Why do some people keep insisting that Spirit Leech is a psychic attack?

[HsojVvad]

Why do some people keep say that Spirit Leech is a psychic attack? Can anyone tell me where in the Tyranid codex that it says that? I am on page 62 of the Tyranid codex where it lists Tyranids psychic powers. Spirit Leech is not there.

So why do they keep insisting it's a psychic attack? Just so it will fallow under the FAQ rule of the BRB?

*edit* I thought I was in the rules section, sorry.

[Melissia]

Why do you keep insisting that it's relevant that it is or isn't a psychic attack according to the discussion on the bols blog comments? You still have no proof that it is capable of targeting units in a transport, for instance.

[Madness]

Possibly because it's a psionic ability of a psyker. But it is not. On the other hand the psychic attack FAQ sets a precedent that affects Spirit Leech.

[HsojVvad]

Why do you keep insisting that it's relevant that it is or isn't a psychic attack according to the discussion on the bols blog comments? You still have no proof that it is capable of targeting units in a transport, for instance.

What BolS blog comments are you talking about? I don't know about any blog. I was just reading other posts that someone asked, about the new BRB FAQ that GW released, and someone mentioned the Doom rule again.

So that is why I asked why do people say it's a psychic attack when it's not listed as one.

[Madness]

I did, and while it's not a straight out interpretation it sets a precedents that has parallels in the Doom issue.

[Melissia]

Wait, you go to the BoLS Lounge and you don't read the blog or comments? What?

[HsojVvad]

Wait, you go to the BoLS Lounge and you don't read the blog or comments? What?

Today I am in one of those moods, where I just wanted to read the forums instead of anything else.

[BuFFo]

So why do they keep insisting it's a psychic attack?

They can't read.

[DarkLink]

Possibly because it's a psionic ability of a psyker. But it is not. On the other hand the psychic attack FAQ sets a precedent that affects Spirit Leech.

Well, in the fluff it's a psionic ability. Rules-wise, it's not.


They can't read.

Either that, or they don't read english:rolleyes:

[Drakkan Vael]

I did, and while it's not a straight out interpretation it sets a precedents that has parallels in the Doom issue.

Actually it does not. Ruling regarding psychic abilities has absolutely nothing to do with the Spirit Leech ability of the Doom.

As has been stated a couple of hundred times, the ability ist no form of psychic attack or psychic power at all. You might want it to be but that changes nothing in the wording of it.
You might as well claim that the ruling regarding psychic effects and transported troops covers the ability as well, but as long as this is not FAQed, we won't know for sure.

There are two ways in dealing with this: talk with the opponent before the game or simply don't use the Doom at all. (you'll get about two and a half Hive Guard for the Doom in a Pod)

[Bean]

Possibly because it's a psionic ability of a psyker. But it is not. On the other hand the psychic attack FAQ sets a precedent that affects Spirit Leech.

As Drakken Vael said, above, this is just wrong. The FAQ entry to which you're referring aren't relevant to the Spirit Leech issue at all. They set no precedent one way or another. To even consider them when looking at this issue is an obvious error.

[Melissia]

It's still a psychic power, even if it does not count as one in the rules-- similar to the abilities of Chaos Daemons, which are also psychic powers but don't count as them. It is friggin' called "spirit leech", and if you understand even a single thing about the Warp you'd understand why that is a psychic power even if it the game rules don't count it as one.

Regardless, however, you have yet to prove that it is an exception to the rule and can target units in a transport.

[Bergermeister84]

Next thing you know, people will want to use their psychic hoods or null rods to try and stop Spirit Leach.

[Madness]

I never used the wording "psychic power" on purpose.

We have what in MtG is called a static ability versus the more common triggered powers, it's clear that both are of psionic nature.

Plus no strict RAW interpretation is better than other since we don't know the exact definition of "unit" or what happens to "units" that embark on vehicles, it is only state they they are "transported" or "aboard", we have no rules that tell us how to manage transported units, except those regarding how to disembark, how to treat them when the vehicle is destroyed or how to shoot with them from firing points. Up until Spirit Leech we considered embarked units as a special rule of the vehicle they're on.

Now:

that doesn't give us a straight answer
if you take a text such as:

Psychic power
Not your usual Spirit Leech: At the beginning of your shooting phase you may choose to have every non-vehicle unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai take a Leadership on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed.
then the FAQ applies. While not strictly relevant this creates a precedent.
it stands to reason that with a precedent such as the above a likely interpretation is that the "usual" Spirit Leech doesn't apply to transported troops.


Lawyered? Lawyered.

[Bean]

It's still a psychic power, even if it does not count as one in the rules-- similar to the abilities of Chaos Daemons, which are also psychic powers but don't count as them. It is friggin' called "spirit leech", and if you understand even a single thing about the Warp you'd understand why that is a psychic power even if it the game rules don't count it as one.

Regardless, however, you have yet to prove that it is an exception to the rule and can target units in a transport.


Actually I have proven that Spirit Leech affects embarked units. I've written the proof several times in more than one place.

I'm not sure what "rule" from which you think Spirit Leech needs an exception, but the proof that Spirit Leech does affect embarked units has been presented multiple times and has not been refuted ever.



I never used the wording "psychic power" on purpose.

We have what in MtG is called a static ability versus the more common triggered powers, it's clear that both are of psionic nature.

Plus no strict RAW interpretation is better than other since we don't know the exact definition of "unit" or what happens to "units" that embark on vehicles, it is only state they they are "transported" or "aboard", we have no rules that tell us how to manage transported units, except those regarding how to disembark, how to treat them when the vehicle is destroyed or how to shoot with them from firing points. Up until Spirit Leech we considered embarked units as a special rule of the vehicle they're on.


We do have a definition of a unit. It's not a very good one, but you can find it on page 3 of the BRB.

Also, we do have several rules which tell us how to manage transported units. There are the ones you've mentioned, and there's the one on page 66 which tells us how to measure range to an embarked unit--which is all we need for Spirit Leech to affect the embarked unit.

So, yes. There is only one strict RAW interpretation and it is better than other "RAW" interpretations because it is based in the reality of the rules and others are not--often because they, as you did above, chose to ignore the rules that matter.

If you wanted to make a RAI argument against Spirit Leech affecting embarked units, that's your business, and I would ignore you since RAI arguments are innately irrelevant.



Lawyered? Lawyered.

I hope you're not a real lawyer. Your reasoning is ridiculously flawed.

[Madness]

Also, we do have several rules which tell us how to manage transported units. There are the ones you've mentioned, and there's the one on page 66 which tells us how to measure range to an embarked unit--which is all we need for Spirit Leech to affect the embarked unit.

No, it tells us how to measure range of weapons fired by the units, not how to measure if an embarked unit is on range.

[Bean]

No, it tells us how to measure range of weapons fired by the units, not how to measure if an embarked unit is on range.

Did you even read it?

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

That's word-for-word on page 66. You're 100% wrong on this one, and you'd know that if you'd bothered to read the rules.

Try again.

edit:
To reiterate the proof:

1.) Spirit Leech affects all units which meet the following requirements:
- that the unit be an enemy unit,
- that the unit not be a vehicle unit,
- and that the unit be within 6" of the Doom

2.) A unit embarked in a transport is within 6" of the Doom as long as the transport is within 6" of the Doom (thanks to page 66).

3.) An embarked unit can be an enemy unit and it can be a non-vehicle unit.

4.) Thus a unit embarked in a transport can meet all of the requirements for being affected by Spirit Leech.

5.) Thus, a unit embarked in a transport can be affected by Spirit Leech.

Simple, sound, and irrefutable. The Doom can affect embarked units with Spirit Leech--and no rule anywhere says otherwise.

[Melissia]

Actually I have proven that Spirit Leech affects embarked units. I've written the proof several times in more than one place.
Where? I don't see any proof, just a bit of whining. Post something, actual rules which state that it can target units embarked in a transport.

I'm waiting.

[Madness]

Hmm, apparently RAW is present even if it's kinda idiotic (a corner of a rhino inside the spirit leech area will allow it to effect an IC on the opposite side of the vehicle.) But I still expect that it will be FAQ'ed to comply with the other psychic powers.

[Renegade]

There are the ones you've mentioned, and there's the one on page 66 which tells us how to measure range to an embarked unit

No, there are rules there for Embarking and Disembarking, which proves your only trying to screw with the rules, nothing there to clear up the debate.

And as it happens in the Shooting phase, it can still be argued as a shooting attack,regardless of whether it targets or not, it's the phase it happens in.

Lets just all be patient and wait for an FAQ or Errata on this.

[Bean]

Where? I don't see any proof, just a bit of whining. Post something, actual rules which state that it can target units embarked in a transport.

I'm waiting.

I edited into my post right above yours.

[Madness]

Just for fun, if we ignore what was probably a terribly worded FAQ (as opposed to a FAQ not A a FQ) this is what happens:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=395&d=1267292387
The red embarked model is CLEARLY affected by the purple area of Spirit Leech.

[Bean]

No, there are rules there for Embarking and Disembarking, which proves your only trying to screw with the rules, nothing there to clear up the debate.



I quoted it, word for word, three posts above yours. Did you even read the page in question? (66 by the way)

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

You are absolutely wrong, and you absolutely should have known better.



And as it happens in the Shooting phase, it can still be argued as a shooting attack,regardless of whether it targets or not, it's the phase it happens in.


It's not an attack at all. It doesn't matter whether it happens in the Shooting phase--it can't be a shooting attack if it's not an attack.

Is running a shooting attack? No. Obviously not. According to your "reasoning," though, it would be since it happens in the shooting phase--which demonstrates pretty concretely that your "reasoning" is inane.


Lets just all be patient and wait for an FAQ or Errata on this.

No need. The rules on this are entirely clear to those who actually bother to read the rules.

[Renegade]

I think Madness has just pointed out the second biggest flaw in trying to esque Embarktion and Disembarkion rules in a shoe horn fastion to enable the Doom to effect embarked units.

[The Mystic]

The problem is it is clearly listed in the codex as a special rule not a psychic power in it's unit entry on page 58 and again in it's profile on page 89.

Regardless of fluff, this is a fact!

With this fact, I think the real question is, can a special rule affect an embarked unit?

[david5th]

Is anyone getting a sense of deja vu?

[Melissia]

The problem is it is clearly listed in the codex as a special rule not a psychic power in it's unit entry on page 58 and again in it's profile on page 89.

Regardless of fluff, this is a fact!

With this fact, I think the real question is, can a special rule affect an embarked unit?

Not unless it specifically says it can.

[Renegade]

Bean, take a chill pill. Your taking a rule for embarktion out of context of the rest of the rule. It does not work the way you are describing.

[Bean]

I think Madness has just pointed out the second biggest flaw in trying to esque Embarktion and Disembarkion rules in a shoe horn fastion to enable the Doom to effect embarked units.

Not at all. If, in fact, Madness was attempting to object to my conclusions, it was a particularly pathetic attempt. This is true for several reasons:

First, models in an embarked unit are not on the table. There's never a model in that particular position within a transport, because there's never a model in any position within a transport. They're all off the table. Only the unit's location is abstracted out to be the same as that of the transport's hull.

Second, the power affects units not individual models. All that matters is that the unit be within 6" of the Doom. The positions of each particular model within that unit doesn't really matter. You could just as easily have a situation where a non-embarked unit has only one model within 6" of the Doom and it could potentially be losing models which are quite a bit farther away from the Doom to Spirit Leech.

Madness has pointed out an odd consequence of the fact that some things in the game affect units, which allows them, in turn, to affect models in those units which are not, themselves, in range. However, this consequence is extremely common throughout 40k. Think about shooting--models that aren't in range of the firer's guns can be removed as casualties. This isn't restricted to the Doom, and it doesn't serve, in any way, as an argument against Spirit Leech affecting embarked units.

It isn't a flaw in my argument.

Of course, my argument doesn't try to "esque" anything. That's not even a word--what were you trying to say?

[Bean]

Not unless it specifically says it can.

You keep alluding to a rule which prevents things from affecting embarked units unless they specifically say that they do.

Where is this mysterious rule? Can you quote it for us?

[Bean]

Bean, take a chill pill. Your taking a rule for embarktion out of context of the rest of the rule. It does not work the way you are describing.

The rule is very clear, and it does work exactly the way I'm describing. I'm not removing anything from its context.

I quoted it word for word. It does exactly what it says it does--it allows you to measure ranges to or from embarked units. That's exactly its context.

You, on the other hand, lied about what was on page 66. That is inexcusable, and it is not unreasonable to call you out for doing so.

[Madness]

The thing is, allowing people to die inside of a transport in said way will usher the necessity for further rules (or clarifications) such as routing from inside a vehicle and a thousand more issues that shatter the suspension of disbelief (the parasite of mortrex rule is much more elegant in this aspect), like, for instance if I wipe a necron squad s being trasported and gets wiped out how will WBB work? and if a new unit embarks the previously empty vehicle? Do we risk a vehicle carrying more than its capacity? Will Lukas' stasis bomb freeze the doom?
And so on.

The game is clearly tailored in a way so no unit dies inside a transport, further explained by "The Sarge is acting strangely..." from The Parasite of Mortrex. I'm sure all the questions I posed will find an easy answer to a minutious enough analyst, but the fact that a laid back player such as me is even able to come up with them is an indicator that many more are hidden and will pop out making people even more confused.
Again, "The Sarge..." clearly shows that they know that people dying inside transports are a messy thing to manage and they probably don't want Spirit Leech to work that way.

That said for strict RAW'ers it's to be interpreted as Bean suggests, for anyone who ever dared looking for a meaning I'd FAQ it so it doesn't work for embarked units.

[Bean]

Models inside transports can already die, Madness. Gets Hot! and Perils of the Warp can kill embarked models. They've been able to do so, and they've been able to provoke morale tests and force units to fall back out of transports ever since 5th edition was released.

This also isn't really a good objection.

But, I'm glad you agree with me about the RAW.

[Renegade]

It isn't a flaw in my argument.

Of course, my argument doesn't try to "esque" anything. That's not even a word--what were you trying to say?

