Open-Topped + Flamers?

[Lost Vyper]

So...

IMHO, the flamer-rule for the OT-transport is OP...why? Well...as an Dark Eldar player, who plays Orks occasionally, i find the d6 WAY too much of destruction...d3 would have been enough. If the Venom spam was too much, 4 dicegodz sake, was this the answer? You CAN NOT play, Dark Eldar Warriors or Wyches against Grey Knights. Why? Cos Dredknight is the best unit in the book = torrent flamer = everything dead without an 3+...it really gets kind of boring to play against the GK with Eldar = Wave Serpents to survive, and, oh they are so OP...:eek:

So, how would i fix this? Simple, d3 hits inside of an Open-Topped vehicle, ding, there you go GW. Logic and reason.

- Lost Vyper

[Charistoph]

And the question is?... (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?52257-Homebrew-Unofficial-Rules)

[Sly]

And the question is?... (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?52257-Homebrew-Unofficial-Rules)

I think it was:

"Why? Oh, God, WHYYYYYYY!!!!!!!............"

Or something like that.

[DarkLink]

You're playing DE, and you're having problems killing Dreadknights?

[Lost Vyper]

Yep, 36 shots from the Venoms and usually 1 wound, next round, torrent flamer = dead dudes. And if this topic is in a wrong place, please move it.

[ShadowcatX]

Yep, 36 shots from the Venoms and usually 1 wound, next round, torrent flamer = dead dudes. And if this topic is in a wrong place, please move it.

Splinter weapons aren't the answer to everything.

[Lost Vyper]

No s*** sherlock, hard to mount something else on the Venom´s...it´s the flamers & force weapons i´m concerned about, Talos etc. won´t work...

[Dave Mcturk]

yes. the gw sudden love for flamers did come out of the blue. and the DE glass transports probably suffer the most.

think the only answer is blockers. and wait till turn 3 before committing to get the power from pain bonuses

and take eldar allies ?


weve houseruled against certain abuses - but thats down to the play-group !

[ShadowcatX]

Then field something other than venoms.

Also, didn't you complain about this the last time you fought blood angels? Seems like you let him flame 2 venoms in one shot IIRC.

[Lost Vyper]

Well, i´m a whiny guy, deal with it :). It might have been (but i think it was against GK and i mishapped with Scalpel to form a line), but with pure DE it´s Venoms or Raiders. Field what? Dave has a point. I lost one game just cos i put too much unit on the table and took the flamers = dead. Sure, Eldar allies work like a charm, but the point was PURE DE-list. BA Tactical-list is normally Heavy-flamer,Flamer,Combi-flamer in a Rhino x 3. Now-a-dayz, thats a good one against DE. Eldar would tear that with WS´s in a second. But the main idea of the discussion was, do YOU think the OT + Flamers is OP?

[Charon]

Then field something other than venoms.

Wow... that is... AMAZING.
So let us run our T3 Models on foot... oh no... same problem... hmm... ah I know! We put them in Raiders because they are not open and... oh... wait... hmm...
Ah! Talos/Cronos! They will 100% catch him when he deepstikes next to them because thats what a smart player will do.... mhm... riiiight.

I love this generic answer without any actual advice which clearly shows how much of an idea the person has.

[ShadowcatX]

Wow... that is... AMAZING.
So let us run our T3 Models on foot... oh no... same problem... hmm... ah I know! We put them in Raiders because they are not open and... oh... wait... hmm...
Ah! Talos/Cronos! They will 100% catch him when he deepstikes next to them because thats what a smart player will do.... mhm... riiiight.

I love this generic answer without any actual advice which clearly shows how much of an idea the person has.

You probably shouldn't talk about people not having an idea. If you had any reading comprehension skills you would have noticed that we were talking about killing a dreadknight and how bad venoms are at it.

[ShadowcatX]

Well, i´m a whiny guy, deal with it :). It might have been (but i think it was against GK and i mishapped with Scalpel to form a line), but with pure DE it´s Venoms or Raiders. Field what? Dave has a point. I lost one game just cos i put too much unit on the table and took the flamers = dead. Sure, Eldar allies work like a charm, but the point was PURE DE-list. BA Tactical-list is normally Heavy-flamer,Flamer,Combi-flamer in a Rhino x 3. Now-a-dayz, thats a good one against DE. Eldar would tear that with WS´s in a second. But the main idea of the discussion was, do YOU think the OT + Flamers is OP?

They are imperials in a rhino with flamers, if they catch you, you deserve to burn. Grots, corpse thief claw, there are plenty of ways to intercept them before they cause problems.

