The State of Chaos Today

[DrBored]

I'm just going to take a moment to put forward some information. I'm passionate about Chaos Space Marines and would love to see them get the same sort of support as we've seen other Codices get recently.

Here's the thing. With the exception of a few character models and maybe one or two entries, the following Codices are pretty much complete, with entire ranges of plastic.
Tyranids
Grey Knights
Necron
Dark Eldar
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Astra Militarum

These Codices you can pick up and have an entire force that is plastic without feeling like you're missing anything key. Yes, there are a few resin characters here and there, and one or two entries, like the Dark Eldar Beast Master and beasts and AM Ratlings and stuff like that, but those don't make up a considerable portion of the Codex.

These below have significant chunks that are not only old, but were haphazardly moved to resin:

Tau - specifically Kroot and Vespid
Eldar - ALL Aspect Warriors
Orks - a few vehicles and some other things, not 100% on these guys
Daemons - The Greater Daemons, a few Heralds, Fiends of Slaanesh, Beast of Nurgle, and a few others
and finally...

Chaos Marines:
-Mutilators - while new, are resin
-Obliterators - old metal converted to resin
-Khorne Berzerkers - from 3rd edition, some of the oldest plastic you can get
-Plague Marines - previously metal, now resin, a head shorter than regular marines
-Noise Marines - The Chaos Marine kit with resin tacked on
-Thousand Sons - The Chaos Marine kit with resin tacked on
-Chaos Cultists - Only way to get them is Dark Vengeance or little extra boxes taken from DV sprues
-All Named Characters
-Chaos Havocs - The only way to get Chaos heavy weapons is to get these old resin models
-Chaos Chosen - Don't exist. Yes, there are the DV models. Space Marines have Vanguard Vets AND Sternguard. Where are our Chosen?

Of special note, Chaos Terminators, Bikers, the Defiler, and of course the main Chaos Marine set are all showing their age, and all Chaos vehicles are still just Space Marines, but more expensive with that extra Chaos bits sprue tacked on. There are also some resin generic characters that, while beautiful, are starting to feel out of place..

The only things Chaos Marines have that are brand spankin' new are...
-Helbrute - Gorgeous, beautiful kit, easy to magnetize, a pleasure to paint and build, tons of beautiful options that cover all weapons it can have
-Chaos Raptors - Brilliantly stunning baroque style, ancient-looking jetpacks brought in, and Warptalon options for flavor. Also the best way to get Lightning Claws ever.
-Dark Vengeance - All incredible models, beautiful, fresh, with a new aesthetic that is far away from 'marines with spikey bits', a breath of fresh air in a whole army
-Maulerfiend/Forgefiend - Unique, new, and above all else, Chaotic, and I love it.
-Heldrake - A great kit that has lots of opportunity for conversion and paint, though I wish they didn't model it perpetually banking, but that's just me.
-Possessed - While not a new kit, is a great kit for bits and conversion, appropriately chaotic, and fits well with all the rest.
-Chaos Spawn - Again, not a new kit, but is fresh and a delight to work with, and has lots of opportunity for conversion.
-Daemon Prince - Our only true plastic HQ option, a brilliant model with lots of options and opportunity.

And with that I've covered the entire Chaos Marine range. Do I have to extrapolate?

The Chaos Marine range is a haphazard mess of old kits, resin, and fresh new kits that have a completely different aesthetic than the old. I welcome the new kits, but we need more of them.

Why am I posting this? To explain why I'm so frustrated. To me, it's less about the rules and more about the models. I started building Space Sharks and have never touched a Space Marine bike, Centurion, or Thunderfire Cannon because I just don't like those models. I would love to get back into Chaos Marines, but with the range looking the way it does, there's really no motivation, no impetus.

Yeah, you could make an army using only new kits. You'll have DV cultists, Forgefiends/Maulerfiends for heavy, Helbrutes for elite, Heldrakes and Raptors for fast, and the Chaos Lord from the DV set, with maybe a Warpsmith or Acolyte or the new Sorcerer or Daemon Prince thrown in. Does that sound like the type of army that typifies the World Eaters? The Emperor's Children? The Thousand Sons? Heck, even Black Legion wouldn't look like that!

The point is, HALF of our entries are resin, ancient, or both (with most entries being troop-based), and with the new Codex of Khorne rumored to be coming up soon, I'm terrified, TERRIFIED that Games Workshop is not going to update Khorne Berzerkers. If they do? Great! I will delete this post entirely, because it will be the first hint that from a model perspective, GW is finally ready to update the biggest bad that ever went bad in their verse.

