End Times Archaon - Spoilerific Discussion [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Cap'nSmurfs

03-07-2015, 12:40 PM

I'm pretty sure Nagash is Incarnate of Death. The reason he had to go to Nehekhara was to purge himself of the Curse of Khaine and rebuild his strength (diminished by the incomplete resurrection) so that he might take the Wind of Death into himself. Teclis wanted to delay it (in which he was successful), not prevent it. I assume he's completed the ritual by now, and the Curse of Khaine no longer exists. Or maybe he hasn't; that would be interesting.

(Although of course one of Nagash's rules is "Death Magic Incarnate", so.)

Other snippets, culled from White Dwarf and the iBooks previews:

okay there's a breakdown of "eight high points" from White Dwarf
1. Fateweaver and the Everchosen "negotiating" in Middenheim
2. The Oak of Ages bears "incredible fruit" (apparently a "fistpump" moment)
3. Incarnate of Beasts gives them their favourite scene in the series
4. Epic deaths: the body count outstrips all previous, apparently
5. The Shieldwall: The Dwarfs are down, but the Zhufbarak are most certainly not out...
6. The Wight and the Geld Prince: an unlikely fight that proves to be one of the most dramatic duels of them all
7. Reconciliation: the moment cousins set aside their hate brought a tear or two...
8. The Final battle: "best. battle. ever."

Assumptions: the Oak of Ages resurrects Tyrion; the Wight and the Geld Prince is a showdown between Krell and Sigvald. The Cousins are... who knows. Maybe it's all the elves, or just specific elves. Who can say!

First scenario is a "last charge" out from Averheim by the remaining Empire and Bretonnian forces, led by Karl Franz, Ludwig Schwarzhelm and Duke Jerrod. I think I read somewhere that Gelt shows up and saves the day.

Start date for the timeline is Spring 2528. The Siege of Averheim has been going for several months; the Skaven are yet to find a way through (but eventually the walls are indeed breached, leading the Emperor to make a last charge to kill Archaon/go out in a blaze of glory).

The Winds of Magic can indeed move around and find a "more suitable" host. This is apparently what happened to Caradryan. No idea what becomes of Ungrim yet.

Houghten

03-07-2015, 12:50 PM

Malekith - Incarnate of Shadow
Alarielle - Incarnate of Life
Karl Franz - Incarnate of Heavens
Grimgor - Incarnate of Beasts
Tyrion - Incarnate of Light
Caradryan - Incarnate of Fire
Balthasar Gelt - Incarnate of Metal

Not to mention Nagash - Incarnate of Death.

I initially thought we'd be getting a second set of rules for him post-binding Shyish to himself, but with Malekith, Alarielle and Gelt being Level 5 Wizards I think the rules we already have for him are his Incarnate rules, and the ones we're lacking are his weaker version.

Seems if you're a Wizard, getting a Wind bound to you bumps you up to level 5, and if you're not it gives you an Innate Bound spell.

Then again, I could be wrong. Arkhan's rules in the TK army book have him as a level 5 thanks to his possession of one of the Books of Nagash, and his rules in the Nagash book, when he no longer has said Book, have him as a level 4. Could Nagash, Incarnate of Death, possibly be a Level 6 Wizard?

I don't know. What I do know is it won't be in the Archaon book and I should probably shut up.

- - - Updated - - -

The Cousins are... who knows.

Tyrion and Malekith?

3. Incarnate of Beasts gives them their favourite scene in the series

If this means Grimgor headbutts Archaon, I will cry tears of joy.

Mr Mystery

03-07-2015, 01:04 PM

Wasn't sure Nagash was the Incarnate of Death, because he bound shyish to Sylvania.

But if he's described as such!

I am excite for this!

Cap'nSmurfs

03-07-2015, 01:40 PM

The rules we have for Nagash are already rules for him as Incarnate of Death. He's not getting more rules. He's a Level 5.

Theik

03-07-2015, 04:11 PM

Formation for the dwarf players (or people who like Gelt, I guess)

Gelt, incarnate of metal
Runelord
2x unit thunderer
1x unit irondrakes
1x unit of ironbreakers
2x cannon
1x organ gun
2x gyrocopter

All dwarves have +1 armor save and armor piercing as long as Gelt is alive.
Dwarf player rolls for each unit that can shoot in their first shooting phase, on a 5+ that unit can shoot twice that turn, on seperate targets if wanted.

Cause apparently dwarf gunlines weren't cheesy enough yet.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-07-2015, 04:38 PM

The Throng of Metal, that one's called.

Dwarfs haven't had anything cool from the End Times yet (except a bunch of their beloved characters die, lol), so I'll let them have a cool gunline formation.

It's the End Times. Over the top super-power cheese is the order of the day anyway!

Houghten

03-07-2015, 04:45 PM

They did get Ungrim, Incarnate of Fire, before Caradryan stole Aqshy (or, more likely, Teclis did it. That little god-murdering sneak has been behind half the events of the End Times so far).

Cap'nSmurfs

03-07-2015, 04:51 PM

That's true! Apologies, Dwarfs!

Mr Mystery

03-07-2015, 05:35 PM

White Tiger88

03-07-2015, 05:47 PM

Any info on the Everychosen army list info? :P

Mr Mystery

03-07-2015, 06:15 PM

As a general aside....

I'm liking the adoption of a Game of thrones approach to hero mortality of The End Times.

It is pleasing not to have Heroic Plot Armour!

Chronowraith

03-07-2015, 08:37 PM

As a general aside....

I'm liking the adoption of a Game of thrones approach to hero mortality of The End Times.

It is pleasing not to have Heroic Plot Armour!

That's the way old GW handled it too (before timelines were frozen and static). They'd give the rules for anyone and everyone but many times those characters lived at different periods throughout the history of the the Warhammer world. I too am glad to see it come back to that.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-07-2015, 10:55 PM

Apparently you didn't read the other thread, White Tiger:

For someone who keeps asking, it sounds like the Grand Legion of the Everchosen is this: Everything from the list in Glottkin, plus all Chaos the stuff in the Archaon book, plus Skaven. There might be some more in there, but until we know more, that's all we have to go on.

White Tiger88

03-07-2015, 11:45 PM

Apparently you didn't read the other thread, White Tiger:

Nope not at all good to know........Slaves LOTS OF SKAVEN SLAVES!

Erik Setzer

03-08-2015, 10:29 AM

That's the way old GW handled it too (before timelines were frozen and static). They'd give the rules for anyone and everyone but many times those characters lived at different periods throughout the history of the the Warhammer world. I too am glad to see it come back to that.

They'd also write "deaths" from battle reports into the fluff, especially in 40K. Captain Tycho's face being messed up by an Ork Weirdboy was an early 2nd edition batrep in WD where he was killed with an Ork psychic power (back when that could happen), and Commissar Yarrick's capture and escape from Golgotha was a Space Marine batrep in WD where Orks were fighting IG and Squats and right at the end of the game a unit of Warbuggies assaulted his tank and destroyed it.

I miss those days...

Cap'nSmurfs

03-08-2015, 11:53 AM

If those days were back, everyone would be complaining about characters changing from one month to the next and the "ever-shifting meta" and you know it. ;)

Oh, I forgot to mention: White Dwarf also has a Thanquol short story!

We catch up to our (anti) hero as he contemplates his new life on the Council of Thirteen. How is getting everything you ever wanted going? (Spoiler: not as well as he'd hoped).

Skreech shows up and tells Thanquol he's not to get involved in the last battle: this world is no longer safe, win or lose, and Skavenblight has to move to... somewhere else...

Dun dun dun!

Mr Mystery

03-08-2015, 12:47 PM

Ooooooh! Saucy!

Could Thanquol wind up as The Great Horned Rat of a new world?

Theik

03-08-2015, 01:23 PM

Not just the dwarves who get formation love, though!

Tyrion, Incarnate of Light
Imrik, Crown Prince of Caledor
2 High Elf Princes
1 unit of reiksguard
2 units of knightly orders
1 unit of demigryph knights
2 lothern skycutters
2 units of silver helms
1 unit of cold one knights

Earth-shaking Charge: Units in this formation get +d3 to their combat result for charging instead of +1.
Vengeance of Hysh: Units in this formation have Hatred vs demons and undead.

- - - Updated - - -

Also this formation, bit hard to make out in the photo but I think it says:
Caradryan, Incarnate of Fire
1 Anointed of Asuryan
3 units of pheonix guard
1 unit of white lions of chrace
1 unit of executioners
1 unit of eternal guard

Fires of Vengeance: As long as Caradryan is alive, all units in this formation have Devastating Charge and Flaming Attacks
Wake of Fire special rule is resolved at +1 strength.

- - - Updated - - -

If those days were back, everyone would be complaining about characters changing from one month to the next and the "ever-shifting meta" and you know it. ;)

Oh, I forgot to mention: White Dwarf also has a Thanquol short story!

We catch up to our (anti) hero as he contemplates his new life on the Council of Thirteen. How is getting everything you ever wanted going? (Spoiler: not as well as he'd hoped).

Skreech shows up and tells Thanquol he's not to get involved in the last battle: this world is no longer safe, win or lose, and Skavenblight has to move to... somewhere else...

Dun dun dun!

Bubblehammer time!
Leave it to the Skaven to blow up the entire ******* planet, I mean, they already did it to the moon.

Mr Mystery

03-08-2015, 01:39 PM

Still reckon Bubblehammer is a load of ****e.

Seems to have been based off a misunderstanding of the fate of the Lizardmen in Thanquol.

Not as if they're now extinct....

Cap'nSmurfs

03-08-2015, 01:45 PM

I agree, MM. I have no idea what's coming next. We might get to see at the end of Archaon. We might not!

I think every Incarnate has their own Formation.

Mr Mystery

03-08-2015, 02:14 PM

I remain intrigued that Archaon hasn't been billed as the final End Times volume...

Houghten

03-08-2015, 02:20 PM

You say that like there's going to be a final End Times volume.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/419/226/8ca.jpg

Mr Mystery

03-08-2015, 02:29 PM

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-08-2015, 03:59 PM

Quite true.

Trouble with rumours is that they've been increasingly polluted by utter bollocks these past couple of years.

They start out wild and contradictory. As release gets closer, the reliable rumour mongers give what info they have. The. The wild and contradictory rumours adapt, taking on some of the more reliable, less daft points, and so on. Then, as release approaches, they dry up.

Look at rumours for Archaon, and the kits coming. Mini-Lord of skulls? Egrimm/Archaon/Galrucch dragon kit?

Sudden silence from 'the little birds'

I only really take Harry and Hasting's rumours seriously, personally. The rest I take with a lot of soy sauce and just see as entertaining "what if" scenarios.

Perhaps there will be a 6th book between now and 9th edition to transition things more?

White Tiger88

03-08-2015, 06:07 PM

So if i am reading things right then the Legion of the everchosen has

-WoC
-DoC
-Skaven
-Beastmen

All in one army? Do we know what the limits are yet for squads.

Erik Setzer

03-08-2015, 08:05 PM

Trouble with rumours is that they've been increasingly polluted by utter bollocks these past couple of years.

Which still largely ties back to GW going ultra-double-supa-sekrit on everything, leaving people to try to guess at what might be coming... even their own employees, who are told to block off time for big releases but not told what they might be that much in advance, making it hard for them to plan release events (not just staying open late to make sales at midnight, but also stuff like tournaments, leagues, gaming days, whatever).

- - - Updated - - -

So if i am reading things right then the Legion of the everchosen has

-WoC
-DoC
-Skaven
-Beastmen

All in one army? Do we know what the limits are yet for squads.

Hmm. Suddenly I get the urge to take all the Plaguebearers I have and do a "Plague Army" with them as Core and Plague Monks as Special units for fun. But I should probably also toss in the Plague Furnace... which some day I suppose I should actually buy, because it's pretty useful for the nearly 200 Plague Monks I have.

Heck, just throwing out there a core of Chaos Warriors backed by Skaven shenanigan units and artillery could be seriously fun. Stormfiends acting as fire support for Warriors? Heck yeah!

I feel a little dirty inside thinking of some of those possibilities...

White Tiger88

03-08-2015, 09:46 PM

Which still largely ties back to GW going ultra-double-supa-sekrit on everything, leaving people to try to guess at what might be coming... even their own employees, who are told to block off time for big releases but not told what they might be that much in advance, making it hard for them to plan release events (not just staying open late to make sales at midnight, but also stuff like tournaments, leagues, gaming days, whatever).

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm. Suddenly I get the urge to take all the Plaguebearers I have and do a "Plague Army" with them as Core and Plague Monks as Special units for fun. But I should probably also toss in the Plague Furnace... which some day I suppose I should actually buy, because it's pretty useful for the nearly 200 Plague Monks I have.

Heck, just throwing out there a core of Chaos Warriors backed by Skaven shenanigan units and artillery could be seriously fun. Stormfiends acting as fire support for Warriors? Heck yeah!

