Got the Eldar Codex, first impressions

[Lost Vyper]

Hi ya´ll...

It is about noon here in Finland and i got my codex at 10 o´clock, when the store opened.

I´ve spent about an hour skimming it through and i´m excited and disappointed ATM...

Let´s go through the disappointing parts first, they are mostly not about the rules, but the codex itself.

1.) It seems, like half of the codex is a painting guide, which is fine for hardcore purists, who create awesome armies and want the color scheme to be precise. How ever, i´m not that kind of an Eldar -player, i have my own color scheme, so it seems, like i paid 20€ extra, for the stuff i don´t need. And the fluff again, is copy-pasted...
2.) Altough Formations are "the thing" ATM, for my, it seems most of them are beyond my reach with the models i currently have (unemployed, so no more models says the wife :) ). But few are achievable, and they seem awesome!
3.) Warlord traits...*sigh*...WHY.CAN´T.WE.GET.DECENT.ONE´S? For me, only the WL re-rolls saving throws of 1 seems good...
4.) Relics...Very situational, maybe the Shard if baby sitting some Dark Eldar Reavers and the new pistol, but mostly crap IMHO
5.) Holo-Fields now 5+ Invl. save UNLESS immobilized = no need to use these anymore...
6.) New Monofilament, me no like it

THE GOOD STUFF! I´m going to tell my it in my basic FOC perspective

1.) Rangers got their Shrouded back! YEAH!!!!
2.) Avatar boost for 12" increased, Furious charge and Rage too!
3.) Wraithknight...LOW...hmm...no insta gibbing, which helps me tremendously against GK...
4.) Vypers are CHEEEEEAAAAAP
5.) All the new Exarch stuff + 2W = freekin awesome!
6.) Swooping Hawks can do one attack on a flier/FMC = should have been on the last codex already...
7.) Phoenix Lords got BUFFED! Dear lord! Hard to choose HQ´s now :) I like the problem thou...
8.) Banshees got their BUFFFFFF...
9.) Jetbikes, of course
10.) Farseer´s can re-roll once in a Psychic phase DTW or PT...awe-so-me...plus Ghosthelm is the same...

I´m still happy, i don´t see anything OP here (unless you are a SPAM-SPIGGITY-SPAM-MAN/WOMAN), than the already complained things (WK=GC, Bikes etc...), but this could have been done with a 30€ codex too. There should be an option for a just the rules codex or this "lookey the pictures here boy!" -codex...

Now, let´s hope Army Builder updates within few months, don´t like the Excel armysheets :)

- Lost Vyper

[Mr Mystery]

Should really get up off my hot sexy buns and wander up the shop to nab my copy.

[Cleon]

Can I ask you what the minimum buy in in Jetbike/seerbike/Vyper models is to buy the core for the multi detachment formation? That will determine for me if I can be bothered with the Eldar or not (I don't want to spam them, but I don't want to buy the Vaul's wrath that in both other cores either).

[ShadowcatX]

Can I ask you what the minimum buy in in Jetbike/seerbike/Vyper models is to buy the core for the multi detachment formation? That will determine for me if I can be bothered with the Eldar or not (I don't want to spam them, but I don't want to buy the Vaul's wrath that in both other cores either).

9 jetbikes, a farseer, a warlock, and a vyper. Honestly though CAD is better.

[Cleon]

9 jetbikes, a farseer, a warlock, and a vyper. Honestly though CAD is better.
Thanks, I've already got the guts of an Eldar army that's been hanging around from 2nd Ed with a few extras picked up ad hoc since (a mass of Dire avengers mostly). As it's my 4th 40k force I want to keep it on a leash and stop it sprawling into an expensive mess, the pick and drop formation boxes seem quite fun for that with the formation of '3 aspect squads, ignore chart restrictions'.

[Charon]

9 jetbikes, a farseer, a warlock, and a vyper. Honestly though CAD is better.

Not too sure... it does not come with a huge unwanted tax (Warlock and Vyper probably) is not a whole lot of points and makes the rest of your army always run 6" which is actually amazing depending on the build you want to go for.

[Lost Vyper]

More fun things found, Warp Spider gets sucked in to the warp in the movement phase only with snake eyes, nice. Autarch with a Banshee mask + some CC unit assaulting is nasty = no overwatch :). Karandras, 30 points less and better, Scorpions bite auto-wounds on 2+ (initiative 10), no armor saves...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I like this book a lot. I think they've finally nailed the Aspect Warriors; each of them now does what it should do. Scorpions sneak around and pounce, Banshees leap over obstacles and chop your head off, Warp Spiders scurry away...

[Lost Vyper]

I like this book a lot. I think they've finally nailed the Aspect Warriors; each of them now does what it should do

This. My point exactly (too)!

[_kettu]

The new book is inspiring, many options seem pretty cool that didn't before. (While the book allows for abusive stuff, I'm 0% interested in that.) Especially aspect warriors and Phoenix lords have the right feel. It's a crying shame GW basically gave the opposite treatment to previous 7e books, not only in terms of playability in the power level sense but in the appealingness of rules department. Perhaps they have just recently realized that the secret to keeping the player base happy is to actually write rules that make people inspired to play with all the nice models they make..?

Some random things I picked up on my initial skim through the book:

*Jain Zar's disarm ability apparently not only turns off the enemy weapon's combat profile but also any other abilities it may have. So she could potentially, for example, kill a guy with the Khorne Daemonkin "turns to Bloodthister upon death" axe without all the awkwardness of a Thirster turning up.

*Eldar Missile Launchers seem to now come with flak missiles for no extra cost. This is probably to balance out their new retarded name. ;)

*On top of all their new improvements, Bashees now cost the same amount of points cost as Avengers.

*Doom is now Warp Charge 2. This means there are now a grand total of 2 Runes of Fate powers with Warp Charge cost of 1. Pretty much makes packing the warp charge-lowering relic a no-brainer if it wasn't that already. As a related side note, tanks (particularly Falcons) now coming in squadrons makes for some pretty appealing Guide targets.

*Eldrad Ulthran seems potentially pretty nasty as he always gets the "D3 units get Scout" warlord trait. Potential targets include Scytheguard in a Wave Serpent (the most competitive option probably) as well as the Wraithknight or Avatar. Also, that's a way to get a D-cannon battery withing range in the first turn assuming 24" between armies. Additionally, when taken as part of the Seer Council and rocking some psychic discipline with lower warp charge costs than Fate, his staff might actually generate a meaningful number of extra charges. He still costs almost the same amount of points as 2 bare-bones Farseers though.

*Fuegan is S5, marking the first departure from the until-now universal Phoenix lord statline. :O

[DarkLink]

Seems to be like if you just took the old Wraithknight at the new cost, kept Distort the same as it was, used the old Jetbike rules, and everything else was from the new codex, it would be a pretty awesome book.

[Lost Vyper]

More... some powers got better...Mind War doesn´t backfire and Eldritch Blast got AP3...Fleshbane...okay...:)

[Mr Mystery]

I'm impressed.

Yes, Strength D and lots of it is quite tempting.....but I'd struggle to say it's a definite no-brainier in the face of the other options open to you.

About the only 'why would you?' units from my perspective remain Wraithlords and Storm a Guardians - and even then that's mostly down to the general feel of the game - light assault troops and monstrous creatures are generally slightly bobbins across the board. They can certainly kill stuff, it's just other stuff kills stuff betterer.

[Houghten]

Why would I Wraithlords?

Because I've got half a dozen of the buggers and I'm not going to let them sit around bibbling their lips!

They don't even have lips!

[Mr Mystery]

That is a fair point - but I'm talking as a non-Eldar player.

Definitely no actual sucky units in that Codex. I am very much looking forward to the other books being updated, despite it being quite a lot earlier than expected/typical.

In fact, I'm gonna pop out on a limb here.....ever since the Necron Codex, I can't think of one which has truly terrible units amongst no-brainers. Previously, Necron Flayed Ones were a definite 'but why would I?' type unit. No actually bad per se, but definitely outclassed within their own book.

[Sly]

Seems to be like if you just took the old Wraithknight at the new cost, kept Distort the same as it was, used the old Jetbike rules, and everything else was from the new codex, it would be a pretty awesome book.

That's kind of my thinking also. Wraithlords could have used a buff, but otherwise the only two (three?) issues in the Codes are the WK and Jetbikes, and maybe the Wraithfighter.

[eosgreen]

im the only one who wants to stick a farseer near some warwalkers lol. guess my list wont be as good as the others :p

[DarkLink]

Granted, I'm pretty sure you can build just about the most broken army 40k's ever seen out of the good options, but other than that...

[Lexington]

Seems to be like if you just took the old Wraithknight at the new cost, kept Distort the same as it was, used the old Jetbike rules, and everything else was from the new codex, it would be a pretty awesome book.
I'd append "and remove the more broken formations/metaformation," but generally yes.

[Morollan]

Seems to be like if you just took the old Wraithknight at the new cost, kept Distort the same as it was, used the old Jetbike rules, and everything else was from the new codex, it would be a pretty awesome book.

I think I'd be happy with the new Wraithknight but only at about +100 points. Other than that, as you say, keep the heavy weapons on jetbikes to 1 in 3 and keep the other Distort weapons with the old rules and I think we've got a good but not brokem codex.

[Dalleron]

I noticed that exarchs don't get improved armour if you're a DA, banshee or SH. Unless Im missing something. And almost all of Eldar psychic powers are WC 2 to cast.

Im feeling a straight up army without the formations is the way to go, less taxes to pay.

[Sonikgav]

Using the formations does give you more Troop choices on the board.

It's been a while since I've played but I'd assume that's an advantage?

[Mr.Gold]

I noticed that exarchs don't get improved armour if you're a DA, banshee or SH. Unless Im missing something. And almost all of Eldar psychic powers are WC 2 to cast.

Im feeling a straight up army without the formations is the way to go, less taxes to pay.


Yes but the 3x Aspect formation gets nasty... 3x 5(or 10) man Dark reaper squads with star shot missiles - so much S8 shooting at BS5!!! (525 pts) (can also remove SM tactical squads from table)

combine with Seer council - Casting on 3+ (with rerolls due to Runes of the Farseer), can also give one farseer Spirit Stone of Anath'lan for -1 Warp charge cost. if that farseer gets Eldritch Storm, cast the 4 WC version (down to 3) on a 3+ with rerolls --> Apocalyptic Blast Fleshbane AP3... (costs 390pts - if only 5 warlocks are used)

[Defenestratus]

Played a small game yesterday, 1000 points against my friend Kyle who was borrowing my Blood Angels. He's never played space marines before.

My list was a rather simple guardian warhost formation with the only upgrades really being a d-cannong, a pair of warlocks and a max squad of war walkers. I also took an aspect host of 2x DA and 1x DR. The Dark reapers were - nasty. Totally nasty.

However, the game was really, really close. He had a lot of flamers, and I lost droves upon droves of guardians. Nobody can convince me that guardians are worth taking - if it wasn't of the fact that I had to pay that tax for getting 6" runs across the board, I would never, ever take that formation.

I ended up winning but only because we were playing purge (I had a new codex, he was playing a codex he's never even read before) and he ended up combat squadding all of his marines coming out of drop pods, effectively giving me the KP advantage.

Overall I have to say tha its a stout book with a lot of options - but I'm pretty peeved that I have to take guardians in the first place as I find them rather, ... well... abysmal.

Cool trick you can use if you get the Will of Asuryan power. First time your dudes come under heavy fire, you go to ground... your next turn you can cast the power and if they're in 12" of the farseer they then become fearless and are no longer pinned - so they can battlefocus and shoot. Used to do this trick with the Avatar bubble - now you can do it with the farseer too if you get that power.

[Mr.Gold]

I'm pretty peeved that I have to take guardians in the first place as I find them rather, ... well... abysmal.

Take a Windrider Host instead then - min points is:
farseer skyrunner + spear 120
1x warlock skyrunner 50
3x 3-man windriders, 1x shruiken cannon (so not to be too cheesy) 183
1x vyper + 2xshruiken cannons 50

total = 403

(then add 3x 5-man Dark reaper squads (with starshot) - in aspect host formation) (525pts)

total = 928 (72 points to spend).

[Defenestratus]

Take a Windrider Host instead then - min points is:
farseer skyrunner + spear 120
1x warlock skyrunner 50
3x 3-man windriders, 1x shruiken cannon (so not to be too cheesy) 183
1x vyper + 2xshruiken cannons 50

total = 403

(then add 3x 5-man Dark reaper squads (with starshot) - in aspect host formation) (525pts)

total = 928 (72 points to spend).

I would have run jetbikes but at the moment, I'm having them painted.

[Houghten]

Using the formations does give you more Troop choices on the board.

It's been a while since I've played but I'd assume that's an advantage?

The chief benefit of being a Troop choice is getting Objective Secured, but that only applies in a CAD or AD. In a formation, you're not getting that.

[Dalleron]

Mr. Gold, I see the possibilities of all the hosts and formations. It's the tax of having to buy new models that I don't have at the moment. So I'll stick with normal army list for the time being.

