LOS and skimmers

[Weafwolf]

I played a game with a friend last night. I shot at three wyches who were entirely visible to my dreadnought. However, two of the wyches were on the other side of the nose of a Raider. The nose of the Raider did not block line of sight at all, but two of the three wyches were sort of on the other side of the raider (one was actually kind of underneath the Raider, but past the centerline). Lets say for the sake of argument that two of the three wyches were on the other side of the Raider, but entirely visible. Would they get a cover save?

Weaf

[BuFFo]

No.

[Dooley]

TRUE LOS! and the Raider is not area terrain! I believe the rules for cover saves cover this quite clearly!

[Weafwolf]

In fairness, his argument was that there was an intervening unit (the Raider) in the same way that an independent character might get a cover save because of a unit in front of him, even if he was completely visible between models. I thought that vehicles basically follow true LOS. My only real doubt was that I seem to remember that troops can no longer hide behind skimmers (like Tau transports and Necron Mololiths) and shoot "under" them the way they could in 4th ed. If he can never shoot under his own skimmers, he might be able to claim cover. The problem with the Raider is that it is higher than many models, unlike with skimmers that more clearly block LOS.

[Nabterayl]

I think the confusion related to the fact that according to page 22, models count as "in cover" even if they can be fully seen, if the line of sight passes between models of an intervening unit. The question really is whether a line of sight that passes under a unit counts as passing "through" it. It's not a totally unreasonable question to ask.

I still agree that the wyches are not in cover, though, and here's why:

Page 22 explicitly points out that the line of sight has to pass through the intervening unit; if it passes over the intervening unit, it does not count. I think it's reasonable to assume that the same is true for line of sight that passes under the intervening unit. Indeed, consider a simpler example, where squad A is seen through the arch of a bridge upon which squad B stands. Even though the line of sight passes under squad B, is it not perfectly clear that squad A is not in cover?

[Tynskel]

If you were draw a line from the target weapon to the target model, and at any point the line hit the skimmer, then yes you get a cover save.

If not, then no, you were not shooting 'through' the unit.

If the Skimmer was a squadron, and you were shooting through the coherency of the squadron of skimmers- then yes, you get a cover save. Of course this is for non-vehicle units.

That's right kids, mount your skimmers on different height stands!

[Dooley]

Well I think that just about settles it.

The Skimmer does not provide cover because it is not a squad. And true LOS wins out!

[BuFFo]

The Skimmer does not provide cover because it is not a squad.

This is not true, kind sir.

Why? Because he said this;


Lets say for the sake of argument that two of the three wyches were on the other side of the Raider, but entirely visible.

That is why this is a cut and dry case as to why they don't get a cover save.

Now, lets say the models behind the skimmer had 50% or more LOS drawn to them blocked by the skimmer, i.e. you could not see the top half of the models in the unit, then yes, the unit would get a cover save from being behind the skimmer.

[Dooley]

That is true however, he stated that they were visible! So I assumed that they were not partially visible and thusly were not afforded a cover save. I agree that if half of them were hidden then yes but it you could see all of it then no. Conversely If he shot between a squad of Raiders (which I dont think you can do) then they would get a cover save. But thats not what we are arguing over. The fact is if you can see em you can blast em. Dude man should have put his raiders on the ground or at least made sure they were floating at eldar waist height!

[gcsmith]

50% is only needed for Monstrous creatures

[Culven]

50% is only needed for Monstrous creatures
50% actual coverage is needed for a Monsterous Creature model to be consided in cover (this is also true for Vehicles). However, for a Unit, any Unit, including an MC or Vehicle Unit to be permitted a Cover Save, then 50% of the models in the Unit must be considered in cover.