SM Chapters: Distribution/Demography

[Dlatrex]

Ok mates, I have no idea if anyone else would find this interesting, but I wanted to visualize what the current makeup of the Adeptus Astartes (i.e. the ~1000 chapters) and how they relate to their parent legions ::Edit:: Geneseed. That led to combing lexicanum and making this graphic, with each "box" representing the roughly 1000 marines of a codex chapter.

Some points to interpret. The 9 chapters of the first founding are across the top, along with the Grey Knights which were being organized prior to the second founding.


Successors are shown in their parent chapter's colors.
For the "peach" colored chapters I could not find their parentage.
The 5th edition SM codex seems to say that ~60% of the successors are descended from the Ultramarines, so a large fraction of the squares are colored light blue and just labeled "UM Successor"



A bunch of the chapters seem to have been extinguished or disbanded, and these are listed below the block of 1,000,000 marines.

I am far from an expert on all of these chapter's histories (for instance I do not know how large the Wolf Brothers may have been)
Comments and corrections are welcome!

:cool:

Edit: V2.0 included. Original here https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8570/16725428451_d90c632fe6_k.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7645/16598370240_f9853f4177_o.jpg

[David Crossley]

In terms of corrections off the top of my head - the Scythes of the Emperor are an Ultramarine successor, and you've Black Dragons, White Templars & Lamenters listed twice, the Star Phantoms are missing too, they'll either be a peach chapter or Dark Angel successor depending on how much you listen to 1D4Chan.

It's also implied in the last codex that reports of the Black Consuls demise might have been exaggerated, though that is more of a judgement call as to where they belong, it's not exactly incorrect for them to be in the extinct section as the fluff stands.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Great graphic, lovely to see that info represented in one place.

Also, there are the Exorcists out there, descendants of the Grey Knights.

[Aaron Hunt]

There is some evidence that the Carcharodon were formed pre-codex and were separated from the Raven Guard legion shortly after Corax was introduced to his Legion. A Nomad-predation fleet of Terran born warriors led by the acting Legion master were deployed prior to the Horus Heresy. Many had been closely involved with the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and their aggressive manner reminded the Primarch of his experiences prior to rejoining the Legion. Contact was never made even after the Drop site massacre.

The possibility exists that the Carcharodon fleet was only partially represented during the Badab war, and their true numbers could easily be far in excess of the Codex-Approved limit of 1000 marines. They also appear to be unique in that their formation is NOT as a founding legion, but nor is it as a proper chapter.

[Haighus]

That is a really cool table :) Several of the peach ones can be strongly inferred to be a descendent of a parent Chapter (Hospitallers probably Imperial Fists for example), which is interesting to see.

The Minotaurs are also missing (strongly implied that they may be created from traitor geneseed, I personally suspect Iron Warrior). Invaders also listed twice.

Edit: Sons of Orar are listed twice.


Relating to Soul Drinkers:

SPOILER!
















Soul Drinkers should be in extinct Chapters technically, the last of them were wiped out fighting on board the Phalanx.

[Chris*ta]

Space Wolves are far too large, right? If I recall correctly, the previous Codex list them at 12 brotherhoods, the largest of which was less than/around 200 men?


Also, there are the Exorcists out there, descendants of the Grey Knights.

I didn't think the Exorcists parent Chapter was established in canon?

[Aaron LeClair]

Space Wolves are far too large, right? If I recall correctly, the previous Codex list them at 12 brotherhoods, the largest of which was less than/around 200 men?

I didn't think the Exorcists parent Chapter was established in canon?


1. Space wolves I thought fall between 1000 to 3000 depending where you look in their history. Side note the Wolf Brothers wouldn't have been larger than 1000ish marines due to the fact that they where made to be a successor.

2. and as far as I read you are correct in a way. I don't think it is stated where their Gene seed is taken from(most likely DA or UM, maybe both?) but the GK where/are the chapter that trained and over watched their creation. So they are spiritual successor chapter to the GKs, big part due to the fact they are demon hunters also like the GKs.



Edit: Also to the maker of the chapter list, I would give most chapters a few blank spots under each. Their successor are not limited to what was made after the HH. Salamanders and Space Wolves being the only chapters without any successors, Besides what is rumored for the Salamanders(which you have listed under them).