I feel a little dirty inside thinking of some of those possibilities...

I was thinking 17 Tzeentch warriors + sorc as core... + some slaves as fodder, with skaven funtoys range nuking stuff lol

Mr Mystery

03-09-2015, 01:03 AM

Just a second....yet to see mention of Belakor....

Cap'nSmurfs

03-09-2015, 08:18 AM

He's in an alliance of him, Hellebron and Drycha. Some shenanigans afoot in Athel Loren.

He's also the Final Boss of Gotrek Gurnisson's life, it looks like. I'm sure Be'lakor's going to play a major role. There was a little feature on him in WD.

Balor

03-09-2015, 09:17 AM

So any word on Settra? Did they leave him in the desert and forgot about him? Did he show back up as a chaos dude? Did he get a cameo and then get nuked again because GW hates TK?

Mr Mystery

03-09-2015, 09:28 AM

Nothing since the end of Nagash......

There's an awful lot of unresolved threads at present - and the fact we've not heard much is a credit to how effective GW's shut down of the rumour mill has been - however you feel about that, it's doing it's job!

40kGamer

03-09-2015, 09:32 AM

All the unresolved threads point to an ongoing end times series which is pretty interesting.

Mr Mystery

03-09-2015, 09:57 AM

That's my thinking as well.

Whilst I'm sure we'll see an end to the book series, I think we're looking at a new, more dynamic setting for Warhammer.

And I'd be willing to put money on Archaon getting roflstomped in this book!

Cap'nSmurfs

03-09-2015, 10:19 AM

Either an ongoing End Times series or just the continuation of Warhammer, yeah.

I think Archaon will die, yes. He has nowhere else to go: he wins or he dies. His story is at its climax.

And yes, GW hates the Tomb Kings so much that they got about a third of the first End Times book devoted to them and inclusion in a new army list which sorts out most of their problems.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

03-09-2015, 12:24 PM

If they are going for a world-reset/change, I wouldn't be surprised to see Chaos/Archaon win. It would give the bad guys a bit more weight to them in the next setting.

Gridlock

03-09-2015, 01:21 PM

Yes it´s to bad that both Tomb Kings, Ogres, Breatonians, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Dwarfs seems to be getting the shaft/will no longer get an armybook of their own.

And really I think it´s the extremely LAZY, Yes Fantasy has a ****ton of races okay and lots of them are almost impossible to win with.
But instead of just saying right Dwarf, Ogres, Breatonians you are all getting smooched into a single army Called Empire.
Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves you are now just Elves.
Tomb King, Vampire Counts you are just undead now.

I think it would be better saying okay how can we distinguish these armies from one another, how can we make their play style different enough so that each army has it´s own play style?

Tomb kings vs Vampire Counts.

Vampire Counts is a (in my mind) about the mindless hordes and hordes of skeletons zombies and such walking chaff units flanked by a few high ranking units that can raise more.

Tomb Kings should be more highly specialized units and pre-planning plus keeping your forces alive through magic, for once they are gone they are GONE.

In a sense if you have a units of 20 ghouls in close combat against a group of 20 tomb king warriors.
Once the Gouls are all beaten the Vampire count could try and resurrect some of them.
However once the last of those Tomb king warriors are dead they are gone for good.
It could be explained that the Lichpriest will need a template to work his magic off and unlike the skeletons the Vampire´s are able to resurrect, the warriors of the tomb king still retain some of their memories enough so that the Lichpriest can use it to resurrect the fallen warriors.

Same with all the rest of the units the Lichpriest is able to heal them through magic but once they are gone they are gone.

Further more you could make it so that the Vampire counts have no warmachines of any kind and no template weapons either.
Where as the tomb kings still holds some and have one or two template weapons.
Also where as the Tomb King have units that are able to come in anywhere on the table, the vampire counts doesn´t.

Small stuff like that would make a Tomb King army a very different beast to play compared to Vampire Counts while at the same time mirroring that they once came from the same people.

Same with Breatonians vs Empire

Empire has access to warmachines, guns and mages that are able to cast offensive spells, on the flip side they only have one unit of knights.
Breatonians on the other hand have no warmachines, or guns and their mages (can´t remember what those women where called) can only cast supportive spell.

However on the flip side they have knight up the vahzu and their units (though slightly more expensive then Empire) has the ability to use their first turn to pray to the lady and get a significant boost in their stats.
And all though they only have bow and arrow as their troops they are able to more or less British longbows and a lot more precise then Empire guns, though not as powerful.

Once again they would be a very different army to play compared to Empire.

That is what i think could be the solution.

Mr Mystery

03-09-2015, 01:45 PM

Dude. Clearly bollocks rumours remain clearly bollocks.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-09-2015, 01:46 PM

We don't know that any armies are being discontinued or combined. Calm down.

Wildeybeast

03-09-2015, 02:21 PM

On the point of End Times continuing, both May's Battle Brothers and June's Throne of Skulls tournaments are being billed as 'End Times' events. GW clearly intends to keep it going past the release of this book. Whether that means this is the last End Times book, or End Times will carry on into 9th (assuming that lands this summer) is anyone's guess.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-09-2015, 03:13 PM

I thought I've had, and maybe I'm mad: What if The End Times is Warhammer 9th Edition?

At the very least, I'd expect End Times to stick around as the Warhammer equivalent of Apocalypse. Or something. Who knows!

Bigred

03-09-2015, 04:13 PM

It looks like we get one last miniature as part of the End Times Archaon release.

via El Taller De Yila (http://eltallerdeyila.blogspot.com.es/2015/03/skarr-bloodwrath-nuevo-senor-del-caos.html#)3-9-2014

13069

Meet Skarr Bloodwrath:

M4 WS8 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I7 A5 Ld8

He's like a blood-fueled St. Celestine!

Mr Mystery

03-09-2015, 04:21 PM

Interesting!

Cap'nSmurfs

03-10-2015, 06:46 PM

The Black Library preview is up.

Artwork:

Archaon leading his army (already seen);

Krell and Sigvald dueling (gosh, Krell is huge!);

Mannfred von Carstein in Athel Loren (I assume);

Some battle photographs too:

Nagash facing off against a bloodthirster;

The Emperor and a lightning backdrop;

Big two-page spread: a black sun looms in the background as a Khornate army and Archaon with multiple Bloodthirsters faces off against Grimgor & Black Orcs, Tyrion and the Emperor accompanied by elven and human knights (with Zombies in the background), Alarielle and Malekith with some Sisters of the Thorn behind them, and right at the back, almost silhouetted, Teclis.

Looks properly ****ing epic, this.

Mr Mystery

03-11-2015, 01:14 AM

And now I have a decision to make....

Not work Saturday, and pick up Archaon when local store opens.

Work Saturday, earn £210, and nab Archaon later.

Hard decision is hard!

fedratsailor

03-11-2015, 03:08 AM

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405465-End-Times-Archaon-Roundup-Discussion/page41

Rules for Caradryan, Tyrion, and Isabella Post #809

Mr Mystery

03-11-2015, 05:40 AM

Ooooooooh!

Wonder how Papa Nurgle got his mitts on Isabella?

Vlad's gonna freak, man! FREAK.

Mark O'Mealey

03-11-2015, 06:47 AM

It's all going away. The Warhammer world as we know it no longer exists after End Times. Can't believe no one else has spoiled this yet.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746620-WHFB-Anyone-following-the-End-Times

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-11-2015, 10:30 AM

looks like it IS the final end times book.

Huge spoiler here :
http://descansodelescriba.blogspot.co.at/2015/03/the-endspoiler-de-el-fin-de-los-tiempos.html

Erik Setzer

03-11-2015, 11:15 AM

They... they blew it up. They really blew it all up. (Well, figuratively.) Everything. There are no "survivors" to something like that. I mean, sure, I need to read the rest of the book, I suppose, but that passage kind of leaves no question as to what happens. Chaos not only wins, but it destroys the entire world, and even snuffs out the ability to rebuild it. Maybe that's Teclis floating in the void, catching onto something he created that would allow a new world to be rebuilt.

For there to be survivors, they'd have to have gone elsewhere. We already know the Lizardmen took off with a lot of their folks in ships, and Skavenblight was supposedly being moved to another world. No idea with the rest of the people involved. That description doesn't leave room for "Bubblehammer." That's the entire world being utterly wiped out, every bit of it.

The thing that really bothers me, reading that, is that it feels like Warhammer is gone. Sure, maybe we get "Warhammer 9th Edition." But it's not going to be a changed world map. It's not going to be anything we recognize. There's no way you can have armies of ranked soldiers facing off against each other, since whatever survivors were left would be scattered to the stars and it wouldn't make sense for them to have the ability to find each other to face off in combat but still be limited to ancient warfare tactics.

I have no idea what this all means. It's a lot to take in...

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-11-2015, 12:12 PM

Lexington

03-11-2015, 08:46 PM

From the Warseers (http://http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405465-End-Times-Archaon-Roundup-Discussion/page60):

Here's a short summary of what I gathered from a quick leaf-through:
- Pretty much anything of interest happens in Middenheim, including a ritual to end the world
- Caradryan is the Incarnate of Aqshy
- Grimgor decapitated by Archaon pretty much as an aside, after fighting scores of greater deamons on his own
- Archaon and Karl Franz clash twice, to little effect
- Dwarfs beliefe Balthasar Gelt to be Grungi reborn, are wiped out
- Sigvald kills Krell, gets killed by Thogg instantly afterwards
- Arkhan is sacrificed to cover a retreat
- Alarialle mind***** Hellebron, then guts her like a fish
- Isabella becomes a servant of Nurgle, is killed by Vlad, who also dies in the attack
-Durthu sacrifices himself to rezz the Alarielle, who keeps *********** dying
- Balthasar Gelt dies to Mannfred, but was revealed as pretty much the most noble guy around
- Ka'Banda kills Caradryan and goes around kicking everybodies **** in for pages on end, killed by Sigmar himself
- the Wind of Heavens is revealed to be the will of Sigmar Heldenhammer, KF becomes Sigmar in full
- Teclis keeps absorbing the Winds of the Incarnates as those die, overloads and explodes
- Grimgor's Immortulz lead the final charge on Chaos
- Sigmar punches the Slayer of Kings apart
- Rituals goes through anyway, magic goes away, Nagash just fades away
- Mannfred dies like a ***** to Tyrion
- Sigmar and Archaon wrastle a bit, stumble into the ritual-created chaos rift like dummies
- EVERYBODY left suffers from 'Rocks Fall, Everybody dies'-syndrome, but Malekith gets away with crushed legs, Tyrion SOMEHOW is unharmed and Alarielle dies AGAIN and rezzes AGAIN

As the Achewoods (http://http://achewood.com/index.php?date=04032006) say, "The end! No moral."

Erik Setzer

03-11-2015, 09:05 PM

So the Dwarfs all die, all the Chaos die, Grimgor (despite the ignoble ending for him to thumb their nose at those of us who remembered his original beatdown of Archaon) and his lads do the serious smashing of Chaos, Undead die (again), humans all die, Orcs all die, everyone dies except the bloody Elves.

#BecauseElves

And then the entire world dies anyway, as a last giant "screw you" to the Elves.

But seriously, Teclis sets up all these shenanigans and all these plots and all, and he just up and explodes because he can't handle all the magic? W...T...F?!?

Also, we get heroes like Sigmar walking the planet again, and Nagash comes back, and they form the Justice League of the Old World, and STILL can't stop the whole world being destroyed? In the end, all that work was for nothing? All the hope in the world means nothing? All the heroics were pointless?

Pretty much the whole poem could apply to this situation, but I'll just go with the (famous) last four lines of The Hollow Men by T.S. Eliot:

"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper."

daboarder

03-11-2015, 09:29 PM

What the actual ****

Solution9

03-11-2015, 09:31 PM

13078

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

03-11-2015, 09:50 PM

Locke66

03-11-2015, 09:52 PM

Also, we get heroes like Sigmar walking the planet again, and Nagash comes back, and they form the Justice League of the Old World, and STILL can't stop the whole world being destroyed? In the end, all that work was for nothing? All the hope in the world means nothing? All the heroics were pointless?

It doesn't feel great does it. I was expecting some sort of last ditch evacuation to another planet or something through "not the webway" to set up a new lore not a total wiping of the slate clean. It truly does seem to be the end of Warhammer in it's current form root and branch.

RIP 1983-2015
"Waaaagghh"

I can only imagine they are planning to do complete new franchise of fantasy tabletop under the Warhammer name. Probably a skirmish style system with less models on the table closer to Warhammer 40k.

Lexington

03-11-2015, 10:17 PM

What the actual ****
Right? I kinda feel bad for the guy who just bought my Skaven.

