"On a 6, I win.", or The problem with ranged D

[KaptinDregzag]

With all of the Eldar rumors circling about, I have seen a lot of players trying to justify that the change to distortion weapons to Strength D is no big deal. I have seen players ask rhetorically things like: "what used to survive a unit of Wraithguards shooting, anyways?". The answer is simple: Imperial Knights. The new Eldar rules make Knights a complete liability, because a "6" on the damage table kills the Knight instantly with no recourse (as it bypasses its Ion Shield and any cover it may have). This means that a WraithKnight (with dual Wraithcannons) can avoid the Knight (with his superior mobility), searching for that magic 6. When it comes up, the Knight dies. With 2 shots a turn, that 6 is likely at some point in the game. Multiply this by mutiple WraithKnights, and a problem arises. Honestly, the Wraithguard are worse, as getting one of these 6's per squad's salvo will not be difficult. So, what's the problem with massed S: D? It makes large, single unit models a liability. Knights, most Monstrous Creatures (like Riptides as the 6 bypasses their shield as well), heavy tanks like Land Raiders and Monoliths (not that they were hyper-competitive anyways), and many more besides. Funnily enough, even WraithKnights (as the first player to roll the 6, kills the other one). That's not even mentioning how much more efficiently the 2-5 on the Destroyer table deals with Monstrous Creatures and medium vehicles than the old S10 rules.

Are there ways around this? Sure. Don't bring these large, expensive models. Cast Invisibility (that solves a lot of things, actually). Maybe something else? (I don't know, I can't think of anything) But, should you have to? Should a single Codex and a couple of models dictate so much? Maybe its always been like this, to some degree. It seems worse to me though.

[daboarder]

NO!

As in no it shouldn't be this way.

Now I eagerly await the liguistic hoop jumping to prove you wrong and justify the D-weapon using everything form a bad understanding of game mechanics to referencing the way eldar used to be 5 editions ago for less than a 4th of the time they have existed as an army (oh but cant let CSMs use that justification)

[40kGamer]

Yessir. Knights were one of the toughest nuts to crack for me with Eldar and now I have a complete sense of calm. Although I won't be surprised if everyone starts getting ranged D-weapons in the next cycle. The IG Deathstrike missile may even be a huge D blast.

- - - Updated - - -

And I'm not saying layering this into the game is a good thing. I also don't think flyers and superheavy anything should have been brought into the main game either.

[Nogle]

should make tournament games go faster. just like D weapons do in apocalypse

[Mr Mystery]

Meh.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Anyone who has been depending upon Super Heavies to win games is just going to have to learn how every one else manages without.

Plus, I'm not aware we've seen the stats for the D-Cannon yet. Could go old Epic and be wildly inaccurate, or 2nd Ed where you scattered as normal, and then the template flipper in the direction of a second roll of the scatter die.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Do the Wraithguard's Flamers become D str? I ask because that would mean D3 auto-hits per model as part of an Overwatch... That seems overpowered to the silliest degree possible.

[40kGamer]

Do the Wraithguard's Flamers become D str? I ask because that would mean D3 auto-hits per model as part of an Overwatch... That seems overpowered to the silliest degree possible.

Word on the street is Str D but with a -1 on the chart. Still unbelievably nasty if true.

[Charon]

Do the Wraithguard's Flamers become D str? I ask because that would mean D3 auto-hits per model as part of an Overwatch... That seems overpowered to the silliest degree possible.

Yep. The D-Scythes have become Str D.
But you apply -1 on the table. Which means it is only 5 auto hits on vehicles that cause d3 hullpoints each on a 3+, only 5d3 auto hits on a wall of flame which kill (minus invul saves) on the roll of 3+ or just 5 templates which kill... you know how this goes on...

[Mr Mystery]

Seemingly so, but -1 on the table, or so I'm told.

There's fairly reliable info in the rumour thread, but as always be wary of Chinese whispers, and incomplete info, at least until the book or images of are available widely :)

[Sly]

There's fairly reliable info in the rumour thread, but as always be wary of Chinese whispers, and incomplete info, at least until the book or images of are available widely :)

If these rumors be true, and upon me proved,
Then I never played, nor GW ever playtested.

[Erik Setzer]

nor GW ever playtested.

Given the size of their staff, the rate they're pushing stuff out the door, and their desire for ultra secrecy (which would kill off almost all, if not all, playtesting outside the design studio), I don't think they're able to really do much playtesting. Some of the rules questions that pop up when codices are released do make it seem like no one really played the army much, because they'd spot those issues and fix them in the book if they had.

[-Tom-]

With all of the Eldar rumors circling about, I have seen a lot of players trying to justify that the change to distortion weapons to Strength D is no big deal. I have seen players ask rhetorically things like: "what used to survive a unit of Wraithguards shooting, anyways?". The answer is simple: Imperial Knights. The new Eldar rules make Knights a complete liability, because a "6" on the damage table kills the Knight instantly with no recourse (as it bypasses its Ion Shield and any cover it may have). This means that a WraithKnight (with dual Wraithcannons) can avoid the Knight (with his superior mobility), searching for that magic 6. When it comes up, the Knight dies. With 2 shots a turn, that 6 is likely at some point in the game. Multiply this by mutiple WraithKnights, and a problem arises. Honestly, the Wraithguard are worse, as getting one of these 6's per squad's salvo will not be difficult. So, what's the problem with massed S: D? It makes large, single unit models a liability. Knights, most Monstrous Creatures (like Riptides as the 6 bypasses their shield as well), heavy tanks like Land Raiders and Monoliths (not that they were hyper-competitive anyways), and many more besides. Funnily enough, even WraithKnights (as the first player to roll the 6, kills the other one). That's not even mentioning how much more efficiently the 2-5 on the Destroyer table deals with Monstrous Creatures and medium vehicles than the old S10 rules.

Are there ways around this? Sure. Don't bring these large, expensive models. Cast Invisibility (that solves a lot of things, actually). Maybe something else? (I don't know, I can't think of anything) But, should you have to? Should a single Codex and a couple of models dictate so much? Maybe its always been like this, to some degree. It seems worse to me though.

Well, there was an article written a couple of weeks ago on the front page about how Dark Eldar were the 'spoiler' army. If they go with a poison build, they mess up x's chances in a tournament if they have a certain list, and meet the Dark Eldar player. If they have lots of lances, they mess up y player's chances instead if they have such and such a different build.

Seems to me that this can make Craftworld Eldar a bit of a spoiler army in the same way and changes the meta. If you have a nice 'take all comers' list, that contains lots of MCs or big units like knights then you've now got to worry about coming up against Eldar as your 'spoiler' army. Maybe that isn't a bad thing if it creates a situation where people are more tempted to take more variety/cheaper units, rather than putting all their eggs in one basket and building knight spam / wraith knight spam lists (thinking that Eldar WK's would also mess up other Eldar WK's if they faced each other) - I'm talking 'competitive' play scenarios here, rather than friendly games, as I figure that in a friendly game you can make agreements between players before you even start if you feel that you need to mitigate each others list choices.

I have a friend who plays Orks, very well, and his view is that "boyz win games". Put mobs of boyz in trukks, give them a nob with a power claw, maybe have a battlewagon with a kustom forcefield or two, but generally keep it simple. With that sort of list, the improved wraith knight makes very little difference I think, because the heavy wraith cannons now being D weapons aren't going to make much difference to those boyz. From past experience, he's been fairly happy to just ignore the WK because it's just not putting out enough shots per turn to worry about. The new WK is going to cost more points that would then in turn leave fewer points to take other things... would the improvements to the new version be worth the extra points cost versus that kind of horde list?