Try using proper English instead of colonial. Your using part of a rule to twist are rule to your favour when to rule in question does not do anything of the sort. Try and find a rule that supports your oppinion instead of twisting parts of rules that only make you look a fool.

[DarkLink]

Not at all. If, in fact, Madness was attempting to object to my conclusions, it was a particularly pathetic attempt. This is true for several reasons:




Of course, my argument doesn't try to "esque" anything. That's not even a word--what were you trying to say?



You, on the other hand, lied about what was on page 66. That is inexcusable, and it is not unreasonable to call you out for doing so.

Bean, cool it. No one want to have posters act demeaning and dismissive to each other over the rules for a game we play as a casual hobby. It's only a game. No need to get worked up over it.

[Renegade]

You, on the other hand, lied about what was on page 66

No, I am going by the entire rule, it is called Embarking and Disembarking. If you throw another insult like that my way, I will take it up with the Mods. This is how the rules work on the opinion of our interpretation, mine is that yours twists a rule and takes it out of context by using only part of it.

[Madness]

I see, but the range thing is so exploitable with vehicles that FAQing it out becomes a matter of game balance I think.

About routing out of the vehicle it states that models can disembark only due to strict circumnstances (in certain phases or when the vehicle is destroyed, or when a rule such as The Sarge... is explicit about it.)

[Bean]

Try using proper English instead of colonial. Your using part of a rule to twist are rule to your favour when to rule in question does not do anything of the sort. Try and find a rule that supports your oppinion instead of twisting parts of rules that only make you look a fool.

Yeah, it's not a word in British English, either.

I'm not twisting anything.

The rule I quoted is extremely clear. It allows you to measure range to or from a unit.

How can you possibly say that,

"if the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

does anything other than let you measure the range to or from an embarked unit?

What do you think that rule is there for, if not for stuff like this?



No, I am going by the entire rule, it is called Embarking and Disembarking. If you throw another insult like that my way, I will take it up with the Mods. This is how the rules work on the opinion of our interpretation, mine is that yours twists a rule and takes it out of context by using only part of it.

What whole rule? I quoted the whole rule. There's nothing else that changes its function or restricts it to a different context.

Also, I can run to the moderators over your insults as well. I'm not going to, but don't try to pretend you're being any nicer.

[gcsmith]

Renegade, Its precisely under embarking, why then if already embarked would you need to measure to the unit. Its not taken out of context as its under embarktion which is quite a reasonable place to put rules about measuring to the unit that is embarked. If you work on the basis its only to do with embarking well nothing when embarking needs to measure to a unit embarked in the vehicle so the sentence wouldnt make sense. Therefore it is entirelly reasonable as bean and a lot of other players do to defer that sentence as a way to affect said embarked unit.

[Renegade]

Yeah, it's not a word in British English, either.


Will have to check my spelling of it then.


What do you think that rule is there for, if not for stuff like this?

For Emarking and Disembarking from a vehicle, as the title of the rule suggests. And to see if its in range for things like rallying if the unit has a banner and those kind of things.

[Bean]

Will have to check my spelling of it then.

What do you think it means? Maybe I can help.


For Emarking and Disembarking from a vehicle, as the title of the rule suggests.

So, you can only measure a range to the unit when Embarking or Disembarking? Even though neither of those activities involve measuring a range to or from a unit? Even though both of those activities spell out very clearly how they should be conducted, including how to perform all of the measurements necessary to conduct them?

Further, the rule specifically refers to measuring a range to or from an embarked unit--not measuring range to or from an embarking or disembarking unit.

So, not only does your suggestion make no sense, it is specifically contradicted by the text of the rule itself. Your "interpretation" is just wrong--demonstrably so. You are the only one here trying to twist a rule out of its context.

Its context is clear--and it extends well beyond units which are actively embarking and disembarking units. It extends all the way to embarked units, actually, which should be obvious, since that's what it says.

[HsojVvad]

Where? I don't see any proof, just a bit of whining. Post something, actual rules which state that it can target units embarked in a transport.

I'm waiting.

I am new here, but I thought Melissia was an upstanding member of these forums. Am I wrong here? All I see from his\her posts are whinning. Some pretty good facts were given, and he\she just brushes them off like other members as well. All I am seeing from Melissia and others is whinning or I say so, prove me wrong, and when proven with something they just say it dosn't count. How dosn't it count? Please prove your facts. Bean has proven it.

Bean has given very good facts, an nobody has proven him wrong without saying it ain't so and not proving any facts to prove him wrong.

That is why I made this post. Why do people keep insisting it. Is it because you are a non Tyranid player and put you units in tanks to hide from everything? Is it because people don't want to adapt to something new? Funny many people say GW dosn't do something new, and when the do they don't like it?

This is not Warseer or Whineseer where people say I am right, you are wrong no matter what. Some peoople have proven great facts in other threads espically Bean, and people just shrug it off as it dosn't matter. These are good facts he proves so why can't people prove Beans facts wrong instead of saying, something like

" the fluff indicates it's a psychic attack" but the rules clearly say it is not. Fluff wise, Lictors shouldn't be in Broods, but they are in 5th edtion. Fluff wise Carnifex were never in broods, but now they are. We can't go by Fluff becuase the next person who goes by fluff I will say SM can not hide in Transports because they would never be scardy cats of a DoM and would attack right to it in CC to destroy it. Geez I can't believe the mighty SM hiding and cowering inside a vehicle because of a DoM.

Yes I know I am new to the rules, and I can act like a jerk at times. But from what I have seen in here and other threads, some of us are acting like jerks as well because they can't even concede that they could be wrong. If you want to be right and the other person wrong, you have to prove that the other person as well is wrong with facts, not just because "I say so".

Sorry for long post but it was said it's not a shooting attack. People keep saying it is a shooting attack because it's in the shooting phase. Then it's said, is running a shooting attack, because it's in the shooting phase as well, and nobody says anything afterwards. So to keep insisting it's a shooting attack seems and not backing up your own facts is just plain wrong, and then I can't take you seriously anymore.

Also to say nobody can ever die in a transport and it's proven it can happen with a Perils of the warp attack or over heat with a plasma, and then still say nobody can die in a transport just makes you ignorant now. So please back up your factsbecause these debates are just one sided. It's like Bean is saying 2+2=4 and someone is saying no it's 5.

Are some people just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and to piss people off? Maybe I just found my answer to my question originally.

[gcsmith]

Um renegade some hypocrism in your last post. You deem its for embarking and disembarking and banners. sorry but if you claim we cant hit u due to it being under embarking then banner items dnt work either.

[Renegade]

Though it does nicely clear up banners, it does not clear up your opinion of the Dooms power on an embarked unit.
Also, by using the rule as you have called it, you would have to say that the crew to a test as well, which they can only be forced to do on the Vehicle Damage chart.

Again, if you want to call it that way, RAW would have it that as this happens in the shooting phase, it can still be affect by those rules.

[gcsmith]

Crew are not a unit, as such we havnt got to say they test, and pray tell IF we cant doom you, how does your Banner come out?

[Renegade]

Why do people keep insisting it. Is it because you are a non Tyranid player and put you units in tanks to hide from everything?

Both my local GW's have called against it working on vehicles (what you get for living between a city and a shopping centre). So I see no reason to support it on an internet forum.


sorry but if you claim we cant hit u due to it being under embarking then banner items dnt work either.

Rules for the Banner would say diffently, it effects all friendly units, and I am not saying that embarked units are off the table, just that Doom cannot effect them due to how the rules are written.

[The Mystic]

Ok, couple of things:

1- Lets establish some facts first. Spirit leech is a special rule and not a psychic power. Models may suffer wounds while embarked in a transport. These we know to be true.

2- Now the fundamental question is still can a special rule affect a unit that is embarked in a transport? Melessia is the only poster to reply to this and her response was that unless it specifically states it can, it can't. If this is the case, what happens to an embarked unit that suffers a wound and must take a morale test when, for instance, there is a friendly model in the game with the Rites of battle special rule? Does the rule apply and the unit uses the friendly models leadership or is it prevented because it is embarked?

Which would you choose?

[gcsmith]

The same rule which says it can affect due to measuring to and from the unit and the banner is worded the same as Doom of Malantai. Also The GW staffers at my store say it can work so your staff member argument doesnt work.

[Bean]

Ok, couple of things:

Melessia is the only poster to reply to this and her response was that unless it specifically states it can, it can't.



And Melissia is wrong. This assertion on her part is completely without basis in the actual rules.

[Renegade]

[/QUOTE]Also The GW staffers at my store say it can work so your staff member argument doesnt work.[/QUOTE]

Just cause they allow it in your area, doesnt mean its correct either. I would be happy to go with it on a roll off or if discussed properly before a game and the consequenses in case of moral checks. But in till its FAQ'ed, I would say "yes it works" as a blanket statement till then, as till then it is open to interpretation.

Nothing so far in the rules allows an enemy unit to harm a unit in transport, not even the psychic hood does that. What has been allowed by the rules is the effects of things that directly benefit the unit, or may harm the unit if it takes a certain action. The rules state it happens in the shooting phase, so is it effected by the rules for shooting? Does it state that it effects units in transport or is supported that rules in exsistance already support it?

Nothing so far states that it is not a shooting attack of some kind, sure its a special rule, but it still happens in the shooting phase. The second part is what we have debated many times before and are doing so again, it depends on your take of the rules.

It doesn't really effect me at present as I dont use transports, just tanks, dreads and footsloggers, but if I did then I would really want to see a decission by GW clarifing this cause these debates have been going on for what seems an absolute age now.

[HsojVvad]

Nothing so far in the rules allows an enemy unit to harm a unit in transport, not even the psychic hood does that. What has been allowed by the rules is the effects of things that directly benefit the unit, or may harm the unit if it takes a certain action. The rules state it happens in the shooting phase, so is it effected by the rules for shooting? Does it state that it effects units in transport or is supported that rules in exsistance already support it?

Are you shue? Check out the rule in the Tyranid codex 60 the rule The Sarge is acting strangely. A unit that is outflanking inside a unit can be affected. But it just falls out of the vehicle, I assume so when the Rippers are placed they are not inside a transport therefore 1" inside.

So here is another rule that effect units inside a transport.

[Madness]

But "The Sarge..." is very explicit about it, whereas Spirit Leech is not.

Spirit Leech affects units within 6" of the DoM. The BRB states that in order to check unit distances of units inside a vehicle (unless it's shooting from fire points which follows different rules) you have to use the hull of the transport, this means that if you place the DoM slighly closer than 6" of 5 transports, it affects every single transported unit, the more a vehicle can transport, the more it affects. This of course leaving the drivers and the gunners completely untouched.

Some questions arise due to the wording tho:
Why wouldn't a psychic power with the wording I already posted have the same exact effect? (FAQ)
Why did they bother specifying "non-vehicle enemy unit" in Spirit Leech?
Why did they specify how to behave in the Parasite of Mortrex instead?
If the effects forces units to fall back, can they disembark? Falling back asks you to move, but you can't move units inside a vehicle without disembarking, and you can't disembark unless you follow the rules at page 67. So you have to move but you can't move. (nice catch 22) Do we consider them Trapped! ?
Also can someone point out where does it say I can't shoot to transported models? I need to check something.

[gcsmith]

Madness read the shooting rules. you need to measure to the models so the models not on the board you cant shoot, but the unit has a location as per vehicle rules. Secondly the Sarge rule doesnt say it can affect units in transports, it says what happens when it does. Inherently implying that rules can hit units in transports without specifics. And while the moral test thing is a problem Id just say ignore it as crew ignore moral. HINT moral not leadership meaning if the people inside followed the crew for that rule they could still take leadership since leadership is not a moral test.

[Madness]

But transported units are not crew. And a transported squad is "in range" as per BRB p.66 rule, so basically anything could shoot embarked units (they can't I just need to find out where it says that). Is that a LOS rule?

[Bean]

But "The Sarge..." is very explicit about it, whereas Spirit Leech is not.
Some questions arise due to the wording tho:


Why wouldn't a psychic power with the wording I already posted have the same exact effect? (FAQ)


Because the FAQ specifically says it doesn't. There doesn't have to be a reason for it--the FAQ is essentially just a change to the rules.



Why did they bother specifying "non-vehicle enemy unit" in Spirit Leech?


So that it doesn't affect vehicles. Obviously. This says nothing about embarked units.



Why did they specify how to behave in the Parasite of Mortrex instead?


Probably because they wanted some slight difference between its effect on embarked and non-embarked units.



If the effects forces units to fall back, can they disembark? Falling back asks you to move, but you can't move units inside a vehicle without disembarking, and you can't disembark unless you follow the rules at page 67. So you have to move but you can't move. (nice catch 22) Do we consider them Trapped! ?


No-body knows, because the rules don't cover this eventuality. That said, the Doom isn't the only thing that can produce this effect. It's a problem that's existed within the rules ever since 5th edition came out.



Also can someone point out where does it say I can't shoot to transported models? I need to check something.

It doesn't actually say that anywhere in the rules. The only things that stop you from shooting at embarked units are

A: the fact that you don't have line of sight to any of the unit's models (since the models themselves are off the table) and

B: the fact that you have to measure range to a particular model in the unit, rather than the unit itself (and, again, the models don't have any location on the table, even though the unit does.)


Also, there is no crew as far as the rules are concerned. There's just the vehicle. Spirit Leech doesn't affect vehicles because it specifically says that it does not. Since any "crew" that might exist as per the fluff are folded by the rules into the profile and characteristics of the vehicle, rather than represented separately, they too are immune. This is not true for embarked units.

[Madness]

So basically a blast covering a transport also hits all the units inside.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Wait a second, don't embarked units co-exist with vehicles - gaining the strengths which come only with the blessing of great armour? Technically a if a vehicle doesn't get affected by leech, the units co-existing do not either, right?

[Madness]

They don't co-exist as that's a status not considered by the rules, they are embarked, they are only blocked by line of sight and shielded by psychic powers (due to the FAQ), they are also limited in their shooting ability and can only move with disembarking maneuver.

