Wraithcannons and Instant Death

[Ace]

Okay, so most people know that in the wording for an Eldar Wraithguard's Wraithcannon, it states that on a 6 to wound, the target is subject to instant death, regardless of toughness. Now after reading the rulebook section on instant death it only seems to talk about instant death through double toughness.

Honestly, its a stretch here to see if this gun ignores Eternal Warriors, but I think that it ignores synapse creatures immunity because it specifically says "Cannot be instantly killed by weapons whose strength is Double the creature's toughness" (Something to that effect I believe.

What so ya'll think?

[darrrrren]

im pretty sure that the wording implies that if a wound is inflicted, you treat the wound as if it had the "instant death" property, regardless of what the targets T is, or the S of the wraithcannon.

units that are not affected by instant death are still immune to the instant death that a wraithcannon inflicts. (eternal warrior, synapse, demons, etc).

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, the wraithcannon (and D-cannon) both state, "The [wraithcannon/D-cannon] always wounds on a roll of 2+, and a roll to wound of a 6 it inflicts instant death on the victim (regardless of its Toughness value)."

Under the old version of synapse, that would indeed mean that a wraithcannon could inflict instant death on a tyranid unit. Unfortunately, as the tyranid errata (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180140_Tyranids_FAQ_2006-08_5th_Edition.pdf) state, the codex wording of synapse has been overridden. The current version of synapse reads, in relevant part:


Tyranids within Synapse range as described above (including the Synapse Creature itself) are not affected by the Instant Death rule. Note that this does not apply to Ripper Swarms.

And, as the lead-in page (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat210004&categoryId=600005&section=&aId=3400019) states, errata (as oppose to frequently-asked-questions) are not optional interpretations of the rules. They have the same level of authority as if they were printed in the codex in front of you. So synapse does indeed make [non-Ripper] tyranids immune to the instant death effects of a wraithcannon.

[Old_Paladin]

Yeah, along with everyone else; becuase it says that is uses the 'instant death' rule, it obeys all the laws of normal instant death (kills regarless of wounds, stopped by eternal warrior, etc.)

Some of the confusion is probably carryover from older edition codexes; when a wraithcannon said 'removes from play' and the Nid erreta backed up that the wraithcannon ignores synapse.

The main benefit of wraithcannons now is that is can kill targets with T6+ in one shot.

[ShadowElf]

The current version of synapse reads, in relevant part:

Tyranids within Synapse range as described above (including the Synapse Creature itself) are not affected by the Instant Death rule. Note that this does not apply to Ripper Swarms

notice that in the faq the key word is RULE and not just INSTANT KILL

now the instant death rule in the brb states that instant death is what happens when you are hit with a weapon that is 2x your toughness...this is "the instant death rule" that synapse is non affected by...however the wraitcannon isnt 2x your toughness so it still instant kills synapse. but eternal warrior is unaffected by wraithcannons insta kill and i do believe an invul save can shrug it off due to it inflicting a wound

wraithcannon rules:the wraithcannon always wounds on 2+ and a roll of 6 inflicts instant death.

now the weapon stats: 12' range str:x ap:2 assault 1


retracted and more info later on in this topic

[Nabterayl]

That's ingenious, ShadowElf, but I don't think it fits the rest of the book. The force weapon rules on page 50, for instance, say that a force weapon's psychic power inflicts "Instant death" [sic], which I think is pretty clearly referring to the rules on page 26, notwithstanding the fact that those rules do indeed specify double Toughness. Page 26 doesn't ever specify what section of the "Instant Death" section is the actual effect of Instant Death, but in light of page 50 I think we need to conclude that the effect of Instant Death is "[the victim model] is killed outright and removed as a casualty," not "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty."

[ShadowElf]

just a side note...i may be repeating myself in this post and all of this is RAW and not RAI

i understand what you are trying to get at...however the only entry for rules regarding instant death in the brb indicates that the instant death rule is what happens when you are hit with a weapon that is 2x your toughness...again you may use other forms of instant death as they insta kill regardless of the targets toughness and from what i understand there is quite a bit of that out there

the only thing that comes to mind is synapse which indicates that they are immune to the instant death rule...again it refers to the instant death rule and not instant death from sources that can insta kill no mater the toughness

as for force weapons in the 5th ed space marine codex follow the entry for force weapons on pg 50 that it is insta killed no matter what the toughness is...which brings me back to the entry for the wraithcannon...however there are a few 4th/3rd ed codexs(the ones that have yet to have a new codex made for them) that have rules for a force weapon in the codex itself demon hunters codex comes to ming

in conclusion nothing makes you immune to all insta kills while others like synapses only refers to the insta kill rule in the rulebook unless your codex says differntly


and i think i will stop there as there might be the possiblity of a circular discussion and chances are we will keep repeating ourselfs

[SeattleDV8]

I disagree, in general Instant Death occurs when a weapons S is double your T.
Certain weapons (force ,wraithcannon,etc) can also cause Instant Death by meeting a different criteria (psychic test, rolling a 6)
All of these use the Instant Death rule.
Some just take a different path to get there.

