Eldar: organisation changes? could they affect the effectiveness of The eldar?

[Brother Claudio]

One thing that has always bugged me is the Eldar Guardians. The supposed farmers of a dying race are essentially must takes in a game of 40k due to the Force organisation chart. And whilst I realise fluff will not always dictate how the game plays. Every eldar player I've ever played against has Brought these guys in their army. And yet these guys are only meant to be deployed in the direst of circumstance.

So with the new craft world's codex coming out and D weapons popping up far too much for my liking and jet bikes getting the scatter laser upgrade. I want to ask you all whether changing the Eldar force organisation would help make them less intimidating/more balanced?

Hear me out. Guardians have to be troops choices. They make no sense in any other category. However in the game of 40k this makes no sense. As you have to take troops if you are playing with the CAD and for most formations too. So I realise it would be too much to change the entire force organisation thing or move the guardians to another slot. BUT. What if the eldar alone followed a different organisation chart. For example the troops choices are optional slots for them and then you must take 2 units from elites/fast attck/heavys choices. Not 2 from each slot but 2 from the choices these slots give. So for me Dire avengers would move to elites and the only ting in the troops section is guardians and wind riders. Furthermore I feel like Eldar should be limited to 1-2 selections of Guardians because let's face it they shouldn't be there anyway. And G-Dubz could always make a last stand type formation where you can take more guardians.

The reason for this thinking is that I know a few eldar guys and gals that will play a serpent/windrider/wraithguard/wraith knight list.
That is so frightening and utterly boring to myself. Because not only are D weapons so devastating, I won't go in to why because we all know. But then along with that you have the survivability of the wave serpent and the utter devastation of the wind riders now getting to take scatter lasers. 4 str 6 shots per jet bike... and that's just the jet bikes shooting.
I don't know exact points but 1500pts could buy you close to this:
Farseer on jet bike with mantle
Wraithguard with D scythes in wave serpent
2 x 10 man guardian squads in wave serpents
10 man windrider all with scatter lasers
3 man windrider all with scatter lasers
3 man windrider all with scatter lasers
Oh and the wraith knight.

The jet bikes alone can put out 64 str 6 shots a turn.

It just feels like the eldar got an auto win button. Even my best lists will be unlikely to see turn 5 against lists like the ones above. There is far too much fire power and instadeath/no saves allowed shooting going on.

So again if the guardians where less likely to be seen on the table forcing eldar players to take more expensive elites choices in the form of the (I feel) fantastic aspect warriors, therefore I feel lessening the bang for buck the eldar get at the moment. Would that make a difference? I can deal with the D weapons...no I can't really but the scatter laser jet bikes on top just seems waaaay OP.

Let me know if you think I'm chatting utter rubbish or you agree or you have a different idea because I feel like the eldar update has just made them by far the best army.

[Badtucker]

D sythes are ok.. .not as good as the net says.
-1 on the D chart means that they need to roll a 3+ do kill anything ( and cant ever get a 6 result.)
knight is the only problem.. but even it can be dealt with nicely.... just insure you have a nice swaith of lascannons or so on with you :D

Bikes are actually much better not using the scatter lasers.... shurikan weapons is where its at, shred once a game and constant bladestorm is better (when using windrider hoast).

[Charon]

-1 on the D chart means that they need to roll a 3+ do kill anything ( and cant ever get a 6 result.)

which still means you kill a whole squad of 3 carnifex on a 3+ as they still have AP2, ignore cover, ignore FnP and cause D3 wounds.
You really do not need the 6 which would only add ignore invul saves and does D6+6 wounds.

EVERYTHING that has a high T, multiple wounds or an AV just melts.

[Path Walker]

Guardians are troops because they're the most common type of troop available, Aspect Warriors are rare amongst the Eldar, it takes a lot of dedication to devote yourself to the Path of the Warrior. Most of a warhost would be Guardians, thats always been the case.