[Zaonite]

The book looks solid. In general I don't think it's going to be as bad as the rage hate suggests. It can't be as bad as the dreaded Draigo/Paladin deathstar.

The formations though are very tasty. I can't see people not taking the aspect warrior formation. It's just too juicy to pass up.

We'll have to see over the next few weeks.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah. The proof of the pudding will be in the next weeks and months (and years). Rightly or wrongly, the reactions to a new book are always at their most, uh, ardent just after release. Personally, I like it.

[Thaldin]

My understanding at this point is that you can take the formations and they count as detachments, no? Granted you don't get the Command Benefit from the CAD/AD or the Eldar Warhost Command Benefit, but you don't have to take all the Warhost pre-req's either?

This would be a legal battle-forged army? So if you want to play Iyanden, you would use the Wraithhost formations and just get no "Command Benefits"?

[Lexington]

My understanding at this point is that you can take the formations and they count as detachments, no?
Some, yes. Some, no. Don't have the book yet, or a list of formations, but there's a discussion of this over on Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page145)

[Defenestratus]

Here are the formations available:

Guardian Battlehost
Windrider Host
Guardian Stormhost
Seer Council
Aspect Host
Dire Avenger Shrine
Crimson Death
Wraith Host

All of those are listed as independent formations in the book. They can be combined in the Craftworld Warhost parent formation as well.

[40kGamer]

Still waiting on my codex to show from GW. It's driving me crazy to not be able to start reorganizing my Warhost! :mad: Looks like a lot of the rage has dwindled which is a good thing I presume. This book goes a long way toward changing how everyone else plays vs how long time Eldar players play. Other than rotating Banshees and Scorpions through my army now I really don't think I'll be changing anything at all.

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Nobody can convince me that guardians are worth taking - if it wasn't of the fact that I had to pay that tax for getting 6" runs across the board, I would never, ever take that formation.

:p I love my Guardians! Like Swooping Hawks they're a staple in my warhost. I usually run 2 squads of 10 with platforms in Serpents for mobile fire support. I've went as high as 3 squads but it eats into the rest of the army quite a bit. (Plus I don't like to run more than 3 serpents and I need one for Fire Dragons or Wraithguard)

[Defenestratus]

:p I love my Guardians! Like Swooping Hawks they're a staple in my warhost. I usually run 2 squads of 10 with platforms in Serpents for mobile fire support. I've went as high as 3 squads but it eats into the rest of the army quite a bit. (Plus I don't like to run more than 3 serpents and I need one for Fire Dragons or Wraithguard)

As long as their primary gun has the range of a spitball, they're terrible. (Don't tell me that BF fixes it, because it doesn't. It only puts them into charge range if they want to use their catapults) Since their primary weapon is such garbage range for a unit that folds like a cheap tent in combat, I really resent having to pay 100pts for a single heavy weapon.

[eldargal]

I've never got the hang of guardians and I still maintain they are a ridiculous unit for a craftworld to field from a lore perspective too. 'we're nearly extinct, lets round up Bob and Shirley and put them in cardboard with a paintball and send the magainst our enemies en masse!'.

[Defenestratus]

I've never got the hang of guardians and I still maintain they are a ridiculous unit for a craftworld to field from a lore perspective too. 'we're nearly extinct, lets round up Bob and Shirley and put them in cardboard with a paintball and send the magainst our enemies en masse!'.

There's that part about it too.... I can understand training them to use tanks and big guns and stuff, but putting the poor gits and gitettes on the front line seems to be a bit ... dire... I guess needs must.

[Path Walker]

Smaller skirmishes and surgical strikes, Aspects make sense but for all out war, which the main 40K game is for, Guardians making up the bulk of the infantry makes sense to me at least, thats how I've always seen the Eldar anyway.

[helline9]

Here are the formations available:

Guardian Battlehost
Windrider Host
Guardian Stormhost
Seer Council
Aspect Host
Dire Avenger Shrine
Crimson Death
Wraith Host

All of those are listed as independent formations in the book. They can be combined in the Craftworld Warhost parent formation as well.

a bit disappointed there isn't a Outcasts (rangers) formation but that's just me i guess

[40kGamer]

As long as their primary gun has the range of a spitball, they're terrible. (Don't tell me that BF fixes it, because it doesn't. It only puts them into charge range if they want to use their catapults) Since their primary weapon is such garbage range for a unit that folds like a cheap tent in combat, I really resent having to pay 100pts for a single heavy weapon.

Well they are fairly useless in an assault. I like them as part of a one two punch. Roll up 6" in Serpent, spin to enemy, deploy 6", shoot then run away! Serpent uses the handy vectored engines (which I really hope we still have!) and spins back to face the enemy. Usually can work it to where an actual decent unit dances back in front of them or where the firepower is so overwhelming in that area that it sweeps the opposition.

While guardians are definitely not sturdy but they are a nice cog in the Warhost machine. The heavy platform is more giving them something to do when you use them to scoot over to a distant objective and camp out. The lazy mooks have to still contribute something more than moral support to the rest of the host. :)

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I've never got the hang of guardians and I still maintain they are a ridiculous unit for a craftworld to field from a lore perspective too. 'we're nearly extinct, lets round up Bob and Shirley and put them in cardboard with a paintball and send the magainst our enemies en masse!'.

I always imagined the 40k battles represent the rare dramatic affairs that require the Craftworlds to muster all the troops.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah. From a background standpoint, the fact that they now have to field Guardians as the bulk of their forces means the Eldar are reluctant to enter into fights unless they know they can win or the circumstances are desperate enough that they have to chance it. The writing in the current book definitely is more "Guardians up" than the last one; once the Craftworlds were able to leave it to the Aspect Warriors, but the exigencies of eking out survival over ten thousand years of borrowed time has made that less and less viable. The Craftworlds themselves are becoming more warlike to survive, which also helps to square the "why is a ****ing poet BS4" and "doesn't going to war kind of mess very badly with the Eldar psyche" circles.

Basically: just take it into account in your battle/campaign narratives and there's not much problem from where I'm sitting.

Still, I'm totally behind someone who only wants to field Aspect Warrior strikeforces.

[Charon]

As long as their primary gun has the range of a spitball, they're terrible. (Don't tell me that BF fixes it, because it doesn't. It only puts them into charge range if they want to use their catapults) Since their primary weapon is such garbage range for a unit that folds like a cheap tent in combat, I really resent having to pay 100pts for a single heavy weapon.

And that happens if you have a luxus problem. When everything in the codex is pretty much better, they are bad. Sure.
The codex basically makes their weapons 18" That is 6" less than the standard range but gets you 2 shots instead of one (this is 6" more than the standard rapid fire range). On top of it there is a free heavy weapon too which works like an assault weapon. Terrible unit. At least compared to a codex of superlatives. For every other codex out there, guardians are decent.
At least if you learned how to move them. Not that you need to learn anything with the new codex... but complaining about a good unit because the rest of the book is better than a good unit is... well...

[Mr Mystery]

Dunno about anyone else, but I'm thrilled you can now boost up your Aspect Warriors to be better at shooting or close combat than a Guardian.

Got no issue with Bs4 Guardians - they're Eldar, and they all train for combat at some point, even if they don't explore an Aspect. But Aspect Warriors who dedicate themselves to a chosen path should be either WS5 or BS5. Just makes sense. Otherwise, it would seem someone walking the path of the painter becomes notable for just being able to use a different brush, but still results in the same old landscape.

[-Tom-]

Dunno about anyone else, but I'm thrilled you can now boost up your Aspect Warriors to be better at shooting or close combat than a Guardian.

Got no issue with Bs4 Guardians - they're Eldar, and they all train for combat at some point, even if they don't explore an Aspect. But Aspect Warriors who dedicate themselves to a chosen path should be either WS5 or BS5. Just makes sense. Otherwise, it would seem someone walking the path of the painter becomes notable for just being able to use a different brush, but still results in the same old landscape.

Yep, I don't remember if I've said it before on here or just in conversations with people, but I think it's the problem with the game now using purely D6's. It limits the variation that you can have.


So, I liked representing guardians as being better than a guardsmen, because fluff-wise Eldar have the better reflexes, better sight, better agility etc. then it seems to make sense to make them BS4/WS4 vs the human's 3/3. Problem is it then puts them level with a space marine, unless you up standard marines to 5/5, but then once you get to really high BS it just becomes clunky because you're still going to initially miss on a 1, and really high WS isn't all that beneficial because there isn't that much variation in the WS vs WS table. Second problem, as you say, is that aspect warriors then weren't getting much better than guardians at what they've specifically trained to do.

The other option to upping WS/BS is to start giving out special rules, like Preferred enemy, so you might stick at a certain BS, but are effectively slightly better because you can re-roll 1's. Again though, the more of this there is the clunkier it gets.

Whereas, say, if you had a d8 instead you could have humans as BS3, Guardians as BS4, and standard marines as BS5 without feeling like you're 'running out of space' towards the top of the BS chart.

Sure, you'd maybe need to change overwatch too otherwise if you're counting everything as BS1 on overwatch then you're only hitting 1/8 times now rather than 1/6, but it's been suggested elsewhere that having overwatch being at, say, a -2 penalty might be better anyway rather than the situation where an individual Ork has the same chance to hit a charging enemy as a Space Marine Captain.

[Lord Mayhem]

In my digital copy of the codex it lists Jetbikes under the equipment for rangers (along with many other typos). Anyone else got that?
I see plasma grenades have lost pinning; not a big loss given how often it (doesn't) makes a difference, but a loss of flavor that vexes me somewhat.

[ShadowcatX]

And that happens if you have a luxus problem. When everything in the codex is pretty much better, they are bad. Sure.
The codex basically makes their weapons 18" That is 6" less than the standard range but gets you 2 shots instead of one (this is 6" more than the standard rapid fire range). On top of it there is a free heavy weapon too which works like an assault weapon. Terrible unit. At least compared to a codex of superlatives. For every other codex out there, guardians are decent.
At least if you learned how to move them. Not that you need to learn anything with the new codex... but complaining about a good unit because the rest of the book is better than a good unit is... well...

Oh really? Compare a guardian to a skitarri and see who comes out on top. Worse BS for a shooty unit, 1 in 10 heavy weapons rather than 2 in 5, no free scout move, shorter range gun, fewer shot gun, worse armor (and the difference between 5+ and 4+ is huge), and no "everyone in close combat takes -1 T." In exchange they get a bladestorm (if they actually get to shoot) and battle focus, which means that starting on turn 3, they're an inch further forward only two turns more of running and their weapons will reach the same point on the table that skitarri weapons hit, GREAT!

[40kGamer]

Dunno about anyone else, but I'm thrilled you can now boost up your Aspect Warriors to be better at shooting or close combat than a Guardian.

Got no issue with Bs4 Guardians - they're Eldar, and they all train for combat at some point, even if they don't explore an Aspect. But Aspect Warriors who dedicate themselves to a chosen path should be either WS5 or BS5. Just makes sense. Otherwise, it would seem someone walking the path of the painter becomes notable for just being able to use a different brush, but still results in the same old landscape.

Damn Skippy! Very cool change.

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Yep, I don't remember if I've said it before on here or just in conversations with people, but I think it's the problem with the game now using purely D6's. It limits the variation that you can have.

Totally agree. The D6 is a terribly limiting aspect of the design... Emperor knows they've played with every other aspect of the game to get the most mileage out of it. (Range, ROF, etc) It gets hilarious when you need to roll 100+ D6's to try and resolve a single action. On the plus side, if they are actually willing to go round bases for WFB 9th (I won't believe it until I see it) then maybe we could see a D10 system for combat resolution in the future.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

My initial impression is they have changed the feel of Eldar again. In the past I felt like the Eldar simply existed. Lamented about their lost empire and culture, and every once in a while would go kill someone that somewhere down the road would cause a hiccup in them just existing. And that they only played a marginal role in the 40k universe.

That has changed dramatically to me with this last book. Now it feels like they aren't just existing waiting to go extinct, but that they are flourishing again, being the flame at in its brightest moments before going out.

I've read in other threads on how many Eldar are actually still alive and what not, and now it feels more like the untold billions of space elves are not just existing but thriving, and doing all they can to revive their race.

I also feel like they've become more inline with the fantasy High Elves with having a standing militia at all times, training for war in times of strife, versus how guardians used to be former aspect warriors only.

This is how I've always thought Eldar should be written, and how my own personal craftworld rejects the whole edge of extinction rhetoric, and are flourishing. So to be biased, I really love the overall feel of the direction the Eldar have taken.

[40kGamer]

Oh really? Compare a guardian to a skitarri and see who comes out on top. Worse BS for a shooty unit, 1 in 10 heavy weapons rather than 2 in 5, no free scout move, shorter range gun, fewer shot gun, worse armor (and the difference between 5+ and 4+ is huge), and no "everyone in close combat takes -1 T." In exchange they get a bladestorm (if they actually get to shoot) and battle focus, which means that starting on turn 3, they're an inch further forward only two turns more of running and their weapons will reach the same point on the table that skitarri weapons hit, GREAT!