[Haighus]

I think the maker has put each Great Company at Chapter strength. As for the size of the Wolf Brothers, IIRC, they were fully half the Space Wolves at the time, and it went wrong, and the Chapter was never split again.

The Salamanders had no successors shortly after the Heresy due to their mauling at Isstvan, but there is nothing stopping them creating successors later in the Imperium's history, provided they built up enough geneseed- I think the two listed there are not just rumoured, but stated as being sucessors.

EDIT: They are just rumoured, although it stands to reason that there would be later successors. Especially seeing as one Marine produces enough geneseed to make 2 Marines eventually.

[Katharon]

and how they relate to their parent legions.

Well, to put it bluntly, they don't. The legions have been disbanded for almost over 10,000 years now. Attachment to legion means next to nothing. What matters more is the genetic legacy of the gene-seed. It's hard, I know, to differentiate in light of the huge popularity of the legions and the HH series; but in the modern setting of 40K, the legions mean basically nothing.


That said, it's a fun chart. Nice job on it. Not sure of your end point and/or application of it, but it's interesting none the less.

[Dlatrex]

Thanks for all the error checking, and praise guys! I'll make a version that kills the duplications, and adds in the missing chapters.


Well, to put it bluntly, they don't. The legions have been disbanded for almost over 10,000 years now. Attachment to legion means next to nothing. What matters more is the genetic legacy of the gene-seed.

Ah. You are of course correct. I was more interested in showing the ‘gene pedigree’ of a given modern chapter, rather than what practices they may execute on the battle field. The coloring on the chart should vaguly tell us what fraction of the marines might experience the red thirst, or come out of creation with unusually black skin…


That said, it's a fun chart. Nice job on it. Not sure of your end point and/or application of it, but it's interesting none the less.

Thanks! This is certainly more of a ‘create this now!’ rather than ‘what will this serve?’ sort of project. Just the way my brain happens to arrange data.


…. Star Phantoms are missing too, they'll either be a peach chapter or Dark Angel successor depending on how much you listen to 1D4Chan.

Yeah, I have not heard of them at all; do we know where they are referenced especially with connections to the DA.s? Lexi does have them, but just lists their parentage as Unknown.


Great graphic, lovely to see that info represented in one place.

Also, there are the Exorcists out there, descendants of the Grey Knights.

Thanks! Wow. I had not read up on the background of the exocrists at all. I was unaware about the Grey Knights having any derivatives!



There is some evidence that the Carcharodon were formed pre-codex and were separated from the Raven Guard legion shortly after Corax was introduced to his Legion. A Nomad-predation fleet of Terran born warriors led by the acting Legion master were deployed prior to the Horus Heresy. Many had been closely involved with the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and their aggressive manner reminded the Primarch of his experiences prior to rejoining the Legion. Contact was never made even after the Drop site massacre.

The possibility exists that the Carcharodon fleet was only partially represented during the Badab war, and their true numbers could easily be far in excess of the Codex-Approved limit of 1000 marines. They also appear to be unique in that their formation is NOT as a founding legion, but nor is it as a proper chapter.

The sharks are most cool. I could not find reference to the fact that they have a larger than codex standing force (I do not have any Badab Books, and Lexicanum just says they are Codex Organized). If you have some sense that they are above 1,000 marines I’m happy to look at it and see if they need to be stretched…



Space Wolves are far too large, right? If I recall correctly, the previous Codex list them at 12 brotherhoods, the largest of which was less than/around 200 men?



1. Space wolves I thought fall between 1000 to 3000 depending where you look in their history. Side note the Wolf Brothers wouldn't have been larger than 1000ish marines due to the fact that they where made to be a successor.

Edit: Also to the maker of the chapter list, I would give most chapters a few blank spots under each.

I think the maker has put each Great Company at Chapter strength. As for the size of the Wolf Brothers, IIRC, they were fully half the Space Wolves at the time, and it went wrong, and the Chapter was never split again.

Am…am I The Maker? :eek: Lol. A fun title, but just Dlatrex if you please. =)
I will have to defer to my scruffier Fenris-centric brothers as to the size of the Space Wolves. As illustrated on the chart, I estimated each great company to be approximately chapter sized (i.e. 1000 marines) which may unsubstantiated. Lexicannum merely says that each great company is a functional independent army. Would 200 astartes prove sufficient?