[gcsmith]

Again the blast covers none of the units models so doesnt hit them.

[Bean]

So basically a blast covering a transport also hits all the units inside.

Nope. This is another argument that's been put forward before, and it was wrong, then, too.

A blast or template weapon inflicts a number of hits against a unit equal to the number of models in that unit which are under the marker or template.

None of the models in the embarked unit are on the table. Thus, they'll never end up under the marker or template, and, as long as the unit is embarked, it will never suffer hits from blast weapons or templates because of this.

To reiterate: The Unit is not the same thing as The Models in The Unit. The two are separate and distinct.

The rule on page 66 allows you to measure range to the unit and effectively gives the unit a position on the table which is coextensive with the position of the transport in which the unit is embarked.

The rule on page 66 does not allow you to measure range to a model in the unit, and does not give any of those models a position on the table. They are, in fact, off the table and have no position on the table.


Spirit Leech requires that a unit be in range--not any of the models in that unit. Thus, page 66 is sufficient.

Blast weapons, template weapons, shooting in general and even assaulting require that particular models be in range, or have some particular spacial relationship to other models to work.

When you shoot at a unit, you must measure range to a model in that unit in order for that unit to be in range. You can't measure range to an embarked model.

When resolving hits from a template or blast weapon, a unit suffers hits equal to the number of its models which are under the template. Again, the models are off the table, and cannot be under the template.

When assaulting a unit, a model in the assaulting unit must come into base-to-base contact with a model in the assaulted unit. Again, with no actual models on the table, this cannot be done. An assaulting unit could reduce the range between itself and the embarked unit to zero inches, but can never come into base-to-base contact with any of the models in that unit.

When checking to see whether a unit is affected by Spirit Leech, you simply check to see whether the unit is within 6" of the Doom. Page 66 does let you measure range to an embarked unit, so Spirit Leech will work--even though shooting, assaulting, flamers, and blast weapons do not.

This objection carries no weight, since the reasoning behind it is unsound.



Wait a second, don't embarked units co-exist with vehicles - gaining the strengths which come only with the blessing of great armour? Technically a if a vehicle doesn't get affected by leech, the units co-existing do not either, right?

Nope. An embarked unit does essentially have a position on the table which is coextensive with the position of the transport in which it is embarked. However, it does not "coexist" in any other way. Certain things which happen to the vehicle affect the embarked units, you use the vehicle or specific points on the vehicle to measure for some of the embarked unit's actions, and you use the hull to measure range to or from the embarked unit (except when it is shooting) but nothing in the rules states or suggests that the vehicle's immunity to Spirit Leech transfers over to the embarked unit.

[gcsmith]

The anti vehicle also stops it affecting vehicles which may have leadership special rules.

[Madness]

So placing a blast and measuring x" from a hit point is a different thing.

Embarked units are effected by anything but psychic powers (per FAQ), events that use templates and events that require LOS.

That's a lot of "but"s, I'm sure that give enough time I can find a lot of effects that can hit embarked units.

P.S.: I think I found another one, Njal's Lord of Tempests on Chain Lightning should be able to hit units in a transport, also Howling Cyclone makes them fall back with the usual results. Vengeful Tornado targets a model so they should be safe.

I hope you people start noticing how ridiculous this feels.

[HsojVvad]

I can't find that rule now, but I know it in here somewhere in the BRB. I read this discussion in the BRB.

I have a suggestion. Since we are bouncing all over the place shall we start from the begining, and ask on question at a time till we all can come to an agreement? This way we can solve this till the FAQ comes out.

So to start, is Spirit Leech a psychic power? I say no it is not a pyschic power because it is not listed in the Tyranid codex as a psychic power and on page 62 under Tyranid psychic powers, it is not listed on there either.

So can we agree or disagree that Spirit Leech is not a psychic power. If we can come to an agree ment then I will update the first post saying it is agreed apon and we can go onto anothor section of the rule.

[Shavnir]

P.S.: I think I found another one, Njal's Lord of Tempests on Chain Lightning should be able to hit units in a transport, also Howling Cyclone makes them fall back with the usual results. Vengeful Tornado targets a model so they should be safe.

I hope you people start noticing how ridiculous this feels.

Under your assumptions (which still aren't backed by any rule in the rulebook btw) if you are in a transport you are immune to psychic hoods, shadow in the warp et al. Your presumptions also end up with absurd situations however there is no rule that specifically protects models in transports. The only "protection" is that the models are not on the board, only the unit.

Good catch on Howling Cyclone and Chain Lightning though!

EDIT : Cancel that. "Only enemy models in Nijal's line of sight can be affected by the tempest's effects". Looks like they got ya there!

[Madness]

We already agreed on that, it's a power of psychic nature, but somehow it's not a Psychic Power, just like Mephiston Gaze or Njal's LoT.

Also, please, don't sidetrack the discussion, I think we're getting to a consensus that SL interpreted as RAW does affect Embarked units in a ridiculously strong way, and that as soon as GW says anything about it, it will be averted so hard we might have to shutdown and restart the hive mind.

Shav, ouch, I was too fast apparently. Well, it still goes to show that Spirit Leech is a very unique effect, and as such, probably a wording mistake.

[gcsmith]

It isnt a power. A power says its a power. It is just an affect.

[Madness]

I was using power as synonim of ability, or effect, or whatever, not as the in-game term.

[Bean]

So placing a blast and measuring x" from a hit point is a different thing.

No, it's not different. Placing a template over a point and measuring from a point a distance equal to the radius of that template are effectively the same thing.

That isn't the important part. The important part is that a blast triggers off of models being in range (if by "in range" we mean "sufficiently close to the center of the blast marker") while Spirit Leech triggers off of units being in range.

The important distinction is between whether the effect in question is measuring to a model or a unit--not whether it's measuring using a template or a ruler.

You can measure to an embarked unit. You can't measure to an embarked model.




Embarked units are effected by anything but psychic powers (per FAQ), events that use templates and events that require LOS.


No, embarked units, like all other units, are affected by things for which they meet the criteria necessary to be affected and from which they are not explicitly protected.

In the case of Spirit Leech, they can meet all of the necessary criteria, but they are not specifically protected.

In the case of Shooting attacks, they can't meet all of the necessary criteria (none of an embarked unit's models can ever be in range).

In the case of Psychic Powers, they can meet all of the criteria, but are specifically protected by the BRB FAQ.



That's a lot of "but"s, I'm sure that give enough time I can find a lot of effects that can hit embarked units.


On the contrary, no buts are involved at all.



P.S.: I think I found another one, Njal's Lord of Tempests on Chain Lightning should be able to hit units in a transport, also Howling Cyclone makes them fall back with the usual results. Vengeful Tornado targets a model so they should be safe.


I'm not really familiar with all of these, but sure. Why not? As I said, if an embarked unit can meet all of the criteria necessary to be affected by something, and it doesn't have an explicit protection from that thing, then it's affected. Who cares how many things can affect them and how many can't?

Pointing out other things that can affect embarked units doesn't really bear at all on this discussion.


I hope you people start noticing how ridiculous this feels.

It's not ridiculous at all. Nothing you mentioned in this post is ridiculous except for your initial misinterpretation of my position.


edit:

And yes. According to the rules, Spirit Leech is not a psychic power.

It might be psychic according to the fluff, but fluff isn't rules and it has no bearing on a rules discussion. Spirit Leech, for the purposes of this discussion, is not psychic.

[HsojVvad]

Ok, since we are talking about if anything in a vehicle can be effected, can anyone tell me in the BRB where it says units in a vehicle are protected from everthing, anything? So far I don't see that embarked units can't be fired apon. The only reason I think you can't fire apon an enbarked unit is because you can't see the unit so there is no line of site to it, so it can't be targeted correct? So how do we resolve flammers then? Can a flammer attack an enbarked unit, and if no, why not?

[Bean]

HsoJVvad:

First:

There is no rule in the rulebook which gives a blanket immunity from targeting to embarked units, nor is there such a blanket immunity against being affected in any other way.


Second:

As I said, the lack of LOS to embarked models does prevent them from being fired upon. However, there's more to it than even that.

To check whether a target unit is in range of a model in the firing unit, you must measure range from that firing model to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

You're not measuring range to the unit, you're measuring range to a model in the unit. You can't measure range to a mode in an embarked unit, thus you can't ever be in range of such a unit for the purposes of shooting at it.

This remains true even for weapons which can fire without Line of Sight, even though the first reason does not.

Third

Flamers, like other ranged weapons, need line of sight to their targets.

Even if a flamer didn't, and you were able to target the embarked unit, none of the models in the unit are on the table. The flamer inflicts a number of hits against each unit equal to the number of models in that unit which are under its template. If none of the models are on the table, none will be under the template.

Even if you could fire it at an embarked unit (or, say, you fired it on the transport) it wouldn't inflict any hits on the embarked unit, because the template would not be positioned over any models.

It would be positioned over the unit since the unit is effectively coexistent with the transport, but being over a unit doesn't produce any hits--the template has to be over actual models to produce hits.

[Shavnir]

Ok, since we are talking about if anything in a vehicle can be effected, can anyone tell me in the BRB where it says units in a vehicle are protected from everthing, anything? So far I don't see that embarked units can't be fired apon. The only reason I think you can't fire apon an enbarked unit is because you can't see the unit so there is no line of site to it, so it can't be targeted correct? So how do we resolve flammers then? Can a flammer attack an enbarked unit, and if no, why not?

Flamer attacks are resolved against models. Also I believe you have to have LOS for one but either way there would be no models under the template. Same is true of blasts.

[Madness]

Rules are not just mechanical instructions, they are supposed to make sense and have a justification that helps us better remembering and using them (see the clarification about vehicle crews and morale for instance) since a human person is not a C parser. With the single exception of Spirit Leech people can easily "see why" a rule is like it is, the FAQ averting the Psychic Power effect on embarked units also included a justification, Njal's abilities not being able to effect embarked units is also there to preserve this logic association between what happens in the game and the narrative it should convey, the explicitness of the parasite of mortrex also helps us getting in the "mood" for said effect to happen.

Spirit Leech gives us a rule that creates an unprecedented effect (gets hot and perils are accident-like situations) without telling us "it's ok, we know we never went there, but we did in this case", combined with a faq stating that a bunch of other situations where things like that could happen, they don't really do.

So yes it does feel ridiculous.

It doesn't to a machine that reads instructions and parses instructions (hoping it doesn't encounter a division by zero, or all is lost), but to a man that got used to things going in a certain way, to see on one side an exception with a nice label that tells us it is an exception, a FAQ that tells us that most of the other exceptions won't be happening, and a lurking sneaky exception that requires a very rigid mind not to get freaked out, is kinda offputting.

Cthulhu's mythos kinda of offputting.

[Shavnir]

Rules are not just mechanical instructions, they are supposed to make sense and have a justification that helps us better remembering and using them (see the clarification about vehicle crews and morale for instance) since a human person is not a C parser. With the single exception of Spirit Leech people can easily "see why" a rule is like it is, the FAQ averting the Psychic Power effect on embarked units also included a justification, Njal's abilities not being able to effect embarked units is also there to preserve this logic association between what happens in the game and the narrative it should convey, the explicitness of the parasite of mortrex also helps us getting in the "mood" for said effect to happen.

Spirit Leech gives us a rule that creates an unprecedented effect (gets hot and perils are accident-like situations) without telling us "it's ok, we know we never went there, but we did in this case", combined with a faq stating that a bunch of other situations where things like that could happen, they don't really do.

So yes it does feel ridiculous.

It doesn't to a machine that reads instructions and parses instructions (hoping it doesn't encounter a division by zero, or all is lost), but to a man that got used to things going in a certain way, to see on one side an exception with a nice label that tells us it is an exception, a FAQ that tells us that most of the other exceptions won't be happening, and a lurking sneaky exception that requires a very rigid mind not to get freaked out, is kinda offputting.

Cthulhu's mythos kinda of offputting.

Well I'm sorry you didn't understand the rules when you read them but that's no reason to draw a RAI / RAW debate into this mess.

[HsojVvad]

Now bean this is where it's confusing and I think you just shot your self. If the models are not on the table, how can Spirit Leech effect them then? I say they are on the table, or as the BRB says, but a mini ontop of the vehicle to represent the unit that is inside the vehicle.

So if the models are not on the table, how can they fire from a vehicle then? How can they disenbark from a vehicle if they are not on the table? This is literally reading the rules makes us rules lawyers. Then again if we don't literally read the rules, then we are going by RAI.

I say Spirit Leech effect units in a transport because they are still on the table. If GW made the vehicles bigger then they could be put inside the vehicle but since they are not big enough to stuff 10 minis inside that is why they are not on the table. So are the minis on the table or not when in a vehicle. I am shure in other posts in different threads you debated that they were on the table.

[Madness]

Yes, that's right, I'm stupid, and so is a lot of other people, including veterans, who read the rule.

I'm not talking of RAW/RAI, I'm talking about RAW and Rules as they should be written so people actually understands why stuff happens the way it does specially when there's a situation in the same book in which you take the time to do it, or RATSBWSPAUWSHTWIDSWTIASITSBIWYTTTTDI for short.

The models are not on the table, the unit is. Yes it's a unit with no visible models. Yes, it's something they should have covered in some part of the book. No, there's is no judge manual like the DCI judge manual that details things with a more exact wording.

[gcsmith]

Hows it off putting, read the fluff and it makes sense, and its the rigid mind, which isnt willing to change that gets freaked out, To tell the spirits of malantai they only had to hide in their waveserpents is a bit sad.

[Madness]

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense either, I say they should have taken those 5 seconds to tell us "hey by the way, this is one of the few things that can target units in transports too!"

[Melissia]

You keep alluding to a rule which prevents things from affecting embarked units unless they specifically say that they do.

