Idependant Characters Deploying with Squads

[Dooley]

Alright so we already had the Shriek conversation on another tread I got it. My question is how do IC's join a unit in a vehicle or a drop pod. Here is my scenario:

I Play Drop podding Salamanders, I like to put Mr He'Stan in a DP with Vangaurds (the shooty ones, I get em mixed up all the time). And a Master of the Forge in a Land Raider with Termies. Now after reading all the hub bub about Shrike I start to think is this LEGAL?

The Big Red Rule Book says that in order to have an IC start in a unit he (or she) needs only be place 2" away from a unit and he/she is officialy joined that unit. The Rules do not state that the character can automatically be mounted in the vehicle but needs to be deployed then it joins it. Im sure most everyone is fine with just putting the IC's in the squad in the the vehicle but, in say, an Ard boyz formatted tourny, were fairness and fun is secondary, would it be reasonable to force opponents to deploy their IC's outside the vehicle or not come down in a DP?


*note He'Stan cannot purchase a squad or a DP or any vehicle for that matter on his own*

[fade_74]

Page 67 of the main rulebook, bottom left corner. Read Independent characters embarking and disembarking.

[Dooley]

The part in the corner does not state that the IC can be embarked at the beginning of the game.

Although the box to the left does state that ".....when it is deployed [the dedicated transport] it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters).

I guess that clears it up? The IC can join a unit "pre-game" and hitch a ride in their Transport. It makes seance to me but I would hate to get Lawyered at a tourny. On the other hand I would love to be the one that points that out at a tourney. No not really I just dont care that much.

[Darkriver]

Also on page 66 of the condensened rulebook under transport capacity should help also. States that a single unit and any number of independent characters may ride in a transport up to maximum capacity.

[Dooley]

May ride in.....not necessarily START in!

[DarkLink]

Alright so we already had the Shriek conversation on another tread I got it. My question is how do IC's join a unit in a vehicle or a drop pod. Here is my scenario:

I didn't know Marines could take big, green ogres:p.



Im sure most everyone is fine with just putting the IC's in the squad in the the vehicle but, in say, an Ard boyz formatted tourny, were fairness and fun is secondary,


You're vastly misunderstanding the purpose of 'Ard boyz. 'Ard boyz is just as fair as any other tournament, as everyone has the same points values, and everyone is trying their best to take the hardest list possible. 'Ard boyz follows the rules of the game as strictly (if not more so) as any other tournament.

Additionally, the purpose of 'Ard boyz is also to have fun. You see, some people like competing. A lot. Do you think professional athletes do what they do because they like having a casual game? No, they're doing it to compete. They will do everything in their power to win. This is not cheating. This does not mean they aren't having fun. They just won't hold back. Ever. A large percentage of men and women in this world are highly competitive people, and enjoy competing in this fashion.

So don't say that 'Ard boyz isn't fun and don't say it isn't fair. It's both. It's just not for everyone. Everyone meaning people who don't like to compete (:p wusses :p).

Not to turn this into another sportsmanship in tournament argument...:rolleyes:

[Culven]

To the original questions:

The Drop Pod isn't an issue. The Reserves rules allow the ICs to join units which are also held in Reserves.

The IC Deploying with a Unit in a Transport before the game suffers from the same RaW problem that Shrike granting Infiltrate does. That is, ICs begin the game already with the unit. Nothing states that they may join the Unit before the start of the game. So, at the time they are Deployed, they are two Units, and the Transport rules only allow one unit to be Embarked at any time. Also like the Shrike issue, most players read the rules and infer that the writers, despite what they wrote, actually intended that ICs be able to join units during Deployment. I have never heard of anyone actually trying to use RaW to prevent this during a game. It is only debated on forums so that players are informed of what the rules actually say, in case someone ever bothers to pull this one on them.

[Sam]

To the original questions:

The Drop Pod isn't an issue. The Reserves rules allow the ICs to join units which are also held in Reserves.