This question did spring to mind, coming off of the other thread discussing the re-formation of the original legions. In short I do not know how large the current space wolves number.

Also as to leaving ‘blank spaces’ I am happy to do so, but only when we have some idea of how many might be these so called ‘unnamed’ successors. I have no doubts that there are a couple more derivatives of the Iron Hands that have not been listed, but I have no way of knowing how many they might be. The exception is the UM, which of course has been stated to have this roughly 60% fraction of the successors using their gene seed.

[TB0N3]

Amazing job. You should apply for a position in the Administratum.
PS. In the extinct section, you should add the Lions Sable (Dark Angels), who got Cypher'd

[Tyrsday]

The Sons of Orar are listed somewhere as a second founding Ultramarine successor, named after their first chapter master who was a famous praetorian of the legion. I'll try and source that for you.

As far as the size of the Wolves and the Templars go, the Rout is between 2-3k Wolves at any given time. There are 12 Great Companies, each acting as independently as a chapter, but lacking the size, the smallest of which is still 100 marines. The average size is around 150 with Ragnar Blackmane having the largest standard company of 200 and Logan Grimnar's Company is a match for his plus all the Wolf and Rune Priests as well as the Dreadnoughts.

Great Companies are listed in the first Betrayal as being roughly chapter size at the time of the Heresy, which would have made the Wolves roughly 10-12k at the time of Succession and having been whittled down to the size they are today. Being staunchly as anti-authoritarian as they are, they only split their legion once, giving the Wolf Brothers half of the legion's assets. Assuming then that there weren't originally 25 Great Companies and they just took half of the legion during the split, that puts the Wolves and Brothers between 4-6k marines each, allowing for casualties, at the time of the second founding.

Not even High Marshall Helsbrecht knows how many Black Templar there are. The third edition codex or some later source estimated that the various crusades had a strength of 5-6k marines.

[Charon]

Souldrinkers
*spoiler*








They are not an Imperial Fist successor chapter. Origins unknown. Source: Hellforged

[Mengel Miniatures]

While I'm honored that my Sons of Dorn are listed as an official descendant of the Imperial Fists they are actually my own Chapter and not a creation of GW. They were in a White Dwarf once because they won the Create a Chapter contest that GW ran about a decade ago. They had a pic of one of my minis and my fluff I had written for them printed in the magazine, don't know if that makes them official though.

Again, thanks for including them though :)

[cdabbott]

Just to confirm Space wolves for everyone.

Rather than being made up of 10 companies of 100 Astartes each, the Space Wolves consist of 12 Great Companies which contain Astartes of varying and often irregular strengths. They are anywhere between 100 and 200 SW each. Unlike other Adeptus Astartes orders of battle, exact numbers cannot be given, due to the constantly shifting and irregular numbers that are a result of the Space Wolves' unique traditions and way of war.

However Rangers current full company is given so we can see that his company has Ragnar and 6 Wolf Guard, 50 Blood Claws, 35 Swift Claws, 56 Grey Hunters, 20 Wolf Scouts, 17 Long Fangs, 3 Lone Wolfs = 158 Take this as the average your looking at around an average of 1872 for the chapter not including tanks, transports or Priests, dreadnoughts etc who reside with the Great Wolf.

[Dlatrex]

That... is just spectacular mate! You can thank Leixcanum for the inclusion of Sons of Dorn in 'official' lists of chapters. Given that GW was happy enough to award you the showcase, I am inclined to leave them in the list. =)

That said, I will probably come up with some graphic marker denoting chapters of disputed heritage.

Disputed
Star Phantoms (DA)
Exorcists (GK)
Carcharodons (RG)
Hospitallers (IF)
Minotaurs (Traitorous)
Black Dragons (Sal)
Storm Giants (Sal)


Any others to add, or challenge?

[BrianDavion]

Is there any actual EVIDANCE the Exocists are sucessors to the Grey Knights? because right now the FACTs don't seem to particularly add up. Grey Knights are, by virtue of their gene seed, immune to geneseed, highly resistant to the corruption of Chaos. I've always surmised the Exortionists where an attempt by the Inqusition to create a chapter just as effective as the Grey Knights, but less reliant on special geneseed.

