Interested in a Warhammer 20K? and an alternate 40k universe?

[Broodingman87]

I was talking with a hobby buddy about 30K when the idea came about to go even further back, into the dark age of science. Experience the galaxy before the fall of man, the age of strife, declaring science heresy, etc. or would it be too Star Trek meets Starship Troopers, with a little dash of Halo?

And since we're on the subject of 20k, the thought just occurred to me about a re-envisioning of 40k by just changing one variable... what if science was not declared heresy? With the birth of Slaanesh, the awakening of the Necrons and the arrival of the Tyranids, the story could be just as dark, but now a "proper" science fiction and not "Lord of the rings with guns", lol.

Let me know what you think of these questions/Ideas?

[Badtucker]

Dark Age of Technology setting yes ? well wouldnt be far off what is now - no space marines though, but power armour existed. much of the rare weapons in 40k were likely more common, AI and robots did alot more of the war fighting than men did. Rhinos and razorbacks were common as muck back then having be developed for that specific time in earths expansion. expect armies of man to have been quite varied and not above allies with xenos and using xenos tech. Many items they used then are lost... so the imagination is the limit.

[Broodingman87]

Dark Age of Technology setting yes ? well wouldnt be far off what is now - no space marines though, but power armour existed.

umm yeah, I'm talking about the Dark Age of Technology. Actually no, there wouldn't be any power armor, mk1 was invented in the Age of Strife 5 thousand years after the Dark Age of Technology.

[Tyrendian]

mk1 was invented in the Age of Strife 5 thousand years after the Dark Age of Technology.

actually, the Crusade forces encountered a "lost colony" of humanity that had what appeared to be the STC for Power Armour iirc - in one of the Horus trilogy books methinks... Technocracy or some such? and anyway, it's not like Power Armour hasn't been "invented" today, so the thought that the Dark Age of Technology shouldn't have thought of powered armour seems quite silly imho...

[bfmusashi]

Didn't the STCs for super heavy tanks describe them as medium battle tanks?

[Broodingman87]

actually, the Crusade forces encountered a "lost colony" of humanity that had what appeared to be the STC for Power Armour iirc - in one of the Horus trilogy books methinks... Technocracy or some such? and anyway, it's not like Power Armour hasn't been "invented" today, so the thought that the Dark Age of Technology shouldn't have thought of powered armour seems quite silly imho...

While it is true that mk3 and on where made from STCs found during the great crusade, the mk1 and mk2 were used by the techno barbarians on Terra. The rediscovered knowledge were little things like the design for a smaller servo motor or the material for ceremite, and the Adeptus Mechanicus made those changes to the suits. Finding a whole STC for a full suit of power armor does rewrite a lot of fluff, of course when has GW not made fluff contradictions.

Well it's not that they wouldn't have power armor, just not the big hulking suits that we know of, more along the lines of Halo's Spartan armor. Unless you are fighting thing that can throw you i.e. Carnifex, there really isn't a reason to be wearing all that stuff, it'll just slow you down.

[Broodingman87]

Didn't the STCs for super heavy tanks describe them as medium battle tanks?

I don't know that for sure but, I do recall during a game of Apoc a buddy pulling out a model he scratch built that was bigger than a Titan along with a dataslate for a Mechaninus Leviathan iirc that was on par with a Reaver Titan. That could lend some credence to what you're saying.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Leman Russ chassis was a scout tank as well, IIRC.

I've always thought the Tau make a good fit for DAoT humanity. A utopian society of collectivist, technologically advanced humans with an optimist sense of self-destiny born of a naivety and lack of understanding of the horrible, horrible galaxy they live in. (Though does humanity's collective pessimism towards the galaxy in the 41st Millennium manifest as negative emotion, thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy?)

[Path Walker]

Leman Russ chassis wasn't even a tank, it was a tractor.

The best setting would be Unification Wars, I'm hoping thats what the 30K GW game is mistaken for, when you look at the reliable rumours, they said it looked to have power armour that Tony Stark would make in the desert. That sounds more MkI/Techno-Barbarian Variant than Mark IV to me!