Guardians must be even more of a personal taste and style unit than normal. Of course I've always had them in my lists so when they added +1BS, Battle Focus and Bladestorm for what was +1 PV I was in Eldar heaven. I really get a lot of mileage out of them on table.

[Arkhan Land]

Yep, I don't remember if I've said it before on here or just in conversations with people, but I think it's the problem with the game now using purely D6's. It limits the variation that you can have.


So, I liked representing guardians as being better than a guardsmen, because fluff-wise Eldar have the better reflexes, better sight, better agility etc. then it seems to make sense to make them BS4/WS4 vs the human's 3/3. Problem is it then puts them level with a space marine, unless you up standard marines to 5/5, but then once you get to really high BS it just becomes clunky because you're still going to initially miss on a 1, and really high WS isn't all that beneficial because there isn't that much variation in the WS vs WS table. Second problem, as you say, is that aspect warriors then weren't getting much better than guardians at what they've specifically trained to do.

The other option to upping WS/BS is to start giving out special rules, like Preferred enemy, so you might stick at a certain BS, but are effectively slightly better because you can re-roll 1's. Again though, the more of this there is the clunkier it gets.

Whereas, say, if you had a d8 instead you could have humans as BS3, Guardians as BS4, and standard marines as BS5 without feeling like you're 'running out of space' towards the top of the BS chart.

Sure, you'd maybe need to change overwatch too otherwise if you're counting everything as BS1 on overwatch then you're only hitting 1/8 times now rather than 1/6, but it's been suggested elsewhere that having overwatch being at, say, a -2 penalty might be better anyway rather than the situation where an individual Ork has the same chance to hit a charging enemy as a Space Marine Captain.

The D6 versus D8/D10 Etc problem definitely hinders variety but to be honest the gaurdian problem is a weirder one, as far as I remember only until 6th were gaurdians ever bs/ws4 ever aside from the Black-Gaurdians from craftworld eldar, not really sure why this changed.

[ShadowcatX]

Guardians must be even more of a personal taste and style unit than normal. Of course I've always had them in my lists so when they added +1BS, Battle Focus and Bladestorm for what was +1 PV I was in Eldar heaven. I really get a lot of mileage out of them on table.

Its fine to have units that you like and make a pet project, but let's not act like they're a great unit and simply being over shadowed by even better units. They're not.

[40kGamer]

Its fine to have units that you like and make a pet project, but let's not act like they're a great unit and simply being over shadowed by even better units. They're not.

Consider them in the larger context. For Eldar, Guardians are cheap boots on the ground that are still superior to a lot of other troops in the entire game. And From a synergy standpoint they also perform amazingly well with the rest of the army.

[ShadowcatX]

Consider them in the larger context. For Eldar, Guardians are cheap boots on the ground that are still superior to a lot of other troops in the entire game. And From a synergy standpoint they also perform amazingly well with the rest of the army.

To whom are they superior and how? I just compared them to the skitarii and "superior" is not even close to how I would describe the equally costed guardians.

[Arkhan Land]

Lets do a compare

Skit. Pros:
-Has a Character
-Cheaper at 5 more costly at full strength, cool to have smaller option
-Comparable BS
-Comparable Weapons, PS is a cool rule, so is Bladestorm, added ap
-Can take three "Heavier" Weapons
-Doctrina
-Relentless

Cons:
-Weapon Upgrades are EXSPENSIVE
-No transport, repeat no transport

Gaurdian Pros:
-Bladestorm - theres things they can wound AP2 that the S4 cant touch
-Initiative 5, in combat this can be a bruiser
-Weapons Platforms weapon choices are awesome and RELENTLESS for the person shooting them
-also Weapons platforms give you that one T5 3+ model that isnt a dude.
-Can take arguably the one of the best DTs in the game
-Battle focus is shenanigin #1 we just saw the knights got that gattling cannon, one of the best things about the gaurdians is the abilit to MOVE IT out of LOS running twice with fleet is no joke.

Gaurdian Cons:
-No Character
-Need ten
-No Special Weapons beyond 1/10 platform
-SCs are some damn short range.

and heres the most brutal part where I draw the line personally

My dream build for skittari rangers will (three arc rifles, omni., weapons for Alpha) costs about 200 points.
My dream build for Gaurdians w/scatL with a serpent costs about 240 in points

if you just want to compare just infantry to infantry take a double gaurdian sqaud with scatters for 220. which inside of the SCs range is much more so the Dakka and subsequent danger.

So its really a matter of what you are going to do with them. Hosts of Metal doing well against vehicles, and the hosts of Flesh being able to slice even the toughest fatties

[Mr Mystery]

A non-Eldar player's perspective on Guardians.

They worry me. I know they're short ranged. I know they fold like a cheap suit when I turn my attentions on them.

But they do objective camping quite exquisitely. They tie into the wider Eldar army very nicely. If they're on an objective, and they're not the main target of the kickings I intend to dish out in my next turn, I'll try to keep outside their range, because they're really, really nasty. Even without Bladestorm, I really don't fancy that many BS4, S4 AP5 shots at my dudes. Add in Bladestorm, and it can turn even a marginally flukey batch of dice into a wholesale slaughter.

All the time I'm wary of wandering into range, whilst trying to keep the real heavy hitters dealt with (Aspects, Wraith Constructs, Tanks), my positioning is limited.

Worst case scenario I once blundered right into? Landraider Crusader filled with Terminators, parked a little too close. Sodding Wraithguard popped the Landraider, and the Guardians massacred all my Terminators. That sort of experience leaves an impression!

[ShadowcatX]

Lets do a compare

Skit. Pros:
-Has a Character
-Cheaper at 5 more costly at full strength, cool to have smaller option

Only more expensive if you look at Rangers. Vanguard are much more comparable.


-Comparable BS

If by comparable you mean 1 - 3 points better for the most important turns of the game, then sure, they're comparable.


-Comparable Weapons, PS is a cool rule, so is Bladestorm, added ap

Really? 12 inches vs 18 inches, 2 shots vs 3 shots. Bladestorm is only good if you actually get to use it.


-Can take three "Heavier" Weapons

In a 5 person squad (including the character's weapon choice.)

You also forgot to mention their scouting move.


Cons:
-No transport, repeat no transport

Which is a really, REALLY big deal since they have a 12 inch range, no extra movement at the start of the game, and no or few heavy weapons. Oh wait, that's guardians. Skitarii don't need a transport.



Gaurdian Pros:
-Bladestorm - theres things they can wound AP2 that the S4 cant touch

Yes, for the 1 turn you can use it, blade storm can be nice.


-Initiative 5, in combat this can be a bruiser

Really? I mean really? Has anyone been like "I'm going to take these guardians and take advantage of their I5" ever? Looks like you're reaching here.


-Weapons Platforms weapon choices are awesome and RELENTLESS for the person shooting them
-also Weapons platforms give you that one T5 3+ model that isnt a dude.

They're not bad, but you get to take 1 in 10 guardians.


-Can take arguably the one of the best DTs in the game

And most expensive.


-Battle focus is shenanigin #1 we just saw the knights got that gattling cannon, one of the best things about the gaurdians is the abilit to MOVE IT out of LOS running twice with fleet is no joke.

Really? If I was running guardians I'd be all about having the S6, AP 3, rending gun shoot at my T3, Sv 5+, cheap dudes who only need 1 person in the squad to man single heavy weapon that they came with.

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I know they're short ranged. I know they fold like a cheap suit when I turn my attentions on them.

But they do objective camping quite exquisitely.

What makes them good at objective camping, their short range or them folding like a cheap suit? Either way, I've apparently been doing my objective camping wrong because I thought the ideal objective campers would have a good range and some resilience.

[Mr Mystery]

Read the rest of me post. It's all in there.

[ShadowcatX]

Read the rest of me post. It's all in there.

The part where you say if they aren't targeted they will survive, and they one time got real lucky in one game and so obviously they are good? Didn't think that was worth addressing, but I did read it, I assure you.

[40kGamer]

To whom are they superior and how? I just compared them to the skitarii and "superior" is not even close to how I would describe the equally costed guardians.

For starters if we do a 1:1 compare outside of codex synergies I would bet
11 Guardians + Warlock with a Singing Spear and a Scatter Laser which clocks in at 154 are better than
10 Tactical Marines with a flamer and a Heavy Bolter that clocks in at 155.
(Arbitrarily chose the heavy weapons with a comparable ROF and range.)

With deployment and cover (Which ever board has in spades if it is set up properly) the Guardians have the advantage of dancing in and out of the Hvy Bolter for the marines with the Scatter Laser forcing the marines to be be aggressive and close with them. The Warlock is pretty reliable at buffing the Guardians cover save and the Marines are not likely to close the distance to punish them with their bolters/flamer before they give in to attrition.

[40kGamer]

The part where you say if they aren't targeted they will survive, and they one time got real lucky in one game and so obviously they are good? Didn't think that was worth addressing, but I did read it, I assure you.

If someone is targeting my Guardians either:
A) They are extremely bad at target priority or
B) The rest of my army is already dead and I've probably lost the game

[Defenestratus]

For starters if we do a 1:1 compare outside of codex synergies I would bet
11 Guardians + Warlock with a Singing Spear and a Scatter Laser which clocks in at 154 are better than
10 Tactical Marines with a flamer and a Heavy Bolter that clocks in at 155.
(Arbitrarily chose the heavy weapons with a comparable ROF and range.)

With deployment and cover (Which ever board has in spades if it is set up properly) the Guardians have the advantage of dancing in and out of the Hvy Bolter for the marines with the Scatter Laser forcing the marines to be be aggressive and close with them. The Warlock is pretty reliable at buffing the Guardians cover save and the Marines are not likely to close the distance to punish them with their bolters/flamer before they give in to attrition.

Two can play that game.

120 pts, 5 marines w/flamer, combi flamer and a drop pod.

Lotsa dead guardians....

Which is what always seems to happen to me.

[40kGamer]

Two can play that game.

120 pts, 5 marines w/flamer, combi flamer and a drop pod.

Lotsa dead guardians....

Which is what always seems to happen to me.

You ain't wrong! :p ...Unless they're chilling in a pimped out Serpent. :)

[Defenestratus]

You ain't wrong! :p ...Unless they're chilling in a pimped out Serpent. :)

Would rather pay the points for a serpent to a squad that's actually more than the transport itself.

[ShadowcatX]

If someone is targeting my Guardians either:
A) They are extremely bad at target priority or
B) The rest of my army is already dead and I've probably lost the game

Or else your guardians have taken an objective and they are trying to push you off it.

Now tell me, if guardians are the bomb diggity, why would it be a mistake to target them early? They are really good and threatening, right?

And your theoretical example is so horrible it is laughable, and yet you are betting on the wrong horse. Marines hang out in the 23 - 24 inch range, and the guardians eat 11 shots a turn while putting out 4. If the guardians run close enough to use their shuriken cats they'll get charged. And that's with the deck purposefully stacked against the Marines by giving them the worst heavy weapon option and special weapon option in the codex.

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You ain't wrong! :p ...Unless they're chilling in a pimped out Serpent. :)

Guardians can't afford a serpent at 120 points. Not even close.

[40kGamer]

Now tell me, if guardians are the bomb diggity, why would it be a mistake to target them early? They are really good and threatening, right?

Being useful and good for their points doesn't mean that they are the scariest thing on the table. GW totally screwing up the points on the ranged S D Wraith units and the Jetbikes guaranteed that.


And your theoretical example is so horrible it is laughable, and yet you are betting on the wrong horse. Marines hang out in the 23 - 24 inch range, and the guardians eat 11 shots a turn while putting out 4. If the guardians run close enough to use their shuriken cats they'll get charged. And that's with the deck purposefully stacked against the Marines by giving them the worst heavy weapon option and special weapon option in the codex.

Why would the Guardians bother setting up or closing to anything closer than the 36" range of the Scatter? They are made to dance in and out of range and limit the enemies ability to respond. And what would you give the marines? A grav gun or plasma gun? They're more expensive (meaning more Guardians) and the extra shots out of range don't exactly help. A Missile Launcher would at least let the marines drop a small blast on the Guardians from far away but it isn't going to kill them faster than the Scatter kills marines.


Guardians can't afford a serpent at 120 points. Not even close.

Why not? AT 1850 - 2000 Guardians in a Serpent are easy to fit in. Especially with the undercosted Wraiths and Bikes.

[Mr Mystery]

I think we've found someone complaining for the sake of complaining.

Properly equipped, Guardians can knack anything. Costs some points (oh noes!) but 20 Grauniads with a pair of Bright Lances are a prickly prospect, and present an overall flexibility of purpose otherwise lacking in Craftworld Eldar, where specialisation is very much the core of the army and indeed the background thereof.

[ShadowcatX]

Why would the Guardians bother setting up or closing to anything closer than the 36" range of the Scatter? They are made to dance in and out of range and limit the enemies ability to respond. And what would you give the marines? A grav gun or plasma gun? They're more expensive (meaning more Guardians) and the extra shots out of range don't exactly help. A Missile Launcher would at least let the marines drop a small blast on the Guardians from far away but it isn't going to kill them faster than the Scatter kills marines.

Me thinks you vastly overrate the scatter laser vs. marines. 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3rd pass armor save, 1/6 pass FNP. That's just under 2/3rds of a marine a turn.


