Apocolypse Help: Marines vs Orks.

[MC Tic Tac]

Righto,

My club is running a camapgin at the moment and next week is a team based Apocolypse game. All 3 marine players (including me) vs the 3 ork players. 2k per player so 6k a team.

Problem is (as far as I can see) is that at Apoc Maines suck. And 'swarms' Orks/Nids/Guard rule.

Also as Marines we have next to Jack on Super heavy killing abilities (without drafting in Guard), and I know the Orks will field at least 2 Stompas. And us 3 Marines players have no Titans etc.

So I was thinking; Organise the Marines so we fight as Marines do (in fluff) one Presisce strike;

No marines deploy.
No resevres turn up in turns 1 or 2 (See apoc book as to how/why)
Well all arrive on turn 3, with around 35 Deep Strikeing Temies (Deathknell formation), some Death Company, and a had full of Tac squads etc in rhinos using flank march.
We get to shoot/charge what we want and pick off the Orks rear guard, and thier objectives in thier deployment zone and maybe no mans land.
- Presuming the other 2 marine players aggree with me.

As far as I can see if the Marines start on the board;
We will be shot too hell by the stompas and sheer weight of Numbers
We will get charged by Mad Doc, Gazkhull and many, many Orks most of who will be meched up. Most of who will flank march as 2 of my Orky opponents always do so they move on all around us and charge too.
-and we will die without a fight.

So what do you guys think as to Apoc Marines vs Orks and of my plan/theroy generalship?

Any other advice would be welcomed.

[Sir Biscuit]

First, marines are hardly bad in apocalypse, especially against Orks. I imagine the three of you could put together an Armored Spearhead formation of three redeemers with extra armor, which will smash a hell of a lot of orks.

The biggest problem with 2k apoc marines is that it's difficult to field their special squadrons, as many are 100+ marines strong. Good ones to look at v orks at this point level are the Suppression Force, Line Breaker Squadron, and the aforementioned Armored Spearhead.

As for Stompa Killing, try Marneous Calgar with a legion relic for a nasty surprise. 8 S10 I5 attacks puts the hurt on any superheavy, and... well... everything else. For extra fun, put him with thunder hammer terminators in the Armored Spearhead.

For additional strategic assets, definitely the Hammer Blow asset. If you're not fielding any super heavies of your own, it'll do tremendous damage where it counts. Obstacles and Minefield both give you "tack" options to slow down the enemy. Jammers is another fantastic one, especially against three orks! If your opponents can't discuss deployment with a triple-horde army, you'll earn yourself a much easier battleline to deal with. Either they'll have to reserve a bunch of stuff, or they'll have to get out the the entanglement they deployed in.

Also keep scheduled bombardment in mind. Orks tend to follow pretty predictable patterns of movement, so you should be able to plot it pretty well.

Also, the deathknell might not be a great choice. Ork Boyz of either type are one of the better match ups in the game against termies. I would also say deploy on field. You can field a hell of a lot more ordinance than the orks, and it's important to put the hurt on early.

[MC Tic Tac]

Thanks for that Sir Biscuit.

Well I'm perosnally using a Pure Terminator/1st company Force for his campagin (UltraSmurfs last stand on Magcragge vs NIds). My Blood Angel mate is using a Rather balance/shooty BA list. 3rd mate has a bog standard foot slogger marine list with a raider full of Hammers/SS's.

We could get the Land Raider squadrons, maybe even the 'fast' blood angels one.

Being 12" away from an Ork horde is going to hurt. Mech + 1st turn Wagghh!!!! will be problem.

[lobster-overlord]

You said Death Company, and I've played BA in Apoc a few times against Orks. I run squadrons of BAAL Predators and annihilate the Tide and then use the ACs against the stompas and bigger stuff to great affect.

John M>

[Sir Biscuit]

The trick is to not deploy at the edge of no-mans-land. Just because that's where it's drawn doesn't mean you have to deploy right up against it. In fact, since apocalypse tables tend to be so big, I've found you can often eek out MORE turns of shooting against an assault army if you deploy far back.

[Walls]

The trick is not to worry for a darned second about win/loss and have as much fun as possible. Otherwise you miss the point of apoc.

