Khorne Daemonkin and Chaos Knights

[King Chud]

I've kept my Thousand Sons in 40K over the years, but I know they are no match for the eldar Wave Serpent spam or the truck loads of Imperial Armor. Chaos just doesn't get enough heavy weapons to pull through against those armies. That's been that way since fifth edition. I've been thinking of going with an all Imperial Knights army, but using the Lord of Skulls body to replace the upper torsos so I have Khorne Knights. It's a very expensive proposition to say the least. Now that Yoy Mart is blocked off. So this is to those gamers who know about the new Khorne Daemonkin Codex. Is it possible to run two Lord of Skulls in an army? (One for warengine and the other for HQ choice) I like the Lord of Skulls models, and I wouldn't mind picking up some khorne models if it made sense. Two superheavies should do fine against most of the souped up meta, but I really don't like khorne berzerkers on foot. They really belong in land raiders, and I think the Daemonkin Codex was lacking land raiders. Any suggestions about that?

[Nefarius Drapesh]

Take a slaughtercult and you may add up to 8 Lords of skulls... ;)
Khorne daemonkin have some kind of specific detachment just like nwcrons...

[Badtucker]

it also has landraiders in it :)

[King Chud]

I didn't realize that the Lord of Skulls has I 3, and that means Imperial Knights will go first against it, and 888 points, that's a lot to lose to a 370 point model. Anyway, how does the standard force organization chart work with daemonkin khorne? I bought the book today. I know about the special force organization like the slaughter cult, but are all the rules for daemonkin khorne associated with that? Can I take two bloodthirsters for two HQs, three berzerker squads for troops, and three land raiders for heavy support? All of the mentioned units are in the book, I am just uncertain how it all plays out. The chaos space marine codex has three hull points on its landraiders while the daemonkin khorne has four HP. Which one is correct? I think the standard force organization chart for daemonkin khorne would work out better than using the slaughtercult. You have to be prepared to loose a lot of guys in order to summon an extra bloodthirster.

[Tokunator]

And Summoning that Bloodthirster is garbage, because it will have to deepstrike and thus count as swooping/flying. So if by a miracle (or your opponent killing 8 of your units turn 1) you have 8 points turn two, it will deepstrike and use its 1 S6 shot. Turn 3 it can land and have another single shot, then facetank a whole army's worth of shooting. If it still lives turn 4, it finally gets to charge. And this is the perfect case of summoning it on turn 2. Honestly, the Bloodtide rule is ****e to summon Bloodthirsters, not that they are pretty bad for their points to start with.

Overall, the special detachment is not that great as a lot of good units require bad units to be taken at the same time, so depending on what you want to take, I'd try writing up a list with it and the CAD and see where you get more for your points.

Frankly, I am let down by this book. If you want to play CSM with some chance of matching tier 1 lists, go full Nurgle. T6 Bikers with a Lord with 2+ armour from Crimson Slaughter and a level 3 (no mark) for Invisibility are the way to go, 5 Plague Marines in a Rhino are 2 1/2 special weapons at a low cost, so bring 2-3 of those, then season with Nurgle Spawn, Heldrakes, Maulerfiends and Forgefiends (maybe go double CAD with some cheap cultists and a second Sorcerer as you can easily fill 6 FA slots) The idea is to overwhelm a flank by turn 2 and once you are in melee, few things can stop T6 spam.

[Mr Mystery]

Damn that free Bloodthirster.

Imagine having an aspiring champion birth a rock hard Greater Daemon. I can't think of a plus side to a Greater Daemon suddenly turning up either. Not a one.

[daboarder]

Damn that free Bloodthirster.

Imagine having an aspiring champion birth a rock hard Greater Daemon. I can't think of a plus side to a Greater Daemon suddenly turning up either. Not a one.

so I dont think you get it. see theres these things called rules, and they prevent that bloodthirster doing ANYTHING of practical use until the third turn AFTER its summoned....(how long are your games?)

Its when you and others make silly and blindly ignorant comments like this that really show just how oblivious to poor game design you lot are

[Gwhizz84]

so I dont think you get it. see theres these things called rules, and they prevent that bloodthirster doing ANYTHING of practical use until the third turn AFTER its summoned....(how long are your games?)

Its when you and others make silly and blindly ignorant comments like this that really show just how oblivious to poor game design you lot are

So having a free, quite hard to kill and quite high danger priority model in the middle of your opponent's army to "facetank" all his shooting, so your paid for units don't get shot is of no benefit at all? Serious;y I know chaos players have quite a lot to ***** about, but I don't know how you're managing to turn a free bloodthirster into some kind of disadvantage.