Why not? AT 1850 - 2000 Guardians in a Serpent are easy to fit in. Especially with the undercosted Wraiths and Bikes.

Because you arbitrarily picked 150 points for the example and you can't get a unit of guardians with a wave serpent for less than 200. And it sounds like you're salty about wraiths and bikes and so you're projecting, forget the wraiths and bikes, this discussion is about rather or not guardian defenders are good.

On a side note, I do believe storm guardians are playable, except by comparison to other units, specifically in their formation, with a warlock with spear, and being delivered in a Raider. 3 solid anti-tank shots, and they have the potential to do some damage in melee, especially with a little luck on the psychic powers.

[40kGamer]

Would rather pay the points for a serpent to a squad that's actually more than the transport itself.

Serpents definitely add a lot to Dragons and WG since they offer amazing protection while you cruise across the table to lay waste to things... And if I want to go all Conan with list optimization I would use MSU bikes as troops unless trying to unlock a special rule. However using the obviously miscosted troop option doesn't reflect poorly on the foot Guardians... it's just a sign that GW missed the mark on the relative internal points values... again.

[ShadowcatX]

I think we've found someone complaining for the sake of complaining.

Properly equipped, Guardians can knack anything. Costs some points (oh noes!) but 20 Grauniads with a pair of Bright Lances are a prickly prospect, and present an overall flexibility of purpose otherwise lacking in Craftworld Eldar, where specialisation is very much the core of the army and indeed the background thereof.

I'm not complaining, I'm simply keeping people in line. Tell me, if you were putting together a new army and guardian defenders were a universal troops choice, which army would you go "Oh, i'll field those, I don't want my other troops choices." Necrons? Marines? Tyranids? Sisters?

[Mr Mystery]

When in the name of Satan's twelve foot of throbbing red gristle do you get that all marines have FnP?

And when answering, do remember that 'everyone knows' is not a defence, but admission you basically have nowt to back up your assertion.

Bad enough you depend entirely upon statistical probability when in the 'career' of any gamer they're unlikely to chuck a statistically significant number of dice, but you do so in a game with a great number of possible variables that sheer statistical probability becomes frankly mind boggling for the lay person.

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Defenders aren't a universal troops choice. Your point is entirely moot.

You may as well ask what I would do in the same case if I could shoot Unicorns out my nipsy.

[40kGamer]

Me thinks you vastly overrate the scatter laser vs. marines. 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3rd pass armor save, 1/6 pass FNP. That's just under 2/3rds of a marine a turn.

Makes sense the marines would want the Iron Hands tactic to unlock the FNP. But 2/3 of a marine beats 0 Guardians. (Unless it's the missle launcher option which would hit something although it would still mathhammer out to less than 2/3 per turn.



Because you arbitrarily picked 150 points for the example and you can't get a unit of guardians with a wave serpent for less than 200.

Yes I did. I picked the most common troop choice in the game with no vehicles in the mix to keep it simple as we are comparing single units in a vacuum. If we do 10 guardians with a platform in a Serpent vs 10 marines in a Pod with upgrades to a comparable PV I'd still bet on the Defenders. The Marines have almost 0 chance of tanking the Serpent when they drop and in a game of maneuver the Eldar almost never lose.


And it sounds like you're salty about wraiths and bikes and so you're projecting, forget the wraiths and bikes, this discussion is about rather or not guardian defenders are good.

Not salty at all. I've played Eldar since RT so GW blowing PV's isn't a shock... they're almost guaranteed to do it every codex on something. Just stating that once we come out of the vacuum of comparing single units abilities the sky is the limit. Guardian defenders have some very natural synergies with the Warhost as a whole. They're not WAAC points optimized like the bikes and Wraiths but they work just fine.

[deinol]

Wait, why does everyone think bikes are under costed? Nobody complained about the price before, and it hasn't actually changed, right? As interesting as scatter lasers are, I'm sticking with shuriken cannons. Love that blade storm against marines.

[40kGamer]

Wait, why does everyone think bikes are under costed? Nobody complained about the price before, and it hasn't actually changed, right? As interesting as scatter lasers are, I'm sticking with shuriken cannons. Love that blade storm against marines.

They've been an amazing value since the last dex but the Serpent was so crazy good that it took the full share of Nerdrage. :p

I don't think Scatterbikes are the bees knees either... I may use a few but unless I see a big tabletop difference I'll be sticking with the trusty Cannon too.

[ShadowcatX]

When in the name of Satan's twelve foot of throbbing red gristle do you get that all marines have FnP?

So you think a fair example of how good guardians are requires the marines not be allowed to use their special rules?


And when answering, do remember that 'everyone knows' is not a defence, but admission you basically have nowt to back up your assertion.

Please refrain from attacking arguments you think I might hypothetically make and actually let me speak for myself. Just because you're anonymous and online doesn't mean you shouldn't show a modicum of respect.


Bad enough you depend entirely upon statistical probability when in the 'career' of any gamer they're unlikely to chuck a statistically significant number of dice, but you do so in a game with a great number of possible variables that sheer statistical probability becomes frankly mind boggling for the lay person.

Coming from the guy who put forth "if no one shoots them they can hold an objective good" and "they did really good in my annecdotal story so obviously they are good" I will take statistical probability every time.


Defenders aren't a universal troops choice. Your point is entirely moot.

So hypothetical situations are acceptable when they are weighted in your favor butwhen it is turned around hypotheticals don't matter and my point is moot? That is blatant hypocrisy.


You may as well ask what I would do in the same case if I could shoot Unicorns out my nipsy.

I'll just leave this little gem here.

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Makes sense the marines would want the Iron Hands tactic to unlock the FNP. But 2/3 of a marine beats 0 Guardians. (Unless it's the missle launcher option which would hit something although it would still mathhammer out to less than 2/3 per turn.

So your whole argument is if guardians are better than marines in a purely hypothetical world where the marines can't shoot back. Sadly, even in that world, at the end of the game the marines still contest the objective, and have had 7 turns of shooting something else.


Yes I did. I picked the most common troop choice in the game with no vehicles in the mix to keep it simple as we are comparing single units in a vacuum. If we do 10 guardians with a platform in a Serpent vs 10 marines in a Pod with upgrades to a comparable PV I'd still bet on the Defenders. The Marines have almost 0 chance of tanking the Serpent when they drop and in a game of maneuver the Eldar almost never lose.

This proves absolutely nothing about guardians. You understand that, right?

[40kGamer]

So your whole argument is if guardians are better than marines in a purely hypothetical world where the marines can't shoot back. Sadly, even in that world, at the end of the game the marines still contest the objective, and have had 7 turns of shooting something else.

This is a comparison of two units on the table in a vacuum, there isn't anything else for the marines to shoot at for 7 turns. What it highlights is that the design element of Guardians is their ability to outmaneuver and threaten things while limiting their exposure.


This proves absolutely nothing about guardians. You understand that, right?

Well it proves that Guardians are not a blunt instrument and that they can be effective if used appropriately. I'm also thinking that no one has provided anything other than 'not liking' them as evidence that Guardians somehow represent a poor value either.

[ShadowcatX]

This is a comparison of two units on the table in a vacuum, there isn't anything else for the marines to shoot at for 7 turns. What it highlights is that the design element of Guardians is their ability to outmaneuver and threaten things while limiting their exposure.



Well it proves that Guardians are not a blunt instrument and that they can be effective if used appropriately. I'm also thinking that no one has provided anything other than 'not liking' them as evidence that Guardians somehow represent a poor value either.

Did you miss the comparison to skitarri vanguard earlier?

[Mr Mystery]

Skitarii Vanguard - one unit amongst a whopping choice of seven units within its army.

Guardians - one unit amongst how many? units within its army.

As for anecdote, again re-read my post. In itself it is an anecdote, and has not been presented otherwise. It's a post about why, as only an opponent to Eldar, I worry about Guardians.

Listen to your foe. Anything he worries about is unlikely to be rubbish. He may very well have a stronger perspective looking from the outside in. I tend to leave them alone to focus instead on your aggressive units - whilst actively trying to avoid wandering into that 12" bubble of indiscriminate death.

[Path Walker]

I think people are complaining because Eldar now need a bit of finese again rather than relying of wave serpent spam.

[ShadowcatX]

Skitarii Vanguard - one unit amongst a whopping choice of seven units within its army.

Guardians - one unit amongst how many? units within its army.

Your point? This isn't a comparison of the two armies.


As for anecdote, again re-read my post. In itself it is an anecdote, and has not been presented otherwise. It's a post about why, as only an opponent to Eldar, I worry about Guardians.

Listen to your foe. Anything he worries about is unlikely to be rubbish. He may very well have a stronger perspective looking from the outside in. I tend to leave them alone to focus instead on your aggressive units - whilst actively trying to avoid wandering into that 12" bubble of indiscriminate death.

Unless of course my foe is contradictory, you act like you are terrified of guardians, while simultaneously saying they are not worth your time to kill.

The simple fact that you don't view them as worth killing yet knowing they die very easy (by your own admission) should tell you they aren't good.

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I think people are complaining because Eldar now need a bit of finese again rather than relying of wave serpent spam.

And I think some people have reading difficulties. Guardians were put forward as a unit that is good, but over shadowed. I am contesting that opinion.

So far the evidence put forward on the pro-guardian side is if you don't allow a unit of marines to shoot or charge them, and the marines stay in line of sight, guardians will, over the courseof the game, kill 4-5 marines. And, lest I forget, in one random game guardians did well once.

On the con-guardian side is a comparison of the guardian vs a vanguard which makes the guardian look like utter trash, and the fact that if the marines shoot back at the guardians you have a pile of dead guardians. And the fact that opponents don't think guardians are even worth killing.

Which argument sounds better to you?

[Mr Mystery]

Uh huh. Right.

If you really can't see why direct, unit for unit comparisons across armies are foolish, nor even entertain the points of anyone else, because you've clearly made up your mind, why exactly do you continue?

[Charon]

Because every unit always is alone on its own...
There are a lot of options in a lot of books that are medicore at best when only used on their own but get way stronger through synergies.

A properly used (and that means Detachment) Guardian Squad comes at 90 points, always runs 6" and gets a free heavy weapon (with relentless) ranging from a skyfire Missile launcher down to another multi shot weapon with Bladestorm. For another 35 points it can sit down and enjoy a 3+ or even 2+ cover save and probably another minor benefit.
Or you just add a Serpent (which is still good and the only reason why the other Aspects are good - or would you argue that footslogging firedrakes are any good?) and get them close to blast away.
While they are surely not anywhere near the top ranking of all armies they are still a decent choice. It is just that DA and Windriders are better. The former because of their galore of special rules, the later because they are extremely undercosted.

[Power Klawz]

Look at the applications of guardians and then compare the other units in the codex that can accomplish that application.

For one, holding an objective in your starting area. For another, fire support.

For holding an objective, they are quite good for a number of reasons. These are:

1: Comparable survival rates to more expensive alternatives.: As troops, they are only really competing with Dire Avengers for early objective camping. If you pay for jetbikes to sit on easily reachable objectives you're doing it wrong. Dire Avengers are better in basically every way, but substantially more expensive and most definitely more suited to the fire support role in an attacking capacity. Yes, guardians wear flimsy jumpsuits they bought at lululemon to do yoga in, but when you're camping in cover and going to ground this becomes a moot point. You get more wounds than avengers that will take the same number of bullets each to get rid of.

2: Comparable killing power to more expensive alternatives: The number of bodies they make is about the same as dire avengers. Yes, they are very limited in range for their main armament, but as a defensive unit this isn't much of a hindrance. They are used as opportunistic ambushers for units that wonder too close to their objective, or as a stern deterrence to an advancing enemy. If you get within the standard 12 inch rapid fire range of guardians in cover, you're going to lose unless you're using an assault unit. They will outshoot most everything in a 12 inch firefight.

3: Greater versatility than comparable units: They can take weapons platforms. This will not only allow them to threaten targets further away than 12 inches, but to threaten a wider variety of targets as well. If nothing wicked this way comes, they can take a few pot shots at flyers, vehicles etc. Obviously this isn't a game breaking amount of firepower, but it can be used to good effect and, again, makes guardians the superior objective campers since they can still have an impact on the wider battle while staying safely within the confines of good cover. Avengers can't do that.

Now none of this is to say that guardians are some sort of all-killy force of ultimate destruction. There are some very obvious counters to them, but of course these counters are still effective against any alternatives in the eldar list, and in fact are generally more effective due to the cheapness of guardian wounds. yes flamers are bad for guardians, and drop podding flamer bros will ruin your day, but that does little to diminish the overall efficacy of guardians. Killing things in this game is inherently easier than surviving, its a design element. You counter flamer usage by having a lot of bodies on important objectives, having fast response support available, by proper spacing of your unit when you suspect template weapons are inbound, and by shooting the offending unit off the table in the ensuing round.

Certain units are designed as counters to objective campers, and if your opponent had the providence or wherewithal to pick the proper application of rock, paper or flamer in your current contest then he's going to perform well against your units. This is not a unique weakness to eldar or guardians, so I don't feel it can be used to formulate a cogent argument against their efficacy.