That'd be the best, skirmish game amongst the ruins of pre unified Terra, Techno Barbarians, Religious Cults, Thunder Warriors. Like Necromunda but MORE

[Broodingman87]

I've always thought the Tau make a good fit for DAoT humanity. A utopian society of collectivist, technologically advanced humans with an optimist sense of self-destiny born of a naivety and lack of understanding of the horrible, horrible galaxy they live in.

Well, the only reason that the Tau are utopian is because of the Ethereals, My local Tau guy says that Farsight broke free of that mind control in the Farsight Enclave codex. Keep in mind that psykers didn't appear until late in the DAoT, Hell the Navigator gene didn't come till real late. And we all know how much humans has a hard time with the idea of collectivism. While the naivety is there, I think that DAoT humans didn't even comprehend the Eldar, I don't think it was that blissful and happy a time.

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they said it looked to have power armour that Tony Stark would make in the desert. That sounds more MkI/Techno-Barbarian Variant than Mark IV to me!

Yeah, the fluff specifically states that the mk1 was incredibly noisy.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Well, the only reason that the Tau are utopian is because of the Ethereals, My local Tau guy says that Farsight broke free of that mind control in the Farsight Enclave codex. Keep in mind that psykers didn't appear until late in the DAoT, Hell the Navigator gene didn't come till real late. And we all know how much humans has a hard time with the idea of collectivism. While the naivety is there, I think that DAoT humans didn't even comprehend the Eldar, I don't think it was that blissful and happy a time.

I didn't mean happy as in they skipped through the Warp on rainbow bridges to seek the Gumdrop Planet. I meant happy for 40K, which is standard issue for most Sci-fi. Mankind probably fought several wars for its existence against other small Xenos factions, claimed land and slowly learned the art of void warfare and travel, terraformation, and the other things which make a prosperous multi-system empire.

The way it's typically presented is that Mankind gets together for the most part, not ideal Collectivism but more the usual Us vs Them deal. Science is supported and lauded, utilised to its fullest to progress the evolution of their empire.

Most of all, Mankind is egotistical in that even now, hell even on this board, we have a belief that we'll win all the fights, make peace or war with adversaries, and be a big boy empire sprawling across greater amounts of space than a singular human mind can comprehend. The DAoT humanity would probably feel the same, buoyed by the fact that they're out there with the technology and presence to do it now. I personally don't believe that belief in how special we are, and our Manifest Destiny would ever die. Hell, in the 41st Millennium it's the only thing most of humanity has left to hold onto.

So yeah, maybe not perfect Collectivism like the Tau, but the atheistic and scientific approach, the somewhat naive sense of purpose and destiny, I can see that being a trait of humanity. Eldar would be interesting in that setting though. They'd ultimately be gods, and I wonder how the Orks would be as well. Perhaps there could be proto-Dark Eldar, maybe set it at the tipping point, with Psykers appearing, Daemons breaking into Realspace, and the Fall already past the event horizon towards damnation...

[Charon]

Keep in mind that psykers didn't appear until late in the DAoT

Not corrdect, magicans, shamans (the source of the emperor), witches,... have been around since the dawn of humanity.
The Emperor himself predates the DaoT by far and he was created by a shamanistic circle.

[Broodingman87]

I didn't mean happy as in they skipped through the Warp on rainbow bridges to seek the Gumdrop Planet. I meant happy for 40K, which is standard issue for most Sci-fi. Mankind probably fought several wars for its existence against other small Xenos factions, claimed land and slowly learned the art of void warfare and travel, terraformation, and the other things which make a prosperous multi-system empire.

The way it's typically presented is that Mankind gets together for the most part, not ideal Collectivism but more the usual Us vs Them deal. Science is supported and lauded, utilised to its fullest to progress the evolution of their empire.

Most of all, Mankind is egotistical in that even now, hell even on this board, we have a belief that we'll win all the fights, make peace or war with adversaries, and be a big boy empire sprawling across greater amounts of space than a singular human mind can comprehend. The DAoT humanity would probably feel the same, buoyed by the fact that they're out there with the technology and presence to do it now. I personally don't believe that belief in how special we are, and our Manifest Destiny would ever die. Hell, in the 41st Millennium it's the only thing most of humanity has left to hold onto.