[Mr Mystery]

Also....third turn after its summoned?

Only got the data cards so far, and not sure how you're working that out?

One can also instead summon other units, or buff your army.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Imagine having an aspiring champion birth a rock hard Greater Daemon.N'aw, that's an option in the upcoming Daemonkin Slaanesh.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh my!

[Tokunator]

So having a free, quite hard to kill and quite high danger priority model in the middle of your opponent's army to "facetank" all his shooting, so your paid for units don't get shot is of no benefit at all? Serious;y I know chaos players have quite a lot to ***** about, but I don't know how you're managing to turn a free bloodthirster into some kind of disadvantage.

But the thing you don't see is that it is not free. First of all, you need to either buy a 65 points axe and sacrifice the wielder, potentially giving up Slay the Warlord, or get 8 Bloodtide points with an army that has barely any ranged options, so you either have to rush into melee, which really doesn't work in 7th edition, or hope your units get slaughtered by the enemy.

Secondly, there is the cost of having to run an all-Khorne army or at least an all-Khorne detachment (which is also weak as only a part of your army can gather Bloodtide points), which does not have access to most of the good Chaos units.

Thirdly, having jumped through all those hoops, you still only have a Bloodthirster the opponent can ignore for two turns before it becomes a threat to them. In fact, it is always better to ignore it unless you have a sure way to kill it, as only wounding it will make it possible to have it fail a Grounding test which would let it charge earlier on.

[Tokunator]

Also....third turn after its summoned?

Only got the data cards so far, and not sure how you're working that out?

One can also instead summon other units, or buff your army.

It takes three turns because it automatically swoops as it is deploy by deepstriking and deepstriking flying monstrous creatures always count as swooping (see rules of Flying Monstrous Creatures, the paragraph on 'Deployment') so they cannot charge turn 1. They can also not charge the turn they change flying modes, so when they change modes to go gliding (moving like Jump Monstrous Creatures) on their second turn, they still cannot charge (same page, second column, paragraph 1). The earliest they can charge is thus three turns after being summoned.

The only exception is if your opponent is dumb enough to shot you and cause a wound to cause a Grounding check. If you fail that check and likely take another wound as it is a S9 AP1 hit, you can then charge on the next turn as you began your turn on the ground. But once people notice that possibility, good players either ignore it or hammer it with enough to down it straight away.

This is the reason why the only FMCs that see regular play are those that shoot, as they are able to use their full output every turn. Melee FMCs are just not worth their high point cost at the moment.

[Charon]

So having a free, quite hard to kill and quite high danger priority model in the middle of your opponent's army to "facetank" all his shooting, so your paid for units don't get shot is of no benefit at all? Serious;y I know chaos players have quite a lot to ***** about, but I don't know how you're managing to turn a free bloodthirster into some kind of disadvantage.

What makes you think the Bloodthirster is "free"?
For one you have to pay a unit tax, have the risk of failing your Ld if you choose to sacrifice a "cheap" character (and with it all accumulated bloodpoints).
Further if you want to spawn it early (which you need to do as it was already pointed out he will be completely useless for full 2 rounds. deepstrike -> ground -> assault) you need around 6 sacrificial units that you simply throw away (summon after turn 4 is completely pointless) after you will need at least 2 turns to actually get your army to do something.
Which means your CHEAPEST Option in suicide squads comes down to 420 points to summon a 250 points model.
That is by no means "FREE".
If you want something for "free" look at Chapter traits. Thats 100% free.

[Gwhizz84]

What makes you think the Bloodthirster is "free"?
For one you have to pay a unit tax, have the risk of failing your Ld if you choose to sacrifice a "cheap" character (and with it all accumulated bloodpoints).
Further if you want to spawn it early (which you need to do as it was already pointed out he will be completely useless for full 2 rounds. deepstrike -> ground -> assault) you need around 6 sacrificial units that you simply throw away (summon after turn 4 is completely pointless) after you will need at least 2 turns to actually get your army to do something.
Which means your CHEAPEST Option in suicide squads comes down to 420 points to summon a 250 points model.
That is by no means "FREE".
If you want something for "free" look at Chapter traits. Thats 100% free. It's free. If you ran the exact same army before this codex was released, would you even have a chance at getting a bloodthirster for 0 points? No? then that's free. Chapter tactics are also free, and coincidently not always useful, imagine that! I play blood angels, I can't use rage and furious charge on turn 1, oh they must be useless then. If you offered me a summonable stormraven that can fly around for 2 turns without doing more than firing one weapon, before dropping a vanguard squad able to charge, I'd probably be quite happy with that.If you don't want to run a full khorne list, then that's your perogative, no one is forcing you to after all, but complaining that you've got the option to, with add benefits, is just stupid. This is why I don't usually comment on these boards, because the constant whining gets really tiresome you know? It seems like you ask for more options > get more options, they're not 100% overpowered so they're immediately ****.