Perhaps large, single unit models SHOULD be a liability. We're surely all familiar with the phrase about 'putting all your eggs in one basket' and why that is a bad thing?

[Charon]

The new WK is going to cost more points that would then in turn leave fewer points to take other things... would the improvements to the new version be worth the extra points cost versus that kind of horde list?

The stomp placing blasts all over his tightly packed units.

[-Tom-]

The stomp placing blasts all over his tightly packed units.

On a single model basis, perhaps, but it's not as straightforward as that though is it? Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but assuming going for a bound force, as I currently understand it there would be the choice of taking either the BRB style standard force org, or the Eldar codex's force org thing with the guardian hosts? If the former, then you're limited to one WK as it is a Lord of War, if the latter, then you have a tax of other units, like the vyper, included in the host?

As such does a small increase in points on one unit have a bigger effect in the long run on points boundaries - as in, let's say for example that you're playing a 1000pt game. A fancy unit has increased in points from 250pts to 260pts. Whereas you used to be able to have 500pts of such and such, plus 2 of that fancy unit, you now can't. Not without dropping something else, and dropping something else might impact the effectiveness of that 500pts thing.

So, yes, I agree with your point on the stomp attack, on a single model basis. But, on a whole list basis, does the increase in points mean that as the Eldar player you're also putting all your eggs in one basket if you go for a Wraithknight spam force? Are you losing effectiveness of other parts of your force by putting all your eggs in that basket? Does going WK spam make you weak against other types of list? (Either because you can't effectively damage them, or because you're susceptible to damage from them? - i.e. previous codex WKs and Wraithlords were quite easily taken down by massed shuriken fire. With guardians or Dire Avengers, at shooting range, the WK probably had higher points value targets to be shooting at, but a volley of shuriken fire would most likely roll a couple of 6s to wound, and start wracking up wounds on the WK / Wraithlord.

[Charon]

you have a tax of other units, like the vyper, included in the host

The tax is

1 Farseer
1 Warlock conclave
3+ Windriders
1+ Vyper

That opens up to 12 WKnights.
The WK WAS already in a very good spot and got buffed for mere 50 points.
So in the case above a 1750 army could field around 4 Knights.

The problem here is that you already think about how to beat Eldar with Eldar. That is not a big problem as Wraithguard can easily deal with the Knight, having all D weapons and ignore his T and his FNP.
There are other races too. Remember when the Dark Eldar codex hit and they were nerfed across the board and people justified it with "the will bring them all down to this powerlevel and steamline the codices"? There is nothing in the entire DE codex that can remotely compete with any Eldar unit.
I started Eldar in 2nd edition and DE in 3rd. And even as a competitive Eldar player I was like "Ok... this can only be a joke...".

The good thing is, you can really pick what you want. every unit is good and even if it is not, it is still strictly better than another armies equivalent.

And If you only take 2 Wraitknights, you can add in 3 Flyers which are lvl 2 psykers and are armed with 2 D-weapons.

[-Tom-]

The tax is

1 Farseer
1 Warlock conclave
3+ Windriders
1+ Vyper

That opens up to 12 WKnights.
The WK WAS already in a very good spot and got buffed for mere 50 points.
So in the case above a 1750 army could field around 4 Knights.

The problem here is that you already think about how to beat Eldar with Eldar. That is not a big problem as Wraithguard can easily deal with the Knight, having all D weapons and ignore his T and his FNP.
There are other races too. Remember when the Dark Eldar codex hit and they were nerfed across the board and people justified it with "the will bring them all down to this powerlevel and steamline the codices"? There is nothing in the entire DE codex that can remotely compete with any Eldar unit.
I started Eldar in 2nd edition and DE in 3rd. And even as a competitive Eldar player I was like "Ok... this can only be a joke...".

The good thing is, you can really pick what you want. every unit is good and even if it is not, it is still strictly better than another armies equivalent.

And If you only take 2 Wraitknights, you can add in 3 Flyers which are lvl 2 psykers and are armed with 2 D-weapons.

So, yeah, maybe the new Eldar codex is hideously overpowered. Maybe it's just so much better than any other codex that everyone might as well just box up their other armies and put them away in the loft. Maybe GW have looked at their falling profits and decided that it's time to close up shop, but to go out with one final hilarious codex that will be so ludicrously unbalanced that everyone will rage quit anyway.

Or, maybe it isn't. Maybe when people have played a few games it won't be the end of the world that so many posts are forecasting. Maybe it's just a case of working out weaknesses and planning new lists.

[DrBored]

Going to wait for the full codex to release before I freak out and refuse to ever play an Eldar player ever again like so many people are already.

I have a feeling that the only things we've seen so far are all the things that got buffed, but not so much on what got more expensive, or what restrictions there might be to different things. If the Wraithknight got moved to Lord of War, it doesn't make sense that you could take 1-12 of them. Most likely, there's a paragraph that explains that if you want 1-12 of those Wraith construct detachments, that you can only take one Wraithknight and the others can be Wraithlords or whatever else is in that slot.

Yes, it's frustrating to see an army get this many buffs across the table, but until we get the full story and the full Codex in our hands, it's pointless to fret about it.

I mean, heck, Eldar are already winning tournaments, so that's nothing new. If they continue to win tournaments, it means other players will either need to find ways to defeat them, or just join them and try to win other tournaments.

Either way, GW is happy since it sells models.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. They're still just Eldar. And that's means anything trying to hold an objective is stupidly easy to beat up. Anything which can ignore cover tends to do a real number on Eldar.

They hit hard, but aren't noted for resilience. Even the seemingly feared Wraithknight can be taken down in a single turn of concentrated fire. A favourite unit already seen aplenty, Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield can take it in combat. 3+ Invulnerable save, and the Wraithknight doesn't have a great many attacks.

Dark Eldar? I assume you packed your Dark Lances yeah? They ought to pop a few wholes in the big bugger.

There's always a way. Might just take you a few games to get your eye for it.

[daboarder]

The feared wraithknight was and still is literally one of the toughest units in the game mystery. Stop hoop jumping.

Its largely immune to poison, snipers, ID, Dweapons etc... completely immune to anything s4 or less so unless you are eldar with masses and masses of S6 or psuedo rending. Then torrenting it is not a viable option.

All for the price of a bloodthrister

[40kGamer]

Yup. They're still just Eldar. And that's means anything trying to hold an objective is stupidly easy to beat up. Anything which can ignore cover tends to do a real number on Eldar.

They hit hard, but aren't noted for resilience. Even the seemingly feared Wraithknight can be taken down in a single turn of concentrated fire. A favourite unit already seen aplenty, Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield can take it in combat. 3+ Invulnerable save, and the Wraithknight doesn't have a great many attacks.

Dark Eldar? I assume you packed your Dark Lances yeah? They ought to pop a few wholes in the big bugger.

There's always a way. Might just take you a few games to get your eye for it.

IMO Eldar offer a darn good balance between tough and hard hitting. You have an ace army by mixing Wraith units, Serpents (still hard to kill), Jetbikes and Aspects.

[40kGamer]

I shouldn't use the word 'balance' when I mean they do both equally well. :p

[Sly]

Yup. They're still just Eldar. And that's means anything trying to hold an objective is stupidly easy to beat up.

There's always a way. Might just take you a few games to get your eye for it.

Well, Eldar don't usually HOLD objectives. They take them on the last turn, which is easy in tournaments since unlike the BRB, you generally know when the game is about to end, with Jetbikes. When you know that turn 5 is the last turn due to time constraints, that is a lot better than moving out your jetbikes on turn 5 at a store, and the game has equal odds of ending on 5 or 6 or 7.