If they don't? Then you won't hear the end of it from Chaos Marine players. To have a God-Specific Codex with no new models.. even if we DID get one for Nurgle and Tzeentch, unless those cult troops get updated, then in my mind there's no reason to invest in those lines for new players.

Here's hoping this new Codex is worth its salt, if it does indeed appear. It's going to take a monumental effort to make an almost exclusively-assault army perform the way it needs to perform.

[daboarder]

Convert my friend, go out and create your grand symphony to the Dark Gods in the unique and cohesive fashion that YOU choose. Call forth the dark glory or bygone days and revel in the inability of kiddy friendly GW to contain the glory of Chaos.


seriously though, conversion opportunities is one of the biggest drives towards the Chaos faction, therefore while you make excellent points I feel that it is less of an issue for our army in particular than it would be for others.

On two side notes, its only really in the last year-6 months that nids got significant plastic love, and we are still missing some units/ have some resin expenses (lictor :( )

Also if your conversion skills aren't that great to start I have a serious of tutorials that you can find by simply googling "daboarder's How To's" I currently have some basic Nurgle, Slaanesh and Nid ones, but when I come back to 40k after feeding my infinity fix for a bit I'll be adding more for the other Dark Gods.

[DrBored]

A decent idea, but I'm an OCD dood that loves to build out of the box. My conversion skills are bad.. I've actually looked into some tutorials, yours included, and it was.. uh.. Not so great.

[Broodingman87]

Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't release new kits. Considering most models are based off one central torso, I don't understand why there needs to be so many different kits, there is no reason for there to not be a kit that makes:

-Chaos Marines/Havocs/Khorne Berzerkers/Plague Marines/Noise Marines/Thousand Sons/Chaos Chosen kit - All it takes is couple upgrade sprews thrown in the box.
-Mutilators/Obliterators/Chaos Terminators kit
-Chaos Raptors/Warptalons/Possessed kit
-Chaos Cultists/Plague Zombies kit

Look at that, all the Chaos infantry in 4 kits.

- - - Updated - - -


seriously though, conversion opportunities is one of the biggest drives towards the Chaos faction, therefore while you make excellent points I feel that it is less of an issue for our army in particular than it would be for others.

Orks would disagree with you.

[daboarder]

Orks would disagree with you.
I actually think that Chaos is better for the converter than Orks.

Orks, while being very ramshakle and variable in appearance, are very defined in design, there isn't a whole lot of variation on the theme (though there can be as with anything exceptions)

Chaos, now Chaos has as many themes as it does players and the variation in design principles is almost as endless as its namesake

In essence, an ORK, is an ORK, is an ORK.

Chaos is anything from the deepest darkest depths of your imagination

- - - Updated - - -


A decent idea, but I'm an OCD dood that loves to build out of the box. My conversion skills are bad.. I've actually looked into some tutorials, yours included, and it was.. uh.. Not so great.

I'm sorry to hear that man, and I really hope it doesn't stifle your hobby.

[Broodingman87]

I actually think that Chaos is better for the converter than Orks.

Orks, while being very ramshakle and variable in appearance, are very defined in design, there isn't a whole lot of variation on the theme (though there can be as with anything exceptions)

Chaos, now Chaos has as many themes as it does players and the variation in design principles is almost as endless as its namesake

In essence, an ORK, is an ORK, is an ORK.

Chaos is anything from the deepest darkest depths of your imagination

Then I guess you've never seen BatMek? Or the tiptoeing crate with and acme sign that said "nott a ork". Or the Boyz on the mountain with the space marine "bird seed". One of my local guys has a Warboss with a cigar and picking it bellybutton with a speech bobble "U gota purty mouf boy".

A big theme with the Orks is they don't take war seriously, and a lot of players hide little jokes in there army for you to stumble on.

[daboarder]

yeah man, I know.

But we're discussing personal opinions here, and I reckon those Orks would all be bow backed, spread legged with two arms and two legs of some sort. probably assorted pieces or metal plating painted green etc.

Now chaos....I have a terminator with a damned rotten vulture head, a slaaneshi champion with a tail, no legs and 4 arms...

thats what I talk about when I am talking about design consistency.

[Broodingman87]

Now chaos....I have a terminator with a damned rotten vulture head, a slaaneshi champion with a tail, no legs and 4 arms...

No boobies? For shame, the Dark Lady would not approve! Right, the bird head for Mark of Tzeentch, but why is it rotting? Tzeentch hates Papa Nurgle.

[daboarder]

No boobies? For shame, the Dark Lady would not approve! Right, the bird head for Mark of Tzeentch, but why is it rotting? Tzeentch hates Papa Nurgle.