The second application for guardians is in a fire support role. Now obviously other units in the eldar list do this better, but guardians still remain a cheaper option that still allows access to the best transport/main battle tank in the game. They make a serviceable response force when held in reserves, can move forward with the support of other units, take an objective in the enemies territory and install themselves, at which point they becomes quite good, as I have previously explained. Sure if you've got the points take avengers for this role, but guardians can still do it and for cheaper.

Its also fair to point out that not every army is swaddled in power armor and rocking HUEG BICEPS. There are weedier, shootier armies out there and guardians can give a lot of them a run for their money in a dust up. Guardsmen, other varieties of eldar (excluding harlequins of course, who will do unspeakable yet artistic things to them) tau, cultists. Obviously shooty guardians probably shouldn't be looking at a "punch first" strategy from the onset, but when the chips are down and if they've got the numbers (or even better, a warlock) they'll at least get to hit first and hope they do enough damage to cripple the unit before it hits back. The fact that they just filled the unit full of holes in the shooting phase will also help in this endeavor.

[Erik Setzer]

I feel like even in a vacuum, Guardians aren't bad. They can put out some nice firepower, and while it might be short-ranged, they can move 6+D6" in a turn in order to get in range. They might seem easy to kill, but you can get a Warlock to give them Conceal and make them a lot tougher to move off an area, especially ruins.

But then you start looking at them in an Eldar War Host. Suddenly it's 6"+6" in a turn they can move. Their heavy weapon becomes free. They can get close to a nasty target that might be ignoring them thinking they can't hurt it... and then they end up giving the Vaul's Support Battery hanging out elsewhere Preferred Enemy when firing at that target. Putting them in a Wave Serpent makes it easier to get them close to such a target, especially as the vehicle can move 6", they can disembark 6", and then run 6"... though if they have a weapon platform, that means no Warlock (but does hold their cost down quite a bit).

And if your opponent ignores them, they aren't dying. If he notices this relatively inexpensive unit has some potent firepower close to his line *and* is allowing artillery to hit him harder, he'll likely turn his attention to them, which then allows other units to work with less harassment.

They're not a straightforward point-them-at-the-enemy-and-bludgeon-him unit, but they certainly have some solid uses, and I have no problem taking Guardians in my army.

[Thaldin]

Not sure if I missed it or not, but I haven't seen one thing mentioned that helps make guardian squads amazing objective holders. The fact they can take a warlock. Conceal, plus cover or going to ground gives them some durability. Combined with a weapon platform, they can contribute to helping soften up enemy squads. No, they are not front line assault units, but they are excellent objective holders, which lines up kind of with the concept of taking them in desperate situations.

-- edit --
Fixed an auto-correct and a term

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

And anyone going after them in said cover has to pull it off, because the consequences of fluffing it are effing hideous.

The only things nekkid Guardians can't freely knack are tanks. Bright lance platform upgrade, and there's nothing they cannot threaten. That's a rare flexibility within the Eldar army, where things tend to do one thing incredibly well, but are bobbins at anything else.

[40kGamer]

Look at the applications of guardians and then compare the other units in the codex that can accomplish that application.

Very nice summary. +1

- - - Updated - - -


While they are surely not anywhere near the top ranking of all armies they are still a decent choice. It is just that DA and Windriders are better. The former because of their galore of special rules, the later because they are extremely undercosted.

I would definitely argue the bikes are the best overall troops choice by a safe margin. They are so cheap for what they can do!

[Hal]

Don't have the codex yet but I'm looking at some blurry pictures and it seems that swooping hawks can do their intercept move on fliers and FMCs regardless if they are zooming or not... Not sure if it was intended or not, but that makes it even better. Am I missing something?

[Charon]

Nope you are not missing something. But to be fair the intercept move is pretty worthless against FMC. What makes it strong against flyers is the haywire rule. Against FMC it is a single attack on a 4+ with S4 and AP-. Not game breaking.

[Hal]

It says "a model with this special rule can make one attack"... Since all of them have the rule it means a full squad could have 10 attacks.. That could do some damage..
Now when I look at it, this is actually stupid good.. No flyer can survive that... :-/

[Power Klawz]

Wow that's cray cray. Also, landing a bunch of flying jump kicks on a Bloodthirster is basically the best thing ever.

The one thing I am pretty depressed about is that I have been waiting since the last codex for new aspect plastics. I bought the old codex the day it was released and have been basically standing outside my FLGS with a fist full of dollars waiting. A new codex and still nothing. I am a sad panda.

[40kGamer]

Wow that's cray cray. Also, landing a bunch of flying jump kicks on a Bloodthirster is basically the best thing ever.

The one thing I am pretty depressed about is that I have been waiting since the last codex for new aspect plastics. I bought the old codex the day it was released and have been basically standing outside my FLGS with a fist full of dollars waiting. A new codex and still nothing. I am a sad panda.

I'm hoping that GW lets this codex age for at least 4 years before replacing it.... again! In that time maybe they will do some splash releases for plastic Aspects. Although after waiting 25 years for *any* official model of a Farseer/Warlock on a Jetbike it could still be a while.

[Defenestratus]

It says "a model with this special rule can make one attack"... Since all of them have the rule it means a full squad could have 10 attacks.. That could do some damage..
Now when I look at it, this is actually stupid good.. No flyer can survive that... :-/

Well lets run the numbers.

10 attacks hitting on 4's, thats 5 hits. then you get to roll on the haywire table... then you can jink (since its not a close combat attack). I wouldn't call it an auto-kill but its definitely a threat.


though if they have a weapon platform, that means no Warlock (but does hold their cost down quite a bit).

The weapon platform is of infantry type so it only takes up 1 slot in the WS. Likewise with the Warlock. WS transport capacity is 12 therefore you can fit the whole party in a serpent.

[40kGamer]

The weapon platform is of infantry type so it only takes up 1 slot in the WS. Likewise with the Warlock. WS transport capacity is 12 therefore you can fit the whole party in a serpent.

I'm still waiting on my dex... curse the LE shipping. Did the platform loose bulky? I would *love* to be able to take both the platform and the Warlock in the serpent.

[Erik Setzer]

then you can jink (since its not a close combat attack).

Actually, no. It's called an "Attack" (capitalized, suggesting close combat style), and is not called a shooting attack. Jink specifically says you use it when targeted for a "shooting attack." Since it's not resolved as a shooting attack, Jink does nothing.

As an added bonus, it doesn't say that it prevents them from firing their weapons in the Shooting Phase, nor do they have to select the flyer/FMC as the target. You can swoop 18" over a flyer, nuke it, and then unload on some poor squad with 30 shots.

Excuse me, I need to go find some more Swooping Hawks...

- - - Updated - - -


I'm still waiting on my dex... curse the LE shipping. Did the platform loose bulky? I would *love* to be able to take both the platform and the Warlock in the serpent.

Holy smokes! I just looked at it, can't find Bulky listed under Special Rules or in the description of the platform in the wargear section. Its unit type is Infantry. So it seems you CAN fit a platform and Warlock in a Wave Serpent now.

Well. That just changes things some more...

[Power Klawz]

Well I guess that finally makes swooping hawks the flying murder-elves they were always meant to be.

[Erik Setzer]

They already held a special place in my heart for the load of shots they pumped out and the way I could assault a squadron of IG tanks and blow them all up (or even a Knight, because why not?). Now they're just that much more fun.

[40kGamer]

Holy smokes! I just looked at it, can't find Bulky listed under Special Rules or in the description of the platform in the wargear section. Its unit type is Infantry. So it seems you CAN fit a platform and Warlock in a Wave Serpent now.

Well. That just changes things some more...

That's really sweet! And the hawks are seriously cool this time around!

[Hal]

I think they need to errata the intercept rule so it affects only zooming targets.
First it doesn't make sense they can do the special attack on a hovering flyer but not on a regular skimmer.
Second, that wording lets them execute the special attack on FMCs who are in close combat for example (which doesn't make any sense)
And they should clarify if the target can jink or not (I already see much disagreement about that one..)

[Charon]

I think they need to errata the intercept rule so it affects only zooming targets.
First it doesn't make sense they can do the special attack on a hovering flyer but not on a regular skimmer.
Second, that wording lets them execute the special attack on FMCs who are in close combat for example (which doesn't make any sense)
And they should clarify if the target can jink or not (I already see much disagreement about that one..)

There are a lot of issues with sloppy wordings.
Just think about FMC jinking despite using their ground move as their jink is not mode reliant, just "FMC can jink".
Jink is also pretty weird as you can jink if a barrage weapon aims at you, but you cant jink if the barrage weapon happens to scatter on top of you.
The character/special weapon sniping of barrage weapons (which are highly inaccurate in terms of fluff) is the next one on the list and so on...
Would not bet on any FAQ... because FAQs cost money and do not produce money. Another rulebook on the other hand...

[Mr Mystery]

Quick psychic NooB question....

Jinx - do malediction powers stack? Because if they do, reducing Terminators down to a 4+ from a Conclave and Guardilock could be effing hilarious.

[Erik Setzer]

Quick psychic NooB question....

Jinx - do malediction powers stack? Because if they do, reducing Terminators down to a 4+ from a Conclave and Guardilock could be effing hilarious.

Not sure... The rulebook says different maledictions stack effects, but it doesn't say whether that means two of the same spell or two different spells, if there's even a necessary distinction. I think they *can* stack.

[Charistoph]

Isn't the standard rule that special rules cannot stack unless they explicitly state they do? And Maledictions are way to add bad Special Rules to a target.

[daboarder]

Quick psychic NooB question....

Jinx - do malediction powers stack? Because if they do, reducing Terminators down to a 4+ from a Conclave and Guardilock could be effing hilarious.

most places say no from the same source. IE, jinx doesnt stack with jinx, but WOULD stack with another hypothetical -1sv source

- - - Updated - - -


Not sure... The rulebook says different maledictions stack effects, but it doesn't say whether that means two of the same spell or two different spells, if there's even a necessary distinction. I think they *can* stack.

yeah typical GW ambiguous sod

[40kGamer]

Finally got my paws on the new and improved Eldar codex. It is every bit as scary and impressive as I expected. But while it changes a few things for the Eldar player, for better or worse what I think it really does is shift the way that all the other armies work.

>6th gave us hull points, flyers and reintroduced allies
>7th layered in Superheavies and a new version of D weapons
>Eldar Codex gives the Eldar players the tools to essentially delete any Deathstar or Superheavy in the game without breaking a sweat and without sacrificing the ability to fight other builds.

Eventually everyone else will find builds / playstyles that compensate for what the Eldar can actually do. Of course before things settle down we'll probably have half a dozen or more books to deal with so it's probably all going to change before it even gets started.

[Defenestratus]

>Eldar Codex gives the Eldar players the tools to essentially delete any Deathstar or Superheavy in the game without breaking a sweat and without sacrificing the ability to fight other builds.
gets started.

Unbelievably there are people out there that think that this is a bad thing.

"You mean, my unkillable game breaking unit that smashes face will - actually not be unkillable anymore?!?!? *GASP* *SHOCK*"

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed.

If you've linked all your choices to the meta, labouring under the misapprehension it's somehow a static concept, then yes, by all means, have a wee freak out.

[40kGamer]

Unbelievably there are people out there that think that this is a bad thing.

"You mean, my unkillable game breaking unit that smashes face will - actually not be unkillable anymore?!?!? *GASP* *SHOCK*"

100% agree. I'm in love with the ability to erase whatever horrible combo unit people can bring to the table. What actually gives me pause is the more balanced, higher model count builds. D weapons being special doesn't mean squat when you're taking a Guardsman off the table.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Right. And when people lament that the new book "breaks the metagame" - well, that doesn't mean there's suddenly no metagame, does it? It's just changed, like it does all the time. Like it did with flyers. Remember when people were wailing and gnashing teeth about the Heldrake? Then everyone else got their own flyer, or anti-air capability, and you just don't hear that complaint so much anymore.

D-weapons are part of the game now. Over the last 12 months quite a few things in regular codices have got them. I'm sure that'll continue. Right now the Eldar have a crazy amount, sure, and the most with any range, definitely. What will it look like after, say, the next five books, though? Whatever ends up being the case, the metagame changes and players adapt. It's fine to be annoyed or angry about it, but this always happens.

[Erik Setzer]

100% agree. I'm in love with the ability to erase whatever horrible combo unit people can bring to the table. What actually gives me pause is the more balanced, higher model count builds. D weapons being special doesn't mean squat when you're taking a Guardsman off the table.

And so along with the Wraiths, you bring Jetbikes with 30-40 shots per squad (actually likely 15-20, to break them up some for tactical flexibility), Guardians with all their shots, Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks who can trash their Valkyries while moving and then unload 30 shots on Guardsmen... Yeah, they've got ways to deal with big numbers. Or, heck, just run the Wraith in and charge a platoon and start stomping everything. Works for my Knight.

[Charon]

Unbelievably there are people out there that think that this is a bad thing.