Eldar have gone through some orginisational changes and it works more around Guardians, using this Detachement your choices are off, you need another Farseer for the Guardians, 2 Vyper Squadrons, another guardian unit, a Warwalker and a Vaul's Wrath battery.

These new Detachment types are great, if you stick to 1500ish games, they make the force fluffier.

[Brother Claudio]

Guardians are troops because they're the most common type of troop available, Aspect Warriors are rare amongst the Eldar, it takes a lot of dedication to devote yourself to the Path of the Warrior. Most of a warhost would be Guardians, thats always been the case.

Eldar have gone through some orginisational changes and it works more around Guardians, using this Detachement your choices are off, you need another Farseer for the Guardians, 2 Vyper Squadrons, another guardian unit, a Warwalker and a Vaul's Wrath battery.

These new Detachment types are great, if you stick to 1500ish games, they make the force fluffier.

I was just spit balling. And I obviously don't know the fluff as well as you. But I've always known them as farmers and find it odd they are so prevalent.
Secondly my list was an example of the fire power eldar can churn out in one turn and how devastating it can be.

[Path Walker]

Fluffwise, Guardians are made up of all those on the Craftworld not on the Path of the Warrior or the Path of the Seer, in human terms, they're everyone who isn't (or is no longer) a professional soldier or leader joins in a militia when needed, to fight for whatever cause they're needed for, Eldar are a dying race and the Craftworld Eldar will put aside everything to follow what the Farseers think is best for the galaxy. Most Eldar will be on the Paths of farmers, artisans, artists, bonesingers or whatever, not the Path of the Warrior, but the Warriors are too rare to be an effective fighting force.

The list has a lot of firepower, but its fragile, if caught out, it can be destroyed by most other armies, you have to keep it moving to take advantage of cover and out of line of sight.

[Badtucker]

thats true... thats why... if you play nids... you send in the gaunts. or just dont let them get close.

[Charon]

thats true... thats why... if you play nids... you send in the gaunts. or just dont let them get close.

Happens to everything, not just nids.
Grotesques, Talos, Bloodcrushers,...
And it is damn hard to "not let them get close" if they sit in one of the most mobile transports in the game.



I was just spit balling. And I obviously don't know the fluff as well as you. But I've always known them as farmers and find it odd they are so prevalent.
Secondly my list was an example of the fire power eldar can churn out in one turn and how devastating it can be.

Just ignore Pathwalker he is trolling as usual. Im glad that I did put him on ignore half a year ago... sadly I can still see you quoting his bs.
You are right about the guardians, they are on another path (but were on the path of the warrior previously in their lives) and are just called upon in times of great need.
The first to repond are the aspect shrines which are numberous, the most prominent of them are the Dire Avengers. Nearly every Eldar gets on the path of the Warrior at one point or another in their lives.
Only if the number of Aspects are not enough to deal with the threat at hand (Craftworld under attack, huge planetary campain,..) they call in the Guardians.

[Brother Claudio]

Fluffwise, Guardians are made up of all those on the Craftworld not on the Path of the Warrior or the Path of the Seer, in human terms, they're everyone who isn't (or is no longer) a professional soldier or leader joins in a militia when needed, to fight for whatever cause they're needed for, Eldar are a dying race and the Craftworld Eldar will put aside everything to follow what the Farseers think is best for the galaxy. Most Eldar will be on the Paths of farmers, artisans, artists, bonesingers or whatever, not the Path of the Warrior, but the Warriors are too rare to be an effective fighting force.

The list has a lot of firepower, but its fragile, if caught out, it can be destroyed by most other armies, you have to keep it moving to take advantage of cover and out of line of sight.

That's true and fairs.

It is a fragile list however most people play with a lot of terrain and with the eldar manoeuvrability I don't see that as an issue and also there are few armies that could reply with the same fire power.
My BA and DE armies would struggle massively against list like that. They always have. But then maybe I'm just not as tactically majestic as I imagine I am.
For instance if the eldar player goes first. The shooting you can put out will almost certainly ruin the heavy guns of the opposition and that's just first turn. Argh maybe I'm just being too pessimistic.