In addition, the real problem is not that Eldar are unbeatable. It's that their ridiculous amounts of Strength-D weapons basically invalidate a lot of other units. A LOT of units. Anything that is a single model, costs over 150 pts, and has no way to dump wounds onto cheap allies with Look out Sir, is not worth fielding against them (unless it's a Flyer). That's a good amount of Walkers and MCs. I wouldn't field Termies or Oblits either, or anything else that's more than 40pts per model and taken in squads. Basically, they turn the game into running: Hordes, Flyers, FMCs, or Eldar. Elite lists or lists depending on a unit of expensive models, no matter how tough they are, are just going to have too many problems against multiple D weapons.

This isn't so much an issue with Eldar. It's an issue with ranged D weapons. Frankly, tournaments are likely to just rule "no ranged D weapons", which is an unfortunate but necessary requirement in order to have a balanced tournament.

[daboarder]

Even with the BRB you have a pretty good chance of knowing when the game winds, and with jetbikes you can nab enough T5 while still having some units left over to nab some more T6.

Not to mention thats if anything actually survives till T6.

[40kGamer]

Jetbikes are pretty obscene as a troop choice. I had been running two min squads of 3 in reserve for late game shenanigans and they always did remarkably well. I can't imagine the insanity of massed bikes. Add in the ability to one shot anything in the game with multiple units, an improved farseer and a still resilient Serpent and it just gets silly!

[Kazzigum]

And we haven't even talked about the fact that the Eldar player is just gonna turn whatever they want to invisible and you're not gonna stop them...

[Learn2Eel]

Why do I keep seeing the argument that "the Wraithknight is not that tough because "x" unit can destroy it in melee"?
It moves 12" and has Battle Focus in the Wraithost formation. Good luck catching it with Assault Terminators.
Another unit I saw mentioned as a counter was a 6-strong squadron of Sydonian Dragoons....they have the mobility but I'll be amazed if they survive the Eldar shooting phase for more than one turn.

"Eldar are weak in melee, get them there." Eldar are the fastest overall army in the game with Dark Eldar perhaps being their only equals, good luck catching them in melee.
"Eldar are fragile." This is true, but they can spam guaranteed Shrouded and get lots of chances to roll up Invisibility for fewer points than most armies. Besides, it only applies to the infantry and the light vehicles; Wraiths and their "tanks" are extremely tough compared to their similarly priced competitors from other codices.

"Their ranged Destroyer weapons are short-ranged." One is 36" mounted on a 12" moving Gargantuan Creature, one is 24" on an immobile Artillery unit, the others are 12" and 8" on a 6" moving infantry unit that can buy a Fast Skimmer as a Dedicated Transport and gains guaranteed 6" Run moves plus the ability to shoot afterwards in the Guardian Host detachment. They also happen to be Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar that have innately Deep Striking transports in the Fast Attack slot as well as Webway Portals on cheap characters.

"Jetbikes are easily countered by massed rate of fire." The problem here is that Scatter Laser Jetbikes can spend an entire game staying out of range of Tau Fire Warriors, you know, the basic Troops choice that has a 30" range gun that almost no other Troops choice has. The Jetbikes have a 12" move to get into firing range with their 36" ranged guns, then can use their Assault phase "Jump" move to move back out of 36" range so even Fire Warriors literally cannot fire at them. "But advancing Fire Warriors can catch them?" If there are enough left to move up....who moves Fire Warriors up again? Don't forget Eldar are now also the most devastating army in the game at sub-18" ranges with their Destroyer weapons and basic Shuriken weapons.

"Jetbikes are easy to counter in general." People forget that the entire reason these are ridiculously good is that they have Objective Secured (Troops choice, people) and are Eldar Jetbikes, meaning they can make 48" objective-grabs in a single turn when necessary. That they are reasonably tough and put out easily the most points efficient long-ranged high-strength shooting in the game from a Troops choice makes them the best unit in that slot in the game. They are so insanely points efficient that spending points to counter them is often an obtuse and ultimately pointless move.

"Eldar have weak anti-air." People keep saying this and I keep scratching my head in disbelief. Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters annihilate vehicular flyers. Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters are very good against organic flyers. A Flying Monstrous Creature-spam list like the "Pentyrant" tournament list will find they have nothing left other than the flyers after one or two turns, and even those will eventually be brought down by sheer weight of high strength, long-ranged firepower.

"Eldar flyers will be destroyed by Interceptor shooting." Eldar are the best army in the game at 36"-48" because they have more high-strength shooting and more rate-of-fire with that high-strength shooting than any other army by far; Scatter Laser Jetbikes only exacerbate this issue. If they are really worried about your anti-flyer units (and mind, both Crimson Hunters and Hemlock Wraithfighters are only worried about anti-flyer units that have Interceptor) then they can easily focus fire that offender down, even if it is a Riptide.

"The Wraithknight isn't that hard to kill." It was already one of the most durable units in the game that would usually survive a full round of shooting with one or two wounds left simply because Toughness 8 invalidates most armies' heavy firepower, especially in an edition where competitively most anti-tank units are built to strip hull points efficiently rather than outright destroy things. Add Feel No Pain (5+), It Will Not Die and the closest thing to an immunity to both Poison and Sniper weapons and you have yourself something that is far, far more survivable than that 295 point price tag indicates. And it has two 36" ranged Destroyer weapons and is still very strong in a melee without its melee Destroyer weapon, so you absolutely have to deal with it quickly as otherwise it will tear multiple units apart swiftly.

"Wave Serpents aren't that good anymore." They still are, actually. It is the most durable Dedicated Transport in the game and still has the effective firepower of a fully armed Predator despite the one-use-only profile of the Serpent Shield while also having a very handy twelve-model transport capacity. Wave Serpents are no longer over-powered but those propagating the belief that Eldar players will avoid it because it isn't good are kidding themselves. The only reason Eldar players would skip it is if they are purely taking Jetbikes as their "infantry replacements".

"'X' unit counters 'Y' unit from Eldar." With their new formations and buffs to Runes and Ghosthelms on some of the cheapest psykers in the game, Eldar have the most efficient high-mastery-level psykers in the game. Unlike Necrons, Tau and Tyranids that have all been raised as "effective counter armies based on their firepower", Eldar get monumental defensive and offensive boosts from a wide range of psychic lores - the most ridiculous of which is Invisibility, a power none of those aforementioned three armies can ever benefit from. Don't forget "free" twin-linking from both Guide and Prescience. If you are looking at Eldar units in isolation without considering all the incredible psychic powers they can potentially (likely) get, you are doing your own theory-crafting a disservice. The only armies that can reliably stop them in the Psychic Phase are Grey Knights and Tzeentch Daemons, but you barely see the former competitively and the latter gets obliterated in the match-up in most cases as one of its biggest strengths gets hard-countered by Destroyer weapons. If someone says "Thousand Sons" I will laugh as that army won't survive more than two rounds of shooting with their expensive and surprisingly fragile units, and that is coming from one of the biggest fans and players' of the Rubricae in Australia.

Before someone jumps on me for spreading "doom and gloom" or "not looking at the facts", understand what I am really trying to say.
There ARE counters to the new Eldar. However, most of the "weaknesses to exploit" and suggested counters raised so far are NOT ideal at all.
Of the main tournament armies, they hard-counter Imperial Knights, they out-shoot Decurion Necrons to the point that the latter's insane durability won't matter, they make Pentyrant stars cry because they will still kill them even without their dedicated anti-aircraft units, they can deal with ANY death-star build because they have ranged Destroyer weapons in high numbers, they completely shut down expensive models while having the sheer mass to obliterate hordes, flyer-heavy lists get dismantled by a strong anti-air presence, armies that win on mobility and scoring are outmatched because Eldar are the best by far at that style of play, all on top of having a strong psychic phase.