So yeah, maybe not perfect Collectivism like the Tau, but the atheistic and scientific approach, the somewhat naive sense of purpose and destiny, I can see that being a trait of humanity. Eldar would be interesting in that setting though. They'd ultimately be gods, and I wonder how the Orks would be as well. Perhaps there could be proto-Dark Eldar, maybe set it at the tipping point, with Psykers appearing, Daemons breaking into Realspace, and the Fall already past the event horizon towards damnation...


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
- H.P. Lovecraft - Call of Cthulhu

Of Course, the rude awakening is a story older then dirt and I agree that should be the main plot of DAoT. But, I don't think since the Garden of Eden has there ever been a story of the entire human race hearing the pop of their heads coming out of their a*ses for the first time.

[Path Walker]

Not corrdect, magicans, shamans (the source of the emperor), witches,... have been around since the dawn of humanity.
The Emperor himself predates the DaoT by far and he was created by a shamanistic circle.

Nothing to support the Shaman theory any more is there?

[Psychosplodge]

Who knows?

Do you remember the deletion scene in the soul drinkers series? I imagine GW's retcon hammer is wielded in a similar manner

[Broodingman87]

Do you remember the deletion scene in the soul drinkers series?

I don't, I tried to Youtube it, but no such luck.

[grimmas]

Wasn't the widespread use of AI an almost cataclysmic event during the DAoT. I believe First and Only covers this a bit, with mention of golden men creating iron men to fight for them and nearly being destroyed by them, a sort of Butlerian Jihad type situation (and we know 40K borrows quite heavily from the Dune Universe). It could be quite interesting but the Crusade/Heresy seems a better prospect to me and let's face it the last 30 years have kind of shown the universe realies pretty heavily on the Astartes

[Broodingman87]

Wasn't the widespread use of AI an almost cataclysmic event during the DAoT. I believe First and Only covers this a bit, with mention of golden men creating iron men to fight for them and nearly being destroyed by them, a sort of Butlerian Jihad type situation (and we know 40K borrows quite heavily from the Dune Universe). It could be quite interesting but the Crusade/Heresy seems a better prospect to me and let's face it the last 30 years have kind of shown the universe realies pretty heavily on the Astartes

Yeah the Iron men gain sapience and wanted independence, It's funny how the Iron men are foreshadowing the Necrons.

[Beaviz81]

Yeah the Iron men gain sapience and wanted independence, It's funny how the Iron men are foreshadowing the Necrons.

I always were under the impression that Chaos had something to do with them rebelling as well as they getting independent thought.

[Stephen James Hand]

I'd love it if someone started doing 20k stuff, it's part of the 40k lore I always wished had more meat on it's bones because there's a lot of potential.

I always think the references to enormous DAoT weapons (Imperator Titan's bigger brother and tanks that make Baneblades look like ride on mowers etc.) it doesn't really fit well with the rest of the DAoT lore (such as it is). As I understand it in 20k humans were a new kid on the galactic block at the time, having to deal with larger, more established Xenos neighbours who had access to much more resource that they did. If that were true it would make more sense for them to have small, nimble, flexible forces that could be rapidly deployed and fit with a maneuverist strategy, just like 40k Tau do. Uber Titans and Super Duper Heavy tanks don't really fit with this, these are more the kind of weapons used by forces who fight wars of attrition, using their superior numbers and resources to grind smaller enemies down over time, because massive stuff like this requires huge resources to build and probably can't be deployed rapidly either. I think DAoT vehicles would be more advanced, but on the whole smaller and lighter than 40k Imperium stuff, not bigger & heavier