[Maldclxvi]

Angels Penatent are a Dark Angels successor chapter. I created them and they were a bone thrown to me by GW for the number of battle reports I posted in the 13th Black Crusade campaign.

[John Bower]

FYI, Angels Porphyr are descendants of the Blood Angels. Great to see someone doing a list though. Nice job.

[Chris*ta]

Am…am I The Maker? :eek: Lol. A fun title, but just Dlatrex if you please. =)

Sounds like you just got a promotion ;)


I will have to defer to my scruffier Fenris-centric brothers as to the size of the Space Wolves.
I recall reading in WD (when the previous Codex came out) that whatsisname -- the main SW special character -- commanded the largest company at around 200 men. I have a pretty clear recollection of that number, even if other details escape me :p



As illustrated on the chart, I estimated each great company to be approximately chapter sized (i.e. 1000 marines) which may unsubstantiated. Lexicannum merely says that each great company is a functional independent army. Would 200 astartes prove sufficient?


Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops.

:p


The Sons of Orar are listed somewhere as a second founding Ultramarine successor, named after their first chapter master who was a famous praetorian of the legion. I'll try and source that for you.

I'd be interested in that source. The previous Codex said that although they revere Orar, the details of their founding were lost to them.

[Dlatrex]

So it sounds like our Wulfen experts are suggesting great companies from 100-200 in strength (I've read wonderful treatises dispelling the myth that a codex chapter is "not ONE more than 1,000 astartes, but for the sake of this chart and discussion we'll simplify a box to be 'chapter sized ~ 1000astartes), and thus their standing force should be around 2,000 wolves altogether. I'll reduce them a bit, but for reasons discussed before, will live the size box of the extinct wolf-brothers, since they likely would have been quite a bit larger, when they were active.

Has anyone heard of the "Shadow Crows"? Someone on facebook mentioned them and successors, but I cannot find a reference to them online.

Also, are the Crimson Castellans discussed in any detail in Iyanden: A Codex: Eldar Supplement? I cannot figure out if they are extinct, or possibly all turned traitor?

[Dlatrex]

Ok here is V2.0. I tried to make it look a little bit more like an infographic =P


Deleted Duplicates
Listed Exorcists, Star Phantoms, Hospitallers, Skull Bearers, Carcharodons, Minotaurs, Black Dragons, and Storm Giants as of disputed heritage.
Reduced standing force of The Route
Killed off the Dragon Lords



https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7645/16598370240_f9853f4177_o.jpg

[alphariusomegon20]

Ok here is V2.0. I tried to make it look a little bit more like an infographic =P


Deleted Duplicates
Listed Exorcists, Star Phantoms, Hospitallers, Skull Bearers, Carcharodons, Minotaurs, Black Dragons, and Storm Giants as of disputed heritage.
Reduced standing force of The Route
Killed off the Dragon Lords



https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7645/16598370240_f9853f4177_o.jpg


Wasn't the Black Dragons confirmed as a Sally Successor in Nick Kyme's books? Black Library is pretty canon.

And IIRC, most of those Unknowns are actually UM seed.


Edit: now that I think of it, I believe the Storm Giants were confirmed in the Sally series also.

[Beaviz81]

So it sounds like our Wulfen experts are suggesting great companies from 100-200 in strength (I've read wonderful treatises dispelling the myth that a codex chapter is "not ONE more than 1,000 astartes, but for the sake of this chart and discussion we'll simplify a box to be 'chapter sized ~ 1000astartes), and thus their standing force should be around 2,000 wolves altogether. I'll reduce them a bit, but for reasons discussed before, will live the size box of the extinct wolf-brothers, since they likely would have been quite a bit larger, when they were active.

Has anyone heard of the "Shadow Crows"? Someone on facebook mentioned them and successors, but I cannot find a reference to them online.

Also, are the Crimson Castellans discussed in any detail in Iyanden: A Codex: Eldar Supplement? I cannot figure out if they are extinct, or possibly all turned traitor?

The Ultramarines actually have slightly more than 1000 SM. I think the number was 1063, but I'm not entirely certain about that.

The Space Wolves depends on how you see the wording veteran warriors. Either they have less than 187 SW per Great company with the exception of Ragnar and Logan or thats the numbers of Wolf Guards. And there were like 13.000 SW left when Russ split the legion into Great Companies on the surface agreeing with Guilliman.