[Nabterayl]

ShadowElf,

Are you suggesting that "instant death" has no particular technical meaning, then, akin to the old Daemonhunter and Witchhunter "slay outright," and that therefore page 50 isn't referencing the Instant Death rule, but describing something parallel to it?

Bearing in mind that you are, as you say, not necessarily arguing for the way you would play, I admit that's fairly clever.

[ShadowElf]

NOTE: i know what i said in previous posts but researched it more and found more info and rules that apply to this topic


ill start off with this

from here on and to the end of this post...the rules located for my argument are pg 26 and 50 of the brb and pg46 of the eldar codex...and guess what? the brb faq has nothing in there for the instant kill rule.

now as the instant death rule...again it says only 2x toughness...thats one way to do it

and another...wraithcannon...on a roll to wound of 6 inflicts instant death regardless of toughness

so thats 2 ways for instant death and both have a different process for achieving such

now #3 force weapons...roll to hit and wound as normal the psyker then makes a psychic test...if passed the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of toughness unless an invuln save is succeeded

so all together thats 3 different ways of instant death...only one refers to the INSTANT DEATH RULES in the brb...which would that be...ding ding ding...option #1

and quickly for all those thinkin USR..."hey my dude has eternal warrior!" well gues what?

The "Eternal Warrior" USR says that he is immune to the effects of the instant death rule...again another reference to the pg 26 version of insta kill.

whoo " HAHAHA you shot me with a lascannon...well guess what it shined my armor...ah crap here come some wraithguard...retreat to the bunker guys!" lol


SeattleDV8:

with your post you just confirmed what ive been saying

heres what you said:

I disagree, in general Instant Death occurs when a weapons S is double your T.
Certain weapons (force ,wraithcannon,etc) can also cause Instant Death by meeting a different criteria (psychic test, rolling a 6)
All of these use the Instant Death rule.
Some just take a different path to get there.

in your first sentance you refer to general instant death...ok thats one form of it...then you go onto certain weapons can also cause instant death...ok i can accept that but you are assuming that there is only one type of instant death which on pg 26 is 2x toughness...and the last part of the second sentance "Certain weapons (force ,wraithcannon,etc) can also cause Instant Death by meeting a different criteria (psychic test, rolling a 6)" ok thats also good...thats #2 of the types of instant death which are not specifically stated on pg 26 of the instant death rule as they have (as you say) different criteria

so it seems to me that your thinking on the instant death rules coincide with mine to a degree with you saying there was 2 forms of insta kill

so going from the beginning of the defined instant death on pg 26 can you honestly tell me that all instant death is covered there...no you cant cuz it specifically says instant kill happens if a critter is attacked with a weapon that has str 2x its toughness (which is what i have been saying all over this topic) and is one type of insta kill...now if those 3 paragraph says anything about force weapons or wraithcannons (which have different rules for instant kill) then it would apply but it doesnt...they have different rules not indicated in the actual instant kill rules


now onto what Nabterayl said in his post:

Are you suggesting that "instant death" has no particular technical meaning, then, akin to the old Daemonhunter and Witchhunter "slay outright," and that therefore page 50 isn't referencing the Instant Death rule, but describing something parallel to it?

Bearing in mind that you are, as you say, not necessarily arguing for the way you would play, I admit that's fairly clever.

No im not suggesting that "instant death" has no particular technical meaning...im just saying there is more than one way for instant death as described earlier in this and previous posts

anyway yes sometimes the wording like in daemonhunters does in fact have an impact on the instant death due to its wording...which again brings me back to pg 26 where it says instant death is only 2x your toughness...so yes that works on high str weapons but again says nothing bout other types of instant kill because of the way they are perfomed but are still insta kill due to the defintion of the actual rules of such weapons in both the brb(if 2xtoughness) and the codex they apply to


and ill finish this off with...this is all RAW...not RAI...if you feel to have such house rules at your LGS then i have no right to say " No you have to do what the brb says to do"

also how can you explain the same thing over and over that is so simple and have people still not understand...i mean come on, the 3 reference pages dont have much on the topic and make about 5 paragraphs at most and still cover different rules and wording among all 3 pages...with one covering 2x toughness...another from a wraithcannon which is insta kill regardless of toughness...and finally force weapons which inflict instant death if your opposing force fails an invuln save but again come on! the explination of this topic should be about 11 actual sentances not 4 pages



and for those that need repeated again(even though ive done it about 3-4 times in this post cuz it seems no one is willing to accept the black and white rules) here it is...in black and white...not a shady explination(unable to post word for word on the rules of the brb/codex due to not knowing forum rules on such info)