"You mean, my unkillable game breaking unit that smashes face will - actually not be unkillable anymore?!?!? *GASP* *SHOCK*"

The problem is not that they destroy deathstars, but also any unit that is expensive and not nearly as strong as a deathstar with equal ease without sacrificing anything on their own.
It does not matter if they just obliterate a Draigostar or just a unit of 6 nurgle bikers, Thunderwolves with 5 characters or a squad of carnifex.
Which basically lets you build a Seerstar again while still having lots of weapons to deal with the enemy power units.

[Defenestratus]

And so along with the Wraiths, you bring Jetbikes with 30-40 shots per squad (actually likely 15-20, to break them up some for tactical flexibility), Guardians with all their shots, Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks who can trash their Valkyries while moving and then unload 30 shots on Guardsmen... Yeah, they've got ways to deal with big numbers. Or, heck, just run the Wraith in and charge a platoon and start stomping everything. Works for my Knight.

Well, the new Battle Robits from the Admech will do a better job at laying down Str 6 wounds at nearly the same point cost so I'm not sure where to file your complaint.

Guardians can be avoided easily, as can the hawks (seriously, you're complaining about a unit of T3, 4+ save dudes?)

Have you actually played a game against the new Eldar yet? I've played a game against my buddy who was using blood angels for the first time in his life and he came within a hairs-width of tabling me. If it wasn't for a lucky inv save on my war walker, his furioso would have just careened through my lines and tabled me on turn 5. Not to mention the fact that his damn assault marines with 2x flamers and a sanguinary priest didn't finally die until my last round of shooting while they racked up quite the impressive mount of dead guardians.

Yes Eldar are powerful. They should be. They die SUPER EASILY* though.

*Wraith constructs not included

[deinol]

I can say with certainty that Jetbikes die as soon as anyone shoots at them. They are great and I love them, but they are nowhere near as strong as marine bikes, and I don't remember marine bike lists breaking the tournament scene.

[Defenestratus]

I can say with certainty that Jetbikes die as soon as anyone shoots at them. They are great and I love them, but they are nowhere near as strong as marine bikes, and I don't remember marine bike lists breaking the tournament scene.

i see people complaining that they can't be killed because of their JSJ ability. Thats true for small squads. 10 however are going to be hard to JSJ effectively as the footprint for them is going to be huge - and in this day and age of massed deep strike and drop pods, getting to jetbikes to kill them shouldn't be a problem for most armies.

[40kGamer]

i see people complaining that they can't be killed because of their JSJ ability. Thats true for small squads. 10 however are going to be hard to JSJ effectively as the footprint for them is going to be huge - and in this day and age of massed deep strike and drop pods, getting to jetbikes to kill them shouldn't be a problem for most armies.

The bikes are really fast moving marines... and we all know how insanely difficult it is to kill basic marines.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, the new Battle Robits from the Admech will do a better job at laying down Str 6 wounds at nearly the same point cost so I'm not sure where to file your complaint.
*SNIPPITY SNIP*

I'm not "complaining," rather nothing that there's no reason to be worried about mass infantry just because D weapons aren't that great against them, as the Eldar have lots of other stuff to use.

And yeah, I think Swooping Hawks are awesome, and plan to use two squads when I can (probably have to get more, unless I can convince my brother to give me back the unpainted unit).

As for the AdMech robots, a unit of them costs 290 base, about the same as a Wraithknight, and the WK can turn its weapons on them. So that problem is solved.

You can make an Eldar army that can counter pretty much any army it comes across. I plan on doing that with my own Eldar (though it'll probably take making some purchases... I have no Wraithguard, Wraithknights, or Wave Serpents).

[Arkhan Land]

Sort of crazy seeing how the new Ad-Mech heavy MC choice will clock in with 6 T7 wounds and aside from a S6 dakkafest can also fire a torrent flamer, I think this D-nonsense makes sense with where they are going.

Brilliant buisness strategy

Step one fill out existing product lines and create new ones

Step Two - change game rules to make it so many many many more physical models get wiped clean out in a normal game

Step Three - Sell more models

Step Four - update apocalypse to be for battles 4k and more meaning a 3k battle is the new big-norm

Step Five - sell more models

Step Six - sell more models

[Charon]

They die SUPER EASILY* though.

Try to use transports maybe? I don't know what other armies you play, but eldar are in fact one of the more durable armies out there.
3+ armor across all good units, AV12 transports, artificial/enhanced cover saves, invul saves and force multipliers...
Sure they are no necrons, but they do outlive the average Space Marine by far.


and I don't remember marine bike lists breaking the tournament scene.

Good thing White Scars Bike lists where never a thing :rolleyes:

[deinol]

Good thing White Scars Bike lists where never a thing :rolleyes:

I remember talk about them, but after about a month it seemed like it was all talk. But I will admit I don't follow the tourney scene that closely. How many large tourneys did white scars win?

Edit: we were talking how easy bikes died. Last I checked you couldn't put jet bikes in wave serpents.

[Charon]

we were talking how easy bikes died.

Bike do not die easy. They are one of the most durable units in their point class...
They are 3 points more than a standard tactical marine. They are A LOT harder to kill than a tactical marine.
So please stop beeing deluded of how "easy" jetbikes die when everything else for the same points dies a lot faster.

[Power Klawz]

I'm not seeing how "everything else for the same points dies a lot faster." I mean look at imperial and chaos bikers, they are around the same cost and they don't die faster. In fact, they die slower. Which is the opposite of faster. Here's some mathhammer:

Average number of MEQ bolter shots to kill
1 guardian jetbike: 9.09
1 CSM biker: 13.51
1 Ork warbike: 9.09
1 tactical marine: 9.09

Let's use GEQ lasguns now
1 Guardian Jetbike: 17.86
1 CSM biker: 35.71
1 Ork Warbike: 23.81
1 tactical marine: 17.86

How about tau pulse rifles?
1 Guardian Jetbike: 9.09
1 CSM biker: 12.05
1 Ork Warbike: 8
1 Tactical Marine: 9.09

And lets use guardian shuriken catapults to round it out
1 Guardian Jetbike: 5.46
1 CSM biker: 6.67
1 Ork Warbike: 6.06
1 Tactical Marine: 5.46

So using this limited data set we can clearly see that Guardian jetbikes are not substantially more survivable against standard infantry weaponry than comparable options and, in fact, are generally less survivable. This is probably why they are costed as such.

Of course they are more "maneuverable" than the other options, but since their standard armament is shorter ranged this doesn't do them much good in terms of survivability, other than being better able to exploit terrain that blocks line of sight if its available, but given the vagaries of fate inherent to that propositions its hard to quantify or prove one way or the other. Definitely a good unit for a good price, but definitely not hard to kill either.

If we upgun them with higher ranged weapon options they become substantially more expensive, thus making the argument of survivability per cost unit moot. Chaos marine bikers have a lot of expensive options as well, but if we just take the mark of nurgle their survival rates skyrocket, and they're still cheaper per unit than upgunned jetbikes.

[Charon]

I thought eldar jetbikes were 18 points each

17 points.
Also, taking squads in consideration, the min. Squad of CSM bikes clocks in at 19 points higher than the windrider min. Squad (which is more than one additional windrider, or 2 scatter lasers)
Your table also shows that they are exactly as survivable as a Tac marine (and nobody would argue "they die soooo fast"). Further movementspeed is a huge factor for survivability - not only the jetbike move, but the 36" turboboost to get out of harms way, the Jetbike per se to get OVER terrain if you want to hide behind and not THROUGH.
Last but not least there is a lot more weapons and tbh most weapons pointed at mobile 3+ units tend to have a high S and low AP. Plasma (which is pretty common) is a big equalizer here, same as Grav and while Ork bikers seem to live longer in the world of tables, they tend to get targeted by Autocannons, Assault Cannons, Scatter lasers,.... a lot.

[Power Klawz]

When you take into account higher power weaponry all the survival rates start to inch closer to 0 however, unless cover is involved which is, of course, equally available to all units anyways, so there's no real point in comparing surival rates in cover, as only the relative toughness is pertinent, and even then with strength 7+ this becomes immaterial. Also all bike units can turbo boost out of harms way, so this is not a unique eldar survival mechanism and I felt it didn't bear mentioning.

It's also worth pointing out that your usage of quotation marks for the statement, "they die soooo fast," is misleading, since it would seem you're trying to attribute that quote to me and I never said it. I was simply refuting your claim that eldar jetbikes were substantially more survivable than equivalents in other armies, when in fact they are the opposite.

They are certainly no harder to kill than a tactical marine, other than being able to run away faster (which would preclude standard bikes from doing anything useful, like shooting.)

[Charon]

Turboboosting 12" is a bit different from boosting 36".
The statement was from 2 people that posted before you jumped in.


They die SUPER EASILY* though.

we were talking how easy bikes died.

You did compare them with units that are on a higher point cost (I do not even want to start with "Windriders are troops, everything else you mentioned is Fast Attack" because it adds no value to survivability.)
Windriders are basically extremely fast moving Space Marines with rending weapons. And I have yet to hear a person say "MEQ die SUPER EASY" and they are at the same points like Assault Marines. And yes, they are a lot more durable than assault marines.


They are certainly no harder to kill than a tactical marine, other than being able to run away faster (which would preclude standard bikes from doing anything useful, like shooting.)

Unless of course you hit them with an AP3 weapon, as the Tac can't jink.

[Mr Mystery]

I think the issue here is that they're no harder to job than a standard Marine - who really aren't that tricky to drop. Sheer weight of firepower works wonders.

I'm wary of Eldar Jetbikes, but not worried. They pack a helluva punch, but are relatively straight forward to swat out the air. If they haven't been upgraded, they need to close the range, putting them in potentially dangerous situations. Upgrade them and that goes away, but instead make themselves higher value targets for me.

[Power Klawz]

My entire point is why would you hit them with AP3 weapons when AP- will kill them quick enough? For starters, most AP3 weaponry is overcosted and therefore underutilized. And most people don't prioritize 3+ saves for their AP2 or 1 weapons, meaning that in most practical circumstances the jetbikes won't be jinking anyways, they'll just be getting shot at by lots of low AP bullets. Also Tactical marines can benefit from cover saves without having to impact their shooting in the next turn, they don't suffer dangerous terrain tests for entering area terrain and can still get cover saves for when and if they are targeted by AP3 or worse weaponry. Different applications and strengths, obviously, but trying to say that jink makes jetbikes more survivable than tac marines in any practical sense is somewhat disingenuous.

Also, it may just be our differing interpretations of the word "alot," but bikes are certainly not alot more survivable than assault marines in my estimation. Now, if by "alot" you mean "marginally so in very particular and uncommon circumstances," then yes, I would agree with you. However, I would still consider that a very silly usage of the term.

[Charon]

most AP3 weaponry is overcosted and therefore underutilized.

This is the first time that I hear plasma and grav is "underutilized" when grav spam and plasma spam are pretty valid against MEQ.

But ok.
I think we need more categories.
If Windriders die "super easy" as mentioned above, we will need "super-duper easy" for Orks, "super-duper-mega easy" for Guard and "omg-super-duper-mega easy" for nids.

Don't get me wrong I am with you there in a sterile environment. But the deluded view of some Eldar players here about how bad and fragile their army is compared to others is somewhat annoying.

[Power Klawz]

Plasma is ap2...

[Venomlust]

But the deluded view of some Eldar players here about how bad and fragile their army is compared to others is somewhat annoying.

Yes, seriously. Enough. The army is good, really good. Any hate other players have toward them is silly and misguided, but let's not pretend they didn't just get buffed like crazy.

[DarkLink]

I think the issue here is that they're no harder to job than a standard Marine - who really aren't that tricky to drop. Sheer weight of firepower works wonders.

I'm wary of Eldar Jetbikes, but not worried. They pack a helluva punch, but are relatively straight forward to swat out the air. If they haven't been upgraded, they need to close the range, putting them in potentially dangerous situations. Upgrade them and that goes away, but instead make themselves higher value targets for me.

Basic Marines are not difficult to deal with because they're relatively slow and have pretty crappy firepower for their points, not because they are fragile. Jetbikes outshoot every single power armor unit in the entire game, are extremely fast, and are inexpensive for what you get. That their relative weakness is their durability does not make them particularly fragile, nor does it not mean they aren't obscenely good.

[Da Gargoyle]

I just couldn't read through the whole 13 pages cause I have people breathing down my neck for the computer. :(

Just a quick observation on the Holo-fields, sorry if it has been mentioned. I don't think the change is that bad from jink/cover to invulnerable, though the odds are longer. The inv' save will work if you are being assaulted, which jink definitely did not. If you have to use it, there will be no modification to your shooting next turn and ignores cover still has to beat a save.

[DarkLink]

Is it a flat invuln, or just against shooting?

[Learn2Eel]

Is it a flat invuln, or just against shooting?

It's an all-purpose 5+ invulnerable save, the main reason why I really don't mind the change.

[ShadowcatX]

Jetbikes outshoot every single power armor unit in the entire game

O RLY? I assume you would never ever make totally baseless accusations and have math to back this statement up? Please, share it with us.