Where is this mysterious rule? Can you quote it for us?
I don't have to prove that they can't do it. Them being able to do it woudl be the exception to the rule, and so YOU have to prove that it can. It is like if there was a new edition with some confusion over the Melta rule, and someone said "prove that my melta cannot get 2d6 penetration!"-- very illogical. The onus is on the player using the Melta weapon to prove what exactly the melta weapon can or cannot do. Meltas are generally an exception to the rule that you get S+d6 penetration. If they cannot prove that the Melta weapon gets 2d6 penetration rather than d6, then it does not. Obviously one can very easily prove that Melta does indeed make an exception to the rule, and give 2d6 penetration, but I have my doubts that you can prove that this is an exception to the rule for passengers generally being unable to be targeted.

[Bean]

Now bean this is where it's confusing and I think you just shot your self. If the models are not on the table, how can Spirit Leech effect them then? I say they are on the table, or as the BRB says, but a mini ontop of the vehicle to represent the unit that is inside the vehicle.


Spirit Leech affects them because it measures to a unit not any particular model in the unit. The fact that the models are not in range doesn't matter at all to the Doom.

So, no. This doesn't contradict anything I've said at all.



So if the models are not on the table, how can they fire from a vehicle then? How can they disenbark from a vehicle if they are not on the table? This is literally reading the rules makes us rules lawyers. Then again if we don't literally read the rules, then we are going by RAI.


They can fire and disembark because there are specific rules which say that they are allowed to do those things and detail specifically how those things are done.

The rules as written specifically allow these things, and this requires no RAI interpretation.



I say Spirit Leech effect units in a transport because they are still on the table. If GW made the vehicles bigger then they could be put inside the vehicle but since they are not big enough to stuff 10 minis inside that is why they are not on the table. So are the minis on the table or not when in a vehicle. I am shure in other posts in different threads you debated that they were on the table.

Sure, but this is specifically contradicted by the rules. The rules say that the models are removed from the table. Thus, they are not on the table. This doesn't mean that they are immune to everything, it just means that they're not in range, not in LOS, not under the Flamer template and other things of that nature.

Again, there are no holes in my position. Everything I've stated is internally consistent and entirely consistent with the rules as written. The problems you've cited here are products of your imagination--they are not products of the rules, nor are they products of some flaw in my interpretation of the rules.

[HsojVvad]

When the FAQ does come out, I think it will not effect units, because when I called the 1 800 number, twice, both times they tried to tell me that it dosn't effect units but couldn't really explain to my why psychic hood can still effect units in a vehicle. To make it easier was their answer. In other words they screwed up and this is the easiest fix for them. I hope this is not the case.

I wasn 't calling you stupid Madness if that was directed at me. I like reading your replies, they are well thought out.

[gcsmith]

They dnt need to, read the parasite of mortrex his skill only says what happens when a Vehicle unit is affected not that it can.

[Bean]

I don't have to prove that they can't do it. Them being able to do it woudl be the exception to the rule, and so YOU have to prove that it can.

An exception to what rule? You still have yet to produce this mystery rule to which you're constantly referring.




It is like if there was a new edition with some confusion over the Melta rule, and someone said "prove that my melta cannot get 2d6 penetration!"-- very illogical. The onus is on the player using the Melta weapon to prove what exactly the melta weapon can or cannot do. Meltas are generally an exception to the rule that you get S+d6 penetration. If they cannot prove that the Melta weapon gets 2d6 penetration rather than d6, then it does not. Obviously one can very easily prove that Melta does indeed make an exception to the rule, and give 2d6 penetration, but I have my doubts that you can prove that this is an exception to the rule for passengers generally being unable to be targeted.

I have proven, multiple times, including once within this thread, why the Doom affects embarked units.

You have not addressed or responded to that proof. You have not quoted a rule which contradicts it. You have not, in fact, posited anything which supports your position at all, while I have quoted exactly the rules which support mine, and shown how they lead directly and irrefutably to my conclusion.

If you're going to keep trolling, at least put forth some modicum of effort to substantiate your position or attempt to refute mine. As long as you object but fail to either, your posts are of no value at all.

Since you've apparently managed to miss my proof on all of the other occasions on which I've posted it, here it is again:

1.) Spirit Leech affects all units which meet the following requirements:
- that the unit be an enemy unit,
- that the unit not be a vehicle unit,
- and that the unit be within 6" of the Doom

2.) A unit embarked in a transport is within 6" of the Doom as long as the transport is within 6" of the Doom (thanks to page 66).

3.) An embarked unit can be an enemy unit and it can be a non-vehicle unit.

4.) Thus a unit embarked in a transport can meet all of the requirements for being affected by Spirit Leech.

5.) Thus, a unit embarked in a transport can be affected by Spirit Leech.

[HsojVvad]

I don't have to prove that they can't do it. Them being able to do it woudl be the exception to the rule, and so YOU have to prove that it can. It is like if there was a new edition with some confusion over the Melta rule, and someone said "prove that my melta cannot get 2d6 penetration!"-- very illogical. The onus is on the player using the Melta weapon to prove what exactly the melta weapon can or cannot do. Meltas are generally an exception to the rule that you get S+d6 penetration. If they cannot prove that the Melta weapon gets 2d6 penetration rather than d6, then it does not. Obviously one can very easily prove that Melta does indeed make an exception to the rule, and give 2d6 penetration, but I have my doubts that you can prove that this is an exception to the rule for passengers generally being unable to be targeted.

But he has expressed his points and you shrugged them off. I am about to say who are you to say he is wrong? He proved it and you still will not accpet his answer because now you can't prove him wrong. I am sorry, the 'you have to prove it right' dosn't work anymore, because Bean has proven it and made good points wich you have no rebutal for. All you can say, it dosn't count or is not right but give no evidence to contridict him or prove him wrong.

Sorry Melissia I can't take you serious anymore, but I guess that dosn't mean much since I don't think you even care. You are either debating for the sake of debating, or have a chip on your shoulder that you are never wrong. I would love to agree with you so prove that you are correct. Not this, someone has to prove you wrong attitude, and when they do prove it, you don't acknowladge it or prove that they are wrong. Shamefull on you.

[Madness]

Melissia is likely to be working on the perceived effect of "nothing can effect embarked units" due to the fact that most interactions of the game are model-based, and embarked units have no models (on the table), while spirit leech works on a unit-base and embarked units are (apparently) still on the table.

[gcsmith]

I think Mellisa has made good points in other topics that have nothing to do with this, However it seems that players which rely on transports like SOB seriously do. However, what about nids which have no way to get across safely. Or necrons. anyway give people a break, im stubborn when The person hasnt convinced me a lot and its my army that gets affected, But still She should admit she aint got much evidence

[HsojVvad]

Melissia is likely to be working on the perceived effect of "nothing can effect embarked units" due to the fact that most interactions of the game are model-based, and embarked units have no models (on the table), while spirit leech works on a unit-base and embarked units are (apparently) still on the table.

Actually we can play the Melissia game. You have to prove to us, that anything in a vehicle can't be effected. So Melissia, please show us where units in a vehicle is not effected by anything be it shooting attacks, assaulting attack or what ever.

As you have said, if it dosn't say it can be done then it can't be done. So since it dosn't say units in a vehicle are protedted and can't be harmed that means they can be then.

[Tynskel]

But "The Sarge..." is very explicit about it, whereas Spirit Leech is not.

Spirit Leech affects units within 6" of the DoM. The BRB states that in order to check unit distances of units inside a vehicle (unless it's shooting from fire points which follows different rules) you have to use the hull of the transport, this means that if you place the DoM slighly closer than 6" of 5 transports, it affects every single transported unit, the more a vehicle can transport, the more it affects. This of course leaving the drivers and the gunners completely untouched.

Some questions arise due to the wording tho:
Why wouldn't a psychic power with the wording I already posted have the same exact effect? (FAQ)
Why did they bother specifying "non-vehicle enemy unit" in Spirit Leech?
Why did they specify how to behave in the Parasite of Mortrex instead?
If the effects forces units to fall back, can they disembark? Falling back asks you to move, but you can't move units inside a vehicle without disembarking, and you can't disembark unless you follow the rules at page 67. So you have to move but you can't move. (nice catch 22) Do we consider them Trapped! ?
Also can someone point out where does it say I can't shoot to transported models? I need to check something.

1) Psychic Powers that have AOE do effect embarked units- Both p. 66 says they do, and the FAQ says refer to page 66 of Rulebook.

2) They have to specify 'non-vehicle unit' because there are many units in the game that treat vehicles as having Ld 10 (Ex. Grey Knight Dreadnoughts FAQ). By specifying that it does not effect the vehicle, the vehicle does not take damage, and there is no question how to apply such damage.

3) The Parasite of Mortrex has no range or specification at all about transports. All it says is that units outflanking have to take the test. Technically, the unit embarked is not outflanking: the Transport is outflanking. The Sarge rule is specifically addressing this by saying the unit within the transport is effected.

4) units can disembark- p.66 and 67 address situations that you can be Forced out of your transport. You cannot VOLUNTARILY get in AND out of your transport in the same turn. You cannot get out of your transport VOLUNTARILY if the transport has traveled more than 12" (exception is Valkyrie/Vendetta). This is NOT a Catch 22. You can be forced out of your transport, and you follow the rules: p. 44 says you take a Moral Check if you lose 25% of your models in a SINGLE phase must take a moral check at the END of the Phase. p. 45 Says you fall back IMMEDIATELY upon failing the Test. p. 67 describes how to disembark- remember those 2" are just for getting out, this is not your move. p. 45 states that if you cannot complete the fall back move for ANY reason, the Unit is Destroyed. (Theoretically in the opponent shooting phase, 'Spirit Leech' could cause a Moral Check. The unit will still fire its weapons at Doom (possibly killing Doom) and then take the Check at the end of the Phase)

5) 'Spirit Leech' does not need to specify that it effects units in Transports because the Rulebook already account for this situation. AOE measure to Transport Hull to effect units inside p. 66, and 'Spirit Leech' is not a weapon, which means that it will effect units inside p. 66, and you will not get cover saves p. 21.

[gcsmith]

Now hsoj no need to get childish, just let the people dream, and then you be childish when the FAQ comes out, either childish whining or gloating, your choice, I know im expecting whining, but I always have my gloating face ready :)

[Madness]

Other funny things with words.

On page 66 the BRB states:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.This is clearly a "panic" rule, a rule that you're supposed to take out when everything else fails (IE it isn't covered by more specific rules).

It does speak of a ranges tho. A range. Now this is where I really play dumb and say "huh pa, but what's a range?"

Apparently there's only a bunch of other rules we should consider:

Page 3 BRB

A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model [...] A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between the two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model's hull or body instead.

[...]
When measuring distances between two units, use the closest model as your reference points, as shown in the diagram below. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an emeny unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model
This outlines that model and units are not so clearly identified entities, and when it comes to measuring distances, you need to use the closest model as representation of the unit. The p.66 rule overrides this, but it speaks of RANGE whereas page 3 speaks of DISTANCE, the DoM ability unless stated otherwise has no range, it has a distance you're required to check. But should the p66 rule not apply (not a range) we would have no way to measure a distance, because no model of said unit is present.

That's what happens when you go too far with RAWing. :)

[HsojVvad]

Now hsoj no need to get childish, just let the people dream, and then you be childish when the FAQ comes out, either childish whining or gloating, your choice, I know im expecting whining, but I always have my gloating face ready :)

Why will you be whining? Me I don't care, I just like to play the game either way. :D So I will have my smiley face on.

[Madness]

I get the feeling that I kinda blew your minds.

[Bean]

Other funny things with words.

On page 66 the BRB states:
This is clearly a "panic" rule, a rule that you're supposed to take out when everything else fails (IE it isn't covered by more specific rules).

It does speak of a ranges tho. A range. Now this is where I really play dumb and say "huh pa, but what's a range?"

Apparently there's only a bunch of other rules we should consider:

Page 3 BRB

This outlines that model and units are not so clearly identified entities, and when it comes to measuring distances, you need to use the closest model as representation of the unit. The p.66 rule overrides this, but it speaks of RANGE whereas page 3 speaks of DISTANCE, the DoM ability unless stated otherwise has no range, it has a distance you're required to check. But should the p66 rule not apply (not a range) we would have no way to measure a distance, because no model of said unit is present.

That's what happens when you go too far with RAWing. :)

Again, this is not actually a concern, and doesn't pose any problems for my conclusions. Why? Because in the absence of an internal definition for a word, we simply go to the standard usage of the word in English.

In this case, the word range simply refers to the distance between one thing and another. Or, to quote dictionary.com, "the distance of something to be located from some point of operation." The distance between a potential victim of Spirit Leech and the Doom.

You're really stretching, here, Madness, and despite that, you have, yet again, failed to come up with a legitimate objection.

[Madness]

The meaning of range is defined on page 17, range is a term that only (seemingly) applies to weapons. I don't see where it says Spirit Leech has a range of 6". It says that units within 6" are effected, and I have no way to measure if an embarked unit is within 6", I know how to measure a range of 6", but Spirit Leech has no apparent range.

I know I'm stretching, I'm stretching it HARD. But it's a valid point. Just as the "I'm hitting a corner of the rhino and killing a guy on the opposite side" is averted by a rules wording contradicting the reality of the situation, I'm using an in-game definition to contradict an unrealistic effect.

You came up with very reasonable definitions of the word, none of which is used in the game, so either we use reason or we use strict interpretation, but I thought we were RAWing here.

[Bean]

Page 17 defines maximum range for weapons. It further tells you how to measure range for shooting. It does not define the term range in any sort of blanket sense.

So, I'm still talking raw, and your objection is still invalid.

[HsojVvad]

but since units in a vehicle have to measure from the hull of the vehicle. That is what is said on page 66 i beleive. So if people don't want to be measuring from the hull of a vehicle, don't put the unit in a vehicle then.

Oh that give a people a choice now. Nothing wrong when having more choices to make. Almost makes playing 40K in a strategic way. ;)

[Madness]

But why defining maximum range if range doesn't need a definition. Was it the "maximum" part that was confusing? Still, I can't find range used in any place other than that, so to me, range is an attribute of a weapon or a psychic shooting attack, not of a special ability. Prove me wrong.

[Renegade]

I think Bean is being stubborn on this, and Madnesses point clearly add a new dimension to the argument. It must still measure to the closest unit as Measuring Distances state the you "use the closest models as your reference points", the closest model is a vehicle unit for the transported unit.