And no, I think the rule, while problematic for us, is fine.

[Charon]

You probably shouldn't talk about people not having an idea. If you had any reading comprehension skills you would have noticed that we were talking about killing a dreadknight and how bad venoms are at it.

And if you had any knowledge you would have noticed that Venoms are actually excellent at killing dreadknights, especially those with... you know... Blasterborn... who get roasted.

[ShadowcatX]

And if you had any knowledge you would have noticed that Venoms are actually excellent at killing dreadknights, especially those with... you know... Blasterborn... who get roasted.

You're grasping at straws to avoid being wrong, its really kind of pathetic. Even in your example it isn't the venom who is good at killing them, it is the blasterborn.

[Charon]

Who coincidently sit on a venom which is open topped and suffers from "no escape".


You're grasping at straws to avoid being wrong, its really kind of pathetic.

[ShadowcatX]

Who coincidently sit on a venom which is open topped and suffers from "no escape".

Only if you field blasterborn.Or you could put them in a bastion if you have to field blasterborn. Scourges, otoh, don't need a venom. Grotesques, mean while, aren't afraid of flamers. Nor are ravagers.

[Charon]

Only if you field blasterborn.Or you could put them in a bastion if you have to field blasterborn. Scourges, otoh, don't need a venom. Grotesques, mean while, aren't afraid of flamers. Nor are ravagers.

Srsly?
Bastion suffers from no escape too.
Scourges? Yeah... they will totally deal with a dredknight. You want the 18" blasters which still does not outrange DS + Torrent or 12" + Torrent or the snapshooting Lance? And Grots totally deal with a Monstrous creature with a 2+ that can ID them. WOW. Meanwhile your ravager has 3 lances that most probably still will not deal 3 wounds but costs the same as 2 Venoms which will probably kill him.

Again. This is about the no escape rule. There is not a single Transport in the DE list that is immune to no escape while GK can Ds their torrent flamer and pick the most dangerous target easily due to that rule.

[ShadowcatX]

Srsly?
Bastion suffers from no escape too.
Scourges? Yeah... they will totally deal with a dredknight. You want the 18" blasters which still does not outrange DS + Torrent or 12" + Torrent or the snapshooting Lance? And Grots totally deal with a Monstrous creature with a 2+ that can ID them. WOW. Meanwhile your ravager has 3 lances that most probably still will not deal 3 wounds but costs the same as 2 Venoms which will probably kill him.

Again. This is about the no escape rule. There is not a single Transport in the DE list that is immune to no escape while GK can Ds their torrent flamer and pick the most dangerous target easily due to that rule.

Ok, stop moving the goal posts first off, are you wanting to kill him or are you wanting to survive getting flamered while on a transport? Scourges can deep strike in, at only 2/3 rd the cost of your precious blasterborn in a venom, 2 squads of them will likely do him in if you alpha strike. Ravagers won't do it as economically but they will do it better than venoms. Otoh, grotesques and the ravager don't die to the flamer.

I wasn't aware bastions have no escape. Do you have a page number for that?

Second, I suggest checking the math before you make stupid claims like "2 venoms will probably kill him."

Third, yes, a nearly 200 point model is difficult to deal with compared to our 40 point warrior squads. That's working as intended, especially since that 200 point model is the best thing in their codex.

[Charon]

Ok. Last statement as you really have no clue what you are saying and still think you hold the key to wisdom:


No Escape
If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

Bastion has Fire points all around.


are you wanting to kill him or are you wanting to survive getting flamered while on a transport?

Both. Because if he kills you first, you wont kill him back. I think that is obvious, right?


Scourges can deep strike in

The DK can also Deepstrike in.


2 squads of them will likely do him in if you alpha strike

IF he is already on the table.
IF both squads arrive at the same time.
IF they do not scatter.

Thats a whole lot of IF.


Otoh, grotesques and the ravager don't die to the flamer.

They do not need to die to his flamer as they are not much of a threat anyways. If the grots dare to assault him (the only thing they actually can do) they just get obliterated by his S10 while failing to get through his 2+


Second, I suggest checking the math before you make stupid claims like "2 venoms will probably kill him."

2 Venoms (without crew) 1,333 wounds on average
Ravager: 1,111 wounds on average

So... in what world is 1,333 worse than 1,111?
"Probably kill him" was a mistake in language in this case, I meant a chance to kill him. Because even in the best circumstances where the ravager hits and wounds all lances while the dredknight misses all saves he will score a maximum of 3 wounds, while the Venoms (with an outlier in saves) could possibly kill him.