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But the thing you don't see is that it is not free. First of all, you need to either buy a 65 points axe and sacrifice the wielder, potentially giving up Slay the Warlord, or get 8 Bloodtide points with an army that has barely any ranged options, so you either have to rush into melee, which really doesn't work in 7th edition, or hope your units get slaughtered by the enemy.

Secondly, there is the cost of having to run an all-Khorne army or at least an all-Khorne detachment (which is also weak as only a part of your army can gather Bloodtide points), which does not have access to most of the good Chaos units.

Thirdly, having jumped through all those hoops, you still only have a Bloodthirster the opponent can ignore for two turns before it becomes a threat to them. In fact, it is always better to ignore it unless you have a sure way to kill it, as only wounding it will make it possible to have it fail a Grounding test which would let it charge earlier on.
See my previous points regarding it being 'free'. Also why would you bother buying a khorne dedicated book if you weren't planning on running a khornate army? I know the marine book outstrips the chaos book, as everyone (omg chapter tactics, chapter tactics, chapter tactics omg) is fully aware, but there's a book if you want to run a mixed force, and I imagine GW will released dedicated god books if they're popular.

To answer your last point, yeah your 'thirster isn't gonna do anything until it's grounded, however you're still forcing your opponent to think about it, giving yourself different tactical options. The sheer worry that it -may- get into combat might be enough for him to throw more firepower than needed it, earlier than needed, or make other mistakes. And it's still firepower not directed at your other units which will be running up to smash faces asap. Hell, before the time it's ready to attack anything all his units might be in combat anyway, unable to kill it and then you have a 'thirster running amok in his back line.

[Mr Mystery]

Blood Tithe is a fun addition which doesn't appear to come at a premium.

Blood Thirster not tickling your fancy? Summon some Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Cannon of Khorne or Bloodcrushers. If not, then pick something to perk up your army.

[Tokunator]

It's free. If you ran the exact same army before this codex was released, would you even have a chance at getting a bloodthirster for 0 points? No? then that's free. Chapter tactics are also free, and coincidently not always useful, imagine that! I play blood angels, I can't use rage and furious charge on turn 1, oh they must be useless then. If you offered me a summonable stormraven that can fly around for 2 turns without doing more than firing one weapon, before dropping a vanguard squad able to charge, I'd probably be quite happy with that.If you don't want to run a full khorne list, then that's your perogative, no one is forcing you to after all, but complaining that you've got the option to, with add benefits, is just stupid. This is why I don't usually comment on these boards, because the constant whining gets really tiresome you know? It seems like you ask for more options > get more options, they're not 100% overpowered so they're immediately ****.

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See my previous points regarding it being 'free'. Also why would you bother buying a khorne dedicated book if you weren't planning on running a khornate army? I know the marine book outstrips the chaos book, as everyone (omg chapter tactics, chapter tactics, chapter tactics omg) is fully aware, but there's a book if you want to run a mixed force, and I imagine GW will released dedicated god books if they're popular.

To answer your last point, yeah your 'thirster isn't gonna do anything until it's grounded, however you're still forcing your opponent to think about it, giving yourself different tactical options. The sheer worry that it -may- get into combat might be enough for him to throw more firepower than needed it, earlier than needed, or make other mistakes. And it's still firepower not directed at your other units which will be running up to smash faces asap. Hell, before the time it's ready to attack anything all his units might be in combat anyway, unable to kill it and then you have a 'thirster running amok in his back line.


But the thing that invalidates your argument about it being free does not take into account that you have to buy those other units and sacrifice them, which means that you cannot use those points to buy good units.

Then you also need to pay points for the Champion, which means a Marine champion as a Cultist Champion is only Ld8, so will fail the test often enough to make it a waste. That means a minimum of 25 points, so after paying points for the sacrificial units, you need to add the points for the champion too.

You are also not really forcing your opponent to think about it, once they figure out that the Bloodthirster can do little to nothing until it has spent a turn on the ground, at which stage it no longer benefits from the 'snapshots only' protection and will die extremely fast for a 250 points unit.

Sure, Blood Angels cannot use Rage and Furious Charge turn 1, but they can use them from turn 1 onwards and do not have to jump through hoops to do so. Your Rage and Furious Charge is always 'on', whereas Bloodtide requires gathering points.