Well the vulture is a nurgle termie (death and all that) and yeah plenty of gratuity in the slaanesh models

[Kazzigum]

I actually think Chaos is the best army for conversion work, though orks can be great too. But ultimately, I love converting and it's what drew me to chaos back in the days of yore in Legion of the Damned and Slaves to Darkness. The d1000 mutation table just screamed conversions to me. I just love converting, and after all these years, I'd like to think I'm good at it. People tell me I am, so..<shrug>

But ... DrBored IS nevertheless right. Our product line has been neglected. But, I'm not entirely sure it's on purpose really ... No, no, hear me out.Te current Chaos codex came out before the madness that is the last 18 months of GW's release schedule. I mean, seriously, I know that people have short memories, but they've released new product in the last 18 months (particularly for 40k) that's roughly equivalent to 5 year's worth of the same at pretty much any other time in their existence. I mean, counting sourcebooks, they must have did 10+ codices in 2014. That's crazy! We were getting 4 in a good year before. With all that, I think chaos just was done too soon before they launched this new era and they've just been focused on other factions in the meantime.

We will be getting our turn, starting now. Oh, I know berserkers are not being redone, but honestly, I'm cool with it. I actually like their kit, it's just that no one seems to know how to pose them right. Also, if you can get a hold of some of the Slaves to Darkness era metals, well ... they're just gorgeous. Having said that, they DID just release the new plastic bloodthirster, which everyone except me has just been begging for, and well, it is pretty awesome. I have the feeling that this year will be good to us chaos players, as I honestly expect GW will release a god-centric book like this with every new plastic greater daemon they release (though I doubt we'll get more than 2 this year -- probably just the Lord of Change/a Tzeentch book later this year in addition to this one based on rumors). I'd guess Nurgle and Slaanesh next year.

The main problem for us Chaos players is that many just can't let go of the past (ironic, I know). The legions as we loved them in the first three editions are dead and gone. It is clear this is the view that GW espouses for those who pay attention. Hmmm ... I've actually been toying with writing an article laying this case out for a couple days. Chaos players just need to move on. I have, and my favorite army is, has been, and always will be Thousand Sons. Oh, I play other Chaos ... Khorne beserkers, pure Khorne daemons, pure Tzeentch daemons and I have plans for Emperor's Children/Slaanesh daemons and plague marines/zombies. I even have other plans for several armies from IA 13. But ... I love TS, and I'm content with what I can do with them now. I can run a bunch of sorcerers and toss magic all around. I make liberal use of daemon engines and other slaves to my sorcerers' wills. It 'feels' like the TS, though it is admittedly not too competitive. I'm good with that. Would I like a TS sourcebook? Sure I would. But I've excepted that is not GW's plan. The legions are dead. But, like the bitter legionaries themselves, I refuse to accept the truth. And so, I carry on. I view these god-centric books as a dark blessing. Though I know they wont cater to the legions specifically, I hope for formations, warlord charts and relics that may do so, at least a bit. I will bend what they provide to my will.

[Reldane]

Here's the thing. With the exception of a few character models and maybe one or two entries, the following Codices are pretty much complete, with entire ranges of plastic.
Tyranids
Grey Knights
Necron
Dark Eldar
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Astra Militarum


hold on! lets have a look at this shall we?

Troops
we have Cadian and catachn in plastic, Tallarn, Valhallan, steel legion, vostroyan and Mordian iron guard all in metal. okay well you can argue that they are suplemtary but how about our specail weapons? you know those things that every vets squad takes 3 of? yup metal blister packs.

HQ
Straken - metal, Advisers - metal, Techpreist - metal, Primaris psyker - metal, Pask - metal and with Creed, Kell and Yarrick in fine cast

others slots
actauly not too bad, just Ratlings, Wyrdvane psykers in metal and no Rought Riders to speak of. (Vendetta being a forgeworld resin upgrade kit)

if it wasn't for the fact that special weapons are still metal blister packs containing 2 different weapons that depend on the faction I might have let it slide, but it is still nearly impossible to build a Guard army that does not contain metal, finecast and plastic models. also you mention the age of some of the chaos models as a point against them but you seem to be forgetting that the basic guardsmen are just as old.

I'm not trying to say Chaos doesn't deserve some new models at some point but Astra Militarum are far from being all plastic as well (because someone decided what we needed was new betterer twice the cost ogryn and a vehicle (taurox) that offers almost no advantages over the existing Chimera)

[Valkerie]

You seem to be forgetting one faction: Adepta Sororitas.

Need I say more?

[DrBored]

You seem to be forgetting one faction: Adepta Sororitas.

Need I say more?