The IC Deploying with a Unit in a Transport before the game suffers from the same RaW problem that Shrike granting Infiltrate does. That is, ICs begin the game already with the unit. Nothing states that they may join the Unit before the start of the game. So, at the time they are Deployed, they are two Units, and the Transport rules only allow one unit to be Embarked at any time. Also like the Shrike issue, most players read the rules and infer that the writers, despite what they wrote, actually intended that ICs be able to join units during Deployment. I have never heard of anyone actually trying to use RaW to prevent this during a game. It is only debated on forums so that players are informed of what the rules actually say, in case someone ever bothers to pull this one on them.

p 48 BRB: "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

p 67 BRB: "If an independent character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked in the same vehicle, they are automatically join, just as if the character was within 2" of the unit."

So, a character can start the game with a unit by being deployed in coherency with said unit, and being in the same transport places them in coherency.

[Culven]

p 48 BRB: "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."
p 67 BRB: "If an independent character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked in the same vehicle, they are automatically join, just as if the character was within 2" of the unit."
So, a character can start the game with a unit by being deployed in coherency with said unit, and being in the same transport places them in coherency.
Now for the important part, when does the game start? This is why the RaW doesn't work right. The game doesn't start until after Deployment and Scout moves, meaning that during Deployment, the IC and Unit are separate and, by the Transport rules, may not both be in the same Transport. It actually requires a house rule to allow the IC to join a Unit before they are Deployed so that they can be a single unit when they hit the table (or are stuffed in a Transport together).

[Nabterayl]

Now for the important part, when does the game start?
More precisely, the question is what is meant by "begin the game already with?" An IC who is allowed to join a unit prior to deployment certainly "begins the game already with" that unit. So does an IC who is not allowed to join a unit prior to deployment, but is allowed to join a unit immediately prior to the first Movement phase. Both interpretations fit the phrase "begin the game with;" however, they cannot both be correct.

[Culven]

The IC rules, as you said, state that the IC may begin the game already with a unit. The mission rules provide the rule which defines when the start of the game occours (i.e. after Scout moves and before the first turn). Since there is nothing that states when before the start of the game the IC actually joins the Unit, we only have the start of the game as a point in time when the IC is part of the unit. I accept that the rules state he is already part of the unit at this point, but without anything indicating when he actually joined, we are left with the one point in time. Thus, I use that as the point from which the IC is part of the unit. This is my understanding of RaW.

I would like to reiterate that this isn't how I actually play, but I view allowing ICs to join prior to Deployment as a house rule, and it may not be accepted everywhere. This is why I try to understand what the rules actually say, so that I can make informed decisions when playing as most believe to be RaI.

[Nabterayl]

I would like to reiterate that this isn't how I actually play, but I view allowing ICs to join prior to Deployment as a house rule, and it may not be accepted everywhere. This is why I try to understand what the rules actually say, so that I can make informed decisions when playing as most believe to be RaI.
To be clear, I've never thought otherwise of you. You're one of my favorite people to discuss RAW with on this forum for precisely that reason.


The IC rules, as you said, state that the IC may begin the game already with a unit. The mission rules provide the rule which defines when the start of the game occours (i.e. after Scout moves and before the first turn). Since there is nothing that states when before the start of the game the IC actually joins the Unit, we only have the start of the game as a point in time when the IC is part of the unit. I accept that the rules state he is already part of the unit at this point, but without anything indicating when he actually joined, we are left with the one point in time. Thus, I use that as the point from which the IC is part of the unit. This is my understanding of RaW.
I think focusing on the start of the game is a mistake. As I see it, the RAW data points are these:
Independent Characters can begin the game already with a unit if deployed in coherency with that unit.
The game starts before the first Movement phase, and after all Scout moves are made.
Independent Characters without the Infiltrate special rule can prevent a unit of Infiltrators from Infiltrating by joining the unit of Infiltrators.
Any extrapolation of the actual rule must fit these three data. The leading extrapolations are "independent characters may join units after all Scout moves are made, but prior to the first Movement phase" and "independent characters may join units prior to deployment."