Is it the strongest army in recent memory? Uncomped, yes, there is no question that this is the case. This is why I am very curious to see how tournaments and competitive groups respond to this codex as, functionally, it is still very strong even if you take out the "cheese".
Again, note that I am talking about this book purely from the perspective of competitive play, where it basically destroys the current meta. Regular games will deal with it as they have any other "over-powered" tournament army; that fact becomes invalid in pick-up games based on respective player skill, army list construction and a friendlier environment.

[daboarder]

Why do I keep seeing the argument that "the Wraithknight is not that tough because "x" unit can destroy it in melee"?
It moves 12" and has Battle Focus in the Wraithost formation. Good luck catching it with Assault Terminators.
Another unit I saw mentioned as a counter was a 6-strong squadron of Sydonian Dragoons....they have the mobility but I'll be amazed if they survive the Eldar shooting phase for more than one turn.

"Eldar are weak in melee, get them there." Eldar are the fastest overall army in the game with Dark Eldar perhaps being their only equals, good luck catching them in melee.
"Eldar are fragile." This is true, but they can spam guaranteed Shrouded and get lots of chances to roll up Invisibility for fewer points than most armies. Besides, it only applies to the infantry and the light vehicles; Wraiths and their "tanks" are extremely tough compared to their similarly priced competitors from other codices.

"Their ranged Destroyer weapons are short-ranged." One is 36" mounted on a 12" moving Gargantuan Creature, one is 24" on an immobile Artillery unit, the others are 12" and 8" on a 6" moving infantry unit that can buy a Fast Skimmer as a Dedicated Transport and gains guaranteed 6" Run moves plus the ability to shoot afterwards in the Guardian Host detachment. They also happen to be Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar that have innately Deep Striking transports in the Fast Attack slot as well as Webway Portals on cheap characters.

"Jetbikes are easily countered by massed rate of fire." The problem here is that Scatter Laser Jetbikes can spend an entire game staying out of range of Tau Fire Warriors, you know, the basic Troops choice that has a 30" range gun that almost no other Troops choice has. The Jetbikes have a 12" move to get into firing range with their 36" ranged guns, then can use their Assault phase "Jump" move to move back out of 36" range so even Fire Warriors literally cannot fire at them. "But advancing Fire Warriors can catch them?" If there are enough left to move up....who moves Fire Warriors up again? Don't forget Eldar are now also the most devastating army in the game at sub-18" ranges with their Destroyer weapons and basic Shuriken weapons.

"Jetbikes are easy to counter in general." People forget that the entire reason these are ridiculously good is that they have Objective Secured (Troops choice, people) and are Eldar Jetbikes, meaning they can make 48" objective-grabs in a single turn when necessary. That they are reasonably tough and put out easily the most points efficient long-ranged high-strength shooting in the game from a Troops choice makes them the best unit in that slot in the game. They are so insanely points efficient that spending points to counter them is often an obtuse and ultimately pointless move.

"Eldar have weak anti-air." People keep saying this and I keep scratching my head in disbelief. Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters annihilate vehicular flyers. Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters are very good against organic flyers. A Flying Monstrous Creature-spam list like the "Pentyrant" tournament list will find they have nothing left other than the flyers after one or two turns, and even those will eventually be brought down by sheer weight of high strength, long-ranged firepower.

"Eldar flyers will be destroyed by Interceptor shooting." Eldar are the best army in the game at 36"-48" because they have more high-strength shooting and more rate-of-fire with that high-strength shooting than any other army by far; Scatter Laser Jetbikes only exacerbate this issue. If they are really worried about your anti-flyer units (and mind, both Crimson Hunters and Hemlock Wraithfighters are only worried about anti-flyer units that have Interceptor) then they can easily focus fire that offender down, even if it is a Riptide.

"The Wraithknight isn't that hard to kill." It was already one of the most durable units in the game that would usually survive a full round of shooting with one or two wounds left simply because Toughness 8 invalidates most armies' heavy firepower, especially in an edition where competitively most anti-tank units are built to strip hull points efficiently rather than outright destroy things. Add Feel No Pain (5+), It Will Not Die and the closest thing to an immunity to both Poison and Sniper weapons and you have yourself something that is far, far more survivable than that 295 point price tag indicates. And it has two 36" ranged Destroyer weapons and is still very strong in a melee without its melee Destroyer weapon, so you absolutely have to deal with it quickly as otherwise it will tear multiple units apart swiftly.

"Wave Serpents aren't that good anymore." They still are, actually. It is the most durable Dedicated Transport in the game and still has the effective firepower of a fully armed Predator despite the one-use-only profile of the Serpent Shield while also having a very handy twelve-model transport capacity. Wave Serpents are no longer over-powered but those propagating the belief that Eldar players will avoid it because it isn't good are kidding themselves. The only reason Eldar players would skip it is if they are purely taking Jetbikes as their "infantry replacements".

"'X' unit counters 'Y' unit from Eldar." With their new formations and buffs to Runes and Ghosthelms on some of the cheapest psykers in the game, Eldar have the most efficient high-mastery-level psykers in the game. Unlike Necrons, Tau and Tyranids that have all been raised as "effective counter armies based on their firepower", Eldar get monumental defensive and offensive boosts from a wide range of psychic lores - the most ridiculous of which is Invisibility, a power none of those aforementioned three armies can ever benefit from. Don't forget "free" twin-linking from both Guide and Prescience. If you are looking at Eldar units in isolation without considering all the incredible psychic powers they can potentially (likely) get, you are doing your own theory-crafting a disservice. The only armies that can reliably stop them in the Psychic Phase are Grey Knights and Tzeentch Daemons, but you barely see the former competitively and the latter gets obliterated in the match-up in most cases as one of its biggest strengths gets hard-countered by Destroyer weapons. If someone says "Thousand Sons" I will laugh as that army won't survive more than two rounds of shooting with their expensive and surprisingly fragile units, and that is coming from one of the biggest fans and players' of the Rubricae in Australia.

Before someone jumps on me for spreading "doom and gloom" or "not looking at the facts", understand what I am really trying to say.
There ARE counters to the new Eldar. However, most of the "weaknesses to exploit" and suggested counters raised so far are NOT ideal at all.
Of the main tournament armies, they hard-counter Imperial Knights, they out-shoot Decurion Necrons to the point that the latter's insane durability won't matter, they make Pentyrant stars cry because they will still kill them even without their dedicated anti-aircraft units, they can deal with ANY death-star build because they have ranged Destroyer weapons in high numbers, they completely shut down expensive models while having the sheer mass to obliterate hordes, flyer-heavy lists get dismantled by a strong anti-air presence, armies that win on mobility and scoring are outmatched because Eldar are the best by far at that style of play, all on top of having a strong psychic phase.

Is it the strongest army in recent memory? Uncomped, yes, there is no question that this is the case. This is why I am very curious to see how tournaments and competitive groups respond to this codex as, functionally, it is still very strong even if you take out the "cheese".
Again, note that I am talking about this book purely from the perspective of competitive play, where it basically destroys the current meta. Regular games will deal with it as they have any other "over-powered" tournament army; that fact becomes invalid in pick-up games based on respective player skill, army list construction and a friendlier environment.

That was a brilliant assessment

[Learn2Eel]

Oh, and for those that don't believe me when I say Eldar hard-counter Imperial Knights, check this out;
We assume each list is 1850 points as per the "tournament standard". I use the Warhost detachment with the Windrider Host as my mandatory Core formation. Regardless of how I build the units, I can easily fit in four Wraithknights with Heavy Wraithcannons. That is eight Destroyer shots at 36" range on 12" moving models per turn. Your average Imperial Knight player will use five Errants as that is 1850 points on the dot.

