardless of how close the Doom is to the transport.


Please explain to me how you managed to read page 66 so that influences outside can effect units inside but no the otherway around... Because I really don't see it...
Also on page 67 it says that he joins the unit just as he would normally. Thus becoming part of the unit and according to your logic the unit is measured to and from the hull of the vehicle.

[Fellend]

Fellend, blast and templates don't involve measurement, and therefore can't rely on the p.66 rule, instead they require you to look what models are under the template/blast, and there's no model there. Not being able to see models under the template and being unable to use the page 66 rule, means that embarked units are immune to the template.

Suppose the Spirit Leech rule said "place the large blast template on the Doom of Malan'tai, every non-vehicle enemy unit (or model? Who cares) completely or partially covered by the blast marker ...", in that case the embarked units would have been safe.

Isn't RAW wonderful?


Yes but according to this it says that the unit is inside the vehicle basically anywhere the hull is. Thus it touches the unit (= +1 models.)

"It can hit UNITS out of range or out of sight"

"So that it covers as many models as possible in the target unit" so we know it targets units
and the units area is anywhere on the hull. Thus the entire unit would be hit if you as much as touch it. Because the models are apparently on the table. just replaced by the transport. The wounds doesn't even have to be allocated by the hit models but can be allocated on the entire unit.

[Madness]

It's a paradox, and I know it, but no, the embarked unit is not where the vehicle is, it's in a limbo that can only be reached if you need to measure something involving it.

Page 66 does mention units only, but most ability are ambiguous about their unit/model origin (or target even) so when time comes to answer questions like "Is the radius of Cold Steel and Courage a range involving the embarked unit?" I can only logically answer "yes".

[Bean]

The only definition of a unit is the one from page 3, a unit is a group of at least one models (a group of 1 is perfectly acceptable, as it is a group of 0, but page 3 specifies 1+), a model is always a model even if it's inside a unit, the fact that the unit is made of only one model doesn't change anything about the unit.

Nowhere it says that there are 2 types of units. (well yeah, there are several type of units, but not based on cardinality)

Not that it really matters much, but this really isn't true at all. The rule from page 3 is, and I quote:


A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,

This clearly defines two separate and distinct types of units--the type that is a group of models and the type that is a single model.



So basically Straken will never be able to use his ability since you always have to measure from Straken and never from the Company Command Squad, regardless of it being made up only by Straken or by Straken & Friends.


I see what you're saying. I still think there isn't anything in the rules which actually supports that conclusion. As I point out above, the rules really do define two separate types of units, one of which is the single model unit.



If I accept that page 66 only works on units and never on models everything is to be reanalyzed. Take Psychic Hood, it says "an enemy within 24" of the Librarian" does that mean an enemy model? An enemy unit? From the Librarian model? From the Librarian unit? Would it really make such a difference if the Librarian was an upgrade option like the (non Lord) commissar in IG squads?


Again, failure to like the consequences of a rule doesn't actually change what the rule says.



Page 66 mentions "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit", which makes me ask myself "Is the radius of Cold Steel and Courage a range involving the embarked unit?" and I can only logically answer "yes" even if it only involves a part of the unit, be it one sixths of the unit or a 100% of the unit.

This is actually a fairly good point. I'll mull it over.

[HsojVvad]

Something I would like to comment on about targeting. Someone said that SL targets and hits everything in it's radius. SL dosn't target anything. The way I see it, for humans to live, we have to breathe air. So does the air target us? No it dosn't. We are in it, so therefore we can breathe it. What if you are in a house that is on fire? Does the smoke target you so you can't breather? No it dosn't, it's just there, you are in it's radius so therefore you can't breathe.

Just like the Venomthropes special power Spore Cloud. It dosn't target anyone it, it is just there. Same as SL. It dosn't target anyone, it's just there, like a psychic hood. It dosn't target anyone, it just nullifies a psychic power.

So I think using the word "targets" is wrong. It dosn't target anything, it's just there. To be saying target means that you can avoid it. Can psychic hoods be avoided if within it's range? No. Can Spore Cloud be avoided if within range? No.

If you are hiding behind a Rihno can anyone shoot you? Can you be hit with bolters? No you cannot because you are hiding from being targeted.

If you are within range of a psychic hood or spore cloud and hiding behind a Rihno can it be avoided no? Why because it dosn't target you, just effects you. Hope I made some sense here.

[Fellend]

A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,
This clearly defines two separate and distinct types of units--the type that is a group of models and the type that is a single model.