GW seems to keep forgetting them, so I'm just following suit :P

Also, @Reldane:
Most of the troops you listed are old models that cover THE EXACT SAME CODEX ENTRY. I'm looking specifically at Codex Entries. There are, in fact, separate codex entries for Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Plague Marines, and none of those four individual, different-rules, different-purpose, different-weapons units have new plastic models.

[Houghten]

Orks - a few vehicles and some other things, not 100% on these guys

Allow me to excomplain:

Orks have a mixture of old and new kits. The majority (Nobz, Trukks, Battlewagons, Stompas, Lootas/Burnas, Stormboyz, Warbikers, the basic Mek Gunz, Tankbustas, Kommandos... the latter three of which are metal-converted-to-finecast) are all from 4th or 5th Edition. Killa Kanz, Deff Dreads and Bommers are from late 5th. Flash Gitz, Meganobz, the advanced Mek Gunz and the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut are new. Da boyz are the same boyz we had in 3rd edition (and not all the bits in the kit are still usable on a Boyz mob. Nob leaders haven't been able to take tankbusta bomms since 3rd...). I'm not entirely sure about Gretchin because half of them look just like the old metal sculpts so I can't tell when the switch happened. I'm also not sure about most of the HQ models, except that obviously the plastic ones are new, and all the Finecast ones are old enough that they used to be metal. Warbuggies, wartrakks and deffkoptas are the same models from 2nd edition (not counting the OOP plastic deffkoptas from Black Reach), or rather from GorkaMorka, and you can tell; the boyz are weedier. Skorcha trakks have just gone OOP altogether.

[Reldane]

I understand what you mean DrBored, it isn't exactly true as they same models make Platoon, special weapon squads, conscripts as well as Veterans. it is also the troops choices so unlike the cult troops you are forced to take some of them, codex chaos marines also has a few more units (37) than the Astra Militarum codex(31).

But I will point out once again that special weapons are separate to the unit and in metal which was more the point I was wanting to make. are the special weapons chaos marines could take where not available in their box?

[daboarder]

I understand what you mean DrBored, it isn't exactly true as they same models make Platoon, special weapon squads, conscripts as well as Veterans. it is also the troops choices so unlike the cult troops you are forced to take some of them, codex chaos marines also has a few more units (37) than the Astra Militarum codex(31).

But I will point out once again that special weapons are separate to the unit and in metal which was more the point I was wanting to make. are the special weapons chaos marines could take where not available in their box?

chaos generally has none of its heavy weapons available in any of the boxes, there is no "havoc" box, therefore all our power armour heavy weapons are finecast

[Houghten]

Well, no plastic Havoc box anyway.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Havocs?_requestid=1511861

I'm pretty sure those folks come in one of the weeny boxes.

The heavy bolter does come in plastic in the Chaos Marine box, though.

---

What are these Imperial Guard special weapons that are only available in metal? Meltas? Plasma guns? Sniper rifles? All in the Command Squad box...

[DrBored]

As was said. Most of our ranged heavy weapons are only available as resin havocs. The only one that's plastic is the Heavy Bolter from the Chaos Marine kit. That leaves the Missile Launcher, Autocannon, and Lascannon completely resin. Could you imagine how much of a fit IG players would make if only the Heavy Bolter was plastic out of the Heavy Weapons Teams?

A huge f'ing fit.

[Tomgar]

To be fair, Dark Eldar actually have quite a lot in resin. Mandrakes, Incubi, all special characters, Beastmasters and all 3 beasts, all 4 Court of the Archon models AND Grotesques are all in resin.

That's a good amount of our range. Proportionally, we're probably about the same as Chaos, given that we have a smaller base range to start with.

[Reldane]

Could you imagine how much of a fit IG players would make if only the Heavy Bolter was plastic out of the Heavy Weapons Teams?

A huge f'ing fit.

you do know the the guard heavy weapon teams are a separate kit don't you? they aren't resin coming in plastic/metal depending on which flavour of guard but they are £10 each

[DrBored]

you do know the the guard heavy weapon teams are a separate kit don't you? they aren't resin coming in plastic/metal depending on which flavour of guard but they are £10 each

Oh yeah, I know that. That's what I'm saying though. Our Thousand Sons and Noise Marines are just resin upgrade kits, and our Plague Marines are off-scale full resin, and our Havocs are all resin for all our heavy weapons except the Heavy Bolter.

Your Valhallan or whatever.. they don't matter in the grand scheme of things. You can use Cadian and Catachan models to make a full plastic force without losing any codex entries, except maybe Ratlings or Rough Riders.

[Reldane]

Oh yeah, I know that. That's what I'm saying though. Our Thousand Sons and Noise Marines are just resin upgrade kits, and our Plague Marines are off-scale full resin, and our Havocs are all resin for all our heavy weapons except the Heavy Bolter.