[Sonikgav]

Im gonna wait to see the exacts of the new book before i cry foul but im hoping this whole Guardian thing hasnt ripped the heart out of my Iyanden Ghost List. Ive only got 20 Wraithguard as is, i dont wanna have to rip more out to fit in mandatory Guardians.

It does say '3 types of Guardian' though so maybe... Guardians, Windriders and Rangers?

[Brother Claudio]

You are right about the guardians, they are on another path (but were on the path of the warrior previously in their lives) and are just called upon in times of great need.
The first to repond are the aspect shrines which are numberous, the most prominent of them are the Dire Avengers. Nearly every Eldar gets on the path of the Warrior at one point or another in their lives.
Only if the number of Aspects are not enough to deal with the threat at hand (Craftworld under attack, huge planetary campain,..) they call in the Guardians.

See that's what I've always thought and known. But I've never played eldar or read into them that much Fluffwise other than the codex entries

[Path Walker]

Im gonna wait to see the exacts of the new book before i cry foul but im hoping this whole Guardian thing hasnt ripped the heart out of my Iyanden Ghost List. Ive only got 20 Wraithguard as is, i dont wanna have to rip more out to fit in mandatory Guardians.

It does say '3 types of Guardian' though so maybe... Guardians, Windriders and Rangers?

Ghost lists will need guardians now, because they're troops, Spiritseer no longer changes Wraith Guard to troops, there could be another new detachment type on the way though.

The 3 guardian types are Storm, Defender and Windrider

[Sonikgav]

Bugger.

Well if the Rumours posted on here turn out true, and there's no other big surprises i think my 1850 list is identical but 140 points cheaper. Guess thats going on Guardians one way or the other...

Wait, no Wraithguard as Troops? DAMMIT! I was running 4 units.... guess ive got points for lots of Guardians now :(

For reference this is what i was running.

Illic Nightspear - 140
SpiritSeer - 70

Rangers x5 - 60
Wraithguard x5 - Wave Serpent - Holo Fields - 290
Wraithguard x5 - Wave Serpent - Holo Fields - 290
Wraithguard x5 - Scythes - Wave Serpent - Holo Fields - 340
Wraithguard x5 - Scythes - Wave Serpent - Holo Fields - 340

Crimson Hunter - 160
Crimson Hunter - 160

1850

I know Illic got a bit of a nerf too but hopefully he's still Lethal enough for me. I do enjoy my Sniper Units.

[Charon]

This List is not possible, but I guess you get quite close. Either you go CAD + allied detachment (you will need another unit of Rangers or Guardians or whatever for this)
or you mix it up a little and go:

Wraithhost:

1 Spiritseer
3 Units of Wraithguard or Wraithblades (in any combination)
1 Wraithlord
1 Wraithknight

and

Crimson Death:

3 Crimson Hunters

[Ravingbantha]

Fluff wise, every eldar is on a path, it may be farming, or smithing, poetry, war, or seer (and so on). but every Eldar is trained to fight as a citizen soilder. Technically a guarding may be an ex-Banshee or ex-Reaper, but are now on a different Path. Yes Guardians only take the field of battle in the most dire times, but to be honest the Eldar never take the field of Battle except the most dire of circumstances. Wraith constructs are only used as a last resort, because it means waking the dead, which the Eldar find a horrid thought and Knights are even more rare as it requires twins, one of which must be dead.

Unfortunatly most people dont care about the background of the army they play, they just want to field the most powerful units they can. Personally I love the new rules, I can field a variety of troops and come at my opponent from various angles.

[Sonikgav]

Yeah ill probably just 'conform' and drop a unit of Wraiths (probably increase 2 of them to 6 each with the Seer in the other) then spend all the spare points on my Troop slot.