Page 66 does not over ride this, as the unit become almost merge when taking in to account the rules regarding Fire Points, which cover shooting from a vehicle.

Again going from page 3, the vehicle would be part of a unit so long as the units remain in coherency. Nothing in vehicle rules counter this, so if joined by a unit, they are part of the unit.

Taking the rules presented by page 66 and page 3, it there to make measuring for objectives and banners easier, while page 3 takes in to account what effects the unit in game terms.

I could probably put it another way to make more sense, however thought to writing is not my strong point.

[Bean]

I can't imagine why they chose to define maximum range--I agree that it doesn't really need to be defined.

That said, it doesn't really bear on this discussion.

To determine whether a (non-vehicle, enemy) unit is affected by Spirit Leech, you need to know whether that unit is within 6" of the Doom. To do that, you measure from the unit to the Doom.

This can be accurately described as measuring the range from the unit to the Doom, or measuring the range from the Doom to the unit, or measuring the range between the Doom and the unit.

As long as I can say, accurately, that I need to measure the range between the Doom and an embarked unit, the rule on page 66 is applicable and will let me do so by measuring to the vehicle's hull in place of the unit.

Since range does, in fact, mean the distance between two points, I can truthfully say that I need to measure the range between the Doom and an embarked unit--even though Spirit Leech doesn't actually use the word range in its text.

When I measure from the Doom to a unit, I'm measuring a range--regardless of the reason for my measurement. Thus, page 66 kicks in when I'm measuring from the Doom to an embarked unit. It's really very straight-forward.

Now, if the rulebook defined the word "range" and said something like, "range is the distance between two models as it applies to shooting and shooting only, for other situations the word 'distance' will be used instead," then you'd have a point. But, the rules don't actually contain anything that even approaches that sort of assertion.

[Madness]

Madnesses?

TBH I'd settle for people realizing that embarked units are kinda confusing units.
I mean, a unit with no models that sometimes use the vehicle model it's on and sometimes uses specific parts of the model (fire points), that can flee but can't move, that can't be targeted since it has no models but might be effected by some abilities since they mention the unit but not the models, even tho a unit is a set of models... seriously, don't be smug and accept it IS confusing and RAW might not be the best approach.

Which reminds me, anyone has the phone number of Robin Cruddace?

Bean: I'm debating for the sake of it, but page 66 is a very "emergency" rule, and the simple fact we're even using it is a sign that there's some underdeveloped mechanism and I wouldn't be shocked to find out that the line you mentioned and I previously skipped (again, p66) was to be reverted by faq rulings.

To me it all boils down to "was spirit leech explicitly meant to affect embarked units?" if it was, I'd be pissed because they didn't make it clear, if it wasn't I'd be pissed because they didn't make it clear. In short, I'm pissed since they didn't make it clear.

[Bean]

I think Bean is being stubborn on this, and Madnesses point clearly add a new dimension to the argument. It must still measure to the closest unit as Measuring Distances state the you "use the closest models as your reference points", the closest model is a vehicle unit for the transported unit.

The closest model in the unit is not the vehicle. The vehicle never becomes part of the unit riding in it. The vehicle is used for measurement to or from the embarked unit because and only because the rules specify that it is.



Page 66 does not over ride this, as the unit become almost merge when taking in to account the rules regarding Fire Points, which cover shooting from a vehicle.


Page 66 specifically override the normal rules for measuring range to or from an embarked unit. They tell you to measure to the hull of the unit's transport instead. This is a specific, overriding exception to the normal rules for measuring range. I can't even imagine how you could rationally conclude otherwise, and can only conclude that you did not.



Again going from page 3, the vehicle would be part of a unit so long as the units remain in coherency. Nothing in vehicle rules counter this, so if joined by a unit, they are part of the unit.


Nothing in the rules states or suggests that the vehicle would be part of the unit at any time. This is pure fabrication on your part, and thus has no actual bearing on the discussion.



Taking the rules presented by page 66 and page 3, it there to make measuring for objectives and banners easier, while page 3 takes in to account what effects the unit in game terms.

I could probably put it another way to make more sense, however thought to writing is not my strong point.

I doubt it. Your assertions do fail to make any sense, but it's difficult to imagine that they could make more, since they're rooted quite plainly in your imagination, rather than reality.

Pretending that there are rules which don't actually exist is bad practice in a rules forum.

[Bean]

Madnesses?

TBH I'd settle for people realizing that embarked units are kinda confusing units.
I mean, a unit with no models that sometimes use the vehicle model it's on and sometimes uses specific parts of the model (fire points), that can flee but can't move, that can't be targeted since it has no models but might be effected by some abilities since they mention the unit but not the models, even tho a unit is a set of models... seriously, don't be smug and accept it IS confusing and RAW might not be the best approach.

Which reminds me, anyone has the phone number of Robin Cruddace?

It's not confusing to me. I agree that some people have a harder time reading and understanding text than I do, and I agree that it could be written better, but it's not inherently confusing. The rules as written present a functional, internally consistent, and ultimately intelligible set of rules as far as this issue is concerned. RAW is the best solution, because, in this case, the RAW works very cleanly and plainly.

The only reason why it might appear otherwise is because people like you have been wracking your brains to twist and pull at the language of the rules to find loopholes or contradictions where none actually exist. It honestly appears that you hate the conclusions of the rules so vehemently that, in the absence of any real support from the rules themselves, you feel compelled to manufacture these absurd objections in an attempt to make the rules appear, at least, to be unclear. If you can't be right, enough smoke will, at least, make it appear to the casual observer that there isn't enough information to know if anyone is right, right?

Well, it might work on some, but not on me. Not one of your objections has had any merit. Each has been easily overcome by a modicum of reason or research, and not one has actually demonstrated any flaws, contusions, or obfuscations within the actual rules. Not one has demonstrated any failure in my reasoning or conclusion, and not one has presented any actual contradiction to my position.

They have all been nothing more than smoke--ridiculous obfuscation for which there is really no excuse.

[Madness]

Nope, I hate the usability of the solution, one that requires that some AoE effect can target embarked units while others can't just because they don't rely on the definition of model or on implicit LoS rules.

Let it also be known that I don't play a mechanized army nor Tyranids, so it's ultimately a question of what feels right to me.

I'm fine with either rulings, but for me a game is the effort of a bunch of game designers, (accidentally) intepreting the rules in a way different from what the designers intended is a worse interpretation even if it is the result of a correct and logical procedure. Specially if we consider that game designers are humans and therefore prone to error.

Thus I investigate the whole direction of the game design effort, the apparent intentions, when the FAQ on psychic powers came out, I saw a direction, and with a situation where RAW and fluffy effect MIGHT conflict, I resorted to what's the overall design approach to similar situations, thus finding the RAW slightly less acceptable.

[Jwolf]

Bean - Please read through your posts. Your tone is unnecessarily strident, and in several places you have sentences that have no reason for existing other than belittling others, as far as I can see. Please read through before posting and delete such sentences, as they detract from your message and are borderline violations of TOS.

[Shavnir]

Bean - Please read through your posts. Your tone is unnecessarily strident, and in several places you have sentences that have no reason for existing other than belittling others, as far as I can see. Please read through before posting and delete such sentences, as they detract from your message and are borderline violations of TOS.

To Bean's credit no one from the opposition has been willing to quote a page number or attempt to cite this mysterious units in transports are magically protected" rule.

[HsojVvad]

What is being referred to on page 3?

[Renegade]

I respectfully disagree, at would expect more manners from a forum member as this is not Warseer!


The closest model in the unit is not the vehicle. The vehicle never becomes part of the unit riding in it.

Go back to measuring distances. It is the closest model in the unit as the others are "not on the table" so cannot be measured to.


Nothing in the rules states or suggests that the vehicle would be part of the unit at any time. This is pure fabrication on your part, and thus has no actual bearing on the discussion.


It shares the same foot print of the vehicle, models is the vehicle, vehicle is the unit, unit is the thing you are measuring to. Where does it state otherwise?


Page 66 specifically override the normal rules for measuring range to or from an embarked unit. They tell you to measure to the hull of the unit's transport instead. This is a specific, overriding exception to the normal rules for measuring range. I can't even imagine how you could rationally conclude otherwise, and can only conclude that you did not.

No, I bet you can't immagine how anyone could argue with you. You come across as very arrogant.
It still does not make the distinction between the Unit being the vehicle or the embarked unit. It simple states that if you are required to measure a range, you do so to the vehicle. That supports them being one for the purpose of that measurment.

I have no doubt that you will argue against this, but you failed to provided anything to the cotrary to anything else I have put forward that is based on anything more than your own assumption of the rules, and flamming anyone who challenges your percieved position. I go by what I read in the rule book, and what is in my posts is what I understand by those rules. Nothing I have posted is anymore or less untrue than you have, except that I have said what I think of your assumptions.

[HsojVvad]

To Bean's credit no one from the opposition has been willing to quote a page number or attempt to cite this mysterious units in transports are magically protected" rule.

I have asked for this rule as well and nobody has given a page number as well. If going by Melissias saying, if it dosn't say you can, you can't do it. So since I can't find a rule where units enbarked in a vehicle are protected from everything, that means they are not protected at all. Even from shooting or CC. There are other rules that prevent this from happening.

So where is this magic rule that units in a vehicle do not get hurt? As people pointed out, there are rules where units enbarked do get hurt.

Sorry if I seem rude or beligerent, I don't mean to, I am not good with my writing since it's one of my weakest subjects, but I try my best.

[Renegade]

What is being referred to on page 3? for measuring distances between two units.


To Bean's credit no one from the opposition has been willing to quote a page number or attempt to cite this mysterious units in transports are magically protected" rule.

He been given plenty of page numbers, and has choosen to flame anyone that disagrees with his interpretation of the rules.

This isnt Warseer and would expect a better attitude when none has yet called him any names.

[Tynskel]

You guys should go look up the Definition of a Range-

here, I'll help out

A range is a distance between two points.

Ex. Doom of Malan'tai uses 'Spirit Leech'

Startpoint: Doom of Malan'tai (specifically the edge of the base)
Endpoint: Hull of Vehicle (within 6")



Oh my, this means that I consult page 66.

I measured a RANGE (the distance between two points!) to the vehicle's hull, and now the embarked unit is effected by 'Spirit Leech' because the ability is not a Gun/Shooting attack.

[HsojVvad]

I don't understand what is being discussed on page 3, so I will stay out of the page 3 discussions then.

But I am rereading page 66 again, so please let me know if I am reading this correctly or not. It says to place a mini on top of the vehicle so we know that the unit is in there. If we need to find the range from one model to the unit inside the vehicle we measure from the closest part of the vehicle.

So people are talking what range means since the work disntance wasn't used? Are people saying range and distance is not the same meaning?

I am getting a bit tired now, so if I don't come back, I hope everyone has a great Saturday nite and enjoys themselves and back tomorrow to continue this discussion.

[HsojVvad]

Well I just went to dictionary.com and it had like 15 definitions of range. In some instances it says the distance from a gun or weapon to it's target, eg, is it in range of the bullet, others say if an object is affected within distance of something, eg soundrange.

After reading the definitions, they way I can understand it, if we are going by the word range, is since the vehicle is withing 6" of the range of the DoM's Spirit Leech, any enbarked units inside have to take the leadership test then.

So I don't see the debate of range and distance coming in. Yes I know I am a slower learner. :p

[Renegade]

I measured a RANGE (the distance between two points!) to the vehicle's hull, and now the embarked unit is effected by 'Spirit Leech' because the ability is not a Gun/Shooting attack.

Nope, because what you measured to was a vehicle. The Vehicle is the unit between the two points.


If we need to find the range from one model to the unit inside the vehicle we measure from the closest part of the vehicle.

If for some reason you need to find the range to the embarked unit, you measure to the vehicle. That does not change the fact that you are measuring to a vehicle, the unit type you are measuring to does not change as you are only measuring to find out where that unit is, or words to that effect.

That my take on the matter, and I am yet to see one that makes more sence when the two rules are used.

[Madness]

There's no rule that says "units in transports are invulnerable" it's an effect due to the removal of units and how all the shooting and assaulting rules end up targeting models.

Pretty much anything in 40k requires a model to be visible to be the target of an action, the ever-present LoS. Blast markers and flamer templates mention "seeing" the unit under the relative template, which is impossible with no present model.

That pretty much excludes every standard effect. Some effects (like Njal special power, psychic hood's, Spirit Leech) do not inherently require a line of sight so they might be able to affect embarked models, Njal acknowledges this and averts this by explicitly requiring the LoS.

Spirit Leech should therefore work, but it's the first aggressive effect of that magnitude, and they didn't remind us that it's one of the few exception of the "rule". Yes, it's not a rule, and yes they are not REQUIRED to. But a manual should ease players in, not require them to solve enigmas.

[Shavnir]

He been given plenty of page numbers, and has choosen to flame anyone that disagrees with his interpretation of the rules.

This isnt Warseer and would expect a better attitude when none has yet called him any names.

For reference's sake do you care to quote the rule that explicitly protects units in transports from exterior effects?

[Renegade]

There's no rule that says "units in transports are invulnerable"
Going to play with this one. There is no rule to the opposite either :P
Just like there is no rule that explicitly says that the Doom can effect units in transports. ;)


For reference's sake do you care to quote the rule that explicitly protects units in transports from exterior effects?

My post 112 and backwards (though no doubt to be going forward as well)

[Shavnir]

Going to play with this one. There is no rule to the opposite either :P
Just like there is no rule that explicitly says that the Doom can effect units in transports. ;)

Doesn't need to, the rules already say the Doom can effect units in transports ;)




My post 112 and backwards (though no doubt to be going forward as well)

So if I'm interpreting this right your claim is that because you have to measure range to the vehicle's hull...the unit inside has changed unit types to vehicle? Is that what you're saying?

[Madness]

What he's saying is that since there's no infantry model but only a vehicle model, the Malan'tai effect doesn't work, since there's no non-vehicle model.