[ShadowcatX]

IF he is already on the table.
IF both squads arrive at the same time.
IF they do not scatter.

Thats a whole lot of IF.

Nothing in the game can hurt him if he's not on the table, its a non-issue. It feels like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.


2 Venoms (without crew) 1,333 wounds on average
Ravager: 1,111 wounds on average

So... in what world is 1,333 worse than 1,111?

Again you should check your math. 9 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 save. Seems to me ravager's doing just as good a job as the venoms, and at 25 less points.



"Probably kill him" was a mistake in language in this case, I meant a chance to kill him. Because even in the best circumstances where the ravager hits and wounds all lances while the dredknight misses all saves he will score a maximum of 3 wounds, while the Venoms (with an outlier in saves) could possibly kill him.

Pretty big mistake in language, but whatever. And I never said lances on the ravager. Beyond that, if your opponent is rolling badly enough your venoms kill his knight, odds are you could have killed him with anything.

[Tokunator]

If only Dark Eldar were mobile enough to spread out wide enough or had access to tanks with multiple S8 AP2 shots...

It's not the rules, it's poor tactics. I play pure DE too and I have yet to lose against Grey Knights with multiple Dreadknights. Sure, if they get first turn, each murders most passengers in 1-2 Venoms, but that's why you brought 7 plus 3 Raiders plus 3 Ravagers plus Reavers. So you trade 120 points units against 250 points units. That seems fair enough to me.

That reminds me of your Sicarans are OP thread. OP seems to mean 'good against me' to you.
That Incinerator is just OK against most stuff, it just happens to laugh at DE and Ork vehicles and some light infantry. But in a faction where every model is 20 points or more with Marine stats, they need all the help they can get.

[DarkLink]

As a competitive Grey Knight player, Dark Eldar hard counter Grey Knights. There are very few things that GKs can do to effectively fight back. If you're DE and losing to GK, the problem is definitely not that Dreadknights are OP.

[Djbz]

I play Dark Eldar and have no problems with grey Knights at all.
In fact they are probably the easiest army I have to face as my Wyches (that I run at least 2 squads of 10 of every game) can shrug off force weapon wounds with their invulnerable save.
And yes the grey knight player has quite a lot of Incinerators.

I do miss the days of 5th edition when agonisers were Ap 2 as I managed to kill a Dreadknight with a single Hekatrix before the rest of her squad got to do anything...(now it'd get an armour save rather than the invulnerable)

[Katharon]

I've never heard anyone say that the Flamer rule in regards to Open Topped vehicles is over powered. If anything most players I know and play with believe it to be under-powered. Instead of getting what is often at least 5-8 hits with a flamer template, you have to trust to a dice role of a single D6 -- at a chance of only hitting 1, one!

And yeah, like the two guys above me said: if you're losing to GK's, it's definitely not because Dreadknights are overpowered.

[Lost Vyper]

So spam spam, spam spam spam? What a delightful idea, why didn´t i think of that? :0. Well, i´ll soon have total of four Venoms and 20 Warriors. That should keep the heat on more. It´s interesting that most of the comments here have nothing to do with the discussion, i think only two has said OP or NOT. It seems, that most of the people are fine with the rule. Maybe as an Marine -player, i would too, but hey, that´s how the cookie crumbles...

[ShadowcatX]

So spam spam, spam spam spam? What a delightful idea, why didn´t i think of that? :0. Well, i´ll soon have total of four Venoms and 20 Warriors. That should keep the heat on more. It´s interesting that most of the comments here have nothing to do with the discussion, i think only two has said OP or NOT. It seems, that most of the people are fine with the rule. Maybe as an Marine -player, i would too, but hey, that´s how the cookie crumbles...

Its funny, you play badly and thus think a rule that hurts you is OP, and everyone who disagrees with you must be a marine player because the rule doesn't hurt them. Reminds me of the whole:

Dear GW,

Paper is OP. Scissors is fine.

Sincerely,
Rock.

[DarkLink]

This is the same guy who started a thread complaining about how utterly broken Sicarian Battle Tanks are, because they're good at killing his Hornets and Wave Serpents...

[wolflold]

If you play venom spam you deserve to burn...;) its a compensation for the "i shoot way to much and have a 5++ save" vehicle, cant have it al.

[ShadowcatX]

If you play venom spam you deserve to burn...;) its a compensation for the "i shoot way to much and have a 5++ save" vehicle, cant have it al.

I thought the whole "dies to bolters but costs more than a rhino" was compensation for that?