Under the first extrapolation:
Is true, and has no superfluous language, because a special rule that allows ICs to join units during deployment does not, by itself, require that the IC deploy within coherency of the unit so joined.
Is true regardless.
Is not actually true, because all Infiltrators will have deployed before the IC is permitted to join the squad, although this extrapolation does have the effect of restricting the area into which a unit of Infiltrators may Infiltrate if they wish to be joined by a non-Infiltrating IC.

Under the second extrapolation:
Is true, and has no superfluous language, because a special rule that allows ICs to join units during deployment does not, by itself, require that the IC deploy within coherency of the unit so joined.
Is true regardless.
Is true, because at the moment the non-Infiltrating IC joins the unit of Infiltrators, the unit loses the Infiltrate special rule per the USR section, and thus when it came time to deploy the combined unit, the unit would not have the Infiltrate special rule.
Thus, the second extrapolation seems to me to fit our data better than the first. For this reason, I really think that "independent characters may join a unit prior to deployment" fits the RAW better than "independent characters may join a unit after all Scout moves but before the first Movement phase."

EDIT: Even if one disagrees with me about datum #3, I still think it would be more accurate to say to people, "The RAW is unclear; both extrapolations fit the RAW exactly."

[Culven]

I agree with your logic, however I disagree as to which better fits the RaW data. I understand that there is the reference to ICs joining units causing them to lose Infiltrate. By my reading of RaW, this is an exception to a situation that cannot exist. However, it does seem to indicate RaI, that being that ICs can/should be able to join units prior to or during Deployment. Unfortunately, as I said, it seems to be an exception to a situation that cannot exist, if one were to go with strict RaW.

[Nabterayl]

By my reading of RaW, this is an exception to a situation that cannot exist.
Isn't that begging the question? If we're trying to figure out what the RAW is, and we come across a datum that seems to indicate the second extrapolation, and conclude that it must not do so because the second extrapolation goes against the RAW ... ?

[The Mystic]

There is one more bit of information that I think may have been missed.

In the mini rulebook on P93 under the Dawn of War deployment, the example states

" In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an inderpendant character from his HQ, joining the unit embarked in the transport. Finally, player A deploys his infiltrating unit."

This example clearly states that the inderpentant character joined the unit and was a part of it before the a previously mentioned "Start the game!" point in time. Also, he would have to count as part of that unit before "Start the game!" as indicated in the example otherwise he would not be able to embark in the transport at all as it would already be occupied by a different unit.

[Nabterayl]

EDIT: Never mind. What I originally wrote here doesn't add anything to what The Mystic just said.

[The Mystic]

For me this clearly indicates that an inderpentent character can be part of the unit before the "Start the game" point in time. This would also indicate to me that the start of the game happens at deployment when put with the language or the rules for inderpentent characters joining units.

@ Nabterayl.

With this information, what would be your opinion on the Shrike dilemna?

[Dooley]

Ok here is another wrench in the cog of progress:

Does one make a reserves roll for the IC and the Unit he wishes to join separately or together?

Scenario: I want Character A to join cool unit B and Im keeping them in reserves. Do I roll for character A and unit B separately and run the risk of not getting one of the two thus messing up my plans of uber unitdom? Or, can I roll for uber unit as a single entity, running the risk of them not showing up this turn or hoping they BOTH show up together? Each outcome will be advantageous to one or the other players, so which one is rues legal?

[SeattleDV8]

Ok here is another wrench in the cog of progress:

Does one make a reserves roll for the IC and the Unit he wishes to join separately or together?

Scenario: I want Character A to join cool unit B and Im keeping them in reserves. Do I roll for character A and unit B separately and run the risk of not getting one of the two thus messing up my plans of uber unitdom? Or, can I roll for uber unit as a single entity, running the risk of them not showing up this turn or hoping they BOTH show up together? Each outcome will be advantageous to one or the other players, so which one is rues legal?

BRB pg. 94 ".....if any of his IC's left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for and arrive together....."

[Dooley]

Tnx that BRB is so damn B its sometimes hard to remember that alot of these questions can be answered if one looks them up. However, its much more fun to ask and see what happens!