Now for some facts;
1) Even with five Errants, it is impossible for them to kill any single Wraithknight in a single shooting phase, not to mention they have to be lucky to actually do more than 2 Wounds to one per shooting phase.
2) The Wraithknights and Errants have equivalent range and mobility, so it quickly devolves into a shooting gallery with the Errants being more aggressive due to their melee Destroyer weapons.
3) Even if we eliminate the potential to roll a 6 on the Destroyer chart from all of the Wraithknights which will both statistically average one 6 every turn and instantly destroy even a full-health Imperial Knight, the Wraithknights still devastate the Errants. 8 shots hitting on 3s for an average of 6 hits rounding up, half of these are saved by the Knights' (assumed) well-placed shields, leading to 3D3 hull points that averages out to 6 unsaved hull points dealt. That is 1 dead Imperial Knight per turn (possibly 2 if a 6 is rolled on a separate Knight) assuming average rolls, whereas the Eldar player loses 1 Wraithknight per every three turns assuming average rolls without even accounting for the fact that the Knight player loses 1-2 Errants every turn.
4) A smart Eldar player will keep splitting each individual Heavy Wraithcannon shot between the Knights to maximize their chances of rolling 6s and destroying more than one Knight per turn. This will in theory mean they will kill 1 Knight per turn, then 2 Knights per turn, and alternate from there.
5) This is without accounting for the potential for both Prescience and Guide from the Farseer.

And that's a scary list for a lot more than just Imperial Knights, folks.

[daboarder]

and thats without the windrider host doing anything

[Learn2Eel]

and thats without the windrider host doing anything

Yup, and Imperial Knights are a top tournament army right now. That Eldar hard-counter them alone makes them a meta-shifting codex, not to mention all of the other insanity present in the codex.

[Sly]

Yup, and Imperial Knights are a top tournament army right now. That Eldar hard-counter them alone makes them a meta-shifting codex, not to mention all of the other insanity present in the codex.

Without the Wraithknight, I can't see how the new Eldar codex is not the strongest in the game.
The Wraithknight is not only the best unit in the game, but it might be the best unit in the game since 2nd edition. Certainly Heldrakes weren't as nasty, and I don't think that 5th edition Falcons were as nasty.

So, add the best unit in 5 editions, to what is already the best Codex in 7th, and you have a facepalm moment.

[Arkhan Land]

As a person whos played three games this year against opponents with Primarchs as LOWs using ym eldar army, usually it ends with small handful of my units remaining and the primarch about 2-3 wounds to go.
in these situations, I think the wraithknight will fit right in. All of those games were all literally draws except one which I lost by a single maelstrom point. Previously I saw these sort of games as a pretty big ultimate challenge when they happened now If I add a wraithknight to my list ill probably view them as being as difficult as a normal game, just with added "fireworks".

[Da Gargoyle]

I just posted on another board about this and I can't disagree with what has been said about overpowered Eldar. But does it not fall to you guys to come up with solutions. For example I immediately went to the idea of multiple high power units for the non Dar armies. I saw a guy use missile launching units of 3 XV88 suits to ignore cover and re-roll hits. These are as manoeuvrable as jet bikes and a lot less prone to jet bike counter fire. As for 4 WK on the battlefield, I did not know the new rules gave them FNP, they did not have it before. But that said SM can field devastaor squads and las cannon tanks across the battlefield, even Razorbacks. I know razors are ronsons but field 4 of them cheaply + devastators then the threat to the WK can not be removed in one fell swoop. Add to this standard SM squads with grav guns, melta's and plasmas, things get tricky.

What I'm saying is that wraithguard should not have destroyer weapons, agreed. But there are options that are effective. How easy would it be for the WK to hit flyers, like say a squadron of Valkyrie, armed with las cannon? My son built a squadron of Laser tank destroyers, which are D weapons. A couple of Rip Tides are still leathal to WK, especially if they are a part of package.

So here is a challenge. What would you do with your army to kill the list put forward by Learn2Eel:

Farseer on a bike - 115 points
Two 5 man jetbike squadrons - approx 135 points each - (based on old codex - 17 for bike 10 for hvy wpn)
Four WK with Hvy Wraith Cannon - 1180 points (295 each based on what I heard)
giving you 285 points to play with and you are not going to fit Wraithguard and a serpent into that.
Maybe more bikes and say warlocks - you could get 5 bikes & 3 Warlocks on the table for 285. For Eldar this is a dangerous potent army, but very low in numbers. So the challenge is up to you

[Da Gargoyle]

Just out of curiosity, I don't play very many tournaments and the ones I have done are low key local things where they don't do unbound armies, to date at least. In the bigger tournament are unbound lists a part of the deal? Because of course unbound would allow 4 WK where as battle-forged would not.

[daboarder]

Just out of curiosity, I don't play very many tournaments and the ones I have done are low key local things where they don't do unbound armies, to date at least. In the bigger tournament are unbound lists a part of the deal? Because of course unbound would allow 4 WK where as battle-forged would not.

No tournaments do not.

HOWEVER the eldar book contains a formation which allows up to 12 wraithknights. the unlocks for this formation are trivial. Therefore it is relatively simple to include multiple wraithknights in a battleforge list and their movement to LOW is more of a boon to the Eldar HS slot than a restriction upon the wraithknight

There is also another wraith formation along the lines of 3 units of guard/blades (your mix) a lord, spiritseer and a Knight

Both these formations leave ample room for support option given the massively low cost of the units in the eldar book.

[Da Gargoyle]

Somebody out there must really love Eldar

[DarkLink]

I just posted on another board about this and I can't disagree with what has been said about overpowered Eldar. But does it not fall to you guys to come up with solutions. For example I immediately went to the idea of multiple high power units for the non Dar armies.

Do you think tournament players don't already bring the best lists they can? It's not like we've just been messing around and now that Eldar are out, we're all "oh, crap, we should bring our good stuff now".



I saw a guy use missile launching units of 3 XV88 suits to ignore cover and re-roll hits. These are as manoeuvrable as jet bikes and a lot less prone to jet bike counter fire.

Do you mean Broadsides or Crisis Suits? Broadsides are the exact opposite of mobile, and very static. A unit of jetbikes will sit out of their range, then jump up and drown them in shots and kill most of them in one go with no retaliation. Crisis Suits are more mobile, but are still much, much slower than jetbikes, much more expensive, and have much less firepower. The suit commander/markerlights that give them ignores cover and reroll to hit and the like are good, but they're vulnerable to being killed and are expensive.




As for 4 WK on the battlefield, I did not know the new rules gave them FNP, they did not have it before. But that said SM can field devastaor squads and las cannon tanks across the battlefield, even Razorbacks. I know razors are ronsons but field 4 of them cheaply + devastators then the threat to the WK can not be removed in one fell swoop. Add to this standard SM squads with grav guns, melta's and plasmas, things get tricky.

Devestators are pretty crappy. They are not a counter to Wraithknights. Nor are Razorbacks or Predators. No one fields them currently, no one will field them now.

[Charon]

Devestators are pretty crappy. They are not a counter to Wraithknights. Nor are Razorbacks or Predators. No one fields them currently, no one will field them now.

To be fair, SM should be in a good shape as CentStars should be able to get Knights pretty easy. I rather worry for the rest that can#t just wound them on a 3+ with a whole buttload of shots.

[SnakeChisler]

Our area we just don't play ranged D weapons unless its Apoc

You get the odd guy whining on that its in the game but generally if you point him to another D weapon fan they can go duke it out and if he can't find anyone he'll have to not include Super Heavies or Gargants in his list

You make the game you and your opponent want to play within the parameters you both set

[Defenestratus]

Yup, and Imperial Knights are a top tournament army right now. That Eldar hard-counter them alone makes them a meta-shifting codex, not to mention all of the other insanity present in the codex.