...not bad enough for refunds, tho. :D

maggiras

03-12-2015, 12:25 AM

WoW s... really escalated quickly..
I'm thinking for a new start in 9th, that the Chaos Gods gets bored and pick a new planet to start this shenanigans all over again , trying to puppeteer their way through again .. and have lots of fun

somehow "glowing floating light teclis thingy" and lizards find those planet to (eldar help needed :P) and form the nations anew to start resistance and prevent the future

eldargal

03-12-2015, 12:48 AM

Cap'nSmurfs

03-12-2015, 01:14 AM

I like the ending. (What I've seen of it, anyway.)

Anything less than the apocalypse would've been a cop-out.

Lileath actually gives the last of her power to Teclis, in order to transport the armies of the Incarnates to Middenheim for the final battle.

Their plan almost works. Almost.

So long, Old World! You were lovely, and we'll always have the memories (and the End Times).

Looking forward to what's next, whatever it is!

Path Walker

03-12-2015, 01:15 AM

I mean, it's the time of ending, what else did people expect?!

Cap'nSmurfs

03-12-2015, 01:19 AM

Anything else would've been deus ex machina nonsense, yeah. Grimgor headbutts Archaon and everyone goes home for tea and medals!? Puh-leaze.

I love, by the way, the way that ET has made clear the interlinked, cyclical nature of the Warhammer universes. There've always been hints here and there (and it changed with different writers and eras); now it's effectively explicit. What was will be again. Will always be. There's an angle here where the Fall of the Eldar in 40k reflects how long it took Chaos to grow in the 40k universe - Slaanesh only manifested when there were mature, space-faring civilizations. The Old World didn't make it past Black Powder. And there were others before them, as there will be others after.

Who are the Old Ones? Who are the Gods? Echoes of those who came before in the cycle?

Anyway, I think it's neat.

As to good ol' Neferata: haven't seen anything, but personally, her story arc is effectively "over" after her escape from Lahmia. She went back to the place which haunted her; it's a decrepit wasteland and the glory days are gone forever. She goes through a trauma and emerges, once more, the queen. That's her arc.

If she dies stupidly I'll be annoyed, but her story is effectively complete.

Khalida's on the other hand...

(I hear there's a lot left hanging.)

Houghten

03-12-2015, 02:50 AM

But seriously, Teclis sets up all these shenanigans and all these plots and all, and he just up and explodes because he can't handle all the magic? W...T...F?!?

"My plans will not be undone by such amateur-hour horse**** as absorbing too much power and exploding. I am Teclis. My will be done."
...
*BA-THOOM*

eldargal

03-12-2015, 03:19 AM

I'm very excited to see what happens next. It's a new beginning after all, it says so and GW aren't going to drop WFB. Perhaps a new world where old characters sometimes fall out of rifts to provide a bit of continuity?

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 03:22 AM

Who knows?

Seems whatever whoever has their hands on wot does the as yet undefined miracle is part of the Warhammer World - could be imprinted, like the Pandorica in Doctor Who - which was also ace.

Trojan66

03-12-2015, 04:47 AM

its cool that you guys are up on what's coming but you need to remember. Few things. The new warhammer is a very different beast. It does not play anything like 8 so don't be thinking of how you can use blocks of woc supported by skaven war machines etc...the game don't play that way no more. It's all individual figures on round bases in loose formations with the most basic set of rules since snap !
I am not selling rumours...it's a fact.
For those of us who have built massive painted armies with back stories and all, it's a massive sell out.

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 04:53 AM

Define fact, and present evidence.

eldargal

03-12-2015, 04:55 AM

Focusing more on the lore at the moment, don't care so much for the rules mechanics at this point. Hopefully there will be mechanisms in place to scale it from small scale skirmish to larger battles, they would be insane to not allow large battles after all, more sales for them. I don't mind my army backgrounds being invalidated either, can write new ones and change them with how things develop going forward. My main concern is that GW actually shake things up with more female characters and so forth.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

03-12-2015, 04:56 AM

I have 5000 points of the united hordes of Chaos (sans le Skaven), and to me, this presents a wonderful opportunity to change the army up a bit. Even if it goes to round bases, so what? Just chop of the old ones and replace them. If you truly love your army you won't let a simple base change ruin that.

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 05:18 AM

Reasons to believe it's all going roundbased skirmish - Some Rumours, no firm statement either way from the most reliable rumour mongers, single picture of Skaven stuff, seemingly taken from a WD which doesn't show up in WD in that manner, and some say was photoshopped anyway

Reasons to doubt it's all going roundbased skirmish - MASSIVE KITS being released for The End Times. And lots of them. To date, and we're getting close -no sign at all of Warhammer kits being packed with round bases, only ever square ones (barring the Bloodthirster, who of course has both given it's in both games). This includes aforementioned MASSIVE KITS released for The End Times.

40kGamer

03-12-2015, 05:25 AM

I'm still on the square base train until GW proves otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

Focusing more on the lore at the moment, don't care so much for the rules mechanics at this point. Hopefully there will be mechanisms in place to scale it from small scale skirmish to larger battles, they would be insane to not allow large battles after all, more sales for them. I don't mind my army backgrounds being invalidated either, can write new ones and change them with how things develop going forward. My main concern is that GW actually shake things up with more female characters and so forth.

Although I would love to see this, it is honestly asking a lot for the rules design to be playable at an extreme range of scales. 40k did it best by adding several army restrictions with the old, old combat patrol rules way back in 4th (I think). We still use those restrictions to play combat patrols in 7th... not sure why GW took that page out of the book... it still works.

eldargal

03-12-2015, 05:43 AM

Eldyra is 100% alive at the end so yay.

Trojan66

03-12-2015, 06:02 AM

Define fact, and present evidence.

Fact- it's being played and tested and has gone too far to turn back now...offcourse I can't post evidence without jepodising get my position. Just wait and see but I have been prompted to post because I think we should know the direction our hobby is going in and be prepared for a brave new world. It's warhammer Jim...but not as we know it ! No more posts from me but please refer back in August.

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 06:17 AM

Uh huh.

Still far from convinced.

Possible skirmish addition using rules lifted from the rather superb LOTR/Hobbit rules set? Very possible.

Scrapping decades of work entirely? Nah.

Also - being playtested...given you've said August, and the general lead times on page setting and printing, any play testing would have concluded by now....

eldargal

03-12-2015, 06:22 AM

Yup, even if larger battle rules come in another book later I can't imagine they will be dumped completely. Yes you want simple wasy to fun games that let you field a small number of kits to start playing, but you also want them to have an incentive to keep buying more and more.

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 06:26 AM

Or if not an incentive, at least no barrier.

X-Wing, Warmahordes et al have a very distinct ceiling at which the games become more about the book keeping than the dice rolling. Warhammer as is doesn't - it scales really nicely upwards.

It's just the smaller scale (say, Batallion sized box and you're good to go) that it stumbles on. The game can still very much be played - but you don't get the appeal of the larger scaled games.

Erik Setzer

03-12-2015, 07:47 AM

All the villainy was for something, though! It's a wargame, so one side's plans are going to fail. I really like the fact that Games Workshop had the balls to actually carry out the doomsday. It'll make Chaos in WHFB 9th seem like more of a threat.

Actually... no. The villainy wasn't for anything. Maybe the Skaven got something out of it by getting off-world with some kind of new power. But the Dark Elves had to go good, the Undead had to go good, and all of Archaon and his forces did... nothing, really. Especially when it's worded to suggest that it could end no other way. It didn't matter what anyone did. The Chaos gods would always destroy the world. So what's the point of all the villainy even?

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 07:50 AM

Dark Elves and Undead did what they've always done - look out entirely for Number One.

In this instance, that involved a stand against Chaos.

And hey, lets read the rest of the book, and not just the final passage which lacks some context?

I've read the final bit - now I want to know the rest.

Erik Setzer

03-12-2015, 07:51 AM

Not as bad as I was expecting honestly. No mention of Neferata though.

Edit: Urgh, apparently Lileath sacrificed herself to help Tyrion, who fails. So much for setting her up as saving bits of the world in bubbles. Thanks GW for treating another female character like she's a ****ing power up for a male character.

Um... First off, you really thought she was going to create Outland? Kroak pretty much did that for some Lizardmen, that's where the rumors came from.

At the end of Khaine, she opened a dimension to a pocket realm where her daughter went, with Araloth watching over their daughter, and that girl was supposed to be the key to creating life on a remade world. Lileath, of course, would just die with this world. *That* was the plan with her, not Outland. But it does sound like they took even that bit of hope and threw it out the window. (Or perhaps just forgot it, which would be unforgivable.)

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 08:01 AM

I'm reading Kroak's actions really quite differently.

Rather than create pocket dimensions, Froggy McToadington instead threw up shields around Lizardmen Cities, protecting those that remained. Most of the Slaan and their Skink Attendants were 'safe' in their ships by that point?

Erik Setzer

03-12-2015, 08:08 AM

Reasons to doubt it's all going roundbased skirmish - MASSIVE KITS being released for The End Times. And lots of them. To date, and we're getting close -no sign at all of Warhammer kits being packed with round bases, only ever square ones (barring the Bloodthirster, who of course has both given it's in both games). This includes aforementioned MASSIVE KITS released for The End Times.

Heck, I want to throw in my hat for crazy rumor madness again:

What if this is a way to snuff out all the stuff from typical fantasy and history, and just make 40K-compatible versions of Skaven and Lizardmen? Sure, yeah, we need to read the rest of the book to see who makes it, if anyone. But we know the Slann went back to the stars, and the Skaven were looking to move Skavenblight off-world. You could change up the Lizardmen line, and all the new Skaven releases had a 40K-style aesthetic to them anyway (and the Stormfiends were not made to rank up). Chaos is Chaos anywhere, so their champions and warriors could carry on the fight across the cosmos. "What about all the other kits, especially for End Times?" Well, when you have a company talking up the idea of selling models to collectors, why not take these impressive models and just release them in a special line? Heck, they already have different boxes and blisters, so you could set them up in a store markedly separate from any other game releases. Makes sense to the company because it eliminates all the stuff they can't control IP for that well, lets them ditch all the production work on WFB and focus more on their hotter-selling game, and they get a start on selling dedicated collector models.

That one's probably not going to happen. But hey, it's a possibility that makes sense with what we've seen.

One argument *for* round bases would be the posing of a lot of the newer models. The Stormfiends needed larger bases and still don't rank up, but that's not an issue with round bases. The Blightkings and Khorne Clown Brigade need 40mm bases, which throws people off in WFB because they're not Monstrous Infantry, but on round bases like 40K that doesn't seem so odd (or they could shift to 32mm).

All just speculation. But speculation is fun!

- - - Updated - - -

I'm reading Kroak's actions really quite differently.

Rather than create pocket dimensions, Froggy McToadington instead threw up shields around Lizardmen Cities, protecting those that remained. Most of the Slaan and their Skink Attendants were 'safe' in their ships by that point?

It describes the areas he projected fields around as lifting up from the ground and floating through the cataclysm into the heavens.

I wasn't trying to call them "pocket dimensions," they were protected bubbles of earth that got sent out to the stars... somehow. Doesn't say what happened to them other than that.

What Lileath sent her daughter and Araloth into *was* a "pocket dimension" of sorts, though.

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 08:22 AM

Will re-read that.

I don't recall them floating off anywhere?

But yeah, Lileath bit is spot on.

Erik Setzer

03-12-2015, 09:48 AM

I pulled my book out to double-check.

I think that's where the Bubblehammer rumor might have originated.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-12-2015, 10:42 AM

The protective force domes are sent "up and beyond the horizon of the world". That's the text, make of it what you will. And yes, I wonder if that's where the bubbles thing comes from.

Anggul

03-12-2015, 11:17 AM

Solution9

03-12-2015, 11:49 AM

To me it just seems the Chaos Gods just sit and play games with worlds. See who wins. When one game ends they play another.

13084

Anggul

03-12-2015, 11:51 AM

To me it just seems the Chaos Gods just sit and play games with worlds. See who wins. When one game ends they play another.

13084

Yup, it just shows that even all of the dramatic events of the Old World are just little bits of amusement to the Chaos Gods, and when they're done they look for a new place to amuse them.

Vlad78

03-12-2015, 03:17 PM

Cool.

There is a point to it, despite the complaints that 'all of it was for nothing, the world ended anyway'.

That's exactly the point. The point is that no matter how hard they all strove, chaos is inevitable and eventually entropy always wins out. Not until everything is dead will chaos cease to be.

It's a really depressing ending, but in a cool way and it takes serious balls due to the inevitable complaints.

The truly bizarre thing is people acting like they have to sell up their armies because they can never play them again. Rules are rules for playing a game, just mechanics. You choose which setting you're playing in. Nothing is stopping anyone from playing the pre-end times setting. Even if 9th is really different (which I doubt considering a lot of units are still pretty recent) you could just continue playing 8th for pre-end times.

Serious balls? are you kidding?

Serious balls is needed when you're doing something which takes guts, not total stupidity. Base jump takes balls, shooting yourself in the head with a gun doesn't.