Ill wait to see the specifics on the Guardians before making a decision though. I was considering Windriders but im not sure theyre sturdy enough, though around 350 points of them should be able to withstand a fair bit of incoming fire. (Should be about 3x6 i think)

[Charon]

Yeah ill probably just 'conform' and drop a unit of Wraiths (probably increase 2 of them to 6 each with the Seer in the other) then spend all the spare points on my Troop slot.

Ill wait to see the specifics on the Guardians before making a decision though. I was considering Windriders but im not sure theyre sturdy enough, though around 350 points of them should be able to withstand a fair bit of incoming fire. (Should be about 3x6 i think)

They are extremely durable (people tend to forget their mobility does a lot of thing for their survival) but smaller units are preferable as they are a lot easier to hide, can grab a lot more objectives, are still fast enough to concentrate fire at one point if needed and makes the enemy waste a lot of shots on a 3 man unit.

[Sonikgav]

3x6, 4x4, 5x3 with upgrades, i can test them all just dont wanna go too small since First Blood is a thing too. If im honest if more is better id probably settle with 4 units of 4 Bikes and maybe look at weapon upgrades.

Also if im not moving Wraithguard to Troops i might actually find the points to upgrade him to a Farseer or Autarch depending on what i feel the list needs. (Farseer is just a better Psyker and Autarch can help the Flyers arrive on when i want them if he has similar abilities to current)

[Path Walker]

Fluff wise, every eldar is on a path, it may be farming, or smithing, poetry, war, or seer (and so on). but every Eldar is trained to fight as a citizen soilder. Technically a guarding may be an ex-Banshee or ex-Reaper, but are now on a different Path. Yes Guardians only take the field of battle in the most dire times, but to be honest the Eldar never take the field of Battle except the most dire of circumstances. Wraith constructs are only used as a last resort, because it means waking the dead, which the Eldar find a horrid thought and Knights are even more rare as it requires twins, one of which must be dead.

Unfortunatly most people dont care about the background of the army they play, they just want to field the most powerful units they can. Personally I love the new rules, I can field a variety of troops and come at my opponent from various angles.

I'd add that when on The Path of the Warrior, the Aspects require a lot of devotion, meditation and dedication as well as specialised equipment to use the skills associated with the shrine, even if the Guardian has trained in a Path before, he's unlikely to be able to bring those skills to bear in any but the most general sense. Those that do have some skills from treading the Path of a Warrior might lead Guardian Squads or man weapon batteries, if they had been a Banshee or Scorpion they might join the Storm Squads, but Guardians aren't on the Path of the Warrior. Despite what Charon invents.

[Charon]

i can test them all just dont wanna go too small since First Blood is a thing too.

Would not think too much about first blood as in most games this is claimed by the player that gets to shoot first no matter the unit sizes. There might as well be a wyvern targeting your Rangers or a Drop pod melting down a Serpent.
Not too sure about the Farsser, mainly because he does not do a whole lot for wraiths while the spiritseer does buff the unit quite nicely.

[Da Gargoyle]

Brother Claudio - you are the only dude I have seen that is worried about someone fielding their weakest choice in their org chart. Each to his own, but I like my troops choices, in 1500 they allow for a reasonable selection of other stuff while bulking up the army a bit. What you should be scared of are my storm guardians. Much more rounded than the G/Defenders. They have an assault capability, fusion guns and power swords, give them a warlock and they can be fiendish. All this is stated with the rider that I don't like unbound armies and have not played one yet.

By the way, the list you suggested won't fit into 1500 points. I don't have the new dex, but wraiths with D scythes are 40 points, wave serpents are a min 115 and a WK was 240 is now 295. To load out those bikes would be over 400 points. The list without the WK is over 1300 on the lowest load outs for the serpents and guardians.

Without the WK there is not a lot in that force to deal with heavy vehicles. And if someone like my son fields hydras the wraithguard wont be a problem because they will deck it and then plant the bikes. While Scatter lasers sound scary, they only have AP6, so cover and armour will slow them down.