Oh... I really hate it for em....
:rolleyes:

[Lexington]

Again, note that I am talking about this book purely from the perspective of competitive play, where it basically destroys the current meta. Regular games will deal with it as they have any other "over-powered" tournament army; that fact becomes invalid in pick-up games based on respective player skill, army list construction and a friendlier environment.
Probably the best sum-up I've seen of this Problem Codex.

It also makes me think that taking up competitive drinking might not be a bad call, comparatively. :p

[Talys]

The two new knights may have ranged D as well -- or, following Epic, perhaps a quake cannon. May shift the meta too.

[Talys]

Why do I keep seeing the argument that "the Wraithknight is not that tough because "x" unit can destroy it in melee"?
It moves 12" and has Battle Focus in the Wraithost formation. Good luck catching it with Assault Terminators.


While this is true, Wraith Host only allows 1 Wraithknight, and it eats up a ton of points.

Wraithlord is 120 -- closer to 150 once you equip him.
Wraithknight is 295 -- 330 with shoulder weapons.
3x Wraithguard are 160 each -- 480 total.

That's 960 points, and you need to give at the Wraithguard transports, or else they're never going to get off a shot -- so a minimum of 330 points there. You're already at 1290 points; in an 1850 game, that only leaves you with 560, and you still need to take a Core, not to mention likely upgrades on the transport.

Which isn't to say that it's a bad formation (and Battle Focus certainly rocks), but in my opinion, just like Angel's Fury in 1850 games, it's not practical, because it leaves you with too few models to work with after you've figured out your core. Plus, this gets you ONE Wraithknight with Battle Focus.

[gredert]

you forgot 70 for the seer. NO upgrades this formation is 965, so you cant even do 2 of them if unbound allows you to take 2 formations as an option (not sure as I have literally never done more than glance at the unbound rules when the book first came out so yeah that may not even work). I am working on a legal list getting the most D as possible right now and its not by using this I don't think, I will post my best list, plus cost in $ to field it to see if its something to even worry about.

[gredert]

ok its not a guardian battlehost plus wraith host as that doesn't allow you to add a second knight from LOW slot without being 45 points over an 1850 list and there is no way to find those points as I only used 1 viper and walker, and the only upgrade I took was going to D-cannons. So to make the second knight work you drop the D-cannon upgrades meaning you have like 30ish points for shoulder weapons on those 2 knights. 4 ranged D that are actually going to get shots off isn't that scary as those 15 guard still need to get within 12 although with the guaranteed run of 6 from the big detachment rule does help I will admit, so if you don't have lots of shooting I guess this is an issue, but you have time to remove some of this, and I know my guard can do it. Also this list, in Cdn, will cost $712. So call it 550-600 in the US, and 350-400ish in the UK. All the scary lists I come up with are way more than the average person is going to put into 1 army that only makes 1 list. The people who will are what I like to refer to as dicks, the true D of 40k. But I am going to go back to work and for fun make the most cost effective D-mongering list I can....

[Charon]

Actually you just need a Windrider host to get access to up to 12 WKnights. A 1850 Army consisting of a Windrider Host and 5 WKnights is perfectly possible (leaves 17 points for upgrades).
Will probably lose against anything with Grav, but hey...
On a more serious note you will probably see some DE allies for taxi service (Dragons in Venoms for DS BS5 tank hunting or Wraithblades/guard in Raiders) and the WWP as pinpoint accurate deepstrike via WWP is amazing for Scytheguard.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"Up to 12 Wraithknights" - well, the full twelve sets you back at least about 3500 points, so you're not especially likely to see that in action.

[Venomlust]

Even 2 is pretty bad. I think 3 could probably be fit into a list quite easily.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Certainly! Hell, even one was pretty terrifying in the old book.

[Da Gargoyle]

For Dark Link - sorry I took a while to get back to this. Re your comments :-


Do you think tournament players don't already bring the best lists they can? It's not like we've just been messing around and now that Eldar are out, we're all "oh, crap, we should bring our good stuff now". Obviously I don't think for a minute that anyone was not taking their best list. But I've seen a lot of posts saying were doomed because of the D weapons. Not a lot of people are putting forward counters to the new Dar threat. And there are those fiendish geniuses (?) out there that could win with a Grot army.


Do you mean Broadsides or Crisis Suits? Actually I was thinking of Broadsides as I thought they were Jet Pack units, my mistake. However, the Crisis Suites are Jet Pack infantry and can move at the same rate as the bikes, more importantly they can deep strike, (As opposed to turbo). Marker lights missile pods and fusion guns still apply. (I might be having a chat with the bloke that fielded the XV88's though. He was using them as Jet Infantry)


Devestators are pretty crappy. Why? Two units with Las Cannon Missile launcher combo's will cause damage to a WK as he has to rely on a 5++ inv' to save. Way back in the day I used to field Devastators with an additional marine for each heavy, the extra provided defence against assaulting teams and ablative armour to keap the heavies operating. As for people not using them, that is their choice but if there is now a use for them why wouldn't you? They also have range for those pesky jet bikes. Also, if you field multiple threats to a WK or WG and your opponent attacks those threats first then the WK & WG are not necessarily achieving their primary role.

From my point of view, the shocks of the new codices have always forced people to rethink their force lists. I'm on my third Dar Dex and I'm changing my list. But I'm not blowing another $250 Oz for 2 more WK just so I can field 3. One with a couple of Wraith Lords and a Wraith Seer I just put together, finally, could make a dodgy list. I also think that you wont see to many high volume bikes with SL/SC fit outs. They wont deal with armour or the big constructs other armies field, don't deal well with armour/cover saves.

I was already fielding Jetlocks to deal with armour, and jet bikes to deal with infantry, with at least one cannon per unit. Before this codex I was working on a bike list because of its benefits v cost. I'm irritated that the singing spears lost their AP1 though. Now I have to rely on killing hull points.

[DarkLink]

No worries.


Obviously I don't think for a minute that anyone was not taking their best list. But I've seen a lot of posts saying were doomed because of the D weapons. Not a lot of people are putting forward counters to the new Dar threat. And there are those fiendish geniuses (?) out there that could win with a Grot army.

That's presumptive that there is a solution. Thing is, new Eldar are pretty much the same as old eldar, just... better. Wave Serpents are still very good, Wraithknights are crazy, Jetbikes got buffed more than enough to make up for any nerf to Wave Serpent firepower, and basically every unit got significant buffs even when the unit was already very good (e.g. Warp Spiders).

So the same tactics and counters still apply, just that those tactics and counters are significantly less effective.

Since I mainly play Grey Knights, I'll use them as an example. To kill Eldar, GKs have to get into combat. Eldar will outshoot you, every single time. Psycannons are a lot less impressive than most people seem to think. However, Eldar are very fast, which means you need fast units to keep up. That means Dreadknights.

Take max Dreadknights, Shunt straight into the Eldar lines, and hope you survive their shooting. Activate Force, and you'll kill Wraithknights easily, as the Wraithknight will only normally put one or two wounds on you, and you'll do a couple or so that all inflict Instant Death, killing the Knight. Even if they block Force, you take Daemonhammers for Concussive, so you'll hit first in the second round of combat, and you have solid odds of killing the WK. Then you just have to chase down the Wave Serpents.

That said, it isn't a fair fight. Everything has to go right for you to win that. If your opponent rolls a few 6's to ID your Dreadknights, you'd better hope you make your invulnerable saves, because once you lose a couple Dreadknights it's pretty much game over unless the Eldar player is incompetent. It's possible, but definitely not fair.


