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Lupin
02-21-2010, 01:48 PM
A friend of mine started playing nids and hes very confused about the lack of effectiveness of his troops when assaulting anything that is in cover falling to ini 1. Move through cover but no grenades... how weird...

if you have ideas for helping him get the most out of his troops...he's having a hard time getting his point back... i dont know much the nids codex but any flamer type of gun or frag grenades or combo or anything?

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

DarkLink
02-21-2010, 03:10 PM
The lack of frag grenades seems to be an entirely intentional change on GW's part, intended to maintain game balance. Frankly, it makes sense to me. Fluff-wise, what's the point in setting up defensive gunlines if the enemy horde just completely ignores them. Having cover slow down 'nidz fits thematically, as it is only desperate defense the defenders use to try and hold back the horde for that much longer.

There are virtually no units with frag grenades, or to be more precise no units that can get offensive grenades.

There are only one or two flamer templates in the codex, including one on certain gaunt squads. I can't really relate to its effectiveness, as flamers on footslogging squads are not generally particularly effective. It's very difficult to get a footslogging squad into position to get good template coverage, minimizing the effectiveness of the weapon.

Your friend should probably try out some of the units that allow you to disrupt his opponent's deployments. Outflanking genestealers, deepstriking carnifexes, burrowing trygon/mawlocs, etc. One or two of those units might be able to mess with his opponent's plans enough to let him overwhelm his opponent.

therealjohnny5
02-21-2010, 03:54 PM
There are only one or two flamer templates in the codex, including one on certain gaunt squads. I can't really relate to its effectiveness, as flamers on footslogging squads are not generally particularly effective. It's very difficult to get a footslogging squad into position to get good template coverage, minimizing the effectiveness of the weapon.

*cough*....*look over here*....drop pods, er...well, um....Mycetic spores....:D

Unlighted
02-21-2010, 06:48 PM
Tyranid troops do have a tough time assaulting into cover.

If you're trying to use the basic type of gaunt then you're going to have to have some support.

One good support would be to have a Hive Tyrant use Paroxysm to reduce the enemy weapon skill to 1. After that even humble gaunts have the better weapon skill greatly lowering their losses from the enemy striking first. Genestealers wouldn't benefit as much from this, but it will be great for gaunts of any sort.

Another good support would be to have a Tervigon use Catalyst to give Feel No Pain to the troops assaulting into cover. If they enemy has lots of power weapons this won't be effective, but if they only have basic weapons then this will help keep the troops alive to strike back.

If your friend wanted to go for a more expensive troop he could use Warriors with bonesword and Lashwhip. The Lashwhip makes the enemy Initiative 1 while the Bonesword is a power weapon with a chance at Instant Death to any target with multiple wounds.

Hope he has some better luck.

Nabterayl
02-21-2010, 06:59 PM
One good support would be to have a Hive Tyrant use Paroxysm to reduce the enemy weapon skill to 1. After that even humble gaunts have the better weapon skill greatly lowering their losses from the enemy striking first. Genestealers wouldn't benefit as much from this, but it will be great for gaunts of any sort.
I dunno ... getting hit on 5's sounds pretty good to me for just about any unit.

Ferro
02-21-2010, 07:16 PM
Carnifexes can have frag grenades, and up to I4 on the charge. Lictors and Deathleaper have frag grenades.

There are a couple of pinning/blast weapons in the codex. If you can manage to pin an enemy squad, then when you assault that squad you do not have to reduce your Init. down to one. Admittedly, this combo has about a 4% chance of working for you in the field, but theoretically, it is possible.

Ghoulio
02-21-2010, 09:07 PM
The lack of frag grenades seems to be an entirely intentional change on GW's part, intended to maintain game balance. Frankly, it makes sense to me. Fluff-wise, what's the point in setting up defensive gunlines if the enemy horde just completely ignores them. Having cover slow down 'nidz fits thematically, as it is only desperate defense the defenders use to try and hold back the horde for that much longer.

The only problem with this literally every single other army in the game can get assault grenades (other then Tau I think, but they aren't an assault army). Even orks can get them (even though there really isnt much benefit). I can understand "fluff" reasons, but I can't understand game balance reasons. I just do not understand why genestealers don't get them. Sure, gaunts I could see since you are supposed to have so many of them, but stealers? Really? This combined with the sheer volume of WS 3 units in the codex make breaking enemy lines in cover challenging. My only hope is that armies that come after nids will follow this, but I can't really see it as blood angels are next.

I dont know how big of a deal this is going to end up being, as the only things so far with this book that I have actually assaulted into cover is with my deathleaper, so it didnt matter. Hopefully it won't be that big of a deal.

As far as how to deal with it, my only suggestions would be either paroxyms-ing a unit before you assault (if you can) or try to hit sunk in units on multiple fronts. Other then that don't assault with small units of gaunts :)

AbusePuppy
02-21-2010, 10:24 PM
A pure-assault Tyranid army is going to struggle against enemies in cover, it's true. Some options include:

-Initiate the assault with an MC or other critter that is tough enough to survive the initial round of attacks. Oh noes, all those Guardsmen got to attack your Trygon first! Be careful of Power Fists, though.

-Lash Whips. They work like old frag grenades (you both strike at the same time), which is better than nothing. Remember, the defender must get as many models into base-to-base with his Defenders React move as possible.

-Use one of our few units with grenades to hit them first. Carnifexes can buy them, Lictors start with them, Harpies get an upgraded version.

-A Mawloc can push them right out of cover if you manage to score a hit, and can fall back on the first suggestion if that fails. It's almost sorta like having your own Lash of Submission!

-Make him get the hell out of cover to claim objectives. Place your objectives out in the open, away from cover where possible. Does he want to keep his guys alive or win the game? Force him to make that choice.