[Sir Biscuit]

I refuse to believe the point of Apocalypse is "Have fun losing!"

Half the fun of Apocalypse is the planning of grand strategies. You can bet the other team is doing it too. There's nothing wrong with asking for, and giving, good tactical advice on the subject.

[MC Tic Tac]

The trick is not to worry for a darned second about win/loss and have as much fun as possible. Otherwise you miss the point of apoc.

I know that, but as a Campagin game I want to try and win but one of the Ork players always wins, as he is really lucky most of the time.

Most of I just want a fun close game, and at the moment I can't see it happening sadly

[GM Rex Nihilo]

I have a Salamander list and I have played an Apoc game against Orks with a Stompa with out a Super heavy in my army list. I found my Sternguard with Meltaguns worked well, then my TH/SS Termies finished it off. Flamers are also you friend against filthy Orkses! :)

[tjkopena]

Marines are definitely totally viable in Apocalypse.

The comment above about starting as far back as possible and possibly getting in even more turns of shooting is definitely a valid one. Just take care to remember Snikrot, and protect your guys from Orks coming in directly on top of them off any of the table edges.

Bringing everybody in on Turn 3 sounds really questionable to me. You would be just giving them two turns to get exactly where they want---particularly bad if you're playing for objectives---and you're blowing two turns of shooting. If you drop in like that, you need to be prepared for an assault game, because you're going to be wrapped up in it right away. While Marines are ok at assault, their strength is really their balance across almost all aspects of the game. Throwing away opportunities for shooting doesn't play to that.

I wouldn't be super worried about the super-heavies. I've had Sternguard drop down and pop Baneblades in the first round of shooting. Between Sternguard, Dreadnoughts, las Preds, MM 'Speeders, and so on, there are a lot of options to deal with the Stompas. I personally use Sternguard and Landspeeders for my anti-vehicle. The thing you need to watch out for there is the Stratagem that reincarnates a super-heavy, countering Sternguard Drop Pod alpha strikes (once it comes back on, you've burned your combi-meltas and are probably out of place regardless).

Besides the traditional stuff, Thunderfire Cannons are also great against Orks for your anti-horde component, and well suited to Apoc tables where you can set them well back out of the way (60" range).

[Aenir]

Wouldnt a conversion beamer be good?

Longer range is higher strength so you could hide it in the back

Im not quite sure as I dont play vanilla marines

[Sir Biscuit]

Well, it's at its best, which is okay, but it's also pricier than a vindicator. Decisions, decisions.

[entendre_entendre]

Whirlwinds are your friends, just plunk 'em behind something nice and big to hide from angry Stompas. ;)

The 4 missile launcher dev squad can do wonders in thinning out the horde.

You could just show up with a 9th company list, but that might break your theme.

I totally agree with the Thunderfires (and anything else with a blast template for that matter) and iirc, the TC has a difficult terrain causing blast which could slow the waves down. Since TC are part of the armoury, it is conceivable to have them in a 1st company list while maintaining theme.

Just deploy back and nuke anything quick (or large), then deal with the boyz on foot. Assault if necessary. DS some termies in the backfield (i.e. behind the Stompas) for some fun. The termies can take on any fire support (lootas, etc.) and if the Stompas want to shoot at them effectively, then they have to show their butts to the rest of your army.

[MC Tic Tac]

I happy to report Victory to The Combined forces of the Ultramarine 1st Company, 3rd Company and the Blood Angels 1st and 2nd Companies.

Forces where roughly:

Me: Lysander aka Captain Incivtus
Deathknell Formation:
8 Assault Temies with Claws
8 Assault Termies with Hammers/SS
5 Termies with 1 Chainfist, Heavy Flamer
5 Termies with 2 Chainfists, Heavy Flamer
10 Termies with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 chain fists
Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer in a Pod

Blood Angels:
2nd Deathknell formation of 35 termies (7 five man squads, 2 of which where assault termies) and 2 dreads
6 Death Company and Chaplin.
Baal Predator
Predator Annhilator

Ultramarine 3rd Company Elements:
3 Tactical Squads
LR Crusader
Predator Destructor
Terminator Libby (who joined a Deathknell Squad)
Chaplin Cassius with 7 Sternguard