I would think the current Admech stuff would be a good start point for the look of DAoT human tech, tentacles, servo skulls, insect like walkers, tanks with weird weapons etc. (lets face it, it's probably DAoT technology giving the Admech that 'look' anyway), but with fully robotic Iron Men rather than servitors and cyborgs. I think it would be a shame to make the DAoT forces look like a 'normal' Starship Troopers type sci fi army. Whilst the tau have stuck to safer, more convetional tech, DAoT humans were all about messing about with the warp and other strange forces, nothing was off limits. References to tech from the era often refers to it as 'weird' and outlandish, this would need to be reflected in their weaponry, the vehicles and weapons should look a bit weird and sinister (just like the admech stuff), to reflect that they are built using dangerous 'heretical' tech. The Iron Men should definitely have an unmistakable air of menace about them.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I always felt that stuff like Titans or Baneblades are customised and adapted designs from the Dark Age. Who's to say they're any more legitimate as actual field-deployed designs than that massive tank the Na*is were reportedly developing until they realised it couldn't move? We don't know in what capacity STCs were regarded at the time, they might not be the bibles of technological knowledge people in the 30K/40K continuum consider them to be.

There's a story, I can't remember which, where they accidentally activate a Chrono weapon on an ancient Imperial battleship, wiping out a Necron fleet as it turns them to dust. I think the Dark Age is meant to be the apex of human civilisation, the highest we could ever hope to get as the stumbling, blind species we are in the grand scheme of things. It's possible that the Warp was harnessed directly as an energy source, maybe development of a pseudo-Webway between worlds was underway. Who knows? The possibilities are endless.

I've always seen 40K as the story of what happens after every other Sci-Fi universe ended their story. Firefly, Star Trek, even Halo could all have happened in some form or other, and even as Mankind pushes towards increasing greatness in stories like Star Trek, it'll ultimately end in collapse afterwards. Sci-Fi is full of the stories of Mankind's rise to galactic power, 40K is the story of the fall from grace and how long, how drawn out the end would be. It's not in any way realistic, but it's amusing how almost every sci-fi story out there could theoretically be happening in the 40K universe, or at least, have happened in said universe.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I would love to see the Ork race during the DAoT or 20k setting. With the Ullanor Ork warboss almost killing the Emperor, it would be pretty cool to see the scale of such stuff. I think if the Baneblade was a medium tank or Leman Russ a Scout Tank/Tractor, then maybe using the Epic set of rules and that scale (15mm?) would be best to represent what great marvels that the universe lost. Humans weren't the only race to loose tech over the course of time.

[Cactus]

I was actually thinking about a 20k game setting might be like the other day and then I found this thread...

I think the central themes would have to still be rooted in the Gothic tradition, mostly the hubris of humanity; Imperialism, colonization, "missionaries", and of course the creation of artificial intelligence that turns on humanity - ala Frankenstein.

Personally, I'd set the game during the period where interstellar travel was still possible and the Men of Iron are just starting to turn against their human masters. This would allow for a variety of factions to battle in a variety of settings. Colonists, Imperial armies, trade groups (like the East India Co.), native populations of Xenos, robot men, as well as even a few corrupted armies touched by Chaos.

[Khain Mor]

actually, the Crusade forces encountered a "lost colony" of humanity that had what appeared to be the STC for Power Armour iirc - in one of the Horus trilogy books methinks... Technocracy or some such? and anyway, it's not like Power Armour hasn't been "invented" today, so the thought that the Dark Age of Technology shouldn't have thought of powered armour seems quite silly imho...

I do remember this, don't remember the book either, but I know what you're talking about, their armor was something close to the SM armor, but they were smaller, though still formidable opponents. They basically had the armor, but no the genetics behind it.

[Khain Mor]

you know it'd be a pretty interesting universe, there would be a ton of human factions, just on earth alone, several factions (which the Emperor united). Lower tech, but still fair tech. You did have rogue psykers already, the Emperor had to deal with them during his unification of earth.

There would be a ton of xenos factions in space, some even with some chaos influence, but no deamons yet very far from that, mainly chaos taint or some minor influence, though they could posses some chaos artifacts.

The big bad guys would be the eldar, a super advanced race with robot armies, they would be the tyranids of the universe except that they already colonised it. No proto dark eldar yet, only regular eldar, you'd barely see any eldar in their armies, as their armies were compremised of wraithconstructs only.

You also had orks, like always, necrons would be deep asleep, Tau didn't exist yet, nids didn't arrive yet, obviously none of the eldar subfactions. Modelwise it wouldn't be too easy to create, humans would have so many alternatives, same for xenos, you'd have to create a ton of new xenos races from scratch both fluff & aethetics coming from nothing.