30 years of background thrown out of the window because GW lacked creativity and skills to nurture it and make it evolve in a positive way and now they just kill it out of laziness and you speak of balls?

Yes people could keep playing with their armies but GW support will not last. And very soon you'll be in trouble when trying to find someone to play with because the game's dead. It has already begun.

And something else, chaos victory may have been inevitable, the purpose of the game was to delay it heroically. See call of Cthuhu to understand what I mean.

Mr Mystery

03-12-2015, 03:56 PM

And I would suggest we all hush our collective gums until we actually see and experience what comes next.

Any smart arsed bellend can make smart arsed bellend comments based off obviously made up rumours.

Jared van Kell

03-12-2015, 03:57 PM

Yup, it just shows that even all of the dramatic events of the Old World are just little bits of amusement to the Chaos Gods, and when they're done they look for a new place to amuse them.

Pretty much. Eternity is a long time and when you are a deity ultimately removed from all mortal concerns, the concerns of mortals are ultimately irrelevant.

JvK :cool:

Anggul

03-12-2015, 04:27 PM

Serious balls? are you kidding?

Serious balls is needed when you're doing something which takes guts, not total stupidity. Base jump takes balls, shooting yourself in the head with a gun doesn't.

30 years of background thrown out of the window because GW lacked creativity and skills to nurture it and make it evolve in a positive way and now they just kill it out of laziness and you speak of balls?

Yes people could keep playing with their armies but GW support will not last. And very soon you'll be in trouble when trying to find someone to play with because the game's dead. It has already begun.

And something else, chaos victory may have been inevitable, the purpose of the game was to delay it heroically. See call of Cthuhu to understand what I mean.

It hasn't been thrown out of the window. It's all still there, it isn't being rounded up and burned. It's your choice whether you want to continue using it or not.

I sincerely doubt they're going to suddenly stop producing the armies, especially when they've made so many new models recently. As an example, they didn't overhaul a large proportion of the Dark Elf range to then just stop making it. People are just making wild and over-the-top assumptions based on a small piece of information.

Mr Mystery

03-13-2015, 06:28 AM

On a very ropey, very small piece of information.

One of the most reliable rumour mongers, Harry, has said it's his understanding that whilst yes, a round based version of the game has apparently been toyed with, the current rules set isn't going anywhere.

He hasn't been emphatic about stuff. Others have, but decline to name sources for their info. We're just told to trust them.

Now, granted all the reliable rumour mongers started off with that sort of approach, their own accuracy cementing their reputation as time progressed.

But when someone claims to have info Harry doesn't? Yeah. Salty.

40kGamer

03-13-2015, 07:58 AM

It hasn't been thrown out of the window. It's all still there, it isn't being rounded up and burned. It's your choice whether you want to continue using it or not.

I sincerely doubt they're going to suddenly stop producing the armies, especially when they've made so many new models recently. As an example, they didn't overhaul a large proportion of the Dark Elf range to then just stop making it. People are just making wild and over-the-top assumptions based on a small piece of information.

Does anyone know why so many think a game that is changed or not currently supported is dead? Are we ONLY supposed to be playing what is current and hip? If that's the case I really missed the boat! I still bust out Adeptus Titanicus on occassion although it has been 'dead' for over 2 decades. I also didn't melt all of my Warmaster figs down for scrap when GW decided they were no longer profitable either. Now I'm afraid I may receive a visit from the Game police to have all of my old toys confiscated and destroyed. :p

Mr Mystery

03-13-2015, 08:01 AM

Hey folks.

Given this is a thread meant to discuss the happenings in Archaon, discussion about what GW did isn't really suited.

I've started a thread in Warhammer General about the future.

40kGamer

03-13-2015, 08:28 AM

Hey folks.

Given this is a thread meant to discuss the happenings in Archaon, discussion about what GW did isn't really suited.

I've started a thread in Warhammer General about the future.

Thanks mate! Personally I'm quite intrigued with the direction they took with Archaon. It's the WFB equivalent of a franchise reboot. After basically ignoring WFB for the last 15 years I am now quite interested to see where they take things and excited about the product line again.

Mr Mystery

03-13-2015, 09:16 AM

I'm all stoked for tomorrow - though still not stoked enough not to go to work first. Because munneh.

Really intrigued to see how it all happens, and whether Archaon is given a righteous smiting or ten.

And a final word on the fyootcha from me (on this thread) - End Times has been pretty top notch background wise from it's outset - this bodes well for...erm....Beginning Times, or whatever they call it.

Actually, wouldn't mind a similar series setting out the new status quo, whatever it turns out to be.

eldargal

03-13-2015, 09:19 AM

I've been a bit disappointed with End Times honestly, but I'm much more excited for New Times. I just hope GW don't screw them up.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-13-2015, 09:25 AM

By the by: according to the novelization (apparently, I don't have it yet - I'm getting this from the thread on Warseer) - Vlad saves Isabella by sacrificing himself. He gives her the ring and stakes them both, freeing her from the Daemon.

The epilogue is all about Isabella plus Arkhan, Neferata and Khalida trying to save themselves and Sylvania. All three move their relationship status to It's Complicated. Arkhan believes there's a chance of maintaining order in the Chaos of the warp.

Apparently there's also stuff about who Vlad and Mannfred really are (ancient vampires - I think Vlad is one of (or the first of) Neferata's husbands?

Vlad plays a blinder throughout, killing daemons (and a bloodthirster!) left and right and generally being the urbane aristocrat supervillain we all know and love. He even tells Mannfred that (although he's an idiot) he doesn't want to see him come to harm. Vlad's the Mortarch of My Heart!

Settra forsakes Chaos, saves Nagash, informs the Supreme Lord of the Undeath that he'll be back later to demand his allegiance as is his right, after all this fightin' is done.

Oh and stuff about how the Bretonnians go out with a bang, fighting nobly to the end of the world.

I think this might be THE novel to pick up, anyway; sounds like there's a lot of fistpump moments for favourite characters. And a lot of stuff which adds some more intrigue about what's going to follow.

I also hope that the new start - whatever it is - rights some of the background problems of the old Warhammer. It'd be nice to see more diversity generally with more warrior-women and people of different ethnic backgrounds, not just two races of white-skinned European humans and the white-skinned elves and the occasional witch. It also gives them more of an opportunity to put a more personal stamp on it generally rather than just doing "it's not Tolkien, honest! Don't look at The Necromancer!". We'll see how it goes, but these are exciting times.

---

Oh! Last thing before I forget. The Emperor is Sigmar. Has been since Karl Franz was killed by the Glottkin. Sigmar is real, much to Archaon's dismay: he's a wise and patient god, who invested Valten with a little of his energy and plunged the rest into the body of his dying Emperor in Altdorf.

eldargal

03-13-2015, 09:49 AM

Nice, sounds like it ends before the final end though so still a chance for Neferata and Khalida to die stupidly.><

Path Walker

03-13-2015, 09:50 AM

I hope Archaon gets a kicking from Grimgor again.

eldargal

03-13-2015, 10:01 AM

Vlad does indeed star in this novel. He saves important people, inspires the Bretonnians to find Gilles and Abhorash (leaving a message for Abhorsash "Tell him he was right in the end."), kills countless daemons (and if I correctly recall a Bloodthirster) and saves Isabella by putting the ring on her finger and performing a double-suicide. This removes the demon within her.

Abhorash is off screen, repaying his debt to Gilles and Bretonnia. Vlad comments to himself (about Abhorash); "What warriors you could have made these men (Bretonnians), had you not sworn that damn Oath."

Settra saves Nagash. He does so after it looks like he's joined Chaos. Settra informs Nagash that he will accept his fealty after he destroys the Chaos Gods. These pathetic Chaos Gods think to rule Settra? SETTRA RULES. Nagash later dies after Teclis blows up and the winds are sucked into the Warp Rift. He is the last Incarnate to lose his wind; showing great resistance but eventually crumbling to dust.

Arkhan has been affected by Aliathra's touch. He can see the future to some extent. He sees the man amidst the void saving everything. He says to Neferata that they will be barely a memory amidst lost and legendary history. He kisses her on the hand, and asks her to go to Sylvania and "lead our people to safety", imparting a method of escape. Neferata kindly takes grieving Isabella (very motherly) and flies back to Sylvania to meet her "greatest rival and best friend", Khalida. Arkhan is last seen talking to Nef earlier on. Nagash did at one point say to Arkhan; "DIE WELL, MY SERVANT" when he saw him last. It was an oddly nice moment, despite the word choice.

They have undead, human (from Sylvania and Averland) and halfling refugees all hiding in Castle Sternieste. Nef arrives just in time for the warp to strike. Khalida and Nef share friendly words, accepting that they were too late to enact Arkhan's plan and that their rivalry is meaningless now. We do not see them die; instead we just see Skeletons bracing shields against the incoming energy. It is written as though this is a moment of futility.

Mannfred goes bat**** and decides he'll kill Nagash with the warp rift and 'rule the world of anarchy if he cannot rule the world of order'. Vlad earlier said he preferred Konrad; at least he had some backbone. Vlad later said he didn't want Mannfred to die as he loved him like a son, flawed or not. Either way - damn it, Mannfred."
I'm happy.

White Tiger88

03-13-2015, 10:15 AM

I'm happy.

What the hell happens to Archaon then O.o

Also NOOOO NOT VLAD!!!!! :(

eldargal

03-13-2015, 10:46 AM

Deadlift

03-13-2015, 11:00 AM

Be interesting to see what 9th ed brings in a new box set.

Anggul

03-13-2015, 11:49 AM

Urgh now someone is saying Eldyra asked Tyrion to kill her and he did, for ****s sake GW. Worst ****ing trope, female character written with so little agency she can't even end her own damned life and has to get a male to do it for her.

Really hope they do better than this going forward. At least Neferata got to be the valiant hero rushing to save the day even if she ended up probably failing.

It might be something to do with her being the new Ereth Khial. Perhaps she can't kill herself, but the wind of light can. It is the anti-daemon-and-undead wind after all. Kind of like the Eldar legend in which Morai Heg can't cut herself so she gets Khaine to do it because he is able to harm gods. Just a theory, I guess we'll see.

It's the same for everyone, seems they pretty much all die in the end, but it sounds like they have some epic moments before and during the finale. I like it, it seems to be shaping up to be a glorious last battle, all culminating in the destruction of everything.

Erik Setzer

03-13-2015, 12:20 PM

Urgh now someone is saying Eldyra asked Tyrion to kill her and he did, for ****s sake GW. Worst ****ing trope, female character written with so little agency she can't even end her own damned life and has to get a male to do it for her.

I think you're letting your "feminism" skew how you're viewing that. It's not any kind of "weak woman" trope, we've seen that same thing done number times in various types of fiction with male characters. It's a gender-neutral lazy trope.

Be more happy that it was down to the three leading ladies of Undeath to try to save a bunch of people, less unhappy that the character they chose for a silly trope happened to be a woman instead of a man for once. (Also, there might be a darn good reason she couldn't kill herself that has nothing to do with gender, which makes railing against GW's anti-women attitude in that bit of story come off even more hollow.)

Cap'nSmurfs

03-13-2015, 12:26 PM

Well, until I've read the text itself I'm not going to comment on Eldyra/Tyrion. How would that work, anyway? She's been turned into a mighty Goddess of the Dead in Lileath's contingency. Did Tyrion happen by for a cup of interplanar sugar or something?

So let's wait and see.

I don't think EG's take on it is being "skewed"; yeah, it happens to men too, but in a different way, and with different connotations. It's not gender-neutral either; I can think off the top of my head of a bunch of characters this happens to which put power over life and death in the hands of a man of violence and justify it with a female request (at least three characters in the Metal Gear Solid series alone!). Agency is the key word.

Erik Setzer

03-13-2015, 01:49 PM

I can't think off the top of my head of a female character asking a male character to kill her. I can think of plenty of male characters asking other characters to kill them. Often because they're put in some pitiful position where they're whining about how they're suffering.

So, yeah, the trope has nothing to do with women, so can we just not clutter up this topic going down that line? It's rather annoying.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-13-2015, 03:07 PM

Anyway. The novel's account of Eldyra's fate is directly contradicted by End Times: Khaine. I'm going with the rulebook on this.