[The Mystic]

There is a critical point missing from the rules on page 3:

"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after declaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc).

As Spirit leech affects ALL non-vehicle enemy units in its area of effect we would measure the distance as per the rule on page 3. Now, if a vehicle was within that area of affect this would include the embarked unit as, for game purposes, the unit is still there.This would cause us to refer to the rules on page 66 for measuring range on an embarked unit.

It's that simple.

As for whether or not the unit is affected while embarked?

Well it's clearly stated in Spirit leechs rules that it affects all non- vehicle units within 6 inches and as the unit is effectually within that 6 inches we must conclude that it is. The models may leave the table but the unit does not.

[Shavnir]

What he's saying is that since there's no infantry model but only a vehicle model, the Malan'tai effect doesn't work, since there's no non-vehicle model.

The embarkation rules explicitly allow you to measure range to a vehicle model when you're measuring range to a non-vehicle unit. I fail to see how its relevant.

[Madness]

It's a rule not many other situations bring into effect, poorly worded to add discomfort to discomfort mountain, specially for such impressive effects. And a rule that you get to use for only one model in a very specific situation is kinda strange isn't it?

[Renegade]

This would cause us to refer to the rules on page 66 for measuring range on an embarked unit.

Which uses the Vehicle unit as the units "base" as per page 3. and you get
since there's no infantry model but only a vehicle model, the Malan'tai effect doesn't work, since there's no non-vehicle model.

[Shavnir]

Which uses the Vehicle unit as the units "base" as per page 3. and you get

Right, you're measuring distance to a vehicle model to find range for the non-vehicle unit. What part breaks down?

As an aside the Malan'tai doesn't care about models, it cares about units.

[Renegade]

As an aside the Malan'tai doesn't care about models, it cares about units.

Page 3. When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points.The embarked unit is using the Vehicle as a reference, but the vehicle is not the embarked unit.

[Shavnir]

Page 3. When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points.The embarked unit is using the Vehicle as a reference, but the vehicle is not the embarked unit.

Indeed. Since the embarked unit is not the vehicle then you just successfully measured a 6" range to a non-vehicle unit, have you not?

[Renegade]

Indeed. Since the embarked unit is not the vehicle then you just successfully measured a 6" range to a non-vehicle unit, have you not?

No, you have just measured to a vehicle, which is the only unit present with a model and therefore the only unit applicable.

[Shavnir]

No, you have just measured to a vehicle, which is the only unit present with a model and therefore the only unit applicable.

So out of curiosity what happened to page 66? I need to measure range to this unit to see if its within 6" of the doom of malan'tai. I measure and find its 5" from the doom's base to the vehicle's hull. This means both the vehicle and the occupants are in range.

Where is the mental disconnect here?

EDIT : I'd also like to point out that your logic prevents any effect such as commonly accepted ones like psychic hoods and shadow in the warp from affecting units inside vehicles.

[Bean]

Spirit Leech should therefore work, but it's the first aggressive effect of that magnitude, and they didn't remind us that it's one of the few exception of the "rule". Yes, it's not a rule, and yes they are not REQUIRED to. But a manual should ease players in, not require them to solve enigmas.

Could they have written it better? Yes, certainly. We can agree on that. All I want is for us to agree that, however badly it is written, it does lead only to one conclusion--that the Doom does affect embarked units. As long as you really do accept that conclusion, I don't really have a problem with the rest of your position.



No, you have just measured to a vehicle, which is the only unit present with a model and therefore the only unit applicable.

Not true. A unit doesn't have to be present with a model to be affected by Spirit Leech. All it has to do is be an enemy unit, a non-vehicle unit, and within 6" of the Doom. An embarked unit can be all three of these things without having any models present at all, thanks to the rule on page 66.

Nothing in the rules for the Doom or anything else suggests that a unit has to be present with a model in order to be "applicable" for Spirit Leech.

[Renegade]

So out of curiosity what happened to page 66? I need to measure range to this unit to see if its within 6" of the doom of malan'tai. I measure and find its 5" from the doom's base to the vehicle's hull. This means both the vehicle and the occupants are in range.

While, yes, the embarked unit is in range using page 66, the unit/model is that of a vehicle under page 3 as it is the only unit that reference can be measured to.

[The Mystic]

An embarked unit IS all three of these things without having any models present at all, thanks to the rule on page 66.

Nothing in the rules for the Doom or anything else suggests that a unit has to be present with a model in order to be "applicable" for Spirit Leech.

Just thought I'd correct that.

[Madness]

I stated ages ago that on a mid-level RAW it does affect, on a superduper OCD level RAW it's unclear, and that as it is now, we have no idea of what Cruddace really mean, which ultimately is what is important.

[Shavnir]

While, yes, the embarked unit is in range using page 66, the unit/model is that of a vehicle under page 3 as it is the only unit that reference can be measured to.

You keep referring to unit/models that are being measured to. Let me spell something out for you

Because of page 66 you can measure range to a non-vehicle unit by measuring to a vehicle model

The doom of malan'tai doesn't care what model you measure to, it only cares if its within 6" of a non-vehicle unit.

[Renegade]

Nothing in the rules for the Doom or anything else suggests that a unit has to be present with a model in order to be "applicable" for Spirit Leech.

No, but it does state type. The type of unit measured to is covered by page 3. page 66 does not change this.


The doom of malan'tai doesn't care what model you measure to, it only cares if its within 6" of a non-vehicle unit.

its still a vehicle unit that is within range.

I'm off to bed.

[Tynskel]

I don't understand what is being discussed on page 3, so I will stay out of the page 3 discussions then.

But I am rereading page 66 again, so please let me know if I am reading this correctly or not. It says to place a mini on top of the vehicle so we know that the unit is in there. If we need to find the range from one model to the unit inside the vehicle we measure from the closest part of the vehicle.

So people are talking what range means since the work disntance wasn't used? Are people saying range and distance is not the same meaning?

I am getting a bit tired now, so if I don't come back, I hope everyone has a great Saturday nite and enjoys themselves and back tomorrow to continue this discussion.

Yes, Madness is saying that He/She/It does not understand what the definition of a Range is, nor what is the appropriate application of the Definition of a Range.

This discussion is dissolving into mumbo-jumbo, obfuscating the reality: 'Spirit Leech' is not a weapon, it is an ability (p. 58 Tyranid Codex) that has a range (dictionary.com) of 6" that hits all units, whether embarked or not (p. 66 Rulebook), that are not a vehicle (p. 58 Tyranid Codex). Due to not being a weapon, there are no cover saves (p. 21 Rulebook). There is a chance that a Moral Check may have to be taken (p. 44 Rulebook) at which point failed you would forced to disembark (p. 66-67 Rulebook) and fall back (p. 45 Rulebook), and at any point one could not complete the fall back move, they are destroyed (p. 45 Rulebook).

CASE CLOSED.

You want to change the rules, discuss this amongst your gaming group- but you will be changing the rules, and don't expect everywhere you go will agree to your rules changes.

[Madness]

You can't disembark unless the model is exploding or inside your turn's movement phase. They can't move but not due to obstructions but because the models are not there so it's not a Trapped! situation. The range wording conundrum is a big stretch, but a valid concern none the less, in the rest of the BRB the term used for generic measures is "distance", "range" is ever only used when referring to weapons.

I change rules pretty often, heck, more often than not, and every place I've been to does so, so "everywhere I go" uses a different set of rules, which makes this kinda pointless.

[Tynskel]

It's a rule not many other situations bring into effect, poorly worded to add discomfort to discomfort mountain, specially for such impressive effects. And a rule that you get to use for only one model in a very specific situation is kinda strange isn't it?

Hahahah!

Dude, there are MANY rules that use p. 66. Every ability in the game that has a Range!!!

Cold Steel n' Courage, Spirit Leech, Psychic Hood, Shadows of the Warp, Brood Proginator, Aura of Despair, Soulless, to name a few.

It isn't Poorly worded. It is quite clear.

ANYTHING that measures a distance is applicable to units embarked, EXCEPT for shooting. Which happens to be the most common thing you do in 40k!

[Madness]

I guess it's more used than I knew, tho nothing that devastating, specially among 5th ed. stuff (why did you even list Cold Steel 'n' Courage or Brood Progenitor...).

[Tynskel]

I guess it's more used than I knew, tho nothing that devastating, specially among 5th ed. stuff (why did you even list Cold Steel 'n' Courage or Brood Progenitor...).

These are both radius based powers. Technically, you could have Straken mounted in a Chimera, and measuring from the hull to a unit outside of the chimera would benefit from Counter Attack and Furious Charge.

Brood Proginetor is a little more complicated to have the situation happen, but none the less, still works. You could be playing Apocalypse with your Tervigon mounted in a Super Heavy Transport. You would still measure from the hull to the respective Termagant squad to see it they get Counter Attack and the Leadership bonus of the Tervigon.

p. 66 works all ways. 1) subject mounted, target not. 2) Subject mounted, Target mounted, 3) subject not mounted, target not mounted, and 4) Subject not mounted, Target Mounted.

The focus of the game, obviously, is not p.66-- the explicit mentioning of shooting does 'imply' that the game revolves around shooting, and that Transports are to protect you dudes from shooting. The rulebook, however, has this rule for all these special items/abilities to be able to prevent the game from being completely about armor.

[Renegade]

Yes, Madness is saying that He/She/It does not understand what the definition of a Range is, nor what is the appropriate application of the Definition of a Range.

This discussion is dissolving into mumbo-jumbo, obfuscating the reality: 'Spirit Leech' is not a weapon, it is an ability (p. 58 Tyranid Codex) that has a range (dictionary.com) of 6" that hits all units, whether embarked or not (p. 66 Rulebook), that are not a vehicle (p. 58 Tyranid Codex). Due to not being a weapon, there are no cover saves (p. 21 Rulebook). There is a chance that a Moral Check may have to be taken (p. 44 Rulebook) at which point failed you would forced to disembark (p. 66-67 Rulebook) and fall back (p. 45 Rulebook), and at any point one could not complete the fall back move, they are destroyed (p. 45 Rulebook).




Why do you keep ignoring the rules on page 3? The model you measure to is the only unit that can be effected, if you have something that can effect it. If the unit/model that is between two points that is between to points, it is that unit/model that is considered for the distance measured.

Page 66 does nothing to change this as it does not state that the unit/model stops being a transport. 'Spirit Leach" cannot harm vehicles, and the unit between the two points is a vehicle. The rules are clear on that point.

[Shavnir]

Why do you keep ignoring the rules on page 3? The model you measure to is the only unit that can be effected, if you have something that can effect it. If the unit/model that is between two points that is between to points, it is that unit/model that is considered for the distance measured.

Page 66 does nothing to change this as it does not state that the unit/model stops being a transport. 'Spirit Leach" cannot harm vehicles, and the unit between the two points is a vehicle. The rules are clear on that point.

So if page 66 doesn't let you measure distance to the unit by measuring distance to the model what the hell does it mean?

[gcsmith]

No it does not stop the transport being a vehicle, BUT it does say if you need to measure to the unit, WHICH THIS RULE DOES, that u can do so by measuring to the vehicle, it wouldnt say that if you couldnt affect them, so therefore you can. The rule also does not say on pg3 that you can only affect the thing you measure to, and the pg 66 rule says you can.

[Bean]

Why do you keep ignoring the rules on page 3? The model you measure to is the only unit that can be effected, if you have something that can effect it. If the unit/model that is between two points that is between to points, it is that unit/model that is considered for the distance measured.

Page 66 does nothing to change this as it does not state that the unit/model stops being a transport. 'Spirit Leach" cannot harm vehicles, and the unit between the two points is a vehicle. The rules are clear on that point.

What you're saying here is simply not true. It is factually incorrect. There is nothing on page 3 which supports it.

It is not true that the model you measure to is the only unit that can be affected.

It is true that every (enemy, non-vehicle) unit within 6" of the Doom is affected by spirit leech.

It is true that an embarked unit can be within 6" of the Doom. (as well as being enemy and non-vehicle).

It doesn't matter that you're measuring to a vehicle. You can't hurt that vehicle with Spirit Leech, but, by measuring to that vehicle, you can determine that the unit embarked inside it--which you can hurt--is sufficiently close to the Doom to be affected. That's all that matters.

You're not required to actually measure to a model in the unit--that's exactly what page 66 does for you. It says, very specifically, that you don't actually need to measure to a model in the embarked unit to find out the range to that unit. It says that you can measure to the transport, instead. It says that the embarked unit can be within 6" of the Doom by virtue of the fact that it's transport is within 6" of the Doom, despite the fact that none of its models are on the table.

Page 3 says nothing which contradicts this at all. If you disagree, why don't you quote the rule you think is relevant?

[Madness]

Providing precedents (such as the ones listed in the last page) is what should have been done since the beginning, apparently this occasion is far more commonplace than I first thought, RAW wise we have a way to manage it.

I still am somewhat puzzled at why did they make a FAQ regarding Psychic Powers that prevent them from using this situation, which has only further confused people (such as me). Regardless of the precedents or RAW (to which I give little to no weight), considering the magnitude of the effects of Spirit Leech (which is really unparalleled) it would be nice to have it errataed so it becomes crystal clear to everyone. Personally I'd be proposing my gaming mates to halve the wounds to embarked units (rounding up) as a mean to balance the range exploitation, just as I'd propose to measure abilities provided FROM the vehicle outside by using the center of the model instead of the hull.

[Renegade]

Done thit so many time now.

Page 3 says nothing which contradicts this at all. If you disagree, why don't you quote the rule you think is relevant?

Page3:" For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead. When measiring distances between two units, use the closest models as you reference. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model."

Note that unit and model are used in the same reference as being the same thing.

Page 66. (and that line you keep quoting) If players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

This does not change that the unit being measured to is a vehicle so page 3 " use the closest models as you reference."

Spirit Leach does not effect vehicles, the model that is in range is a vehicle and as that is what is used as a reference, the unit in range is that of a vehicle.

Nothing in the rules change this, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

[Renegade]

Done thit so many time now.