As for your mates and their Dar lists, I'm not seeing a huge difference between Distort and Destroyer weapons. There was a lot of power there in the first place. What I do like is the fact that we may see Falcons back on the table, and when I bought my Dar I bought the vehicles in lots of 3.

- - - Updated - - -

Charon
Just ignore Pathwalker he is trolling as usual. Im glad that I did put him on ignore half a year ago... sadly I can still see you quoting his bs.. Mate that was a bit harsh. I read Path Walkers posts and they were not personal or insulting. He was just pressing the fluff that supports why guardians would be seen on the battlefield. I don't know what his history is like but on this occasion I think he is more sinned against than sinner.

[Charon]

As for your mates and their Dar lists, I'm not seeing a huge difference between Distort and Destroyer weapons. There was a lot of power there in the first place.

The difference gets clearer if you look at D-Scyhes and Heavy D-Scythes. Both had previously S4, AP2. Now they are D with -1 on the chart, meaning 1-2 nothing, 2-6 D3 wounds with ignore Fnp (Invul saves are still valid)

Now get a old Hemlock (Heavy D-Scythe on a Flier) and shoot at a talos. If both blasts hit, you need to roll a 6 to wound it and it gets to roll Fnp. Even if you roll like a god and he rolls badly it survives with 1 wound left.
Now do the same with the old Hemlock: If both blasts hit, you wound on a 3+ and cause D3 wounds per successful wound roll without allowing fnp. Its pretty much dead.
Same for Grotesques, Greater Daemons, Even Landraiders which it could not even scratch before. On a roll of 3+ you score a penetrating hit and cause D3 Hull points.

The difference is HUGE.

It is not so much difference on Wraithcannons and Heavy Wraithcannons, as these were S10 anyways with ID on a 6 but on the smaller weapons it is devastating.

[daboarder]

even on wraithcannons the difference is stupidly in favour of the new variant.

Because the S10 ID on a 6 operated within the mechanics of the game tough units could (and did) shrug them off. Units like raiders, Knights, superheavies, gargantuans etc, things that SHOULD and used to be able to, shrug of distort due to their size/being eldrich abominations/ faith in the god emperor etc.

Now, well an extreme example is a pair of wraithguard looking at a heirophant funny and watching it fall over (double 6s on the D chart, hardly outside the bounds of probable statistics)

[Da Gargoyle]

Is my face red or what? I actually read the destroyer rules after posting, (Now there is a lesson for people). I see now why people are freaking out. Basically if a Wraithguard unit get within shooting distance, nothing is going to survive. And if we talk templates, the old trick of overshooting into the next squad is suitably devastating also. Talk about opening my mouth to change feet. :o And having looked at the destroyer rule, even though the wraith cannon and D Scythe are distortion weapons, I do agree they are overpowered for a Dar portable weapon.

The upside is, what ever wraith construct you have they only have an armour save of 3+ save and no invulnerable. The WK can get invuln' but at the cost of its two wraith cannon. I don't know if the sun cannon is a D weapon now? And a 5+ invuln' is not the B's & E's. To my mind this could see the rebirth of devastator squads, small units with high fire power that sit at the back of the field while an equally dangerous unit like anihilators are further forward. Las cannon & missile mix for the Dev's and las cannon for the tanks. Obviously IG/AM are as equally well equipped for this, possibly even using zooming flyers. Tau have the firepower, as do CSM, its hoard armies that will struggle, I think. Anyway the object is multiple high threat units dispersed across the battlefield.

Delivery, wave serpents are the tool of choice to get the WG to the target point as nothing else has the transport capacity. This means that stopping them is the next issue on the agenda. I tended to forget about flyers because I never used them. The reports I heard was that they usually got shot down the turn they appeared on the board.