Not the first time it's happened; Glottkin novel was also full of strange disparities. A natural result of creative processes and the secrecy of the studio, I'm sure.

fedratsailor

03-13-2015, 03:15 PM

Why is Eldyra in the book? Wasn't she turned into a goddess?
Ah. I've been waiting on this one. Eldyra's presence in The Lord of the End Times is what we, in the biz, like to call a '***** up.' Mostly on my part, I think.
See, what happened was, I included her in the book because I thought her final fate hadn't been covered by anyone else, and I thought it wasn't exactly fair to turn her into a vampire in the first book and then never mention her again. Too, the fifth ET book was pretty light on female characters. So, I put her in, and decided to give her and Tyrion a last moment for some (probably unnecessary) pathos. Just to twist the knife a bit before the end.
What I didn't *know* at the time, was that she'd been turned into a goddess in ET: Khaine. I didn't find that out until after this book was already at the printers. By the time I learned about it, it was too late to hack those bits out.
Frankly, it was my fault for not triple-checking. Just like leaving out Alith Anar and Skarsnik. It's filed under 'Things I Could Have Done Better If I'd Had The Time'.
That said, you can always make the case that she's not really Eldyra, but rather what's left of Eldyra after Lileath snatches her soul and deposits it in the Haven. An undead husk of the last princess of Tiranoc, desperately seeking absolution from the one person she trusts to give it to her.

this was posted over on warseer, http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405465-End-Times-Archaon-Roundup-Discussion/page85, post 1687

Cap'nSmurfs

03-13-2015, 03:23 PM

Thanks for that. And nice to see the author stepping in!

Anggul

03-13-2015, 05:12 PM

I'm guessing this is the novel then? I've just stuck to the big books so far, guess I had better keep it that way. Pretty bad that they don't even get told what's going on (or worse, don't read it themselves).

White Tiger88

03-13-2015, 07:39 PM

So we got any Info on if Archy bites the dust and what is in his formation\army list?

:D

Erik Setzer

03-13-2015, 09:53 PM

So we got any Info on if Archy bites the dust and what is in his formation\army list?

:D

Archaon, like everyone, is gone. He and Sigmar fell into a chasm while fighting, before the world just ceased to be.

His army is pretty much every Chaos and Skaven unit all mashed into one. Characters included (it's a long list): Skarbrand, Galrauch, Kholek Suneater, Sigvald the Magnificent, Valkia, Vilitch, Glottkin, Orghotts Daemonspew, Bloab Rotspawned, Morbidex Twiceborn, Gutrot Spume, Ikit Claw, Throt the Unclean, Thanquol & Boneripper, Skreech Verminking, Be'lakor, Skarr Bloodwrath, Isabella the Accursed (Nurgle-tainted Isabella), Archaon (of course), Morghur, Slugtongue, Moonclaw, Skulltaker, Karanak, the Blue Scribes, Epidemius, the Masque of Slaanesh, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Throgg, Scyla, Deathmaster Snikch, Tretch Craventail, Packmaster Skweel, Ghorros Warhoof

It's interesting to see Kairos not included. Also, the Glottkin and Maggoth Lords seem to be back.

There is no formation for Archaon. The two Chaos formations are a Khorne Daemon force (led by three different types of Bloodthirster) and a Nurgle Daemon force led by Isabella (with a Great Unclean One, because why not?)

eldargal

03-14-2015, 03:58 AM

Mr Mystery

03-14-2015, 08:45 AM

46 minutes, shift finished.

Home by around.....4:30/4:45ish....then Archaon all night.

Sounds kinky. Isn't.

Erik Setzer

03-14-2015, 09:00 AM

Not just Eldyra stripped of all agency either as it happens. Lileath let Teclis kill her so she could power a spell fair enough, but she's a goddess why does she need to be reduced to a power up for a male character? Let her do the spell and use up all her remaining power herself.

She is not "reduced to a power-up for a male character." In the very front of the book, it explains that all of the Elves except Teclis believe the legends that the Rhana Dandra will be the death of them all. That means even their gods believed that, and, given how many of them were already dead, I'd say that pretty much seems true to them. Lileath already set up a plan to save the future, knowing the present world was doomed. Her daughter was sent into a pocket dimension to rebuild the world down the line.

In the scene that she sacrifices herself, the Incarnates are surrounded and having to fight off wave after wave. They're stuck there, unable to wade through all the bodies being sent against them, and they can't get to where they need to be for the ritual. The Emperor suggest Teclis teleport them all there, but Teclis says he can't because it'd just open the rift they're trying to prevent. Lileath steps in with a note that with divine power he could do it safely, but the only way to do that is to kill her and use the power in her blood, but slowly enough that her power can linger long enough to guide them safely. Teclis isn't keen on that and argues about it, but Lileath straight up tells him "We're all going to die anyway, what does it matter what order we die in?" See above on the Elves' thoughts on the Rhana Dandra. Teclis still believes there's a chance, and of course all the other races do, so Lileath was willing to let herself die early in order to guide the Incarnates safely to where they want to go.

Why did Lileath not just cast the spell herself? Very likely because it's not in her realm of magic. Also, possibly because actual divine blood was needed to draw power from for someone else. And she didn't even believe the plan could work (and it didn't).

It makes sense in the story context, and she comes off a lot braver than Teclis. And smarter, too.

flipchuck

03-15-2015, 07:57 AM

So....the old world is now destroyed. Now what?

BTW.....any stats on Sigmar for the game? :D

eldargal

03-15-2015, 08:06 AM

That's the question isn't it? Going to be exciting finding out.:)

Theik

03-15-2015, 09:52 AM

At this point a list of casualties of the end times is a bit silly, so let's instead make a list of survivors:

Chaos
Sigmar
Spacelizards?

Aaaand... done!

BTW.....any stats on Sigmar for the game?
Karl Franz Ascended would be your stats. It's explained that Karl Franz was never revived. Sigmar was trapped in the Wind of Heavens by Tzeentch and trapped for thousands of years, and then took control of Karl Franz's body after he died; he has been Sigmar from that point on. (Although it is heavily implied that he was not at his full strength without access to Ghal Modaz.)

Erik Setzer

03-15-2015, 10:21 AM

Theik

03-15-2015, 10:24 AM

No, Sigmar fell into a chasm with Archaon right before the world ended.

The Skaven likely had some of them survive, given that in last week's White Dwarf Skreech mentioned moving Skavenblight off-world.

Also, I think maybe some others escaped. Still need to read the book myself, though.

Yes, and then he is seen at the last page where he tries to reform the world.
The Skaven are a dubious case as it's not mentioned in the book at all, it's only mentioned in the white dwarf. It's possible, but the book doesn't say anything about it.
As for others... I guess? If they're now in the Realm of Chaos, they might still be alive. But the book is pretty clear that the entire old world gets dragged into the realm of chaos, so anybody still on the old world is now stuck there, if they are even still alive.

Erik Setzer

03-15-2015, 01:54 PM

Yes, and then he is seen at the last page where he tries to reform the world.

Which last page are you referring to?

With just the basic style text, the last page ends with Sigmar and Archaon going into the rift (sorry, not off a chasm, that was me confusing skimming earlier and seeing Archaon fall). The next page after that tells the point of view of Malekith, Alarielle, and Tyrion watching everything end (and describes what Malekith feels as his very being is unmade). The final page after that, the very last one in the book, says:

"... In doing so, they paid no heed to the tiny speck of light tumbling in the infinite darkness - the glowing essence of what had once been a man.
Through the storm of nothingness he fell, adrift for aeons upon unseen tides.
Then came a glimmering orb, a fiery world-heart grown cold as the abyss.
Desperate, the figure seized upon the sphere with a grip that could shatter mountains. He stared into the void, and from the darkness, the void stared back.
The figure clung tight, marshalling his faded strength. He reached forth his hand, and a miracle took shape."

That's it. You might be assuming that's Sigmar (though Teclis would make more sense, really), you might be assuming he's trying to reform the world. But it doesn't say who it is, or what the miracle that took shape was, or even what he was trying to do.

Theik

03-15-2015, 02:23 PM

Which last page are you referring to?
....

That's indeed what I am referring to.
For starters, Teclis was never a man, he was an elf.
As an additional note, both Tyrion and Teclis both refer to Karl Franz as being "a man no more" during the book, because he has been merged with Sigmar.

It's the most logical assumption, really. Far more logical than the off-the-hook suggestions people have been throwing around that it is a 40k character.

Erik Setzer

03-15-2015, 03:29 PM

That's indeed what I am referring to.
For starters, Teclis was never a man, he was an elf.
As an additional note, both Tyrion and Teclis both refer to Karl Franz as being "a man no more" during the book, because he has been merged with Sigmar.

It's the most logical assumption, really. Far more logical than the off-the-hook suggestions people have been throwing around that it is a 40k character.

In their context, "a man" could just mean a mortal person, not necessarily a human, or even a male person.

I don't assume it to be the Emperor from 40K because I can't see them suddenly throwing out his origin story (which is pretty awesome, IMO). And it wouldn't exactly make sense given that the Skaven were calling the Eldar (by accident) and Draigo was already wandering through the Warp and the Eye of Terror already existed, so yeah it's the same universe, but then it'd have to be after the fall of the Eldar and waking up Slaanesh (clearly), and the Emperor was kicking before then.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-15-2015, 05:07 PM

I'm up to "Nagash wishes to parlay" and I've got to say, this book is ****in' relentless.

Insert_nickname_here

03-15-2015, 05:25 PM

Finished reading the book today, nice to be back on Bols after hiding away to avoid spoilers. Mannfred is a complete and utter prat of the very highest calibre.

wonkobaggins

03-15-2015, 05:58 PM

Finished reading the book today, nice to be back on Bols after hiding away to avoid spoilers. Mannfred is a complete and utter prat of the very highest calibre.

I completely agree! I had to set the book down for a minute and shake my head when he sided with chaos during the last scene. The writers did a great job of putting that moment together; I really thought he'd side with the incarnates.

flipchuck

03-16-2015, 07:31 AM

Wait...back up. The old world got sucked into the realm of chaos? That means it still might be intact? That would change everything.

Mr Mystery

03-16-2015, 07:43 AM

Currently about half way through.

And it's good fun so far! Just had the meeting of the Incarnates, and the binding of Belakor.

Shall read more tonight!

eldargal

03-16-2015, 08:05 AM

Any mention of the Countess of Nuln? She survived Glottkin but Sigmar or whoever said all the Electors were dead so something must have happened to her.

Mr Mystery

03-16-2015, 08:21 AM

No recorded fate so far.

Pretty much anyone who was anyone got a mention at Averheim.

Seems she's D.E.D.

eldargal

03-16-2015, 08:23 AM

Figures.

Erik Setzer

03-16-2015, 08:48 AM

Wait...back up. The old world got sucked into the realm of chaos? That means it still might be intact? That would change everything.

I'm not sure that's what happened. It describes the world being torn apart. There's also still a bunch of battles before the world completely ends. When it describes the rift getting Malekith, it describes all of his old memories, especially the worst ones, coming to the fore, then being sucked out of him, until he forgets who he even is, before it finally wipes him out.

- - - Updated - - -

Figures.

It's about what you'd expect, given that she was never a character with a model in the game, and those seem to be the ones getting most of the attention. But still, hey, who knows, anyone not specifically mentioned as dying might still be alive!

Mr Mystery

03-16-2015, 08:54 AM

Regarding Lileath's 'Otherworld'......

Not sure where that's going at the moment....

So far, she's said to Duc Jerrod that other races have their echoes in that world. Last time it was mentiond (so far as I have read)....she had lost contact with it, fearing Chaos has already found it....

Cap'nSmurfs

03-16-2015, 09:31 AM

Everybody dies. E v e r y b o d y. (Except I assume those who left the world through some means, like the lizards and Thanquol, if Skreech's plan worked).

e v e r y b o d y

I've finished the book, and it's great fun, epic, fitting, and very very sad. It's a good send-off for the world and all those characters.

Just waiting to see what the miracle in the darkness brings forth.

(Oh by the way, the nonsense about Grimgor being a "latent psyker" is ****ing nonsense, like, my god, where did you get that from, it's not even the right setting, guy. There's not even anything which SOUNDS like that being a revelation. He just breaks face for a chapter).

Ask me questions if you like! Except for "did X survive" because the answer is "no".

Punch Kick Punch Kick

03-16-2015, 09:59 AM

Ask me questions if you like! Except for "did X survive" because the answer is "no".

Who was floating in the void and desperately grabbed the world. "One was a man" and all that jazz?

Punch Kick Punch Kick

03-16-2015, 10:03 AM

I feel like it didn't post my reply. So here's another shot.

Cap'nSmurfs, who, in your best supposition, was it floating in the void after all is said and done?

Erik Setzer

03-16-2015, 12:37 PM

X didn't survive? But X was the best character! X had such a rich background, and so much heart. I really thought if anyone made it, X would make it...

Theik

03-16-2015, 01:03 PM

Any mention of the Countess of Nuln? She survived Glottkin but Sigmar or whoever said all the Electors were dead so something must have happened to her.

She was never a Warhammer core-character to begin with. None of the characters from Forgeworld get any mention whatsoever.

But to make it easier for you, I'll just list all the female characters and their moment of badassery, cause that's what you're really after. ;P

==================

Valkia dies while trying to claim the Empire battle standard and the skull of Ludwig Schwarzhelm, when she leaps at him and impales herself on the standard to deliver him a mortal blow.

Alarielle summons a whole army of massive primordeal treeman that beat back Khorne's blood hunt, but afterwards she starts being unable to do much of anything because she is tied too closely to the weave as the Incarnate of Life, and the fact that the weave is getting heavily distorted is making her ill.