Page 3 says nothing which contradicts this at all. If you disagree, why don't you quote the rule you think is relevant?

Page3:" For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead. When measiring distances between two units, use the closest models as you reference. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model."

Note that unit and model are used in the same reference as being the same thing.

Page 66. (and that line you keep quoting) If players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

This does not change that the unit being measured to is a vehicle so page 3 " use the closest models as you reference."

Spirit Leach does not effect vehicles, the model that is in range is a vehicle and as that is what is used as a reference, the unit in range is that of a vehicle.

Nothing in the rules change this, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

[Shavnir]

Done thit so many time now.


Page3:" For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead. When measiring distances between two units, use the closest models as you reference. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model."

Note that unit and model are used in the same reference as being the same thing.

Page 66. (and that line you keep quoting) If players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

This does not change that the unit being measured to is a vehicle so page 3 " use the closest models as you reference."

Spirit Leach does not effect vehicles, the model that is in range is a vehicle and as that is what is used as a reference, the unit in range is that of a vehicle.

Nothing in the rules change this, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

Okay lets go slowly here.

Lets say we've got the Doom of Malan'tai and some marines in a rhino about 5" apart or so.

You need to measure range to see if the embarked marines are in range or the rhino is in range. You measure and see the rhino is in range but the power doesn't affect rhinos. You measure to see if the marines are in range by measuring to the rhino. This does not change the fact that you are measuring range to the marines. You find the marines within 6" and they take the effect.

This isn't rocket science. Trust me on this one, I'm a rocket scientist.

[Bean]

Done thit so many time now.


Page3:" For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead. When measiring distances between two units, use the closest models as you reference. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model."

Note that unit and model are used in the same reference as being the same thing.


Unit and model are not being used interchangeably or to mean the same thing. That "/" is effectively an "or". "Unit/model is identical to "unit or model," and it doesn't imply that units and models are the same thing.

That's a fiddly bit of English, and I can understand your failure to read it correctly, but your reading of it is incorrect, and that needed to be pointed out, since it seems to have adversely affected your understanding of this rule.



Page 66. (and that line you keep quoting) If players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting) this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

This does not change that the unit being measured to is a vehicle so page 3 " use the closest models as you reference."


True enough. The unit to which you're measuring is a vehicle, and you use the closest model in that unit (the vehicle) as a reference for measuring.



Spirit Leach does not effect vehicles, the model that is in range is a vehicle and as that is what is used as a reference, the unit in range is that of a vehicle.


This is wrong. The model that is in range is a vehicle. The vehicle, as per page three, is used as a reference for measuring to the vehicle's unit, and because of page 66, it's used as a reference for measuring to the embarked unit, as well.

It doesn't matter that the only model in range is a vehicle. This is true because the embarked unit is also in range, even though none of its models are in rage. Note that the vehicle doesn't become a model in the embarked unit. It isn't treated as a model in the embarked unit. It's simply used, as you say, as a reference for measuring to the embarked unit, since none of the embarked unit's models are on the table.

So, the embarked unit is still within 6" of the Doom. It's still an enemy, non-vehicle unit. It doesn't become a vehicle unit because you're measuring to a vehicle. It doesn't get treated as a vehicle unit because you're measuring to a vehicle. It's still an enemy, non-vehicle unit within 6" of the Doom. Thus, it is affected by Spirit Leech.

It's very simple. Nothing on page 3 indicates that the embarked unit is not within 6" of the Doom or that the embarked unit becomes a non-vehicle unit, or that it is treated as a non-vehicle unit. In fact, nothing on page 3 is relevant to this discussion at all.


Nothing in the rules change this, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

On the contrary, the rules you've quoted change nothing, and do nothing to contradict the proof I've already presented.

Again, the proof of my position is sound. It is not contradicted by anything in the rules--certainly not anything on page 3, despite your attempt to further obfuscate the issue by claiming otherwise.

Try finding something that actually contradicts or invalidates my proof. Stop trying to confuse the issue with irrelevancies like this.

[gcsmith]

pg 66 adds an exception. that the unit INSIDE A TRANSPORT can be measured to. Whereas without that then you would be right.

Also if unit/model means same thing then does sir/madam mean the same thing. IF thats true most businesses think that the world is only made of womanly Men.

[Renegade]

That "/" is effectively an "or" correction its meaning is "and/or" not just "or" depending on meaning and context.


It doesn't become a vehicle unit because you're measuring to a vehicle. It doesn't get treated as a vehicle unit because you're measuring to a vehicle. Point to the rules and page that says this explicitly.


Stop trying to confuse the issue with irrelevancies like this. If the rules are irrelivant, why are you here?

[gcsmith]

He doesnt say the rules are irrelivent however, he says your argument is. And the show me where argument doesnt work, Show me where it says a unit in a transport is a vehicle. No where. While page 3 says you measure to the vehicle. Page 66 says that in doing so you may measure to the unit inside as well. This rule in itself seperates the vehicle and the unit through having to write a rule saying you can do so. Let me say one thing. If the Unit inside becomes a vehicle then they must immediatly disembark, as it may transport x amount of infantry models. no where does it say that said transport may carry vehicles (in case of common such as rhino) as such they could never use it, and no argument is needed as we can hit them anyway.

[Renegade]

And the show me where argument doesnt work, Show me where it says a unit in a transport is a vehicle. Don't need to, page 3 covers this with covering distances and examples. Beans argument proves nothing except that is his opinion of the rules, which I disagree are true and correct. Nothing on page 66 changes the fact that the unit measured to is a vehicle, all it does is give you a limit view of where the location of the transported unit is, not what the unit being measured to is.

[Shavnir]

correction its meaning is "and/or" not just "or" depending on meaning and context.

Point to the rules and page that says this explicitly.

If the rules are irrelivant, why are you here?

You would need a specific rule to say they change unit types. It is assumed in the Warhammer ruleset that unit type is immutable. You can keep quoting page 3 but page 66 lets us measure to the unit by proxy of the transport. You are flat out wrong and it'd be nice if you'd stop just crapping all over the thread with your anti-logic.

[gcsmith]

Pg 3 says u may measure to a unit and/or model according to u. That means that you can measure to a unit without a model cus you can apply the or. Which in this case means 66 is entirely right. also 66 does mention what the unit being measured to is, The unit inside the transport which is the type it normally, which is Infantry, however some vehicle ones exist, like the thunderhawk or the new Blood angels one aparantly. in which case then the unit inside would be a vehicle.

[Renegade]

You can keep quoting page 3 but page 66 lets us measure to the unit by proxy of the transport
Which in this case means 66 is entirely right. also 66 does mention what the unit being measured to isIt does still not change the unit type.


You are flat out wrong and it'd be nice if you'd stop just crapping all over the thread with your anti-logic. Back to you with knobs on. You did read JWolfs warning right?

[gcsmith]

And did you read what you posted. You just said it doesnt change unit type, Then how the hell does an infantry unit change to a vehicle.

[BuFFo]

+1

[Renegade]

Then how the hell does an infantry unit change to a vehicle. It doesn't, because you dont measure to an infantry type, you are measuring to a hull of a vehicle.

Since when did infantry have a hull?

[gcsmith]

It doesnt, however the vehicle rules say you can involve the unit by measuring to the vehicle. This rule means you can measure to the unit. And because you can measure to the unit doom of malantai comes into affect.

[Shavnir]

It doesn't, because you dont measure to an infantry type, you are measuring to a hull of a vehicle.

Since when did infantry have a hull?

When they got inside a vehicle. Wait, are you seriously saying when it says to measure range to the vehicle's hull on page 66 you think it redirects all effects that might effect the occupants to the vehicle?

Great now psykers inside transports are immune to psychic hoods. Now look what you did :(

[Renegade]

Great now psykers inside transports are immune to psychic hoods. Now look what you did Nope, cause that uses a special rule involving psykers, and psyker have special rules on how there powers work. Nice try at twisting my meanings, but we both know that these are done differently.
It doesnt, however the vehicle rules say you can involve the unit by measuring to the vehicle. It doesn't say otherwise either. What it does say is that it is the vehicle being measured to.

[gcsmith]

actually no, because the psychic hood has to be measured to the location of the psyker and since you claim its the vehcile not a psyker the hood has no effect.

[Tynskel]

Why do you keep ignoring the rules on page 3? The model you measure to is the only unit that can be effected, if you have something that can effect it. If the unit/model that is between two points that is between to points, it is that unit/model that is considered for the distance measured.

Page 66 does nothing to change this as it does not state that the unit/model stops being a transport. 'Spirit Leach" cannot harm vehicles, and the unit between the two points is a vehicle. The rules are clear on that point.

I am not ignoring the rules on page 3.

You guys are really grasping for straws.

p. 3 Only shows you how to measure a distance. Nothing else.

The distance between the Space Marine unit and the Ork truck is 5 inches. We normally say that the Trukk is within 5" of the Space Marine unit.

Now replace 'Space Marine' with 'Doom of Malan'tai'.

Now include p. 66

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

Beginning of the Shooting Phase:
Activate 'Spirit Leech'.
I need to check if the Ork Boyz (a Non-vehicle Unit) in the Trukk are within 6" of Doom of Malan'tai.
The distance between the Doom of Malan'tai unit and the Ork truck is 5 inches. We normally say that the Trukk is within 5" of the Doom of Malan'tai. Since the truck is within 5 inches of Doom, and I use the vehicle's hull to measure to measure to the embarked unit, the Boyz are within 5 inches of Doom. The boyz have to take a Ld Test on 3d6...

[Melissia]

Your crusade to convince people of your faulty ideals does not appear to be succeeding.

[Renegade]

and I use the vehicle's hull to measure to measure to the embarked unit Yes, your measuring to a vehicle, which seems to be the point you fail to grasp.

[Madness]

Renegade: would you mind answering me here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=5544)?

[gcsmith]

The point that isnt grasped is that allows you to measure to the unit. NOWHERE ON PAGE 3 Does it say that the type of the unit is the type of the model you measure to. If that is the case name me what the unit type of an infantry unit with a Monstrous creature Independent character where the only model you can measure to is the monstrous creature. We all know the people stay as infantry but acording to your own words they'd be monstrous creatures as thats all you can measure to.

[Melissia]

Nowhere does it specifically say that the Doom of Malontai can target an embarked unit, either.

[gcsmith]

No where does it say so in parasite, let me qoute the rule. 'if the victim was in a vehicle then then it is assumed he staggered out before dying' All it says is what happens when it affects people in a vehicle not that it can.

[Melissia]

Actually then for that specific power it DOES say that it can. It does not say it for spirit leech, which is the purpose of this argument.

[gcsmith]

Mellisia, it did not say it can, however we know it can because the rules state what happen when an eventuality takes place. However read the rule and show me where these words appear (this ability may affect people in transports). They didnt, now you can believe differently to this and i respect that, but i believe they didnt mention that because Acording to the rules the unit is seperate to a transport and that the unit was outflanking so could be affected, which when using the criteria DoM fulfills.

[Renegade]

Renegade: would you mind answering me here?
Done

[Melissia]

It says that parasite can have an effect on transported models, because it describes said effect-- however, this ONLY applies to outflanking models in a transport, and it only provides evidence of this specific power effecting them, and even then, this is pretty much given as an example of a very special case rather than a general rule like "transports provide protection to their passengers". It does not say that spirit leech can effect units in a transport.

[Bergermeister84]

I think both sides in this argument are getting stale. Both Bean and Renegade are simply pointing to the same pages since the first few posts of this thread. Personally, I think Bean (et al) has made the better case.

If you want to argue something new, I propose that models may be affected by the Doom of Malantai inside transports, but models inside transports may not be removed as casualties.

Remove Casualties (Pg 24)
"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

Embarking (pg 66)
"When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported."

Note that when a unit is embarked in a transport it is removed from table. Also note that when a model is removed as a casualty is is also removed from the table and not removed from play. If a model is not on the table, it cannot be removed as a casualty.

[Renegade]

NOWHERE ON PAGE 3 Does it say that the type of the unit is the type of the model you measure to. Not true, the Examples make that very clear.

The DoM has no special rule for Spirit Leech effecting transported vehicles, and the rules do not explitly state in the rule book that a unit in a transport can be effted the way you are arguing as the unit being measured to remains a vehicle.

[Tynskel]

Yes, your measuring to a vehicle, which seems to be the point you fail to grasp.

Spirit Leech says ALL non-vehicle units within 6" are effected by the power

A unit of Boyz in a Truckk, my previous example, is a NON-VEHICLE UNIT.

To measure to see if that unit is within range, the RULEBOOK states to MEASURE TO THE HULL for ALL NON-SHOOTING POWERS. That's p.66

Spirit Leech is a NON-SHOOTING POWER! p. 58 tyranid codex

p.3 Tells you HOW to MEASURE a DISTANCE.

You guys are really grasping at straws...

Playing DUMB does not make you win an argument. You guys are Not undermining my argument with FACTS. The Rules you are pointing out actually SUPPORT MY argument.




Have you even used Doom of Malan'tai?

Have you fought Doom of Malan'tai?

It is no more powerful than that Super Duper Unit called the Tervigon--- oh wait- the Tervigon isn't superduper.

[HsojVvad]

Actually then for that specific power it DOES say that it can. It does not say it for spirit leech, which is the purpose of this argument.

So since psychic hoods dosn't say it can effect units in vehicles that means psychic hoods have no effect if there is psyker in a vehicle then.

Thena again Melissia show me where in the rules it says units in a vehicle are immune to anything?

*edit* What about the mini that is ontop of a vehicle? Does he get hit? How come so many people say the mini is not on the table it can't be hit, but is ontop of a vehicle. So if the mini is ontop of a vehicle it should be able be effected then. Remember GW said in the BRB that it is best to put a mini ontop of a vehicle to represent the unit that is inside said vehicle. So since this mini is ontop of the vehicle to measeure to him, you use the base of the vehicle as the mini's base.

[Tynskel]

It says that parasite can have an effect on transported models, because it describes said effect-- however, this ONLY applies to outflanking models in a transport, and it only provides evidence of this specific power effecting them, and even then, this is pretty much given as an example of a very special case rather than a general rule like "transports provide protection to their passengers". It does not say that spirit leech can effect units in a transport.