Your Valhallan or whatever.. they don't matter in the grand scheme of things. You can use Cadian and Catachan models to make a full plastic force without losing any codex entries, except maybe Ratlings or Rough Riders.

and chaos players can use loyalist devistators as havoks.

okay joking aside, I would like to see more armies with upto date models and Chaos Marines are certainly in need of some attention in that department. however no matter how much greener the grass looks on the other side of the fence it rarely is (unless its vanila marines) and trying to justify demands by point out what other armies have only makes the chaos players needs look more like moans.

in principle playing one of the chaos legions and playing one of the non catachan non cadian guard forces is very simalar. We are doing it to theam our armies, because we value the unique look and feel of an army that belongs together rather than trying to spam whatever is regarded as most points efficent. In both of these cases and probaly half a dozen more Games workshop has avoided giving us what we might want and instead given us Oygrn or Multialtors or whatever.

[daboarder]

in principle playing one of the chaos legions and playing one of the non catachan non cadian guard forces is very simalar. We are doing it to theam our armies, because we value the unique look and feel of an army that belongs together rather than trying to spam whatever is regarded as most points efficent. In both of these cases and probaly half a dozen more Games workshop has avoided giving us what we might want and instead given us Oygrn or Multialtors or whatever.

not really, CSM are not just a marine subset

[Deadlift]

I've just started experimenting with a new Alpha Legion army, can't afford FW models atm, don't like chaos marines, far too spikey, so I'm using Loyalist marines instead. Getting rid of any aquilas and what not is easy enough and I'm having a blast painting them. But the OP has a very good point. The chaos marine range is lacking in comparison.

[DrBored]

not really, CSM are not just a marine subset

SO MUCH THIS.

I don't understand how Dark Angels and Blood Angels and Space Wolves players feel MORE ENTITLED than Chaos players sometimes! It's like.. really? We're not on the same level DA/BA/SW players. Seriously.

[Broodingman87]

We're not on the same level DA/BA/SW players. Seriously.

You have to admit, that "warp chicken" is really intimidating, and the forge fiend with S8 Plasma Cannons is ridiculous, T6 bikes, I can go on...

Let's look at the DA line,

Azrael - metal - Why does the Chapter Master not have Eternal Warrior, or an AP2 sword?
Beliel - Resin - Power sword/Master-crafted Stormbolter -> LCs or TH/SS... he has the same wargear as a Terminator Sargent yet he's Captain of the 1st company.
Samual - metal - The beat stick of the codex is the Captain of the 2nd company and not the first? And his Landspeeder is a joke.
Asmodai - Resin - He's a Chaplin with 2x Close combat weapons... that's it... and unlike Beliel, he has not Options
Ezekiel - metal - He's level 3, but Ahriman is level 4, or Tiberius who can re-roll powers, Mepiston who's Force Weapon is S10, Njal who can re-roll psychic dice and re-roll Deny the Witch.
Company Master - Resin/Dark Vengeance
Librarian - Dark Vengeance
Standard Marines - upgrade sprew
Deathwing Knights - Plastic - Terminators with AP4 hammers... wth!
Deathwing Terminators - Plastic - same box as Deathwing Command Squad, Terminators with Plasma Cannons! can have mixed weapons squads, but some can every non-codex chapter, Sargent can change his weapons. and they're 5 points more that every other Terminator
Nephhilm jetfight/ Dark Talon Bomber - Plastic - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Where do I begin?
Ravenwing Black knights - plastic - Same kit as Ravenwing Command Squad, bikes with Skilled Rider and Twin-Linked Plasma Rifles, but they're 18" not 24".... 43 points a man? Holy crap!
Landspeeder Vengeance - plastic - Our only unique Heavy Support, a large blast Plasma cannon on a Landspeeder.... It's really useful, but 10 all around really hurts it.

The only artifact worth taking is the Combi- Plasma cannon on a Librarian. Standards are really expensive and the Helldrake made Standard of Devastation not worth taking. Chapter Tactic is Stubborn, which is ok but the only time that matters is when you lose Combat and Dark Angels is NOT a Close Combat army.

BTW... the bits for our standards don't exist.

[Houghten]

You appear to be complaining about the rules more than the models. This is a "complain about old and / or non-plastic models" thread, in which department Dark Angels have very little to do. If I were going to make one complaint about the DA model line, it wouldn't be about the metal HQs, it'd be how there isn't even one shoulder pad in the upgrade sprue for a basic DA symbol on a plain field.

[Broodingman87]

You appear to be complaining about the rules more than the models. This is a "complain about old and / or non-plastic models" thread, in which department Dark Angels have very little to do. If I were going to make one complaint about the DA model line, it wouldn't be about the metal HQs, it'd be how there isn't even one shoulder pad in the upgrade sprue for a basic DA symbol on a plain field.