Hellebron does a lot of stabby-stabby, ends up in Khorne's army and the Skar-fellows end up following her as their new queen.

Lileath is too weakened after her creation of the haven (which gets eaten by Chaos, omnomnom) and instead begs Teclis to end her life so that he can use her blood for a ritual to transport all the incarnates to Archeon's stronghold before he can end the world.

Regarding Lileath's 'Otherworld'......

Not sure where that's going at the moment....

So far, she's said to Duc Jerrod that other races have their echoes in that world. Last time it was mentiond (so far as I have read)....she had lost contact with it, fearing Chaos has already found it....

It's gone. Be'lakor finds out about it and the chaos gods eat it.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-16-2015, 01:12 PM

Or at least, that's what Lileath thinks. Dun dun dun!

The Ladies:

Hellebron ends up killed by Alarielle. Alarielle is pretty epic throughout. At one point she scandalizes Teclis by swearing up a storm.

Neferata does well at the Siege of the Black Pyramid and ends up left in charge of Sylvania when Nagash marches to meet the other Incarnates. The Silver Pinnacle got ransacked while she was off with Nagash's conquest of Nehekhara. She's not happy about that. Also, one of the reasons Mannfred's so low in Nagash's favour is that he pissed Neferata off, leading to her going back to the Silver Pinnacle initially. (She comes back when she realizes it's sacked and Nagash needs her help). Given that Nagash only took Mannfred along to Loren to hand him over to the elves, Neferata's quite a lot higher in his estimation.

Equally, Khalida is viewed by Arkhan as basically the only worthwhile Tomb King.

Isabella is a stone-cold (no pun intended) badass. Seriously. Eventually Vlad sacrifices himself to save her from her daemonic possession. We only see Vlad's body, impaled with a smile on his face, on a stake. Of Isabella there's no sign, but Vlad gave her the Von Carstein ring before hauling them both off the wall.

By the by, Nagash did actually try to find Isabella. Nurgle's minions found her first, though, and transformed her into an ironic doom for the Undead - her touch is now basically an instant-kill if you're undead.

Naestra and Arahan are their usual comic-relief selves. They're very good. There's also a lovely picture of them, one grinning like a loon, the other very composed.

High Points:

Ikit Claw's mole-machines drill into Nagash's black pyramid and blow it up! Bereft of his connection to the underworld and its immense reserves of power, Nagash is no more powerful than any of the other incarnates (ie. he only controls one wind of Magic, not all the souls of those who've ever died) and can no longer achieve Godhood. So he has to seek alliance with the other Incarnates. He's still amazingly powerful.

Archaon chops Fateweaver into bits! (He didn't see that coming!)

Nagash splats daemons like it's not a thing, and goes toe-to-toe with Ka'Bandha!

Sigvald and Krell have an epic duel, which Sigvald just about wins having been driven into a rage by his peerless beauty being marred (quite badly) by an enormous axe!

Vlad taunts Mannfred over and over again!

Mannfred is a selfish idiot!

GRIMGOR IS DA BEST!

Teclis blows up!

Malekith, at that point I think the oldest surviving creature in the world, is the last point of view as the rift expands, which is quite fitting.

Dwarfs are lovely throughout. Gelt is a damn hero, too.

Tyrion knows that the Emperor is Sigmar immediately.

Sigmar is running at half-power until he's reunited with Ghal Maraz in the final battle. He comes across like a good, wise, capable leader. He ruins Archaon's entire ****, too.

Tyrion's whole story was a result of Teclis' manipulation; he needed an Incarnate of Light, but Tyrion would never do while Khaine's shadow lingered on him. So it was all a big trick which got slightly out of hand.

Teclis contacted Nagash while the latter was a spirit, and tried to persuade him to join in Teclis' plan. Nagash refused, but it gave him the idea of claiming the Wind of Death to become a God.

In the end, they're so close, but no cigar.

Theik

03-16-2015, 01:33 PM

Sigvald and Krell have an epic duel, which Sigvald just about wins having been driven into a rage by his peerless beauty being marred (quite badly) by an enormous axe!

He did actually win. He beats Krell until his hands are broken and bloody. Then Throgg smacks his head in and pisses on his corpse for good measure. :D

Cap'nSmurfs

03-16-2015, 02:01 PM

I didn't say he didn't win. "Just about" is just an indication of how close it was~

Insert_nickname_here

03-16-2015, 03:30 PM

I think it's also important to point out that, even though Archaeon killed Grimgor, it was only by hiding behind U'Zuhl's skirt that he managed to win, Grimgor could have taken him.

White Tiger88

03-16-2015, 04:27 PM

Hmmmm so what happens to Archy & Belakor? And how good are his rules? :P

Cap'nSmurfs

03-16-2015, 05:24 PM

T H E Y A L L D I E

Specifically:

Archaon goes tumbling off into the void while wrestling with Sigmar.

He's 895 points of awesome.

Grimgor managed to smash the Eye of Sheerian, forcing Archaon to Limit Break (ie. unleash his sword) and kill him.

Be'lakor is trapped in a crystal. He's probably going to be destroyed by Gotrek Gurnisson in five days' time when that book releases.

Oh, a lovely little moment, speaking of crystals: Vilitch the Curseling ends up in one. Further, because He's Failed Tzeentch For The Last Time, the Changer of the Ways makes it so that Vilitch's brother (the big brute) is in charge of their body from now on.

eldargal

03-17-2015, 06:53 AM

She was never a Warhammer core-character to begin with. None of the characters from Forgeworld get any mention whatsoever.

I'm not talking about a Forge World character, I'm talking about the Elector Countess of Nuln who has been around as long as most of the other elector counts and was last seen fighting at Altdorf and survived but has apparently been deemed unimportant enough to be killed offscreen without any mention.

That's a ****ing dumb way for Valkia to die, it better not be permanent.

Lileath dying as a ****ing power up for Teclis is ****ty too.

Mr Mystery

03-17-2015, 06:57 AM

I think people have somewhat undersold Lileath's sacrifice.....

There's a lot more to it than a power-up.

First up, she causes the remaining Bretonnians to go off in a huff, having revealed their entire society to have been her doing, and manipulation. Then, she loses The Haven entirely.

Her schemes failed utterly, and all but doomed the world. Her sacrifice is her repentance of sorts.

eldargal

03-17-2015, 07:00 AM

Meh, they could have had her do the ritual herself and sacrifice herself that way, instead she has to have a man do it for her. I just hope GW do better going forward than they have with End Times. Quite looking forward to seeing what happens next, so long as they have got the OTT grimdark out of their system with End Times.

Mr Mystery

03-17-2015, 07:03 AM

Teclis has to do it because he needs to capture her soulstuff - and it would appear that needs her blood on his hands, very literally.

Though what Alarielle does to Hellebron is really quite cool.....

eldargal

03-17-2015, 07:11 AM

Well they wrote that he needed too, there is a difference. They could have written it differently, they chose not to.

Mr Mystery

03-17-2015, 07:38 AM

Adds to the dramatic flair - especially as Teclis has been a right goon throughout.

Could have been any of the Elven Pantheon sure, but they went with Lileath, Teclis' patron.

Erik Setzer

03-17-2015, 08:00 AM

Well they wrote that he needed too, there is a difference. They could have written it differently, they chose not to.

They wrote it the way that made sense. Just because it might upset the most extreme of "feminists" is no reason to try to twist and alter the story to make a pack of women The Most Important People Ever. And frankly, that's the only way you wouldn't be complaining right now. It feels like a tired old line by now. I'd love to have more strong female characters, but you ***** about it even when they make a female character do something important. You find some way, ANY way you can, to claim it's really just helping the men take the spotlight and the women aren't doing anything noteworthy. By now, it just feels like we're all being trolled with an act.

Either start using logic, or just stop. It's tiring to see so many threads devolve into you pissing and moaning about GW not making women the best at everything and getting rid of the male characters. Or even the complaints about models, like the incessant complaints about the Harlequins, yet half of my Harlequin Troupe models are female, which meant you were wrong, but rather than wait and confirm, you spent days railing against GW not having them be 50% female.

So far, in this topic, I don't recall you contributing anything other than more of the same old complaints that anything cool the women do isn't good enough for you. We have all this story to talk about, all these things going on, THE END OF THE VERY WORLD ITSELF. And all you can do is complain repeatedly that the women didn't do it all, complaining over and over even after someone tells you how it makes sense in the context of the story.

Do you have anything to contribute to topics other than this faux "feminist" act? If not, I'll gladly add you to the ignore list with the other trolls like Path Walker. There's a lot of interesting conversations to be had here and I'd gladly see you involved in them, but I am well past sick of you turning everything into another illogical complaint fest that does gender equality no good whatsoever.

- - - Updated - - -

Adds to the dramatic flair - especially as Teclis has been a right goon throughout.

Could have been any of the Elven Pantheon sure, but they went with Lileath, Teclis' patron.

Weren't they pretty much all dead by that point, though? Which is kind of why she had to be the one to make the sacrifice.

And she made a good point, they were all dead anyway. If her death might give the world some hope, cool. She was strong enough to make a sacrifice that made her life worth something. But I guess it'd be better for her to just die meaninglessly?

In the context of the complaining here, I don't think any other outcome would have stopped the complaints. So she casts the spell herself somehow... Oh, cool, all the Incarnates pop to Middenheim, and then she still has nothing to do, because she put every plan she could think of into motion already (even while knowing it was kind of moot). So then we get to hear complaints that she just acted to teleport a male character to get the job done... even though the male character failed pretty hard. Either way, it's a loss, because it can be twisted into a complaint that the female isn't treated as well as the male, even though to me she comes off a heck of a lot stronger than the fool Teclis is. (Oh, right, except I actually read the thing we're talking about, as opposed to someone else making damning claims and complaints without having read the text.)

Mr Mystery

03-17-2015, 08:05 AM

Ad hominem attacks?

Really?

Lordy forbid that someone should have an opinion you don't personally agree with. Lawks no.

As I said to EG - the write ups really haven't done that particular scene justice, as they entirely miss out the context of the sacrifice etc.

eldargal

03-17-2015, 08:11 AM

Mr Mystery

03-17-2015, 08:18 AM

Worth noting Throgg is back in Archaon.....so either Gotrek and Felix are again slightly to the left of actual canon, or we'll be seeing a resurrected via Troll Blood snack consumed just prior to beheading Ulrika.

But otherwise yeah - compared to Snorri and Gotrek's arc in that book, Felix and Ulrika's was really quite bungled.

As for the Elector Countess - I'm not feeling it. There's little to no mention made of any of the Elector Counts that I can recall? Well, other than the one from Middenheim, but that's unavoidable given the overall plot.

eldargal

03-17-2015, 08:44 AM

I hope so, I mean I'm fine with everyone dying but that's the point but I don't want to see the most prominent female character in WFB with three of her own novels end by being executed needlessly by her ex-boyfriend to give him feels, creepy as hell that was.

Someone said to Vlad he would be Emperor by default because all the Electors were dead, but last we saw the Countess of Nuln was a alive having actively participated in the defense of Altdorf. So at some point she has been killed and no one thought it important enough to mention.

Erik Setzer

03-17-2015, 08:50 AM

Just stick him on your ignore list, he's not worth paying any attention too, just another waste of space with an opinion.

Hmm. And you should be on ignore lists as well, for just wasting space with your "opinions" that come off as trolling? Tell me, did you ever go back and apologize for causing such a commotion when it turned out you were wrong about the Harlequins? Once again: Half of my Harlequin Troupe are female models. You complained repeatedly without having the facts, and you're doing so again. And then you choose to be offensive about someone else? Really? You waste more space than anyone outside of the more obvious trolls, don't be so hasty to try to write off others.

The thing that bugs me about this is that GW have done really well in some ways and then dropped the ball in others. Neferata's story is great, Khalida too and Alarielle. But Eldyra (and Ulrika's) are atrocious and by all accounts they seem to have forgotten about the Countess of Nuln and just had her killed sometime between Glottkin and Archaeon without mentioning it and she deserved better, she's been the most neglected Elector Count over the past twenty years or so as it is they coudl at least have had her go out in a blaze of glory manning her own cities last cannons to take down a ****ing daemon or something. But no we just infer her death from a comment about no electors surviving. Lileath I also think sounds very crappy whatever the context and Valkia's sounds downright dumb but given she is likely to be reincarnated given Chaos wins whatever.

They did the same thing to so many male characters, but you aren't seeing that because you're not reading the books, and you don't care, because they're male. Ungrim Ironfist was dumb enough to leave the gates of his keep unguarded long enough for Hell Pit Abominations to get in and destroy the place with toxic gas. Karl Franz got killed and had to be reincarnated as a god (so KF is gone). Valten ultimately did nothing. Nagash goes out ignobly, and his grand plan was fooled by simple Skaven shenanigans. I could go on and on. Tyrion is an insufferable douche. Teclis fails over and over with an over-complicated scheme that still didn't work. Malekith "redeems" himself and becomes the kind of person who would commit a selfless act like trying to save Alarielle... and gets his legs crushed in the process, with no one giving him a second thought, treated like nothing without even a thanks before he's unmade by the rift.