I agree that Chaos is much stronger than people give it credit for, but Khorne is not strong.

And as to why people might buy the book, maybe they want a list that is both fluffy and can hold its own on the field. Right now, melee focused lists only work if they have access to mobility, either from Bikes, Assault Transports or Jump Packs. Khorne having access to none of these options for its Troops choices makes it a poor choice for a melee-centered army, which is a shame and poor game design in my opinion.
Furthermore, look at how the book is marketed to new customers: 'Use this and you can summon free Bloodthirsters!' 'FREE BLOODTHIRSTERS!' Then you try it and see, no there is no free Bloodthirster unless you are really lucky or your opponent is helping a lot.

[Mr Mystery]

Sorry dude, but you can't claim the cost of a unit you'd take anyway as a tax to get a Bloodthirster.

[Charon]

It's free. If you ran the exact same army before this codex was released, would you even have a chance at getting a bloodthirster for 0 points? No? then that's free. Chapter tactics are also free, and coincidently not always useful, imagine that! I play blood angels, I can't use rage and furious charge on turn 1, oh they must be useless then. If you offered me a summonable stormraven that can fly around for 2 turns without doing more than firing one weapon, before dropping a vanguard squad able to charge, I'd probably be quite happy with that.If you don't want to run a full khorne list, then that's your perogative, no one is forcing you to after all, but complaining that you've got the option to, with add benefits, is just stupid. This is why I don't usually comment on these boards, because the constant whining gets really tiresome you know? It seems like you ask for more options > get more options, they're not 100% overpowered so they're immediately ****.

Thats exactly the point. I would not run the exact same army as nothing would require me to do it. The best use of Bloodpoints is probably handing out FnP, not to summon a weak unit by sacrificing a lot of units that are worth double the points.
You can't use rage and furious charge turn 1? Buhuu... poor little Marine. Actually you can. It is always "on". There is no points you have to accumulate to get it. All you have to do is assault. You do note even have to sacrifice 400 points to get your special rules. You just have it. Permanently.
I offer you the summonable stormraven. No problem. You can have it. Prequisit is buying melee only scouts with vet upgrade, succeedding on a ld test and the scouts (around 500 point of them) have to die till round 4.
After that you will get a stormraven for free which is only able to fire his TL Heavy Bolter. After he drops the Vanguard he is off the table. Deal? Because that is the deal for the "free Bloodthirster".
Im so tired of spoiled Marine Players...

[daboarder]

Also....third turn after its summoned?

Only got the data cards so far, and not sure how you're working that out?

One can also instead summon other units, or buff your army.

summon Tx (Deepstriking = swooping mode)

Summon Tx+1 (Drop to glide mode)

Summon Tx+3 (FINALLY you get to charge)

Not rocket science

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Blood Tithe is a fun addition which doesn't appear to come at a premium.

Blood Thirster not tickling your fancy? Summon some Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Cannon of Khorne or Bloodcrushers. If not, then pick something to perk up your army.

there you go people,
same bull**** excuse for the same bull**** rules design

[Mr Mystery]

"Mr Mystery apologizes for being a turd."

[DrBored]

tbh, having watched two games against very different armies, there's a build that's already pretty terrifying.

You take several min squads of Flesh Hounds, fill out the rest of your army however, and take a big blob unit of a Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with either Bloodcrushers or Spawn and you just shred things apart.

The big thing is that with the Slaughtercult, there's NO reason that you shouldn't have FNP from Turn 2 and for the rest of the game. Both games I watched could have easily gotten a Bloodthirster, but there was no reason to, they just got the bonuses that did more damage over the course of the whole army. Getting FNP and +1 attack or Furious Charge for their whole army was simply fantastic. Cultists were able to reliably knock out light vehicles with Furious Charge, and FNP kept those Flesh Hounds alive.

[daboarder]

tbh, having watched two games against very different armies, there's a build that's already pretty terrifying.

You take several min squads of Flesh Hounds, fill out the rest of your army however, and take a big blob unit of a Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with either Bloodcrushers or Spawn and you just shred things apart.

The big thing is that with the Slaughtercult, there's NO reason that you shouldn't have FNP from Turn 2 and for the rest of the game. Both games I watched could have easily gotten a Bloodthirster, but there was no reason to, they just got the bonuses that did more damage over the course of the whole army. Getting FNP and +1 attack or Furious Charge for their whole army was simply fantastic. Cultists were able to reliably knock out light vehicles with Furious Charge, and FNP kept those Flesh Hounds alive.

yeah, you can make some pretty mean armies out of it, and the abillity to mix characters is amazingly welcome.

I am actually looking forward to the Nurgle one