It's less about complaining about rules and more about being honest, because there are people who don't care about the models, they can play with a bucket of green and tan army men if you let them. If the unit isn't worth taking then why make an updated model for it. Honestly, why take Havocs when you can take Obliterators? Why make new Havocs if no one is going to buy/use them? You feel me?

Yes, there are esthetic complaints I have with models but it's mostly that the models are bland, we look like green, white, and black Ultramarines. For example, look at the Assault cannon Terminator from Dark Vengeance, then look at the heavy weapon Terminator for the Deathwing box, the DV dude has feathers hanging everywhere, a kilt of swords, the DW guy, nothing. Compare that to a Chaos model and it looks nothing to a codex marine.

The reason the sprue doesn't come with a shoulder pad is because its on the transfer sheet.

Factor in another thing, most new players don't buy new models, mostly EBay, when I started the game, it was a trade of my Black Reach models for a Tyrant, Fex, Macragge guants and stealers, and more mines then I can count.

[RGilbert26]

While it's mute, Belial and Sammael are Finecast. Sammael got converted to Finecast ages ago and Belial never had a model until he got released in Finecast.

[Cutter]

It's less about complaining about rules and more about being honest, because there are people who don't care about the models, they can play with a bucket of green and tan army men if you let them.

Yup. Army Men, Heroclix, 1/72 German armour, it's all good.

[This Dave]

U
hold on! lets have a look at this shall we?

Troops
we have Cadian and catachn in plastic, Tallarn, Valhallan, steel legion, vostroyan and Mordian iron guard all in metal. okay well you can argue that they are suplemtary but how about our specail weapons? you know those things that every vets squad takes 3 of? yup metal blister packs.

HQ
Straken - metal, Advisers - metal, Techpreist - metal, Primaris psyker - metal, Pask - metal and with Creed, Kell and Yarrick in fine cast

others slots
actauly not too bad, just Ratlings, Wyrdvane psykers in metal and no Rought Riders to speak of. (Vendetta being a forgeworld resin upgrade kit)

if it wasn't for the fact that special weapons are still metal blister packs containing 2 different weapons that depend on the faction I might have let it slide, but it is still nearly impossible to build a Guard army that does not contain metal, finecast and plastic models. also you mention the age of some of the chaos models as a point against them but you seem to be forgetting that the basic guardsmen are just as old.

I'm not trying to say Chaos doesn't deserve some new models at some point but Astra Militarum are far from being all plastic as well (because someone decided what we needed was new betterer twice the cost ogryn and a vehicle (taurox) that offers almost no advantages over the existing Chimera)

Actually you don't need metal packs to put special weapons in Guard squads. The basic infantry packs have Grenade Launchers and Flamers. The Command Squad boxes include Meltaguns, Sniper Rifles, Plasmaguns, and Heavy Flamers. And if you've ever built Marines you should have multiple Imperial weapons lying around that work just fine with Guard infantry.

[Thornblood]

I'm afraid that I've come to rain on this parade a little. Gw has re-released the 40k range and slowly moved to plastic. It's been a careful and slow process because GW is also a company that has to be careful about making profit- specifically more profit than this time last year. New releases have to sell to keep the company afloat. For instance harlequins are a third eldar faction in their own right now, but this Is because the same models could work for both eldar and dark eldar. Similarly the Knights appealed to all the imperial factions. In addition the vanilla marine codex released tac marines, sternguard and vanguard which I'm sure lots of blood Angels players invested in, only to have their own blood Angels tac marines at a later date, gw has cashed in on the blood angel players over and over. Planned methodical. Low risk releases. Eldar desperately need aspect warriors more than we (chaos) needs new models.

The cure; I do agree the oblits and cc alternates look horrific. Like some of the worst looking models currently in the range. Last year I started an iron warriors army, and the answer for me was forgeworld. All those lovely heresy kits. The models are far better than anything gw can make in plastic. A friend made a unit of khorne berserkers from the fw kit and raptor arms, for those really vicious looking ccws and they look beautiful and deadly. I'm afraid, for nice models, forgeworld is the answer. And I know forgeworld is more expensive but you pay for what you get. 5 plastic marines for 15.50 or 23.50 for 5 forgeworld heresy marines.its a big mark up but I can't see me going back to gw plastics.