Vs Many Orks and Grots on Foot
The Bike Special Charactor and Bikers
Old Zogwart Character and a mob
4 boyz squads in Trukks
Mad Doc Grotsnik with Slugga boyz in trukk
8 Burna boys and Warboss in Battlewagon
1 Stompa
1 Big Mekboy Stompa
Mek Boy and the big gun thingy
Lots of Grots with a Warboss
3 Deffcopters
3 Killa Kans
3 Rokkit buggies
3 Flamer Buggies

Marine Assets:
Tank Traps
Vital Objective (one objective in our half counts as 2 if we hold it)
Strategic redeployment for my Units

Orks Assets:
Supreme HQ
Disruption Field (Deep strikers and reseveres in 48" on a 4+ get put where the orks like OUCH!!)
Flank March on the Grot player

Battle went as planned in my orginal post but with 2 Deathknell Formations.
3 turns of Ork Movement ment they spread out across the table contesting all 6 objectives, mech forces where a little bottle necked by the tank traps.

When the whole Marine force showed up on turn 3 all Ork Resistance in our deployment zone was either killed or reduced beyond combat effectiveness (this was most of the mech units and outflanking grots). Ethnic cleansing with bolter and blade at it's best.

The Ork counter was hard from the stompas, who took most terminator squads down a man or two as most of the orks moved in postion to counter next turn. Or got stuck in vs most of the blood angels infantry.

At the end of turn 5 we rolled for random game length, got an extra turn. As it stood both stompas where on a no man's land objective each. Marines held the vital objective worth 2, one marine objective was contested by a buggy and both objectives in the ork deployment zone where in greenskin hands.

Marines took both of thier objectives and as the Gamed ended at the end of turn 6, The lone Land Raider was contesting a objective in no man's land with a stompa, while the other was contested by a damaged stompa who was in the process of being violated by Lysander and 1 Thunder hammer termie who was just with in 6 inches of the objective.

So it was 2-2 but since one of ours was worth 2 it was actually 3-2 to the Marines.

Victory just by the skin of our teeth.

In hindsight, the desion to with hold till turn 3 worked a treat, it mean the Orks had spread themselves out so we could maximize most of the Astartes Force on roughly 20% of thier army at a time.

The Tanks traps where ok-ish, it kept a large portion of the mech ork forces to a smaller part of the table so when the termies came down we could take them piece meal. But I think we could of done without them.

Didn't even use the redeployment, but having the option was handy.

The Orks dispuption system was in thier zone so we just kept away and fought for our deployment zone and no man's land, keeping the ork 'home units' out of the fight.

The Ork players really did not like us holding our whole force in reserve, and fighting on our terms, to our strengths. It really caught themout. (As if we are going to give 1st turn/outflanking charges away for free).

I'm just happy it was a close game, as if there was another turn the orks could of won by simply having the mech stomp thorw the land raider away with its picking up weapon, and pourring mass fire power on Lysnader and his drinking buddy.


I think over all it really proves resevres play a big role in 40k and even more so in Apocolypse. And taking Formations in Apoc helps get things when and where you want to, and effectively, and that vital objective is a game winner!

I'm just very surprised we won!

COURAGE AND HONOUR!

[AirHorse]

Sounds like an interesting game :P I bet the ork players were annoyed at all those terminators :P

In apocalypse games ive played I find the most effective way to use my marines is to simply give my tactical squads longer ranged heavy weapons like missile launchers or lascannons. Ultimately in a game of apocalypse you can make the range on those weapons really count, and theres nothing that brings down stompas like massed missile and lascannon fire :)

As for the close combat, well unless they use some of those formations etc that let them get massive moves and still assault i find its not to hard to send out a combat squad as a "sacrifice" to lure them on into your nice 12" zone of bolter death, maybe topped off with some flamers and well orks will die lots :).

You know you could always just grab a warhound titan and drop some destroyer hits and massive templates on their faces :) Nothing is quite as satisfying as watching that ork player who spent the entire build up to a game of apoc going on about his green tide formation take off one hundred orks and a warboss after the first shots of the game :)