Characters dying off-screen (IF they did) or having a stupid death isn't limited to female characters. It's gender-equal in this mess. Read the books, turn off the "feminism" for a bit, and consider things without considering any character's gender.

(You'll also probably notice that, for all that a lot of us enjoy the End Times story, it has more "WTF?!?" moments or deus ex machinas than Storm of Chaos.)

- - - Updated - - -

As for the Elector Countess - I'm not feeling it. There's little to no mention made of any of the Elector Counts that I can recall? Well, other than the one from Middenheim, but that's unavoidable given the overall plot.

She was last seen leaving Nuln. It's mentioned there are pockets of the Empire that haven't even been hit yet, towns here and there that are - at the moment - "safe" as Averheim is assaulted. It's possible she went to one of those and was trying to marshal the strength of what forces she had left or were in the area, but since no one knew, they couldn't assume she was still alive, especially as Nuln was a giant pile of ruin. So she might well have been alive and could have even been doing some good stuff, but since it wasn't really important to the story, we'll never know.

Even for the size of the book, they had a lot to squeeze in, and it feels rushed as it is. Throw in the fate of every character everywhere and it could get a bit bloated. Just make up your own story for the fate of those with no definitive end.

Punch Kick Punch Kick

03-17-2015, 09:08 AM

I would have that that Valkia impaling herself in the act of attempting to claim the personal standard of resurrected god is a pretty damn impressive way to go.

I had hoped for more from the Nuln Countess, too. But then I let it go really fast when everyone died.

The only thing I really care about is who is floating in the void when all is said and done. Thematically, I want it to be Sigmar. He's the iconic character that makes Fantasy what it is. Hell, it's named for his weapon of choice. He's cool, he earned his glory, and he did amazing things and could fit as a progenitor of a new world, making Fantasy the same but different.

Theik

03-17-2015, 10:47 AM

Just stick him on your ignore list, he's not worth paying any attention too, just another waste of space with an opinion.

The thing that bugs me about this is that GW have done really well in some ways and then dropped the ball in others. Neferata's story is great, Khalida too and Alarielle. But Eldyra (and Ulrika's) are atrocious and by all accounts they seem to have forgotten about the Countess of Nuln and just had her killed sometime between Glottkin and Archaeon without mentioning it and she deserved better, she's been the most neglected Elector Count over the past twenty years or so as it is they coudl at least have had her go out in a blaze of glory manning her own cities last cannons to take down a ****ing daemon or something. But no we just infer her death from a comment about no electors surviving. Lileath I also think sounds very crappy whatever the context and Valkia's sounds downright dumb but given she is likely to be reincarnated given Chaos wins whatever.

Eh, you're grasping at straws, the female characters are not portrayed any worse than the male characters in the end times.
Let's compare, shall we?

Emmanuelle von Liebwitz vs Boris Todbringer
First of all, she's never been an important character, none of the elector counts save for Karl Franz, Boris (notable only because of Khazrak) and Marius Leitdorf (interesting only because he is insane) are. They're statesmen, they're not major players in a story about the end of the world. This is like complaining that the major of Houston was left out of a story about a riot in England.

But let's compare them all the same.

The only note-worthy thing Boris does is abandon his city to go on his personal crusade against Khazrak, run straight into an ambush, get all of his men killed and then manages to kill Khazrak, realizing it wasn't worth it at all. Emmanuelle does better simply by not doing something daft.

Lileath vs...gods?
Lileath is by far the biggest player as far as the gods are concerned when it comes to the End Times. The whole idea with the incarnates is her idea. She is personally responsible for the existence of Bretonia. She creates the only safe haven from Chaos which would have held fine if Drycha hadn't ratted her out to Manfred. Yet all you seem to care about is that she's "a power up for Teclis" (let's ignore the fact that she's been using Teclis as a tool the whole time). They have maybe an hour or so until the world ends, they need to get to the other side of the Empire and they're out of options. Teclis doesn't want to kill her, but it's the only way for him to cast a spell strong enough to teleport all the incarnates, not just because it is a spell that requires divine essence, but also because it requires an innocent life as blood sacrifice.

If you want a real powerup god, look no further than Ulric, who gets roughly three minutes of screentime when Teclis steals his essence to revive Tyrion (talk about being a powerup) and then hitches a ride until his death on the beast patriarch's shoulder to at least make him somewhat useful.

Valkia vs Skarr
Let's compare Khorne's champions, shall we?

Valkia conquers Naggaroth and leaves it a wasteland. She then kills her way to Ludwig Schwarzhelm's side and kills him at the cost of her own life in her blood-fueled rage. (Which isn't really 'downright dumb' so much as 'downright Khornite', which are pretty much the same.)

Now let's look at Khorne's greatest champion, Skarr.

He gets introduced and dies mere minutes later. He gets revived by Khorne halfway through the book, only to die AGAIN half a second later when Gelt turns him into a golden statue. Khorne bails him out of that as well, at which point he manages his first noteworthy kill in the entire book, killing Ashtari the pheonix, only to die again seconds later while Ashtari is reborn as a fire pheonix.

Compared to that, Valkia is by far Khorne's greatest mortal-ish champion.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-17-2015, 11:49 AM

Skarr does die a lot. I thought Valkia's bit was too brief - she did at least get to destroy Naggaroth, which is no mean feat.

Anyway, Archaon is a really good book. Really good. The missions look fun, too - I'd love to find some like-minded people and play through the End Times battles, now.

Erik Setzer

03-17-2015, 01:20 PM

Does Skarr at least get to jam out some with his 80s hair metal band, Skarr Bloodwrath and the Wrathmongers?

My only problem with the missions isn't so much a problem with the actual missions as it is availability of models... Multiple missions have some or all of the Incarnates, and it's hard to have all of them available. Even with the nice selection of WFB players at the local GW, I don't think we have them all covered. I guess if you can proxy, that works, and if it's a fun game, there's nothing wrong with that, right?

Theik

03-17-2015, 02:24 PM

I have one of the incarnates. Sadly enough, it's my custom converted incarnate of fire dwarf, who is now dead. So I don't actually have any of the incarnates for the missions.
I could proxy my gryphon beast wizard for an emperor incarnate of air, but it just doesn't feel the same.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-17-2015, 09:13 PM

One of the things is that there's plenty of time which elapses between chapters (and lots that happens off-screen), so there's loads of opportunities to make up battles Grimgor fought before his death at the fall of Averheim: how did his Dwarf throng get there, for instance, and what perils did they face? How about defending Averheim in the early weeks of the siege, and so on?

Lexington

03-17-2015, 09:56 PM

Does Skarr at least get to jam out some with his 80s hair metal band, Skarr Bloodwrath and the Wrathmongers?
I was just talking with a friend of mine who got the book, and we both realized that Skarr Bloodwrath is the last model that will ever be released for Warhammer as we know it.

Now we have Depression. WHFB deserved better. :(

Mr Mystery

03-18-2015, 04:24 AM

I like the model.

Mayhaps with a more subtle paint job. 'officlal' one looks like a very well done Steak.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

03-18-2015, 04:52 AM

It's an alriiiight model, but a bit too Xtreme by my judgement (yes, even for Warhammer). I prefer the special characters which present something unusual, like the Curseling or Festus, rather simply "The Khorniest Khorneboy". ("Generic Khorneboys have big axes, so we'll give Skarr TWO big axes!" "Wait, some generics already have two big axes." "Then he'll have two AXE-FLAILS!)

...part of why although I love 40k Chaos, I'm not that crazy about many of the Chaos specials.

Erik Setzer

03-18-2015, 07:52 AM

The model for Skarr is just silly, even for Warhammer doing some outright silly things. The armor looks weird, but the biggest annoyance to me are those weapons. It's funny that there's some art that appears to be meant as Skarr in the book, but no chain. Why? Probably because the artist went with something that made sense, and they hadn't let a child loose in the CAD program yet. Reading the attempts to explain how he uses those things is torturous, because they can't really explain any way those chains could be used in a way that makes sense.

Chop off the chains, do a bit of other conversion, he could look fine. But overall, it's really crazy that after some really nice models throughout the End Times series, even the Bloodthirsters who just came out (which look fine without the completely stupid bright edge lines paint jobs done on GW's display models), they have models like the Wrathmongers and Skarr that just seem like they're not even trying. That stuff feels like it'd fit in with some of the side games that popped up in the '90s that had models that looked so goofy they couldn't sell and ended up being a footnote in miniatures history. (Okay, I'm also pissed about the Stormfiends being single-pose models in this day and age, and being very limited in how you can equip the models. But at least they're nice looking single-pose models that don't fit their bases and require six boxes if you want a unit of three Ratling Guns *and* a unit of three tunnelers.)

Path Walker

03-18-2015, 08:24 AM

Skarr is great and the chains on him and the Wrathmongers add a lot to the model in my opinion, they add a dynamic element that conveys movement, for a high level painter there is a lot of interesting parts to the models that will make for some excellent results and effects, if you're just a gamer and want models on the table, they're likely just an annoyance, but if you're a painter, they're really good models.

And why would you want more than one Tunneler in a unit?

Mr Mystery

03-18-2015, 02:24 PM

Dear Lord..........

Just finished it off.

Shame I read the spoiler really, because the outcome wasn't exactly totally obvious.

As for Mannfred? He's taken the crown from Joffrey as Fantasy literature's Biggest Penis....

eldargal

03-19-2015, 07:27 AM

What do you expect from Mannfred.:p

Erik Setzer

03-19-2015, 07:40 AM

Mr Mystery

03-19-2015, 07:42 AM

Well excited for whatever comes next now!

40kGamer

03-19-2015, 07:53 AM

Surprisingly enough I am too. Curse you GW, every time my wallet files for divorce you rope it back in.

eldargal

03-19-2015, 08:01 AM

Well excited for whatever comes next now!

Ditto.

#notallmannfreds
#yessallwarhammerworlds

Locke66

03-19-2015, 08:10 PM

It was an interesting ending for sure. There is obviously something coming next for Warhammer rather than this just being an end state for the world but who the "man" is that fell through the void and what the "miracle" that took shape will entail is at present difficult to guess.

The other thing that doesn't really make sense is what becomes of the new miniatures they have released. If this really was just a complete wiping clean of the slate then why make models for Skarr Bloodwrath, Nagash, Stormfiends etc that only have Warhammer application (unless they see them as collectors models). Originally I thought the idea was just to make the entire game focus on the Old World and reduce the number of races with End Times but now who knows. Maybe End Times is their Apocalypse idea and Warhammer will just sit in stasis in a time period before the End Times but that doesn't seem much fun or fit how "Lord of The End Times" ended.

Cap'nSmurfs

03-19-2015, 09:32 PM

We'll see!

Mr Mystery

03-20-2015, 03:02 AM

Hard to say.

I'm not 100% what it was that Spiritman put his hand round - but then it wouldn't be the first time I've been hit round the head with a plot point and not noticed!

Is it a full reboot? For the same reason as you gave, all the new models, im far from convinced,

Erik Setzer

03-20-2015, 05:22 AM

We know a new game is coming. If the models recently released aren't usable for it, they can still be sold as "collector models," especially as GW seems to think that's what their business is. I can see that being a long-term plan, given that they were all produced with a different box art than any of the other Warhammer kits, which would mark them as a different product line in stores.

It'd be stupid of them to do that, but it's possible.

Who knows? The wonderful thing about uber-secrecy is that people can look at expensive new models and wonder if they'll even be able to use them a few months from now.

Mr Mystery

03-20-2015, 05:32 AM

I guess.

But only if you have a persecution complex.

Especially given the reliable rumour mongers point to the core of the game remaining, with complimentary systems.

Erik Setzer

03-20-2015, 07:37 AM

I guess.

But only if you have a persecution complex.

Especially given the reliable rumour mongers point to the core of the game remaining, with complimentary systems.

You don't need a "persecution complex" to realize it's possible for GW to make a questionable call.

Also, the "reliable rumour mongers" haven't always been 100% accurate. Hence why they're rumor mongers and not news mongers. I'm not going to definitively say anything until I have the game in my hands.

My bets are obviously hedged in favor of continuing to be able to use the models, since I've got three boxes of Stormfiends, two boxes of Morghasts, a Verminlord, and Thanquol (plus some Spirit Hosts and a Nagash I got from someone else).