The future; so we are in the midst of a big khorne release at the moment, which Rumor has it will include a new 40k daemon codex, which lends itself nicely to raise the profile of each chaos god one by one and make a 40k release for them, filling out the range with the upsell of adding allies with the same mark of chaos as the main daemon force. It's good, it's themeatic. I would then like to see (and now I'm wishlisting) cult codexs- the new codexs have contained more and more conversions, so there are more and more possibilities. Each dex could give you a god-themed army of both Daemons, chaos marines and some stuff that's in between. A single god themed possessed/chosen unit. 4 codexs later there is a new renegade chaos space marine book, maybe focussing on Huron black heart, crimson Sabres, Fabius bile, and the like. Next up they release the other chaos legions, and with the iron warriors their chosen/possessed unit it oblits and a kit! Maybe a plastic. Warsmith too. Maybe havocs too (or maybe they go with the main renegade dex). Word bearers with a plastic dark apostle/sorcerer for all, maybe a new daemon engine, or daemon Knights with iron warriors and word bearers together. Night lords with a new dual flyer. Alpha Legion with something new and sneaky, or maybe something to boost the cultist sub faction.

Rant over. Sorry.

[DrBored]

To the DA players:

You are a subset of Space Marines.

You are one chapter of Space Marines out of a thousand.

Your chapter should have been absorbed into the regular Space Marine dex just like Black Templar was.

The Chaos Space Marine codex is supposed to cover ALL of the Chaos Marines. ALL of the Warbands. ALL of the Legions (though it doesn't) which is a LOT MORE marines of more varied flavor than Dark Angels.

Quit making it sound like you're the hottest cheese, GW's favorites, or even worthy of getting appropriate attention. You are a Supplement, and when it comes to Chaos Marines, Eldar, and even Sisters of Battle, your complaints are insignificant.

[Houghten]

It's less about complaining about rules and more about being honest
No, it's definitely complaining about rules.


there are people who don't care about the models, they can play with a bucket of green and tan army men if you let them.
How are those people relevant? Those people will continue to play with a bucket of army men (far, far away from me) regardless of whether Chaos or DA get new rules and / or models.


Honestly, why take Havocs when you can take Obliterators? Why make new Havocs if no one is going to buy/use them?
One, because you can take more of them at the same points cost, and two, because they're allowed to fire the same weapon two turns in a row.


Why make new Havocs if no one is going to buy/use them?
You appear to have confused "I'm not" with "no one is."


You feel me?
Nope. That would be creepy.


most new players don't buy new models, mostly EBay,
[citation needed]

[Path Walker]

To the DA players:

You are a subset of Space Marines.

You are one chapter of Space Marines out of a thousand.

Your chapter should have been absorbed into the regular Space Marine dex just like Black Templar was.

The Chaos Space Marine codex is supposed to cover ALL of the Chaos Marines. ALL of the Warbands. ALL of the Legions (though it doesn't) which is a LOT MORE marines of more varied flavor than Dark Angels.

Quit making it sound like you're the hottest cheese, GW's favorites, or even worthy of getting appropriate attention. You are a Supplement, and when it comes to Chaos Marines, Eldar, and even Sisters of Battle, your complaints are insignificant.

Except the Chaos dex isn't supposed to cover all Chaos Marines, its a general codex to make the general most common type of chaos space marines, for more specialist types, devoted to a particular god, you have (or will have) a seperate codex

[DrBored]

Except the Chaos dex isn't supposed to cover all Chaos Marines, its a general codex to make the general most common type of chaos space marines, for more specialist types, devoted to a particular god, you have (or will have) a seperate codex

You can make that argument AFTER we have a Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, AND Slaanesh codex. And then, Dark Angels players can complain about any of those individually, and they'll be on roughly the same ground, because those are sub-codices that go under the main.

[Tomgar]

To the DA players:

You are a subset of Space Marines.

You are one chapter of Space Marines out of a thousand.

Your chapter should have been absorbed into the regular Space Marine dex just like Black Templar was.

The Chaos Space Marine codex is supposed to cover ALL of the Chaos Marines. ALL of the Warbands. ALL of the Legions (though it doesn't) which is a LOT MORE marines of more varied flavor than Dark Angels.

Quit making it sound like you're the hottest cheese, GW's favorites, or even worthy of getting appropriate attention. You are a Supplement, and when it comes to Chaos Marines, Eldar, and even Sisters of Battle, your complaints are insignificant.


Bit harsh, dude, are we not allowed to grumble about our subpar rules and daydream about getting cool new models just because you don't think we're a "proper" Codex? Last I saw, our dex didn't say "A Codex: Space Marines" supplement anywhere on it. Our Chapter only partly follows the Codex Astartes, we have numerous successors that also follow our unique combat doctrine, we have fluff that sets us apart from other chapters and we have plenty of unique wargear and options.