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Now the tech talk, you know it's very interesting how humans did colonise the entire universe even without warp travel & such, somehow they were very advanced, at some point humanity mastered antigravity tech and they did have a good fast way to travel, possibly webway travel?

[Psychosplodge]

I don't, I tried to Youtube it, but no such luck.

It's a black library book. *spoiler -do not quote* they burn down the archive and kill all the witnesses*spoiler*

[Broodingman87]

Oh, Where I quoted H.P. Lovecraft? I thought I did it right, it was a obvious quote and I attributed the artist.

Edit: Oh, I thought you were calling me out on something... but now I see what you did there!

[Psychosplodge]

:D

[Jmaximum]

actually, the Crusade forces encountered a "lost colony" of humanity that had what appeared to be the STC for Power Armour iirc - in one of the Horus trilogy books methinks... Technocracy or some such? and anyway, it's not like Power Armour hasn't been "invented" today, so the thought that the Dark Age of Technology shouldn't have thought of powered armour seems quite silly imho...

I don't remember which titled book it was, but it was early in the series, before all of the spinoff shenanigans story lines.
Great story... I believe the technocracy invited the Imperium with open arms, even Loken speaking amiably with a cptn of the Techno forces, and things are going great, until Erebus steals the Anatheme sword from the Technocracy museum that eventually almost kinda but not quite kills Horus, setting the path for his downward spiral.

[dusara217]

I'd love it if someone started doing 20k stuff, it's part of the 40k lore I always wished had more meat on it's bones because there's a lot of potential.

I always think the references to enormous DAoT weapons (Imperator Titan's bigger brother and tanks that make Baneblades look like ride on mowers etc.) it doesn't really fit well with the rest of the DAoT lore (such as it is). As I understand it in 20k humans were a new kid on the galactic block at the time, having to deal with larger, more established Xenos neighbours who had access to much more resource that they did. If that were true it would make more sense for them to have small, nimble, flexible forces that could be rapidly deployed and fit with a maneuverist strategy, just like 40k Tau do. Uber Titans and Super Duper Heavy tanks don't really fit with this, these are more the kind of weapons used by forces who fight wars of attrition, using their superior numbers and resources to grind smaller enemies down over time, because massive stuff like this requires huge resources to build and probably can't be deployed rapidly either. I think DAoT vehicles would be more advanced, but on the whole smaller and lighter than 40k Imperium stuff, not bigger & heavier

I would think the current Admech stuff would be a good start point for the look of DAoT human tech, tentacles, servo skulls, insect like walkers, tanks with weird weapons etc. (lets face it, it's probably DAoT technology giving the Admech that 'look' anyway), but with fully robotic Iron Men rather than servitors and cyborgs. I think it would be a shame to make the DAoT forces look like a 'normal' Starship Troopers type sci fi army. Whilst the tau have stuck to safer, more convetional tech, DAoT humans were all about messing about with the warp and other strange forces, nothing was off limits. References to tech from the era often refers to it as 'weird' and outlandish, this would need to be reflected in their weaponry, the vehicles and weapons should look a bit weird and sinister (just like the admech stuff), to reflect that they are built using dangerous 'heretical' tech. The Iron Men should definitely have an unmistakable air of menace about them.
You do realize that DAoT humans had tech that rivalled necron tech, right? Not only that, they only Empire that rivalled them was the Eldar Empire, as they were able annihilate any foes that didn't ally with them. When the Iron Men rebelled, it was devestating, but the death knell to their empire was Slaanesh's birth; the preceding Warp Storms isolated the human planets and the lack of trade and communication screwed everyone over for 5k years (when Slaanesh finished birthing).

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I would love to see the Ork race during the DAoT or 20k setting. With the Ullanor Ork warboss almost killing the Emperor, it would be pretty cool to see the scale of such stuff. I think if the Baneblade was a medium tank or Leman Russ a Scout Tank/Tractor, then maybe using the Epic set of rules and that scale (15mm?) would be best to represent what great marvels that the universe lost. Humans weren't the only race to loose tech over the course of time.

Orks would likely be the same as they are in 40k, just less united