You are reading that incorrectly. GW HAS to address what happens to a unit inside a transport: You cannot have an ENEMY model INSIDE your TRANSPORT. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT UNITS IN TRANSPORTS ARE EFFECTED, it just says WHAT TO DO.

The rule specifically addresses HOW to deal with this situation.


Spirit Leech does NOT need to address directly transports because the rules on p. 66 of the Rulebook addresses how to deal with this situation.

p.66 Is a RARE occurrence: Very few units have abilities that effect units in Transports:

Brood Proginetor, Cold Steel n' Courage, Spirit Leech, Shadows of the Warp, Aura of Despair, Psychic Hoods, Soulless, Runic Weapon, ect. ect. ect. Are ALL powers that use a RANGE AOE. They ALL measure to the HULL to effect the EMBARKED unit as PRESCRIBED by p. 66 of the Rulebook.

[Melissia]

You are reading that incorrectly.
No I'm not.

[/cue endless succession of this]

This is getting tiresome. I think I'm'a play some tf2 instead.

[Tynskel]

No I'm not.

[/cue endless succession of this]

Grow up, this is getting tiresome. I think I'm'a play some tf2 instead.

The rule states that a units outflanking is effected by 'The Sarge is acti...'

That's the clue: ALL units are effected- transported or foot or flying.

How do you deal with a unit inside a transport?

'If the victim was inside a transport vehicle it is assumed he staggered out before dying.'

This Statement does not state directly that units in transports are effected. It is a passive statement stating with hindsight how to deal with that situation.



You are telling me to grow up? I am sorry, but it appears that my reading comprehension skills are better than yours. You should do your homework. That requires you to Grow Up.

[Madness]

Nice. That "you grow up" "no YOU grow up" was indeed necessary. I love when people act in a mature way.

[Renegade]

All the exceptions that bypass the transport, give example of how that is done. Spirit Leech has no such special rules, it cannot effect units in transport.

Spirit Leech says ALL non-vehicle units within 6"

And Page 3 says that the unit is a vehicle that you are measuring that 6" to.

Quit with the insults children. This is NOT Warseer, show some respect and restraint

[Shavnir]

All the exceptions that bypass the transport, give example of how that is done. Spirit Leech has no such special rules, it cannot effect units in transport.


And Page 3 says that the unit is a vehicle that you are measuring that 6" to.

Quit with the insults children. This is NOT Warseer, show some respect and restraint

So...if you're measuring range to a tac squad in a rhino via page 66 the marines turn into unit type : tank? Because I hope you realize that's the crux of your argument.

[Renegade]

So...if you're measuring range to a tac squad in a rhino via page 66 the marines turn into unit type : tank? Because I hope you realize that's the crux of your argument.

No, what I am say is that you are still measuring to the units transport, regardless if that is also the location of the Tac Squad as that is both the model on the table and the unit with a hull.

[The Mystic]

@Renegade

I think I understand what your getting at now.

Basically. if you are measuring Spirit leech to an embarked unit you measure to the transports hull. But as Spirit leechs rule tells us that it does'nt affect vehicles, as that is the only unit to be measured to, Spirit leech would have no effect

Is that correct?

[Renegade]

I think I understand what your getting at now.

Basically. if you are measuring Spirit leech to an embarked unit you measure to the transports hull. But as Spirit leechs rule tells us that it does'nt affect vehicles, as that is the only unit to be measured to, Spirit leech would have no effect

Is that correct?

That is how I see it.

[The Mystic]

NOW we're getting somwhere!!! ;) :D

[HsojVvad]

now we're getting somwhere!!! ;) :d

yes! :d

[gcsmith]

However, the unit its effecting isnt a vehicle. All the rule says it doesnt affect the vehicle. Not that it doesnt go throught, and page 66 says by measuring to the vehicle you can measure to the unit. Either way we should stop arguing, we are never going to play each other really, and if we do we can have a friendly debate before the game :p

[Renegade]

NOW we're getting somwhere!!! You know, its only been 184 posts and 19 pages. Though I think if all the others are also included, its somewhere closer to 400+

Now for the sky to fall on our heads.:D

[gcsmith]

well at least we can understand your argument now renegade, which should make the atmosphere friendlier. But if it takes 400+ posts to get to this stage, the argument will never go away, unless one of us develops a internet mind control

[The Mystic]

The situation is this:

For- The units location is the same as the vehicles even if the units models are not present. As Spirit leech requires only the location of the unit to be in range it is subject to its effects.

Against- The units location is not the same as the vehicles as no models from that unit are present. As Spirit leech only requires the location of the unit to be in range it is not subject to it's effects as to determine the units location a model from that unit must be in range.

I think that is a correct summary of both sides.

So the question becomes is there a rule thats states which one of them it is definativley?

[Shavnir]

well at least we can understand your argument now renegade, which should make the atmosphere friendlier. But if it takes 400+ posts to get to this stage, the argument will never go away, unless one of us develops a internet mind control

I've understood it for pages, the fact is that Tactical Squads are still Unit Type : Infantry, whether or not you're measuring range to the hull of a vehicle.

[gcsmith]

well the rule we keep quoting states to measure to the unit u measure to the transports. theres also no mention of the model measured to is the unit type as that casues errors when your only in range of one model

[Renegade]

well at least we can understand your argument now renegade, which should make the atmosphere friendlier. But if it takes 400+ posts to get to this stage, the argument will never go away, unless one of us develops a internet mind control

I dont think that any of my posts went as far a name calling, I have been as friendly as possible :P

The rules going both ways are questionable, otherwise this debate would not have gone on for so long. I would suggest playing it how your group sees fit, but be ready to be challenged if you go elsewhere. In till this is FAQ'ed there are rules that are left flapping and being shoved about for an awkward fit either way.

[gcsmith]

I think you mean dont, and neither did mine.

[HsojVvad]

If we ever did meet to play a game, the only way I think it could be resolved is through the dice gods. I say 5 minutes of debating, after that roll it.

:D

[Tynskel]

Nice. That "you grow up" "no YOU grow up" was indeed necessary. I love when people act in a mature way.

No! You Grow Up! ;)


Internet conversations would not be complete without the 'put downs'.

[Tynskel]

That is how I see it.

'Spirit Leech' is involving a unit inside the Transport. The unit inside the transport never changed status to non-vehicle unit. The unit is still infantry. "Every non-vehicle unit within 6" must take a Ld test..."

p. 3 shows how to measure to the hull, and p. 66 states that is what you measure to effect an embarked unit.

This means that the embarked unit is within 6" if the hull is within 6". That is what makes 'Spirit Leech' or any other power work.


If you have a Psyker cast a psychic power from a transport, a psychic hood would measure 24" to the hull of the transport. If the Transport is within 24" of the Hood, then the unit embarked is with 24" of the Psychic Hood, and the power can be negated.

If My Psychic Hood is Embarked, I measure from the hull of the vehicle to the hull of the enemy vehicle to see if the enemy unit is with 24".

Spirit Leech has the EXACT same conventions.

[Tynskel]

The situation is this:

For- The units location is the same as the vehicles even if the units models are not present. As Spirit leech requires only the location of the unit to be in range it is subject to its effects.

Against- The units location is not the same as the vehicles as no models from that unit are present. As Spirit leech only requires the location of the unit to be in range it is not subject to it's effects as to determine the units location a model from that unit must be in range.

I think that is a correct summary of both sides.

So the question becomes is there a rule thats states which one of them it is definativley?



The Link between these two is the Rule that is on p. 66. "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull".

This rule resolves the question. The rule is stating that the unit is present, on the board, inside the transport/building. Any AOE/ Ranged effect that is NOT shooting can be measured to the Hull of the Embarked Unit.

Cold Steel n' Courage: I put Straken inside a Chimera.
I measure from the Hull of the Chimera and any Gaurdsman unit that is within 12" benefits from Furious Charge and Counter Attack.

Psychic Hood vs Psyker in a Transport: I measure from the Model that carries the Psychic Hood to the Hull of the Transport carrying the Psyker. If the hull is within 24", the Psyker is within 24" and the power can be nullified. Same works for Psychic hood mounted in a transport, and if both models are mounted in a transport. (Same thing with Runic Weapon and Shadows of the Warp)

Soulless: If the Culluxes Assassin is within 12" of the Hull of the Transport, the Ld of the squad in the Transport is set to Ld 7.

Aura of Despair: If the Broodlord is within 12" of the Hull of the Transport, the Ld of the squad in the Transport the Ld is reduced -1.

Corbulo/Chaplain on board of a Transport: You measure from the hull- if Death Company are within 6" they do not suffer the effects of 'Black Rage'

'Spirit Leech':
Measure from the Doom of Malan'tai to the Hull of the vehicle. If the Unit embarked is Non-vehicle (which only infantry can be transported), and the Hull is within 6", the unit is effected by the power.

[BuFFo]

Cats and dogs.

[gcsmith]

tysnkel very nice summery. Maybe GW should get u for FAQ

[Renegade]

Double post

[Renegade]

Spirit Leech has the EXACT same conventions.
'Spirit Leech':
Measure from the Doom of Malan'tai to the Hull of the vehicle. If the Unit embarked is Non-vehicle (which only infantry can be transported), and the Hull is within 6", the unit is effected by the power
Nope, because spirit leech has the vehicle clause. it cannot effect vehicles and when page 66 is cross referenced with all other rules that may effect this, the unit being measured to is a vehicle unit, why? because that is the only unit with a model present.

You still havent changed my mind that this is how the rules work. If you dont cross reference the rules, then certain elements of the game break down.

This is my position, you havent changed it in your many posts explaining yours. I will now take a bow and quit the discussion.

[HsojVvad]

Nope, because spirit leech has the vehicle clause. it cannot effect vehicles and when page 66 is cross referenced with all other rules that may effect this, the unit being measured to is a vehicle unit, why? because that is the only unit with a model present.

You still havent changed my mind that this is how the rules work. If you dont cross reference the rules, then certain elements of the game break down.

This is my position, you havent changed it in your many posts explaining yours. I will now take a bow and quit the discussion.

Please Don't quit now. I still don't get why you talk about the vehicle. Yes it has a vehicle clause, but The vehicle is not being effected, but the squad inside the vehicle is being effected. Put it this way. Units in a vehicle can fire outside to enemy units correct? So that would mean that units are in the vehicle, correct? So because if something besides shooting needs to reach the unit inside, instead of using th 25mm or 40mm bases, you use the vehicle it's self as the base.

I guess with all this reading I might have missed the point you made about units inside not using the footprint or base of the vehicle as it's base.

[Lord Azaghul]

So if the squad inside the vehicle moves back outside of the radius, while staying in the vehicle they would be unaffected right? :p Why not, we can't see them, we don't know where they are at in the vehicle...

I sure hope GW just errata's it to a pykic power.

[HsojVvad]

So if the squad inside the vehicle moves back outside of the radius, while staying in the vehicle they would be unaffected right? :p Why not, we can't see them, we don't know where they are at in the vehicle...

I sure hope GW just errata's it to a pykic power.

Why is that? So the power dosn't effect your units, or you just want a simple ruling one way or the other? To me it sounds like you don't want it to effect your units. :D

IF GW erratas it that it's a psychic power, that will be an admital by GW they screwed up. :eek:

[Madness]

They DID screw up. The transport rules are full of holes.

[HsojVvad]

I just hope it's not a band aid solution like no psychic attacks agaisnt a vehicle, unless inside. That will piss me off to no end. That is the easy way out and insults our intelligence that they can't make an effort to fix a mess they created.

[Renegade]

Please Don't quit now. I still don't get why you talk about the vehicle. Its becuase I have gone over this ground, not just in this thread and forum, but others as well.

Page 66 does not state that the model that has been measured to or from has changed, and it even says "vehicle hull" in the rule description. Page 66 does not change any of the other rules in the rule book that can be crossed referenced with it either, if this was so, then I could take a hit on the ++3 TH/SH terminator inside rather than on the vehicle transporting it and save the transport. Taking page 66 like people are doing messes with all the other rules in the book. This is why I say that because you have to measure to a model that is a vehicle, the unit that is in range is a vehicle unit as per page 3. If the spirit leech did not have the exception for vehicles then the unit that is in a transport could be effected, but it doesnt.

This ends my side of the debate. Choose to play it as you will, but don't expect everyone to share your view of the rules.

[Lord Azaghul]

Why is that? So the power dosn't effect your units, or you just want a simple ruling one way or the other? To me it sounds like you don't want it to effect your units. :D

IF GW erratas it that it's a psychic power, that will be an admital by GW they screwed up. :eek:

I just want to see the faq state yes or no on the whole issue. I think it has caused more problems then it has added 'fun' to the game.

And of course I don't want it to effect my units! Who does! :D

On the other side of things, I don't think this type of thing really belongs in the game. It just comes up as unnessarily complicated (so why does it effect units in vehicles, why aren't you 'targeting' units? where is the precident for this is in that game? why isn't this a pykic power? Why is Hilter freaking out?...ect) The whole thing smackes of fluff love getting carried into rules where the game dynamic doesn't work (well).

Oh on spot on the 'screwed up' thing. They still haven't apoligized for Daemons and Vampires in fantasy.

[HsojVvad]

I don't even think Tyranids should even have this power in the first place because Tyranids are not vampires are they? But the rule is there. We have to live with it now eh? :D

I think it's time for me to walk away from these debates, I am going in cirles right now because of trying to read everyones posts and debating them.

In one week I will come back, and if we don't have a FAQ by then, will try and start over again. This time with some clear rules on how to debate so non of us get confused, or at least me. I am slow and get confused easily and can only do one thing at a time. :D

Untill then, I hope everyone has a great week, and hope to have a nice debate again with clear well written posts and have the other person acknowladge what the other person has said, since some people do not do that, and it's hard to debate something that the other person dosn't acknowladge one way or the other.

[RealGenius]

Do I have anything enlightening to look forward to on thread page 22? No, I think not.

Thread closed.