Anyway, there are things to ponder for an elf such as myself. Like will the Wraithblades now sit on the shelf as they can't deliver nearly as much damage as the shooty boys. I also use a surprising unit for assault, if I could ever get them into assault in the first place. And in regards to one comment I read, may be Aspect warriors just got priced out of the org chart unless I'm feeling sentimental.

[daboarder]

Knights are Gargantuan Creatures therefore they have among their many benefits FNP, on a T8 model (therefore S4 cannot scratch it) that is in most situations that matter operating like a 5+ invulnerable save. (or better against mid strength high Ap weapons that rely on volume of fire because it gets the 3+ save and then the FNP)

[Da Gargoyle]

I didn't know about the FNP thing and it will come into the equation. But I still think units capable of hi fire rates with heavy weapons, like rail gun toting xv88's or SM devastators, IG/AM heavy weapons squads and massed dark lances, all of which hit forcing the invulnerable save can take down a WK in one turn. I had not built mine yet because of the experience I've had with my wraithlord. He copped the same treatment and even psychic support did not save him. For jet bikes range is not an all saving panacea. A deepstriking unit of terminators with a heavy flamer will do the job on units of 5 or less. Or how about orbital strike from IG. If the bikes take 25% casualties and they are hanging back for long range shooting, there is a good chance they will run off the board. Do the WK inspire fearlessness ?

[daboarder]

Thing thing moves 12 A turn can fire at separate units and gets cover like a MC.

its not going to care or its going to kill the unit before they can do anything.

and it does that for only 290 pts

[DarkLink]

And even if you do kill it, it'll take so much of your army to kill so few points that he'll just blow you away with the rest of his army next turn anyways.

And how is a single deepstriking heavy flamer supposed to kill 5 jetbikes? It's AP4 so they'll get their 3+ save, it wounds on a 3+ and it can only get at most 5 hits, and deepstriking that close to an enemy unit is a bad idea and won't come until at least turn 2. So you give your opponent at least one, maybe two shooting phases, you pull a high-risk gamble, to kill at most 1 jetbike? And they'll just turn around and blow the Terminators away or fly away and ignore them until later, and your unit is stuck hanging out in the middle of nowhere. Not a great plan.

[Charon]

and massed dark lances

You need around 27 Dark Lances to kill a WKnight (without cover). That is 9 ravagers (the cheapest source of lances) which would be 1125 points dedicated to kill 290 points (so you get nearly 4 Wraithknights for the points you need to kill a single one)

[DarkLink]

And odds are pretty good most of those ravagers will be dead T2. You're going to lose that game.

[Charon]

To be fair you would not even be able to afford them as you would need to spend at least 270 points in HQ and Troops (and that is 3 Lhamean and 6x5 Kabalites) to unlock the 9 Heavy Support Slots, while the WKnight also can get healed back up by Warlocks/Spiritseers.

[Arkhan Land]

I think youre best bets against thing will be a many model CC suprise where you can sacrifice your higher initiative models before moving in at step 1 with multiple power fists/claws/hamers/force etc.

[daboarder]

I think youre best bets against thing will be a many model CC suprise where you can sacrifice your higher initiative models before moving in at step 1 with multiple power fists/claws/hamers/force etc.
It moves 12. Good luck catching it

[40kGamer]

Would grav guns be a good bet against a Wraithknight? Just curious if I'll see even more grav spam in marine armies in the near future.

[Arkhan Land]

It moves 12. Good luck catching it

if catching it is the issue then Bikes, maybe youll be lucky to force some wounds on a ton of HOWs

however I cant stress enough the word "best" and "bet" in my previous post : p

[daboarder]

Would grav guns be a good bet against a Wraithknight? Just curious if I'll see even more grav spam in marine armies in the near future.

well, they bypass its toughness, but they'd still need to get through its cover and FNP.

so I guess better than most

[40kGamer]

well, they bypass its toughness, but they'd still need to get through its cover and FNP.

so I guess better than most

Better than nothing I guess. A single Wraithknight, while criminally undercosted, might be manageable for some of the armies... it's when you start spamming them out that it gets really stupid!