With new Eldar, it pretty much works exactly the same, except for a few minor things. Namely, before, you had decent odds of surviving a round of shooting. Now, though, when you run up with your Dreadknights, he jumps out his Wraithguard and hits you with a bunch of Str D. Game over, man. Game over. Str D wrecks Grey Knights. There is absolutely no recourse for you to survive getting shot with any significant amount of Str D. Fail an invuln or two? Dead Dreadknight. Opponent rolls a 6? Dead Dreadknight. It's not like you can hang back, because at range, as I mentioned earlier, Eldar will still just straight up shoot you off the table.

So your tactics and lists are pretty much the same, the only difference is that now you have to hope your opponent is incompetent, rolls poorly, and that your dice are on fire. If you don't get some combination thereof, you lose. And really if your Eldar opponent is rolling hot vs your GKs, odds are you're getting tabled no matter what you do. I've played that game before. It's not pretty.

There is no magic easy button GKs can press to counter the buffed Eldar. The figurative path didn't change, other than to get steeper.



Actually I was thinking of Broadsides as I thought they were Jet Pack units, my mistake. However, the Crisis Suites are Jet Pack infantry and can move at the same rate as the bikes, more importantly they can deep strike, (As opposed to turbo). Marker lights missile pods and fusion guns still apply. (I might be having a chat with the bloke that fielded the XV88's though. He was using them as Jet Infantry)

Broadsides are very, very static. Crisis Suits are mobile, but only have a fraction of the firepower of Broadsides. There's a huge difference between the two. The Eldar player can just sit outside the Broadside's range until they choose to engage. Trust me, I play Eldar as well. I couldn't care less about Broadsides. You avoid them until you're ready to deal with them, then you jump forward and shoot them off the table.

Deepstriking Crisis Suits, as I mentioned, have significantly less firepower. They can fit in lots of plasma (which Eldar don't care about as Str 6 shooting is terrible at hurting Wraithknights and Wave Serpents) and fusion guns (which is ok, but not great, due to the Serpent Shield and Jink and the Wraithknight's general toughness). Since you won't be shooting your Serpent Shield constantly anymore, fusion guns will bounce off of you. Suits with missile pods are very meh, they don't get a fraction of the shots per point as Broadsides and aren't scary in the way that plasma or fusion is. They can drop in and focus fire to kill a few units, but I've played enough games vs Tau with my Eldar against very good tournament players to know I can reliably win that shooting match. With the new buffs to Eldar, it only gets easier. I have more firepower and I'm more durable than I was before, the odds are just that much more in my favor. Just like with Grey Knights, the Tau player needs to try and do the same thing, it's just much harder for him to do so*.


*Ninja Tau is best Tau. Take a unit of Broadsides in a bunker with comms array, and a pair of Riptides. Nothing's killing all that T1. Reserve the rest of your army. T2, your whole army comes in thanks to the Comms array. Take like 9 Tetras, outflank them. They basically allow you to outflank/deepstrike exactly where you want without scattering. Fill up the rest of your list with Crisis Suits. Tetras throw out a ton of Markerlights, you get lots of powerful shooting that will basically always hit and ignore cover, and you can drop almost your whole army in exactly where you want it T2 with basically no risk. It's very powerful. The guy who kind of invented it won the ITC last year, he's a cool guy and a very good player. I've played against it twice, it's nasty. My Eldar tabled him T6, my Grey Knights pretty much got shot to pieces as soon as he came on the board.




Why? Two units with Las Cannon Missile launcher combo's will cause damage to a WK as he has to rely on a 5++ inv' to save.

Do you know when the last time I saw a tournament player who was actually trying to win play devestators? I actually don't know, I can't remember if I've ever seen a good tournament player run them. Ever. They're static, expensive, with mediocre firepower. That's not to say people don't run them, or even that tournament players don't run them. I've seen some very good players running Devestators for fun. They just don't run them when they're serious.

Let's say you play them against Eldar. A unit with 4 lascannons shoots at a Wraithknight. It gets a 5+ cover/invuln, then it gets FNP. After rolling to hit, rolling to wound, rolling saves, and rolling FNP, your unit does 0.79 wounds.

5 Devestators are about 140pts with lascannons. You get two per Wraithknight, but only 3 max. For your 3 units, the Eldar player gets a Wraithknights and about 5 jetbikes. Assuming you shoot first, you do 2.4 wounds to the Wraithknight. The Eldar player shoots back, and kills about one full unit of Devestators. You shoot him with your other two units, bringing it up to 4 wounds. He shoots another Dev squad to death. You shoot, bringing it up to 4.8 wounds, then he kills the last unit of devestators. Point for point, you lose that matchup. Try and shoot the jetbikes instead, well, you're static and he isn't, so he can jump them in and out of LOS, so even if you kill the WK, the jetbikes kill you.

There really isn't any magic to devastators. They're completely static. They're restricted to straight up gunfights. You can't move them, or you won't shoot, which means about the only tactical though you put into the unit is where you deploy them. They're not the answer, especially not when there are other things in the codex that is actually good against Wraithknights, namely grav weapons.




Now, grav kills Wraithknights pretty well, just like it always has. Drop pod Marines get to alpha strike, which is fairly rare and extremely important. If you don't alpha strike Eldar, you're probably screwed, which leaves a lot of armies out in the cold. Not everyone plays drop pod Marines. But you can drop in, grav the WKs to death, and hope to soak up the rest of the Eldar player's firepower.

He'll probably have some jetbikes, some Serpents filled with Wraithguard, maybe some Warp Spiders or miscellaneous. They'll open up on you, and do pretty massive damage. You'll just have to hope your next wave comes in T2 and does enough damage that you can win. That's exactly how SMs currently beat Eldar, and just like with Tau and GKs, that's how you can beat Eldar with the new book. The only difference is that it just got harder. You have to dedicate more firepower to killing the WKs, and he retaliates with even more firepower than before. SMs were much better off than GKs, but it's still an uphill battle that only got steeper.




The message is not that Eldar are unbeatable. This is a dice game. It's simply that Eldar were a powerful codex that did not need to get more powerful. Instead, they got significant buffs. You can still beat them, and since they play very similarly to how they played before, you can beat them with your same army. It's just that now you have to roll that much better, while your opponent has to roll that much worse, and you have to out play your opponent that much more.

[Venomlust]

I wish we could exalt or give rep, because that was a very good post.

[Erik Setzer]

That said, it isn't a fair fight. Everything has to go right for you to win that. If your opponent rolls a few 6's to ID your Dreadknights, you'd better hope you make your invulnerable saves, because once you lose a couple Dreadknights it's pretty much game over unless the Eldar player is incompetent. It's possible, but definitely not fair.

If the 6 you're referring to is with a D weapon, you don't get to roll an invulnerable save. While they "nerfed" D to give inv. saves on a 2-5 results (so you'll at least get them against scythes, for example), a 6 still gives absolutely zero save. Ditto for a 6 on a Stomp.

[Haighus]

At that point he was talking about the old Distort rule, he mentions new Eldar using D weapons in the next paragraph.

[Erik Setzer]

At that point he was talking about the old Distort rule, he mentions new Eldar using D weapons in the next paragraph.

Ah. It's hard to keep up. I thought it was a commentary on how useful Dreadknights are charging across the table at Wraithknights.

I'll just sit back and watch more of the discussion of pain on the battlefield.

[Defenestratus]

and basically every unit got significant buffs even when the unit was already very good (e.g. Warp Spiders).

I've said it a million times before and I guess I'll have to keep saying it.

The old Eldar book was terrible. It has clear winners and losers in each of the CAD slots. The internal balance was abysmal with transports that encouraged minmaxing troops choices just to get a damn tank.