LOOK AT PG 26 UNDER THE INSTANT DEATH SECTION

THEN LOOK AT PG 50 AND READ THE FORCE WEAPON RULES

THEN LOOK AT PG 74 AND READ ETERNAL WARRIOR

THEN LOOK AT PG 46 OF THE ELDAR CODEX

SO FAR THAT SUMS IT UP THERE ARE NO SHADY AREAS...NO GREY AREAS JUST PLAIN BLACK AND WHITE...IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER BASED ON WHAT IT DOES...FORCE WEAPONS INSTANT KILL REGARDLESS OF TOUGHNESS THIS IS STILL AND INSTANT KILL DUE TO THE RULES ON PG 50 FOR FORCE WEAPONS...SOME SAY IT STILL FOLLOWS THE INSANT DEATH RULES ON PG 26 BUT IT DOESNT IT HAS ITS OWN RULES...IF IT DIDNT THEN ONE WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE COVERED ON PG 26...BUT ITS NOT COVERED ON PG 26 CUZ AGAIN IT HAS ITS OWN SPECIAL RULES

ok i can deal with that...so i continue again

PG 26 INSTANT DEATH SECTION THAT HAS 3 PARAGRAPHS ON INSTANT DEATH...WELL GUESS WHAT...IT ONLY COVERS INSTANT DEATH BY A WEAPON(S) THAT HAVE STR THAT IS 2X YOUR TOUGHNESS...OH AND CANT FORGET...THE SECOND PARAGRAPH GIVES AN EXAMPLE OF THE INSTANT DEATH RULES IN THE BRB

thats what i been saying all through out this topic!!! again there is no shady area...its all black and white i could go on to stating what the wraithcannon instant death does and the synapse errata but guess what im going to anyway...

PG 50 OF THE ELDAR CODEX
WRAITHCANNON INFLICTS INSTANT DEATH ON A WOUND ROLL OF 6 REGARDLESS OF TOUGHNESS...WHOO ANOTHER FORM OF INSTANT DEATH THAT HAS ITS OWN RULES FOR INSTANT DEATH AND THAT CAUSES INSTANT DEATH...NOTICE IT STILL CAUSES INSTANT DEATH BUT IN THE BRB STANDARD INSTANT DEATH HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE HIT WITH A WEAPON THAT HAS STR 2X YOUR TOUGHNESS


again thats black and white there...its instant death due to its special rule from the wraithcannon...and in no way does it say you have to resolve this as the brb rule for instant death...know why?...because it has its own special rule!!!


PG 74 USR ETERNAL WARRIOR
THE MODEL IS IMMUNE TO THE EFFECTS OF THE INSTANT DEATH RULE

GUESS WHAT...MANY PLAYERS ARE FUBAR'D WITH THIS ONE...AS THERE ARE ALOT OF INSTANT DEATH FROM SPECIAL WEAPONS AS THERE ARE TIMES WHEN YOU GET INSTA KILLED FROM WEAPONS WITH STR 2X YOUR TOUGHNESS


AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST

TYRANID SYNAPSE ERRATA FROM GW...

Errata
Page 28 – The Hive Mind and Synapse Creatures,
second bullet point.
The second sentence should be changed as
follows:
Tyranids within Synapse range as described above
(including the Synapse Creature itself) are not
affected by the Instant Death rule. Note that this
does not apply to Ripper Swarms.

AGAIN IT REFERS "THE INSTANT DEATH RULE" NOT INSTA KILL FROM A FORCE WEAPON OR WRAITHCANNON...JUST PLAIN "THE INSTANT DEATH RULE"

LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING...THE RULES ARE THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE...THE REASON PEOPLE ARE HAVING A HARD TIME WITH IT COULD BE FROM DENIAL OR DISBELIEF WITH THE BLACK AND WHITE INSTANT DEATH FROM ANY AND ALL SOURCES

BUT AGAIN THE INFO IS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE...THERE ARE NO MORE RULES HIDDEN IN BRB/CODEX TO SAY OTHERWISE





And sorry Ace about all this...im sure its not what you were looking for in this topic but im sure it will be resolved as soon as possible

[SeattleDV8]

Dude seriously....Instant Death is Instant Death.
If you have to work that hard it probably isn't what the rule is.
You have gone though the most convoluted logic (which still makes no sense) to even come close to proving your point.
A weapon with S 2X T uses the ID rule.
A force weapon uses the ID rule.
A wraithCannon uses the ID rule.
See a pattern here?

[Jwolf]

Shadow Elf - You're wrong, and long walls of text with lots of bold in them doesn't change them. INSTANT DEATH describes the way other than weapons that cause instant death via a special rule cause instant death. Trying to define one instant death as different from another instant death requires a specific call-out in the Codex, which patently does not exist. In fact, the text for Force Weapons in the BRB and Wraithcannons is the same - "instant death, regardless of toughness".

Enough on this topic.