[Arkhan Land]

I think he's mostly right A fully SC-ed out WR Sqaudron (81 points) is going to get 9 S6 shots at 36"

Versus your standard SM Sqaud is going to get off 9 bolter shots only within 12" upgrade as you will with heavy weapons which cant move and shoot or special weapons that still have a similar range.
So I guess closest thing is devastator where you can get 12 Heavy Bolter Shots, lower strength but better AP but that's 110 points and suddenly your windrider sqaudron grows a bike bigger...

SM-Bike units can come close with mobility and range + relentless for its heavy weapons and to top it off theyre the good ole' T5 and S4 when they get into it but then again that sqaud is going to cost a lot more

you really have to go to the centurions to get more shots and the price is way over the WR's

im going to try and think about this today while i go move some crap

[ShadowcatX]

I think he's mostly right A fully SC-ed out WR Sqaudron (81 points) is going to get 9 S6 shots at 36"

Versus your standard SM Sqaud is going to get off 9 bolter shots only within 12" upgrade as you will with heavy weapons which cant move and shoot or special weapons that still have a similar range.
So I guess closest thing is devastator where you can get 12 Heavy Bolter Shots, lower strength but better AP but that's 110 points and suddenly your windrider sqaudron grows a bike bigger...

SM-Bike units can come close with mobility and range + relentless for its heavy weapons and to top it off theyre the good ole' T5 and S4 when they get into it but then again that sqaud is going to cost a lot more

you really have to go to the centurions to get more shots and the price is way over the WR's

im going to try and think about this today while i go move some crap

Truth is, it is entirely dependent upon what you are shooting. 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi-grav are going to do worlds more damage to terminators, riptides, and wraith knights or AV 12+, than an equivalent points in jetbikes will. OtOH, flamer, heavy flamer, and combi-flamer have exceptional ability to damage T3, 5+ save dudes in 4+ save cover.

My point was that blanket statements like that are utterly worthless and only serve as hate against an army and to stir up hate against an army.

[Mr Mystery]

All horses for courses and different strokes for different folks.

Wind riders pack a punch, but cannot take it in return. As per my earlier example, basic, they're a pain but manageable for your opponent. Packing lots of upgrades, and they become a choice target in the early game.

[Path Walker]

The problem is the assumption from those crying foul is that Windriders aren't easy to kill, but they really are, you move them badly and they get caught by the wrong thing, or pretty much anything, and they'll die easy enough, they're T4 and 3+ with 1 Wound, their units are big enough to absorb losses.

[Defenestratus]

LOL Recasters are running pre-sale specials on jetbikes.

Buy them in bulk and you get a better price.

Pretty smart.

Next GT you go to, scratch some paint off of those jetbikes to make sure they're not recasts!!! :P

[Arkhan Land]

Truth is, it is entirely dependent upon what you are shooting. 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi-grav are going to do worlds more damage to terminators, riptides, and wraith knights or AV 12+, than an equivalent points in jetbikes will. OtOH, flamer, heavy flamer, and combi-flamer have exceptional ability to damage T3, 5+ save dudes in 4+ save cover.

My point was that blanket statements like that are utterly worthless and only serve as hate against an army and to stir up hate against an army.

A combi grav is nice but then your down to two grav-guns for the rest of the game so its really a turn of unloading, max range of 12 inch move then 18 inch shot, versus a 12 inch move running with fleet, and then 36 inch shot, or the ability to use the run move to try and get back out of range after shooting. The big tough targets are easty fodder for many other specialized eldar units, versus SM units kitted out with Gravs/Melta Guns/Combis are more on my view of specializing units when I put together my army. Unless I pay the Bike-Tain tax Im limited in how many bikes I can take as troops. This is something I really hope possibly gets worked on the SM codex, the ability to take 5 man bike squads as troops sans Cap'n.

and here where for me it gets tough to compare those two. Two armies each with an equal number of these sqauds engages: The Bikers will wound on a 5+ to the Windriders, the Windriders will wound on 3+ on the bikers. the bikers get better armour but, and this is also assuming of course one cant get the drop on the other, easier done for the jetbikes with 48" effective range compared to the 30" range of the marines.

as a person who fields bikes with SM and eldar jetbikes its a lament of mine how effective they are mostly because in the rine codex fielding as many bike sqauds as I want to requires either sacrificing a fast slot or taking a captain on a bike in addition to an HQ choice like a librarian that I view as being more needed in todays gaming enviroment, as supposed to being able to field some windriders outright no strings attatched with three SC-ed units clocking in at 243 points leaving me all my other options still open.


one more sort of stranger thought: if the marines can get the drop on the unit they bike up on, at a 24" effective range, scouts bikes with launchers cost 69 points, and although you have two dudes firing at BS3 its still two shots S6 AP3 which is a much more damaging prospect than the Cannons, and unlike the Combi-grav will keep going till games end. though once again it requires dedicated fast biking or the bike leadership tax, and for them using infiltrate to outflank getting the drop can be fairly easy.

btw i realize I said get the drop, a lot by which I mean using tactical cunning to avoid a round of incoming fire

and im not trying to provoke any hate, in case you didnt read my post I dont think it had anything I view as being any sort of a hateful or negative tone. I think each and every one of the codices I have is going to get some awesome retarded crap and im somewhat excited for it, im already sort of mesemerized by in one week the arrival of several new gattling weapons and torrent weapons in normal 40k so I guess maybe if you have such concerns/negative attitude you can realize from writing tone when its there or not.

[ShadowcatX]

Which recasters? Zuchani? (Or however you spell his name...)

[Erik Setzer]

LOL Recasters are running pre-sale specials on jetbikes.

Buy them in bulk and you get a better price.

Pretty smart.

Next GT you go to, scratch some paint off of those jetbikes to make sure they're not recasts!!! :P

And if they aren't recasts, you've damaged someone's model for... what?

[Defenestratus]

And if they aren't recasts, you've damaged someone's model for... what?

It was tongue in cheek Erik, thus the colonpee :P

Lighten up Francis!!!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

You know, I realize the dex is really good, but I keep going back to how powerful drop pod lists are right now. And the fact that blood Angels have such a good counter to everything Eldar. I'm not that worried. Double hand flamer sergeants with heavy flamer and regular flamer or ASM double hand flamer with double regular flamer say "hi..."

And honestly sternguard are still one of the best answers to anything. Their versatility is so amazing, I mean dragonfire bolts just mow down guardians, and combi-flamers/grav/melta can take out all the scary-scary. Plus they have centurion grav-gun allies. It really depends on the TOs missions though.

It'll be really interesting to see how the tournament scene plays out. For us narrative boys and girls though, I really don't think we look at this as doom and gloom. /shrugs/

[Erik Setzer]

It was tongue in cheek Erik, thus the colonpee :P

Lighten up Francis!!!

Some people might take it serious... I don't care if someone's using recasts. I don't want to use them because too often there's issues with them. But if other people buy them and then GW loses out on sales because people have a problem with GW's prices, well, hey, maybe GW learns. Probably not, though, they'll just jack up the prices to cover the difference (clearly not working, but eh, I'm kind of apathetic about it at this moment).

On a semi-related note, I would have thought GW making a Warlock and Farseer on jetbike would have meant CH couldn't sell those, but I guess since they got there first they can keep selling them. Won't be useful for long, since GW *did* change over their basic Jetbike design. And most people would just rather buy the GW model (less issues with "Is this tourney-legal?").

[DarkLink]

O RLY? I assume you would never ever make totally baseless accusations and have math to back this statement up? Please, share it with us.

If you can think of one, feel free to share. I guess you could argue that a command squad on bikes with grav guns is a respectable comparison due to the relatively large number of AP2 shots, but they can't sit back and jump in and out of terrain to stay safe, and they're a fair bit more expensive per model.

I mean, compare to most power armor units. They're mostly all variations on a bunch of bolters with a couple melta/plasma/grav weapons a unit, depending on the codex, averaging from about 20ppm for cheaper units like Tactical Marines to 25+ for fully equipped command squads/veterans. Since you're limited to bolters and four heavy/special weapons max, it's hard to argue that any of these 'standard' units can get even remotely close to the level of firepower jetbikes have. What's better, a bolter or a scatter laser? A meltagun, or 40 Str 6 shots? Sure, Jetbikes can't hurt AV13, but who needs them to do that when you have so much ranged Str D? The argument of 'but it can't hurt a Land Raider' is inane.

Then you start to get into some more exotic units. Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters have a lot of shots, but they cost as much per model as the jetbikes, are completely static if you want to use your Salvo weapons, and you get Str 4 shooting instead of Str 6. Same applies to the DA Salvo banner. Grey Knights get Storm Bolters and psycannons, but cost significantly more per model and don't get nearly as many high strength shots. Thousand Sons get AP3, but if you do the math Jetbikes kill more MEQ than they do, and TkSons only get worse shooting at anything other than 3+ armor out in the open.

Wolf Guard can spam combi-weapons like crazy, so you can get a bunch of plasma shots, for one round of shooting. That is pretty nasty, and I think that's probably about the closest and cheapest you can get in terms of sheer firepower. They're more expensive than jetbikes, though, and only get one single round of nasty shooting. And if their target is in cover, the Jetbikes will actually do more wounds than they will if it's anything other than 2+ armor.

But, at this point I'm running out of ideas for ways to maximize firepower out of a power armor unit, so I obviously haven't put enough thought into this for anything I've said to be a valid argument. I'm sure you'll find an obvious example I'm missing that I've never seen any of the top tournament players run at major events. They must be too busy playing Centstars with Fire Raptors and Sicarans and allies to realize just how much firepower a humble Tactical squad brings to bear :rolleyes:.

[daboarder]

I for one would like to add a resounding

"OH SNAP!"

to Darklinks post

[ShadowcatX]

If you can think of one, feel free to share. I guess you could argue that a command squad on bikes with grav guns is a respectable comparison due to the relatively large number of AP2 shots, but they can't sit back and jump in and out of terrain to stay safe, and they're a fair bit more expensive per model.

I mean, compare to most power armor units. They're mostly all variations on a bunch of bolters with a couple melta/plasma/grav weapons a unit, depending on the codex, averaging from about 20ppm for cheaper units like Tactical Marines to 25+ for fully equipped command squads/veterans. Since you're limited to bolters and four heavy/special weapons max, it's hard to argue that any of these 'standard' units can get even remotely close to the level of firepower jetbikes have. What's better, a bolter or a scatter laser? A meltagun, or 40 Str 6 shots? Sure, Jetbikes can't hurt AV13, but who needs them to do that when you have so much ranged Str D? The argument of 'but it can't hurt a Land Raider' is inane.

Then you start to get into some more exotic units. Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters have a lot of shots, but they cost as much per model as the jetbikes, are completely static if you want to use your Salvo weapons, and you get Str 4 shooting instead of Str 6. Same applies to the DA Salvo banner. Grey Knights get Storm Bolters and psycannons, but cost significantly more per model and don't get nearly as many high strength shots. Thousand Sons get AP3, but if you do the math Jetbikes kill more MEQ than they do, and TkSons only get worse shooting at anything other than 3+ armor out in the open.

Wolf Guard can spam combi-weapons like crazy, so you can get a bunch of plasma shots, for one round of shooting. That is pretty nasty, and I think that's probably about the closest and cheapest you can get in terms of sheer firepower. They're more expensive than jetbikes, though, and only get one single round of nasty shooting. And if their target is in cover, the Jetbikes will actually do more wounds than they will if it's anything other than 2+ armor.

But, at this point I'm running out of ideas for ways to maximize firepower out of a power armor unit, so I obviously haven't put enough thought into this for anything I've said to be a valid argument. I'm sure you'll find an obvious example I'm missing that I've never seen any of the top tournament players run at major events. They must be too busy playing Centstars with Fire Raptors and Sicarans and allies to realize just how much firepower a humble Tactical squad brings to bear :rolleyes:.

Two grav bikes with a sergeant and a combi-grav. Maybe try tossing on an attack bike with a multi-melta. If you could run the math against marines, termies, riptides, and wraith knights and report which unit has more fire power I'd love to hear it.

And just as an aside, I love how when you mention the most powerful units you can think of, 2/3 of them are forgeworld, and specifically Horus Herasy. Good thing FW is balanced, and totally not O.P.

[daboarder]

maybe people would listen to you shadow if you stopped completely ignoring key aspects of the game, like movement, range and others in your attempts to talk down a unit that has LONG been considered a staple of eldar and never considered a week unit getting one fo the biggest buffs in the games history

[DarkLink]

His condescending attitude is a real plus, too.


You never see grav bikers run like that, as they need 5 models to be troops. If you want pure grav, you need a command squad, which I mention. The issue with grav weapons is their lack of flexibility. They're really good at killing Riptides and Terminators, and worthless against Imperial Knights. Scatter laser jetbikes have their own gaps, but those are covered by the rest of the Eldar army far better than SMs tend to cover their weaknesses. Who cares about killing heavy armor when you can spam Str D?

As to forgeworld, those two units are very good, but far from OP. They're mainly common because the SM codex has pretty bad internal balance, and they cover major gaps in the SM arsenal. Ignores Jink is half the reason to run a Sicaran, and without Wave Serpent spam you will see a lot fewer of them. Considering how small the impact forgeworld has had on the west coast meta, the idea that it's any more OP than anything in standard 40k is laughable.