I still find it hilarious that people claim that this is a terrible book because every unit in it is good. I figure that would be the hallmark of well-written and playtested codex.

(a.k.a. not a Phil freakin Kelly book)

[Charon]

People do not claim it is terrible because every unit is good but because every unit is superior to other codices.
And no. The internal balance is still terrible. It has clear winners and clear losers. You will figure that out when every other codex also gets a big power push.
You only consider the options as eual because it really doesn't matter what you pick at the moment as every other codex (except necrons and SM maybe) is strictly under that power level.
I had 6 games with my Eldar that weekend and I still try to get that dirty feeling off of me.

[40kGamer]

I've said it a million times before and I guess I'll have to keep saying it.

The old Eldar book was terrible. It has clear winners and losers in each of the CAD slots. The internal balance was abysmal with transports that encouraged minmaxing troops choices just to get a damn tank.

I still find it hilarious that people claim that this is a terrible book because every unit in it is good. I figure that would be the hallmark of well-written and playtested codex.

(a.k.a. not a Phil freakin Kelly book)

Well ~80% of the current units are equally good... which is a huge improvement over the last abysmally balanced book!

After playing around with the rules the only unit I truly dislike is the jetbikes. If the weapons were still 1 in 3 they would still be an excellent troops unit without the potential for massive abuse. 1:1 lets those who can only wrap their mind around playing a mathematically optimized list put the scatters and cannons on a platform that is much better than Vypers and War Walkers making the latter redundant. It's a shame that with so many other great choices in the book we're most likely going to see bike spam replace serpent spam as the new normal.

- - - Updated - - -


People do not claim it is terrible because every unit is good but because every unit is superior to other codices.
And no. The internal balance is still terrible. It has clear winners and clear losers. You will figure that out when every other codex also gets a big power push.
You only consider the options as eual because it really doesn't matter what you pick at the moment as every other codex (except necrons and SM maybe) is strictly under that power level.
I had 6 games with my Eldar that weekend and I still try to get that dirty feeling off of me.

Did you get the feeling you had one of these?

http://www.propertymanagementinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/easy-button-featured1.jpg

[Defenestratus]

People do not claim it is terrible because every unit is good but because every unit is superior to other codices.
And no. The internal balance is still terrible. It has clear winners and clear losers. You will figure that out when every other codex also gets a big power push.
You only consider the options as eual because it really doesn't matter what you pick at the moment as every other codex (except necrons and SM maybe) is strictly under that power level.
I had 6 games with my Eldar that weekend and I still try to get that dirty feeling off of me.

Funny,

I've played one game with my Eldar against BA, and one game with my BA against Eldar.

Both games I won and didn't feel dirty. Both were hard fought, exciting games.

[Da Gargoyle]

Aaah DarkLink, the beauty of the game is the variation in opinion. I read your post and we are not a million miles apart on most things. For instance, we both believe that the new codex does not make Eldar invincible. But we do differ on an effective means.

In regards to GK I bow to your overall experience, but I used to game against a bloke that used the opposite tactics to you. He had a set up that sniped at long range to goad me into attacking him. He also used Deep Strike with a couple of DK’s and a Dread’ in a Storm Raven and had a scary HQ with Psyker options. Not sure how he would deal with the new Dar load outs.

I think you nailed it with the “Ninja Tau”, except to say that XV8’s can take fusion guns, S8 AP1.

I do disagree entirely over the effectiveness of Devastator squads. As I said before, 4 hvy weapons guys and 4 additional troops, one of which would traditionally be the Sgt. Yes they are static, but the only way the Dar WK has a clear advantage is the capacity to get into combat. ML’s and LC’s are not mediocre and both force the Inv & FNP saves which are low percentage. In shooting the WK can only kill two marines unless he fires a template weapon rather than his D guns. Why? Because regardless of the number of wounds inflicted he can only get two hits and the D rule states that spare wounds are lost and cannot be reallocated to the other models in the unit. So with two Dev squads in a shooting contest with a WK they have a better than even chance over 3 turns. I costed the Dev squads at 202 points for 8 marines, 2 Las, 2 ML with Flakk.

By comparison, say two Land Raiders or other heavies, which have multiple heavy weapons would be toast in the WK shooting phase, possibly going out in one turn. Whereas the extra marines in the Dev squad are either ablative armour for the heavies or extra firepower against assaulting troops. And I built them that way to deal with other battlefield threats. For instance, jet bikes can’t get out of range of them because the JB heavy weapons have a 36” range and a max 12” move in the assault phase. A squad of 5 JB is just too big to hide from LOS. And Dar are one of the few armies still susceptible to moral tests after shooting. So kill 2 in a sqd of 5 and they could run, possibly off the board if they are trying to maintain maximum ranges for shooting.

Having said all that, I do believe that you guys do have a huge problem with Eldar now. I just put together a 1500 force to take on Imperial Knights and IG/AM. My force includes a Farseer and Warlock Conclave on bikes. I have chosen Telepathy for my powers and if I roll Invisibility and or Shrouded the other guy will be in trouble. I also have Serpents & Falcons & bike squads with a SC & Warlock. So I am not so sure the Dar are beatable in the hands of the good players, but that aint me.

[Da Gargoyle]

I retract every thing I just said. Yesterday I took on an Imperial Knight, a squad of Skitarii Vanguard and Sicarian Infiltrators. I had a serpent full of wraith guard and a spirit seer, a farseer on a jet bike with 4 jetlocks, a storm guardian squad and a defender guardian squad. Psychic Shriek killed 80% of the infantry. The DG bright lance took out a hull point on the Knight and the 5 wraith cannon shots took out another hull point on the Knight, despite, Doom Guide and Spirit Mark.

The Knight then tore me a new one. So much for those infullable D weapons. In fact, my shooting accounted for 3 vanguard and two hull points over 6 turns of play. And yes, in terms of points, the Eldar force was bigger by 250 and still lost.

I want some real power for the Dar

[daboarder]

statistical outliers and anecdotes do not a compelling argument make

[Fueldrop]

I'm an Eldar player and I'll be honest: I don't like Wraith Knights.

I may be showing my age but I feel that Superheavys and Fliers and strength D are an escalation that the core game did not need. They've been around in Apocalypse for ages, and were fine there, but adding them to games under 2,000 points or so seems... excessive.

I will make an exception for D-cannons. Since they're largely immobile, have very poor range for an artillery piece, and have to deal with scatter, having strength D is kinda nice for them. As for the Wraithguard ultra-flamers... I'm going to suggest it's overkill having them at that level.

Now get off my lawn!

[LCS]

storm guardian squad

You took one of the the only bad units in a Codex overflowing with very strong and competitive choices. Then you complain about needing "real power for the Dar." Argument invalid.

[Da Gargoyle]

Storm Guardians are more dangerous than you'ld think. A warlock for Conceal and a lucky roll on the psychic table, blade storming pistols, 2 x fusion guns S8, AP1- melta, and two power weapons, (Though they made these expensive in the latest Dex). I've shot tanks SM & CSM with them, blatted Tau and Kroot, and I would have backed them against the Vanguard in most circumstances. However, even following your point of view, that does not account for 5 wraith cannon, two bright lances and a shuriken cannon only removing 2 hull points on the Knight and, Psychic Shriek being responsible for 12 out of 15 enemy being removed as casualties over 6 turns.

As far as statistical anomalies are concerned, I'm the exception that proves the rule:o

[Fueldrop]

I actually rather like my storm guardians. There aren't that many ways for Eldar to get actual flamethrowers, and they fit my Uthwe theme nicely. Most of the Warlock powers are good for them and as a general rule mine manage to get something done in each game.