Oh, and with regards to the insulting jab at "persecution complex," anyone honest can see the company isn't so much worried about gamers and use of models in-game, when you look at stuff like the Stormfiends. You can only build them one way, with no ability to change pose unless you heavily modify the model to practically rebuild parts of it. They don't rank up well at all. If you want, say, a unit of ratling guns *and* a unit of tunnelers, you need six boxes. So you get to pay $200 to be able to put together even just one unit of three models with the same weapons (which is the best way to do it, really), then you have models that look the same (made even more blatant with the ones perching on pieces of terrain, so three guys found the exact same looking piece of broken masonry to stand on?!?), and don't rank up well when they fight in combat, which is pretty darn important for the ones that, you know, actually fight in combat. But yes, do tell me how they aren't treating the models as collector items and they would never do something that would seriously inconvenience gamers or cost them a lot of money just to have a feasible in-game unit that still isn't terribly great on the table-top but would look just fine if you were putting individual models on a shelf to just sit there and look pretty.

Or, you know, just don't be so insulting when someone points out a possibility and also adds that they doubt GW's actually stupid enough to do it.

Trojan66

03-20-2015, 12:05 PM

I find it mind blowing that some of you out there, you know who you are, are still clinging to the hope that warhammer remains a similar game to the one we've been playing.
Wake up and smell the coffee, for heavens sake !
Warhammer has gone. It will come back as a small scale simplistic game aimed at enabling everyone to pick up a couple of regiment boxs and go play.
Be happy about, be sad about but it is happening

Erik Setzer

03-20-2015, 12:37 PM

I have no idea what's going to happen with the game, so I'll reserve judgment until it happens.

Since this is more a fluff topic, how about guesses (since that's all we have) on what the future will hold for that?

Locke66

03-20-2015, 09:26 PM

Since this is more a fluff topic, how about guesses (since that's all we have) on what the future will hold for that?

Well the epilogue of End Times reads that a light that had once been a "man" fell through the void for "what might have been centuries" until he came onto a "shard of the world that had been". Then "as it slumped, exhausted, thought and memory returned and soon it's strength as well. And with strength came memory - a name. And with that name came purpose" and then "gathering what remained of his strength he stretched out a hand and a miracle occurred in the void".

To me it seems pretty clear that by far the most likely candidate for the man would be Sigmar. The only other two possibilities would be Archon or Nagash as far as I see it. Archon was a champion of the Chaos Gods that have gone elsewhere for their entertainment and his purpose is fulfilled and Nagash seems unlikely. So the question would be what would Sigmar's purpose be? He's a god of mankind so restoring humanity somehow seems the most likely outcome but we know it's only a small part of the world so it couldn't be the entire Old World or even likely the entire Empire.

Now look back at the rumours from January:

-The Old World is utterly shattered and looks nothing like it did in the past. This shattering is so devastating that it’s on a ‘dimensional’ level separating civilisations into bubbles of reality.
-The timeline will be moved on by a couple hundred years or so.
-There will only be six factions present in the world. One of these will be a heavily armoured ‘religious’ army almost built as a mirror to the Chaos Warrior. Think ‘Space Marines’ of Warhammer.
-Skirmish based wargaming switching to round bases and ways of ‘ranking up’ with trays similar to those used in War of the Ring.
-Low model count linked to smaller range with limited run miniatures released for months at a time before vanishing again. Same with Mini-White Dwarf expansions to keep the story going.

While it's possible someone just got a look at the End Times epilogue and connected the dots I think that the "bubble hammer" idea seems a lot more plausible. We know Lileath made a haven for the Elves outside the Warhammer world, the Lizardmen went somewhere and some other races like the Skaven had a way out of the Old World (I only read the BL novels so don't have the full details sadly).

So for "confirmed" races that could have survived you could say so far there are:

- Skaven
- Elves
- Humans (maybe the heavily armoured "religous" army in opposition to Chaos)
- Chaos (if the universe is the same there will still be Chaos)
- Undead (assuming Shyish exists there will be those who abuse it)
- Lizardmen (or did they just die? Hard to know without the proper books)

The ones that seem unlikely given from what I have read would be Dwarfs, Ogres and maybe Orc and Goblins (although again maybe I am missing some lore here... what became of Skarsnick?). If "Bubble hammer" is whats coming who is most likely to be in it?

40kGamer

03-20-2015, 09:32 PM

I can't imagine a fantasy battle realm without Orcs and Goblins.

Erik Setzer

03-21-2015, 07:14 AM

The novel apparently went into stuff the end of the basic book didn't. Still not reason to believe it's Sigmar. Heck, if the realm Araloth was protecting was truly "destroyed," it could well be Araloth floating, remembering his name, and finding the "world-heart" (the term used in ET:Archaon) that represents the "miracle" he was meant to protect. Hence, purpose. Malekith is the only person we see in ET:A who actually loses his memory before he's torn into the rift, though that could just be an issue of point of view.

Bubblehammer is not something you can believe if you've read the books. The Warhammer world was eaten. It was not blown up. The rumor almost certainly is based on the bits of the world that Kroak protected (likely to protect more Lizardmen). The "miracle" is likely remaking the world in a new form.

The timeline "moved on a couple hundred years" doesn't make so much sense when you have a form floating for "eons" before it finds a world-heart. And given that it's a new world, it's pretty much a new timeline. So comparisons of years make no sense.

It's insane to mix round and square bases, suggesting you use round bases for certain types of Warhammer games and not others. That's incredibly annoying for players to deal with, and wouldn't accomplish the idea of people buying twice the models.

And the whole concept of blocks of units is so insane that I can't take it serious. Turning the releases into limited-edition blocks like Magic: the Gathering? That turns off enough people from MtG, and only gets accepted there because you can keep up while spending less than a hundred dollars a block. Making all of the releases limited edition could push them closer to "collector model" territory, but is a horrible way to do a miniatures game, would alienate customers, and in time would guarantee the death of Warhammer. They would have to make the models ridiculously priced to get back investment on molds and stuff. People couldn't afford the hobby. The second-hand market would be horrendous, especially with scalpers. Nothing about that idea makes sense.

There's no "confirmation" that any humans survived, and the Elves relied on Lileath's pocket dimension, which, IIRC, got located by Chaos. Similarly, there's no "confirmation" all the Orcs were wiped out. Ditto the Ogres.

I think it's most likely they're resetting the world with a new look and the ability to change or add races without completely wiping out any of them. Maybe Brets get shoved into Empire so all the humans are together, maybe all the Undead and Elves get mashed together, but with the Elves it's kind of an issue of them having made the Elves almost copies of each other in the latest books (to the point that the Wood Elves even had a unit armed with great weapons). It's kind of like World of Warcraft's Reorigination Device, remaking the world should it get too far off course and corrupted.

There's not going to be a situation where they wiped out the Orcs and Goblins, that's insane. Especially after they did a major showing at the end. That would piss off a LOT of people. As for Skarsnik, he wandered off to go take over someplace after Gobbla was killed.

Asymmetrical Xeno

03-21-2015, 08:08 AM

Not if they use Alluminium moulds, which are a lot cheaper and have a far more limited lifespan. I'm sure that's what they used for things like that limited edition space marine captain and such.

grimmas

03-21-2015, 04:16 PM

The thing is everyone is dead by the end to End Times Archaon apart from the few Lizardmen floating off through space and the Warhammer World has ceased to exist, there is a spark of life drifting through the void but that seems to be it.

That said I think the big clue in how the new game's races will pan out is the End time army lists I fancy we will see

Orcs, Goblins and ogres (all together)
Skaven
Chaos
Elves (all together)
Empire and bretonians as a human faction
Undead ( all togeather)
Not so sure about the Lizardmen

I think we will see most of the plastic units remain as it would be a bit of a waste for GW to ditch the injection molds, of course some of the more recent ones may have been made out of aluminium but I can't see it for any of the ones more than a couple of years old. I don't have much hope for the named characters though, it doesn't make sense to kill them off just to resurrect them. Of course this does leave a question over Characters released for the End Times which were all plastic and in most cases large expensive kits, I guess we'll know in a couple of months.

Mr Mystery

03-21-2015, 05:06 PM

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

03-21-2015, 06:01 PM

This is the highest level of never-going-to-happen, but in addition to Orcs and Ogres being rolled together, I'd love to see an Orc, Ogre and Chaos Dwarf alliance. "Orcs iz da boss of Gobbos, and Ogies n' Spikey Stunties iz da boss of Gobbos. Thus, Ogies n' Spikey Stunties iz Orcs."

Hey, they all worship Gods that aren't included in a pantheon, and it would add a slight Chaos tint to Ogres and Orcs, making the Warhammer races easier to divide on Order and Chaos lines. Maybe roll them all into the "Da Great Fiery Mawk".

Of course, we still have no idea how much of the previous WHFB world will exist in the next.

Trojan66

03-22-2015, 03:51 PM

Says you, with no evidence. And 'rumours' quite contrary to those from established reliable rumour mongers, such as Harry.

Do you really see any plausible reason why they would have ended the warhammer world as we know it, if they were not going to completely re invent the game ?

Mr Mystery

03-22-2015, 03:53 PM

Yep.

Lack of general drama to the setting. Warhammer is a better game than 40k, but background wise is quite the opposite.

Polishing off 30ish years of background does not necessitate doing away with 30 years of tweaks and refinements to a solid game system.

40kGamer

03-22-2015, 06:53 PM

Warhammer is a better game than 40k, but background wise is quite the opposite.

Heresy! :p

Cap'nSmurfs

03-22-2015, 08:09 PM

Gotrek Gurnisson takes Grimnir's place eternally battling in the Realm of Chaos, at the end of Slayer. That's his Doom.

It's prophesied that he can't save this world; but by his actions, perhaps the next.

Pretty cool, I thought.

Mr Mystery

03-23-2015, 06:56 AM

Heresy! :p

Truth is never Heresy.....NooB :p

Erik Setzer

03-23-2015, 08:05 AM

Cap'nSmurfs

03-23-2015, 10:02 AM

I don't think so. He might show up in some form, though.

Erik Setzer

03-23-2015, 11:36 AM

It's a possibility. If people really badly want him back, I'd bet he shows back up at least in print. But that'd take some serious public pressure. Still, that sounds like they left the ability to do it if they want to.

Locke66

03-24-2015, 07:49 PM

The novel apparently went into stuff the end of the basic book didn't. Still not reason to believe it's Sigmar.

Well it specifically says that the speck of light "had once been a man". Maybe it means a man as in the difference between male and female or maybe and more likely imo as a human male. Of course it's speculation on who it is but Sigmar was the only god in mortal flesh present at the rift as well as being the Arch God of the "good side". It seems the most likely to me that if anyone is going to be sucked into a void rift and survive it's him.

Malekith is the only person we see in ET:A who actually loses his memory before he's torn into the rift, though that could just be an issue of point of view.

In the book Malekith is seemingly crushed by rubble while saving the Everqueen

The timeline "moved on a couple hundred years" doesn't make so much sense when you have a form floating for "eons" before it finds a world-heart.

The passage at the end of the novel says regarding the pinprick of light that "it fell for what might have been centuries". That could easily be a couple of hundred years. The definition of an eon/aeon is just an indeterminate very long period of time or geographical time period division. The novel seems to clarify it.

There's no "confirmation" that any humans survived, and the Elves relied on Lileath's pocket dimension, which, IIRC, got located by Chaos. Similarly, there's no "confirmation" all the Orcs were wiped out. Ditto the Ogres.

Agreed there is no obvious confirmation that any humans survived but if Sigmar did survive as I suspect then maybe his miracle was to bring some back. Any further information on what happened in Lileath's pocket dimension? In the novels it just says she lost contact with it.

The Orcs and Ogres in the book provide no information about what happened to them post apocalypse except that Gork was personally pushing Grimgor hard to stop Archons plan. Ogres as a faction seem finished given Grimgor killed Greasus Goldtooth and subjugated the remaining Ogres and it was heavily implied that he destroyed the Chaos Dwarfs as well ("Gork had shown him favour and given him strength enough to kick over the stuntie's towers and turn their ziggurat of black obsidian into rubble"). I somehow suspect that Gork was Plan A (kill Archon and stop the apocalypse) and Mork was Plan B (get the boyz somewhere else).

I think it's most likely they're resetting the world with a new look and the ability to change or add races without completely wiping out any of them.

I just don't agree. Unless they use "just before" End Times as a permanent setting for Warhammer or retcon the whole thing I think it's almost certain they will trim some of the races at the very least. They could have easily merged some races together and moved the story forward without destroying the Old World. In fact I presented an argument for that very idea but it was based around certain things having "plot armour" which proved not to be the case (e.g there still being a world at the end of it). The course they took speaks of something more drastic. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it. The problems with current Warhammer are well known by all.

There's not going to be a situation where they wiped out the Orcs and Goblins, that's insane. Especially after they did a major showing at the end. That would piss off a LOT of people. As for Skarsnik, he wandered off to go take over someplace after Gobbla was killed.

I agree it would seem insane but who knows (...really who saw the end of End Times coming?). That's why I asked where Skarsnik went because I was wondering if there was anything about where he ended up in terms of providing a continuity for Orcs & Goblins in the post-Warhammer world.