[davel]

I have spotted some oddities with some of the in dependant characters.

Barbarity does not have intercept
Karandras does not have stalker
Maughan ra does not get the reaper launcher

The autarch has gone from his original incarnation of uber aspect warrior leader to (for certain aspects) a complete numpty who also turned up. For banshee he looses them acrobatic (wait for me). Scorpions the extra camo (could you not work a little more green into your uniform). Avengers there defend over watch ability (.....no i can't see the logic behind that one). It is also if a correctly equips it is unclear if he can use or looses warp spiders their flicker jump.
Other aspects don't loose their abilities.

Dave l

- - - Updated - - -

I meant reaper range finder

I have spotted some oddities with some of the in dependant characters.

Barbarity does not have intercept
Karandras does not have stalker
Maughan ra does not get the reaper launcher

The autarch has gone from his original incarnation of uber aspect warrior leader to (for certain aspects) a complete numpty who also turned up. For banshee he looses them acrobatic (wait for me). Scorpions the extra camo (could you not work a little more green into your uniform). Avengers there defend over watch ability (.....no i can't see the logic behind that one). It is also if a correctly equips it is unclear if he can use or looses warp spiders their flicker jump.
Other aspects don't loose their abilities.

Dave l

[Defenestratus]

I have spotted some oddities with some of the in dependant characters.

Barbarity does not have intercept
Karandras does not have stalker
Maughan ra does not get the reaper launcher

The autarch has gone from his original incarnation of uber aspect warrior leader to (for certain aspects) a complete numpty who also turned up. For banshee he looses them acrobatic (wait for me). Scorpions the extra camo (could you not work a little more green into your uniform). Avengers there defend over watch ability (.....no i can't see the logic behind that one). It is also if a correctly equips it is unclear if he can use or looses warp spiders their flicker jump.
Other aspects don't loose their abilities.

Dave l

- - - Updated - - -

I meant reaper range finder

Interesting. I emailed GW about the PL's as it really does seem that they should have those abilities. Especially Baharroth!

[40kGamer]

You never see grav bikers run like that, as they need 5 models to be troops. If you want pure grav, you need a command squad, which I mention. The issue with grav weapons is their lack of flexibility. They're really good at killing Riptides and Terminators, and worthless against Imperial Knights. Scatter laser jetbikes have their own gaps, but those are covered by the rest of the Eldar army far better than SMs tend to cover their weaknesses. Who cares about killing heavy armor when you can spam Str D

The jetbikes would actually be quite liveable if it wasn't for the heavy weapons for all option! Why they went away from the 1 in 3 I have no idea... It makes the jetbikes actually better than War Walkers at doing the mass Scatter spam. I ran EQ PV jetbikes vs a SM Command bike squad with Grav and equivalent Scatterbikes simply murder them.

- - - Updated - - -


Interesting. I emailed GW about the PL's as it really does seem that they should have those abilities. Especially Baharroth!

Good luck getting that answer. They've been pretty unresponsive for a while now.

[Defenestratus]

The jetbikes would actually be quite liveable if it wasn't for the heavy weapons for all option! Why they went away from the 1 in 3 I have no idea... It makes the jetbikes actually better than War Walkers at doing the mass Scatter spam. I ran EQ PV jetbikes vs a SM Command bike squad with Grav and equivalent Scatterbikes simply murder them.



I'm the reason.

I'm the reason why made it so every bike could be upgraded. Because yousee I already had like 30 jetbikes of different configurations. If the rule was 1-in-3 can upgrade, all I'd need is what... 2 boxes of the new models to make it work? However, with it being every model in the unit and making it cost reasonably to do so, its GW's hope that I just go ahead and buy 10 boxes of the ****ers to throw out my old models.

Its a blatant case of rules pushing models which they've always done, but between this book and the necrons codex, I think you can see that GW isn't really trying to be shy about that fact anymore.

[ShadowcatX]

His condescending attitude is a real plus, too.


You never see grav bikers run like that, as they need 5 models to be troops. If you want pure grav, you need a command squad, which I mention. The issue with grav weapons is their lack of flexibility. They're really good at killing Riptides and Terminators, and worthless against Imperial Knights. Scatter laser jetbikes have their own gaps, but those are covered by the rest of the Eldar army far better than SMs tend to cover their weaknesses. Who cares about killing heavy armor when you can spam Str D?

As to forgeworld, those two units are very good, but far from OP. They're mainly common because the SM codex has pretty bad internal balance, and they cover major gaps in the SM arsenal. Ignores Jink is half the reason to run a Sicaran, and without Wave Serpent spam you will see a lot fewer of them. Considering how small the impact forgeworld has had on the west coast meta, the idea that it's any more OP than anything in standard 40k is laughable.

First, cut the hypocrisy, my tone wasn't half what yours was, and has been in general.

Second, you said nothing about scatter bikes putting out more damage than troops choices, you said power armor. Don't change your argument when proven wrong. Ditto the rest of the army argument, you singled out jetbikes, and that is what I'm calling you on.

Third, there are tons of reasons something OP may not be effecting the meta in a huge way. But, when you listed the three things every space marine player was taking, 2 of the three are forge world and horus herasy specifically. Is there a non-power army that also fields that much forgeworld in every tournament list?

[Houghten]

Second, you said nothing about scatter bikes putting out more damage than troops choices,

Indeed he didn't. He said that nobody takes Marine bikes except as Troops choices, thus excluding the every-member-has-grav three-man units from consideration on the grounds that they're never taken (which, given you're going on about tournament lists now, seems entirely fair).


Is there a non-power army that also fields that much forgeworld in every tournament list?

Is there a non-Marine army that has the option to? Half the IG stuff is plastic now, Dark Eldar have two skimmers and one flier that should have been retired in 2009, Eldar have a few things that mostly look pretty, Ork stuff is... well, it's Ork stuff...

[daboarder]

Indeed he didn't. He said that nobody takes Marine bikes except as Troops choices, thus excluding the every-member-has-grav three-man units from consideration on the grounds that they're never taken (which, given you're going on about tournament lists now, seems entirely fair).



Is there a non-Marine army that has the option to? Half the IG stuff is plastic now, Dark Eldar have two skimmers and one flier that should have been retired in 2009, Eldar have a few things that mostly look pretty, Ork stuff is... well, it's Ork stuff...

Nids almost ALWAYS run malanthropes if they are allowed.

[The Girl]

Quick reminder: we're talking toy soldiers. Keep the comments to the game and not about other users.

[40kGamer]

I'm the reason.

I'm the reason why made it so every bike could be upgraded. Because yousee I already had like 30 jetbikes of different configurations. If the rule was 1-in-3 can upgrade, all I'd need is what... 2 boxes of the new models to make it work? However, with it being every model in the unit and making it cost reasonably to do so, its GW's hope that I just go ahead and buy 10 boxes of the ****ers to throw out my old models.

Its a blatant case of rules pushing models which they've always done, but between this book and the necrons codex, I think you can see that GW isn't really trying to be shy about that fact anymore.

Ack! You should have told them us long timers would have bought the new bikes regardless! Might have avoided some of the unpleasantness! :)

[DarkLink]

Indeed he didn't. He said that nobody takes Marine bikes except as Troops choices, thus excluding the every-member-has-grav three-man units from consideration on the grounds that they're never taken (which, given you're going on about tournament lists now, seems entirely fair).

Right, you mainly see two types of bikes in SM bike lists; troops and command squads. Command squads get more grav guns, which is why I mentioned them in my earlier post and not bike troops. Granted, I didn't actually check the points costs to see which gets more grav shots per point, but I'm pretty sure it's the command squad.




Is there a non-Marine army that has the option to? Half the IG stuff is plastic now, Dark Eldar have two skimmers and one flier that should have been retired in 2009, Eldar have a few things that mostly look pretty, Ork stuff is... well, it's Ork stuff...

Eldar has a couple options, but they seem rare, which I find odd because Hornets are brutally good. The Lynx and Warp Hunters had their moments in the sun, but the Warp Hunter rules were revised and the Lynx has ranged D so it's probably gone. Daboarder mentioned Malanthropes, which are extremely common. Thudd Guns and Sabre Defense Platforms are fairly common in IG, though less so now that Skyfire has been nerfed and Wyverns out-wound Thudd Guns. I'm sure there are a couple units scattered across other armies that matter (notably, CSM also get Sicarans and Fire Raptors along with a lot of chaos versions of the other SM forgeworld toys), but when it comes to meta-changing units, Forgeworld doesn't have many.

I'll also note that Fire Raptors and Sicarans are awesome models, which certainly doesn't hurt their popularity.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So I just realized you can equip grav-tanks, and vypers with the EML that has starhawk missiles standard. Giving your model 3 different types of shots for a relatively cheap upgrade. Yet Dark reapers don't get the option. Sad elves are sad. Which kinda asks the question, would you take an exarch with a DL with Autocannon or Icarus cannon with the Dark Reapers since they have so much range and the exarch gets fast shot?

[Defenestratus]

Good luck getting that answer. They've been pretty unresponsive for a while now.

Seems that they don't know themselves:


Hello [Defenestratus],

Thanks for writing in to us. I'm not sure if the listings are correct, or if these rules were missing in error, so I'll submit this to the Errata/ FAQ channel. If you have any other questions, then you can submit them directly by emailing [email protected].

David Monroe
Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

[Thaldin]

I was just noticing that this weekend about the Phoenix Lords as well. Glad you sent them the email, too bad the answer was "unknown".

[40kGamer]

Seems that they don't know themselves:

Lovely. Every email I've sent to the FAQ address gives an auto response that they will address it in future FAQs... which have proven to be rather infrequent at best.

[Houghten]

Same, only when said future FAQs have come out there's been no sign of my questions.

[40kGamer]

Same, only when said future FAQs have come out there's been no sign of my questions.

Sadly, the same has been true of any questions I've asked.

[Da Gargoyle]

So I just realized you can equip grav-tanks, and vypers with the EML that has starhawk missiles standard. Giving your model 3 different types of shots for a relatively cheap upgrade. Yet Dark reapers don't get the option. Sad elves are sad. Which kinda asks the question, would you take an exarch with a DL with Autocannon or Icarus cannon with the Dark Reapers since they have so much range and the exarch gets fast shot?

I thought it was reasonable for the starhawk missiles to become a fixture of the EML without additional cost. But I was surprised to see the upgrade come down in points cost also. I think it would have been just as reasonable to retain the upgrade cost listed in the last dex. The Dark Reapers do get the Starhawk option through the Exarch who can take an EML instead of the reaper, which would be my choice now. Sad elves not so sad, but meaner.

Not sure what a "DL" or Icarus cannon is?

[Da Gargoyle]

I have spotted some oddities with some of the in dependant characters.

Barbarity does not have intercept
Karandras does not have stalker
Maughan ra does not get the reaper launcher

The autarch has gone from his original incarnation of uber aspect warrior leader to (for certain aspects) a complete numpty who also turned up. For banshee he looses them acrobatic (wait for me). Scorpions the extra camo (could you not work a little more green into your uniform). Avengers there defend over watch ability (.....no i can't see the logic behind that one). It is also if a correctly equips it is unclear if he can use or looses warp spiders their flicker jump.
Other aspects don't loose their abilities.

Dave l

Having read this I reviewed the previous dex and noted the same situation applied. Unit specific traits were not necessarily applicable to the PL's. And lets face it, Does Morgan Ra need a RRF when he has BS 7?

Karandras might not have Stalker but Hunters Strike makes up for it in my book, move on the board from any side guaranteed second turn is brutal.

Barbarity doesn't have intercept but it does not negate it for the rest of the team and he brings his own Shiny buffs. (Never really paid attention to feather benders before this dex)

As for the Autarch, he has always had a limited impact on the units he joins. The rules for an IC state he does not transfer benefits or acquire benefits when joining a unit unless the special rule specifically states he does, so it is nothing new. Having said that, if I put a Warp Generator pack on his back, I'ld confirm with my opponent that this would tie him in with the Flickerjump, not that I had ever teamed him with Spyders. I usually teamed him with Scorpions, or Storm Guardians for that extra fusion weapon, and even Dragons for a little counter assault.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I thought it was reasonable for the starhawk missiles to become a fixture of the EML without additional cost. But I was surprised to see the upgrade come down in points cost also. I think it would have been just as reasonable to retain the upgrade cost listed in the last dex. The Dark Reapers do get the Starhawk option through the Exarch who can take an EML instead of the reaper, which would be my choice now. Sad elves not so sad, but meaner.

Not sure what a "DL" or Icarus cannon is?

DL = defense line with the gun emplacements. I know that the Exarch gets the EML as an upgrade, I just Meant the reaper launchers didn't get it. But you might be right, thinking about it; having the Exarch with 3 weapon options with same range as the squad is a great option. And I really think for almost 10 points less and 12" more range with 3 types of shots vs 2 types with Ap-3 the EML is the better choice overall.

[acprince]

you guys are making me feel bad about fielding my Land Raider Achilles, and plasma talon dark angles :)