-Paroxysm. It's already been mentioned, but WS1 is pretty crippling. Combine with any of the above tactics for a combat that's practically guaranteed to go your way.


Armies with more shooting should have less of an issue with units in cover, as our weapons generally rely on volume of shots, not high AP. If you have a hybrid shooty/bitey army, just make sure you can put some Devourer or Deathspitter fire onto a target to force a morale check.

Tynskel
02-22-2010, 02:12 AM
Maybe I am odd, but I never used the Frags n' 4th edition. I just charged so many guys in that they couldn't do anything about it. With Pyroxysm, my army get tons of a lot better. Also that Carnifex is Bad @$$. Love 'em to death- I4, re-roll to hit, 5 attacks, St10 and a Plasma Cannon!

Mobious
02-22-2010, 04:47 PM
Tyranids dealing with cover? Well lets say you have a Genestealer heavy force, then you make sure to pack units like Ravenors that you can use to get to the enemy quickly, lock them up and then assault with the Stealers at normal initiative. This also stops the enemy from allocating attacks to the Stealers by the way.

Sir Biscuit
02-22-2010, 06:08 PM
It doesn't stop them from getting the cover bonus unless the 'stealers assault the turn after the the ravenors, who are hopefully still tying them up. And there is no situation where you would be unable to allocate attacks to the 'stealers.

Tynskel
02-22-2010, 06:43 PM
It doesn't stop them from getting the cover bonus unless the 'stealers assault the turn after the the ravenors, who are hopefully still tying them up. And there is no situation where you would be unable to allocate attacks to the 'stealers.

That's what mobious said...

Sir Biscuit
02-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Tyranids dealing with cover? Well lets say you have a Genestealer heavy force, then you make sure to pack units like Ravenors that you can use to get to the enemy quickly, lock them up and then assault with the Stealers at normal initiative. This also stops the enemy from allocating attacks to the Stealers by the way.

I beg to differ.

I was only trying to clarify the statement, by helping to clarify the vague part of the statement (the ravenors and 'stealers assaulting part) by explaining that the assaults have to happen on subsequent turns, which the original post does not state. In addition, there is no situation where both the genestealers and ravenors would be locked in combat with the same enemy unit, and that enemy unit wouldn't be able to allocate attacks against both units.
That is all.

DarkLink
02-22-2010, 10:07 PM
*cough*....*look over here*....drop pods, er...well, um....Mycetic spores....:D

I did mention drop pods as a means to help solve his problem;)

Mobious
02-22-2010, 10:56 PM
Oh sorry I was not clear. You use the Ravenors to lock someone down until the Stealers can assault the subsequent turn. This may not always work, seeing as the Ravenors might die, but when it does work it is nice.

Also with some skill at moving models you can use two units--of say Termagants--flanking both sides of a Stealer unit to pull attacks away from the Stealers. Allowing you to reduce the number of attacks able to be allocated to the Stealers. I know it is hard to visualize because it is also hard to explain. If you get it nice, if you do not here is a nice place to figure it out.

http://www.****************.com/2010/01/tyranid-review-genestealers.html

Oh and what I was referring to in regards to not being able to attack the Stealers is this, under Multiple Combats on page 41, "Models engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

Ultimately, if you are locked in combat with enemy unit A and enemy unit B charges you not only do you not get bonuses from cover or defensive grenades, but you also cannot allocate attacks onto enemy unit B.

Sir Biscuit
02-22-2010, 11:28 PM
Ah, I see. Totally reasonable.

And I had never noticed that paculiarity on page 41. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, and furthering my knowledge. This one's for you, kid.

COOKIE RETRACTED

DarkLink
02-23-2010, 12:13 AM
Well, the thing is pg 41 states 'at the beginning of combat'. That's not the beggining of the assault phase. That's after assault moves are made but before you start rolling, I believe. So you would be in base with the assaulting squad 'at the beginning of combat'.

Of course, I'm too lazy to actually look anything up to provide evidence. I've either been in class or working almost nonstop on school stuff since 0700 (it's 2212 right now). That's from 7am-10pm, for those of you who can't read military time:p.

Sir Biscuit
02-23-2010, 12:19 AM
I AM CONFUSED. All cookies retracted until someone sets me straight!

Nabterayl
02-23-2010, 12:47 AM
DarkLink is correct. The beginning of combat is after all assault moves and reaction moves have been made. It's the part of the assault phase that happens at Initiative 11, if you like to think about it that way.

Sir Biscuit
02-23-2010, 12:49 AM
Thank you. DarkLink and Nabterayl, share this gift I give to you.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3848/cookiek.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/cookiek.jpg/)

Mobious
02-23-2010, 08:27 AM
Oh really? I guess that makes sense, but then what is that rule for? Just so you can attack even if they remove the model you in base to base with?

Ferro
02-23-2010, 08:55 AM
precisely. The rule eliminates the 4th ed practice of creative model removal affecting who can fight from step to step in the combat. All those shenanigans are gone.

At the start of the assault phase, after all models have been moved correctly, but before any dice are rolled, take a mental picture of the scene. Which unit is engaged with which unit... and remember that.

Then, for the duration of that assault phase, said units always get to attack whoever they were engaged with at the start of combat, even if models have been lifted such that the units aren't in b2b any more.

rle68
02-23-2010, 03:46 PM
Alot of this is situational in all details becareful when trying this against wolves units who have lots of little addons that will hit on 3's regardless of the weapon skill and also make sure that you do realize that the lash whip only affects models in base to base with the model or models in range as well of the model using the lash whip so some models may not be affected by this.. specifically some ic wolves characters that you may not be able to dictate how you assault them