I wouldn't say it clearly defines two sperate and distinct types of units. The units can ALSO be a single very large or powerful model. This is futher muddied by the independant character rule where a powerful model joins the and become part of the unit. (And possibly further where he embarks upon a transport and joins and/or becomes part of the transport)

[Fellend]

Something I would like to comment on about targeting. Someone said that SL targets and hits everything in it's radius. SL dosn't target anything. The way I see it, for humans to live, we have to breathe air. So does the air target us? No it dosn't. We are in it, so therefore we can breathe it. What if you are in a house that is on fire? Does the smoke target you so you can't breather? No it dosn't, it's just there, you are in it's radius so therefore you can't breathe.

Just like the Venomthropes special power Spore Cloud. It dosn't target anyone it, it is just there. Same as SL. It dosn't target anyone, it's just there, like a psychic hood. It dosn't target anyone, it just nullifies a psychic power.

So I think using the word "targets" is wrong. It dosn't target anything, it's just there. To be saying target means that you can avoid it. Can psychic hoods be avoided if within it's range? No. Can Spore Cloud be avoided if within range? No.

If you are hiding behind a Rihno can anyone shoot you? Can you be hit with bolters? No you cannot because you are hiding from being targeted.

If you are within range of a psychic hood or spore cloud and hiding behind a Rihno can it be avoided no? Why because it dosn't target you, just effects you. Hope I made some sense here.


What kind of failed logic is that? Technically we target the air and draw it in, same with the smoke. And assume this was a computer game how would you write the command? If target is within range of 6 of doom/spore cloud then effect x comes into play. Tada you have been targeted. There's no such thing as a nontargetable effect because if it doesn't target anything it does not effect anything.


So I think using the word "targets" is wrong. It dosn't target anything, it's just there. To be saying target means that you can avoid it. Can psychic hoods be avoided if within it's range? No. Can Spore Cloud be avoided if within range? No.
You are thinking about this backwards the targeted area is all units within the range. Thus can you avoid it? YES don't be in the targeted area! Would spore cloud give embarked units coversaves? No (not that it's needed unless you actually go by the SMS/blast/template/doom hitting through the armor)

And before you point it out my argument remains the same the only targetable unit is the vehicle which is unaffected. Because otherwise we have to admit blasts, aoe effects, and sms to effect the embarked units.

[Mortifis]

People often have difficulty applying the rules of logic. For example, a person may say the following syllogism is valid, when in fact it is not:

1 - All birds have beaks.
2 - Octopuses have beaks.
3 - Therefore an octopus is a bird.

"That creature" may well be a bird, but the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Certain other animals may also have beaks. Errors of this type occur because people reverse a premise.[2] In this case, "All birds have beaks" is converted to "All beaked animals are birds." The reversed premise is plausible because few people are aware of any instances of beaked creature besides birds—but this premise is not the one that was given. In this way, the deductive fallacy is formed by points that may individually appear logical, but when placed together are shown to be incorrect.

I won't be making any further posts in any of these threads, because I have already given the proof, quoted the rules necessary, and used deductive logic to draw the final conclusion.

People arguing against the Spirit Leech are using so many logical fallacies its impossible to list them. And since no one listens when I point these mistakes out to them, there is no point in my following these threads any further.

Good day.

[HsojVvad]

I won't be making any further posts in any of these threads, because I have already given the proof, quoted the rules necessary, and used deductive logic to draw the final conclusion.

People arguing against the Spirit Leech are using so many logical fallacies its impossible to list them. And since no one listens when I point these mistakes out to them, there is no point in my following these threads any further.

Good day.

Not everyone, alot of us do listen to you. It is just either the other people DON'T want to change their stance for what ever reason, or simply still do not comprehend what you still mean for what ever reason.

Just don't think because of 2 or 3 people keep disagreing with you after you given great facts is all of us do it. Some people just refuse to acknowladge what you say, and not back up the facts to counter your arguement.

[Madness]

A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single very large or powerful model,
This clearly defines two separate and distinct types of units--the type that is a group of models and the type that is a single model.

I wouldn't say it clearly defines two sperate and distinct types of units. The units can ALSO be a single very large or powerful model. This is futher muddied by the independant character rule where a powerful model joins the and become part of the unit. (And possibly further where he embarks upon a transport and joins and/or becomes part of the transport)
Yep, nowhere it says that a mono-model unit is a different type of unit, it's yet another non-normative section explaining what a non-empty set is to people who isn't good at math. :P

That is precisely why I refuse to distinguish model/unit unless there's actually any use to it.