I sympathise with your complaints about Chaos but there's no need to be a dick to Dark Angels players for wanting new stuff and start going off on one about how we're just some second rate Vanilla supplement (we're not). We're a separate army with our models and fluff and describing our concerns as players of an individual army as "insignificant" is just a bit douchey.

[Path Walker]

Blah blah blah blah blah... please ignore me.

[daboarder]

Bit harsh, dude, are we not allowed to grumble about our subpar rules and daydream about getting cool new models just because you don't think we're a "proper" Codex? Last I saw, our dex didn't say "A Codex: Space Marines" supplement anywhere on it. Our Chapter only partly follows the Codex Astartes, we have numerous successors that also follow our unique combat doctrine, we have fluff that sets us apart from other chapters and we have plenty of unique wargear and options.

I sympathise with your complaints about Chaos but there's no need to be a dick to Dark Angels players for wanting new stuff and start going off on one about how we're just some second rate Vanilla supplement (we're not). We're a separate army with our models and fluff and describing our concerns as players of an individual army as "insignificant" is just a bit douchey.

I dont think drbored is trying to say you dont have a right to be grumpy. I think its more that he feels this thread is not the right place. Particularly relative to the model range of chaos.

We do homestly know understand and sympathise with the situation dark angels are in rules wise. But model wise i think your far ahead of even the CSM faction never mind the god or legion warband divisions

[DrBored]

I dont think drbored is trying to say you dont have a right to be grumpy. I think its more that he feels this thread is not the right place. Particularly relative to the model range of chaos.

We do homestly know understand and sympathise with the situation dark angels are in rules wise. But model wise i think your far ahead of even the CSM faction never mind the god or legion warband divisions

Pretty much this. Thanks for putting it into words daboarder :P

When it comes to Chaos, there's never enough. When it comes to Imeprium? You guys are spoiled for choice.

[daboarder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parFSROrSyE

[Katharon]

Give me a plastic Tau Empire Farsight model and the ability to take XV-22 Stealthsuits on a Commander (again), and I'll be happy.

[Broodingman87]

To the DA players:

You are a subset of Space Marines.

You are one chapter of Space Marines out of a thousand.

Your chapter should have been absorbed into the regular Space Marine dex just like Black Templar was.

The Chaos Space Marine codex is supposed to cover ALL of the Chaos Marines. ALL of the Warbands. ALL of the Legions (though it doesn't) which is a LOT MORE marines of more varied flavor than Dark Angels.

Quit making it sound like you're the hottest cheese, GW's favorites, or even worthy of getting appropriate attention. You are a Supplement, and when it comes to Chaos Marines, Eldar, and even Sisters of Battle, your complaints are insignificant.

Actually, Dark Angels is the first legion with a good chunk of successor chapters. Yes we should, we'd actually get a buff if we were absorbed (Thunderfire cannons and Terminators oh boy). Chaos has 9 legions, loyalists have 9 legions, All Astartes come from the original 20 legions. With the exception of the survivors from the 2 scrubbed legions thanks to our canine friends, you have no more legions then we do. IIRC, nothing says that traitors recover the geneseeds from dead marines, so shouldn't your numbers be dwindling? Dark Angels is nowhere near GW's favorite chapter, though I'm not sure if it is Ultramarines or Bloodravens. And if you think numbers is the caveat for who gets more codexes, I'm not sure if IG, Orks, or Tyranids should have the most, but I do know when it comes to numbers, Astartes lose!

[DrBored]

Actually, Dark Angels is the first legion with a good chunk of successor chapters. Yes we should, we'd actually get a buff if we were absorbed (Thunderfire cannons and Terminators oh boy). Chaos has 9 legions, loyalists have 9 legions, All Astartes come from the original 20 legions. With the exception of the survivors from the 2 scrubbed legions thanks to our canine friends, you have no more legions then we do. IIRC, nothing says that traitors recover the geneseeds from dead marines, so shouldn't your numbers be dwindling? Dark Angels is nowhere near GW's favorite chapter, though I'm not sure if it is Ultramarines or Bloodravens. And if you think numbers is the caveat for who gets more codexes, I'm not sure if IG, Orks, or Tyranids should have the most, but I do know when it comes to numbers, Astartes lose!

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. It seems like you're disagreeing with me based on your first and fourth sentences.

I really don't want to have to spell it out again. If you can't see my point, then it's a completely lost cause.

[Charon]

IIRC, nothing says that traitors recover the geneseeds from dead marines, so shouldn't your numbers be dwindling?

Most do, some do not.
Besides CSM love to raid loyalist gene storages.


Chaos has 9 legions, loyalists have 9 legions,

And still Loyalist Chapters have FOUR main codices while chaos sits on ONE.