[Charon]

Centurions should easily get rid of them. 3 with missiles and grav cannons are around the points of a Wknight and should be able to clear in one round of shooting.
Space Marines and Crons are not the armies I worry about.

[Deathmage]

Whereas Chaos are crying because they can't touch it... Seriously though, does anyone know how to kill a Wraith Knight as Chaos? I cannot think of any ideas... *mumbles* At least my army doesn't look like the Power Rangers...

[Arkhan Land]

your standard csm/daemon flying circus can vector strike to its heart content free of the concern that blast weapons cause. then your only d fears are being in range of a snappin wraithgaurd... then its onto the points not spent on sky-power

also whatever you do DONT GET SHOT DOWN/GROUNDED

[Djbz]

Whereas Chaos are crying because they can't touch it... Seriously though, does anyone know how to kill a Wraith Knight as Chaos? I cannot think of any ideas... *mumbles* At least my army doesn't look like the Power Rangers...

Lascannons/Plasma Guns/Meltaguns/Powerfists.

[Charon]

your standard csm/daemon flying circus can vector strike to its heart content free of the concern that blast weapons cause.

The proble with their vector strikes is that it is only S6/7 in most cases (so needs a 5+ or 6+ to wound), does let him roll FnP AND is one hit only.
The thing with blast weapons is... FMC are not immune to them. The rules for flyers and FMC are different. You still need to snapshot if you have no skyfire, but a hemlock for example can easily kill a FMC with their Heavy D-scythes.


Lascannons/Plasma Guns/Meltaguns/Powerfists.

And im sure you can totally thing of a cost efficent way to field enough to kill him, right?

You need around 36 Plasmaguns to kill a WKnight.

[Djbz]

And i'm sure you can totally thing of a cost efficient way to field enough to kill him, right?

You need around 36 Plasma Guns to kill a WKnight.

Is there any "cost effective" way of dealing with a gargantuan creature with T 8 apart from Grav?

I just pointed out what Chaos have that CAN hurt it with a decent chance per weapon, I have no delusions about bringing it down easily with chaos/Tyranids/orks or even Dark Eldar, and dark eldar used to laugh at the thing.

[Arkhan Land]

The proble with their vector strikes is that it is only S6/7 in most cases (so needs a 5+ or 6+ to wound), does let him roll FnP AND is one hit only.
The thing with blast weapons is... FMC are not immune to them. The rules for flyers and FMC are different. You still need to snapshot if you have no skyfire, but a hemlock for example can easily kill a FMC with their Heavy D-scythes.



And im sure you can totally thing of a cost efficent way to field enough to kill him, right?

You need around 36 Plasmaguns to kill a WKnight.

aw damn didn't realized that had changed this edition, in 6th its specifically noted, i guess just haven't had a necessary scenario happen yet in 7th. that really makes the hemlock even more brutal than I had realized. jesus.

[Mr Mystery]

Potentially churlish question, but how are people defining cost effective in this instance?

I see a lot of comments about needing X of Y to take one down, but those all seem to be based on knacking it in a single shooting phase.

Not out to criticise, just interested.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Potentially churlish question, but how are people defining cost effective in this instance?I think it's based around the idea of most units having 'hard counters' - say, a unit of Centurions being murdered by a squad of Plasma-vet Imperial Guard half their price. Seems like very few armies have hard counters for the Wraithknight.

I can't really judge if the concerns of imbalance are accurate, though, I don't have a lot of experience against things like the Wraithknight, I usually play closer to a skirmish level.

[Charon]

I think it's based around the idea of most units having 'hard counters' - say, a unit of Centurions being murdered by a squad of Plasma-vet Imperial Guard half their price. Seems like very few armies have hard counters for the Wraithknight.

Doesn't even have to be a "hardcounter" and cheaper than "the problem" but equal points would be fine for EVERY army and not double or triple the points.