[Jwolf]

While there is certainly a valid RAW argument for IC's not being able to begin the game in a vehicle with a squad, I have never heard of anyone actually playing the game that way, and I doubt seriously that any TO would have it played that way. One might be able to hoodwink some volunteering judge into such a ruling - if your opponent does so, escalate it a senior judge or TO. If you're the hoodwinker, please feel free to be ashamed of yourself.

[Culven]

. . .under the Dawn of War deployment, the example states
" In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an inderpendant character from his HQ, joining the unit embarked in the transport. Finally, player A deploys his infiltrating unit."
This example clearly states that the inderpentant character joined the unit and was a part of it before the a previously mentioned "Start the game!" point in time. Also, he would have to count as part of that unit before "Start the game!" as indicated in the example otherwise he would not be able to embark in the transport at all as it would already be occupied by a different unit.
There are multiple examples in the rulebook which indicate that an IC is supposed to be able to join a unit while Deploying Forces. This is the widely accepted RaI, and hence GaP (at least I have never seen anyone actually try to play it otherwise), but the writers seem to have forgotten to actually write the rules to permit the IC to do so.

[The Mystic]

Well here is the relevant rule to the example:

"Alternatively an inderpendent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

Now if we take "Start the game!" as the beginning of the game as you state then "already" would indicate that the IC has been deployed with the unit and is part of that unit so begins the game as such. The example confirms that as the case.

Would you agree?

[Jwolf]

We all agree it should mean that. But the RAW argument that it doesn't mean that is valid - not necessarily correct, but valid.

[Nabterayl]

Which takes us back to this post (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=56863&postcount=12). The rulebook does not state that ICs may join units at the beginning of the game. It states that, sometime prior to the beginning of the game, ICs can join units, by being deployed in coherency with them.

If you focus on "by being deployed in coherency with them" then you have a problem, at least according to the normal meaning of "deploy." But as you, I, and others have pointed out, there's good reason to think that ICs join prior to deployment, in which case "by being deployed in coherency with them" is necessary to specify that units so joined must still be in coherency (otherwise, RAW would permit an IC to be joined to a unit that was on the other side of the board).

[Culven]

Thanks for posting that link, Nabterayl, now we don't need to re-type the circular arguement. ;)


Well here is the relevant rule to the example:
"Alternatively an inderpendent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."
Now if we take "Start the game!" as the beginning of the game as you state then "already" would indicate that the IC has been deployed with the unit and is part of that unit so begins the game as such. The example confirms that as the case.
But we are only told that by the Start the Game! point in time, the IC is already part of the unit. We still don't know when that happened. Was it as the models were pulled out of their cases? Was it during deployment as soon as the IC and Unit were both on the table? Was it during the Scout moves? We don't know. All we know is that at the time the game begins, the IC is joined to the unit.

[AirHorse]

The rule is written properly guys, clearly the big snazzy character doesnt deploy with the rest of the unit, dont be rediculous!

He waits for the peons to line up while he finishes off his tea and biscuits in the command tent. Then when they are all done he stroles around the assembled troops giving out various bits of motivational chatter, signs some autographs or gives that nob who looks like hes eyein up his spot as warboss a blackeye to help him get killed until he gets to his chosen unit at which points he jumps inside to use them as a meat shield.

And of course since he is a man(or woman, or ork...or thing) of class he does it all in perfect time so as to be in position right for kick off! :)

[The Mystic]

But we are only told that by the Start the Game! point in time, the IC is already part of the unit. We still don't know when that happened. Was it as the models were pulled out of their cases? Was it during deployment as soon as the IC and Unit were both on the table? Was it during the Scout moves? We don't know. All we know is that at the time the game begins, the IC is joined to the unit.

We are told exactly when this happens.

In the example it clearly states that the IC joins the unit during deployment. Also from the example we can conclude that from the point of deployment the IC is part of that unit by the fact that it is able to embark in the transport despite it already being occupied by a said unit. This would only be able to occur if the IC was counted as part of the unit when deployed before the "Start of game!" point in time.

As there is no rule for units joining IC's this conclusion would also confirms that the IC only becomes part of the unit during deployment and not before. In the example of Shrike for instance, Shrike can only join and become part of a unit that is deployed. Because of this his infiltrate special rule would not carry over and affect the unit.