The Reasons Players Complain

[DrBored]

Hello, Dr. Bored here, for something that hopefully will bring conversations more in line. My goal is for people to understand each other a little better going forward.

Let's say you hear someone complaining about a dress that you like. The dress is a lovely shade of blue and has a unique hem along the skirt. This complainer says the dress is ugly and uncoordinated. If you heard that in person, you'd probably just pass on by, your mood dimmed a little that someone dare insult that dress you like. On the Internet however, people seem just as likely to pounce upon a complainer as they are to defend them, and rage wars begin...

...when at the end of the day, it's all OPINION.

Or is it that simple?

I'm going to use two complaints that keep coming up. You can look around the forums, and in most posts, by the second page people have stopped talking about the original topic, and started complaining about something else entirely. Why is that? Why do these complaints keep coming up? Why won't the complainers just go away for a while and focus on something that makes them happy, instead of moaning about things that don't?

Let's start with one very persistent one, despite it's age...

Sisters of Battle (Adeptus Sororitas) Still Don't Have a Proper Codex!

Just about any time news comes up about a new faction or codex being released, you'll see someone post something like...
"And still no Sisters..."
"Where are the Sisters of Battle?"
"Guess we can push the Sisters release back another year..."

To understand why these players can't get over themselves, you have to understand a little aspect about gambling.

Yes. GAMBLING. That's not to say that Sisters of Battle players are addicts to gambling, but rather victims of a similar system that, in many cases, they trick THEMSELVES into believing! Let's break it down.

The common mode of thought currently is that Games Workshop is on the road to completing all of the Codices in their range, moving everything to hardback, and moving all metal and finecast to plastic. In the beginning of 6th edition, when Dark Angels and Chaos Marines got their hardback Codices, and we saw a similar trend in Fantasy, the conclusions were made almost immediately that everything would be moving to hardback. When the Stormtroopers (Militarum Tempestus) came out as a small 'mini-dex', hope rose that even those tiny aspects of 40k lore would get their own hardback attention! Fast forward to now, where Blood Angels, Space Wolves, even Harlequins have Codices and rumors of a new 40k force that hasn't been seen since the Rogue Trader days is getting their own Codex, Adeptus Mechanicus, and you create the recipe for frenzied hope.

You see, there's an aspect of gambling that keeps people interested. It's called a 'Variable-Ratio Schedule' - http://psychology.about.com/od/vindex/g/def_variablerat.htm
When gambling, you never really know when or how much you're going to win, and machines and systems are often set up that give you a little bit at a time to keep you feeling like you're 'winning'. Not only that, but things like slot machines will make big obnoxious sounds and have bright flashing lights accompanying even small wins, while losses will be a quiet, short, soft sound that are designed so you'll barely notice. - http://www.scientificpsychic.com/workbook/gambling.html

What does that sound like to you? Let's see.. A rumor comes out that Sisters of Battle are coming... there's a mad rush to confirm the rumors, with a topic exploding in hope and speculation.. There's a system where, clearly, eventually, a Codex for Sisters will come out.. we just have to wait another month, another two months, just a little while longer, and we'll get our Codex... The exploding forum topics? Those are the flashing lights. The unpredictable release schedule from GW? That's our Variable-Release Schedule. The 'promised' reward? A proper Adeptus Sororitas Codex.

It's unfortunate, but Sisters of Battle players and speculators tend to do it to themselves. It's not completely their (tbh, our, I'm in the group too) fault. We're set up with rumors that pan out false, and every Codex that releases we feel like we're getting closer and closer to our 'big win', just like how a gambler feels like they'll get closer and closer to a big payout if they just put in two more tokens, or five more dollars, or do three more pulls on the slot machine. It's psychology at its worst, and it's at least one of the reasons that Sisters of Battle players can't stop complaining that they don't have a Codex yet.

That said, let's go on to one that, even after a couple iterations of new Codices, keeps coming up, ever since 3.5...

The Chaos Space Marine Codex Sucks!

How many times have you seen this on a forum? The topic sometimes isn't at all about Chaos Marines, yet somehow a Chaos player comes in to complain that their Codex is garbage and that they get treated like crap.

Yet, Chaos Marines made it to the top 8 at the 2015 Las Vegas Open! - https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/02/22/lvo-40k-championships-finals-results-updating/

How could they have gotten that far if their Codex is so bad? Not even NECRONS made it that far! Why won't Chaos Marine players shut up about their Codex being so bad when there are clearly winning combinations?

I'm going to propose that the reason Chaos Marine players are having such a hard time points at the power of 'Expectation'. It's defined as "the act or state of looking forward or anticipating." - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/expectation?s=t - It may seem obvious at this point. "Well of course, their expectations are shattered, so therefore they're disappointed," but there's a lot more to it, and I encourage readers to give the following article by Bradley Foster on Expectations a glance for more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bradley-foster/managing-expectations_b_3417425.html

You see, it's easy as an outsider to look at an issue and dismiss an overreacting person as being dramatic, or needing to get over themselves, but the fact of the matter is that expectations can affect a person's happiness, creating someone bitter at the state of things. Expectations can have an impact on relationships, work productivity, and pretty much anything that they're applied to. It's easy to expect that your microwave will cook your pizza in five minutes, and when it does, you're happy, right? What if it doesn't? Your microwave is broken, your pizza is ruined! Now you have to get a new microwave, or fix the one you have, and that just creates all sorts of stress.

Yes, we're talking about a game here, not broken appliances, but microwaves can be bought for as little as $45.00 USD, OR LESS. - http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sunbeam-0.7-CuFt-700-Watt-Microwave-Oven-SGDJ701-White/28862163
Compare that to the price of a box of Chaos Mutilators, a grand $52.00 USD! - http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Mutilators

A microwave that doesn't work... a unit that doesn't work... We invest in these products with our hard-earned cash EXPECTING them to work. You see a nice microwave, it looks clean, the advertisements are good, so you expect it to work. You look at a unit in a Codex that looks neat, has a lot of things you like, fits your playstyle, and you expect it to work. What happens when it doesn't? Bitterness, anger, frustration, stress.

It would be easier if we were talking about a game that didn't cost so much, that didn't take so many dollars or yen or euros or pesos to invest into. We buy these big expensive kits expecting that they'll be a great addition to our army, and when they don't perform like we expect game after game after game, we invest even more to try to build our army around them to make them work, and, lo and behold, they still don't.

But this can be applied to pretty much every unit that doesn't work in the game, so why are Chaos players more bitter than the rest?

Honestly, they put too much faith into Games Workshop. They expect GW to create a set of rules that will allow them to play, competitively, their Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, OR Tzeentch army. They expected that they could make their Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons army work, because why wouldn't it? When you make rules for something, it should be balanced and effective, right? Sadly, it's not.

Remember the top 8 Chaos Marine player? Players like that don't pay any mind to fluff or what they 'expect' to win. They make their winning combos out of what they have practiced to be effective, and a lot of times, the armies that go to tournaments look NOTHING like fluff armies. They are weird amalgamations of units, spammed, MSU, or otherwise that are min-maxxed or tailored to specific rules or strategies to make them as effective and efficient as they can possibly be. I have a feeling that the Chaos Space Marine/Chaos Daemons list that got so high at the LVO didn't have Thousand Sons, or Mutilators. It probably had a Heldrake or two, and probably had some combination of Bikes and Spawn, and maybe even some Mark of Nurgle Obliterators. We'll see when the list comes out, but I bet it won't look anything like any Chaos Player that has read even a little bit of fluff would expect out of a Chaos Space Marine force.

That's one of the big reasons that Chaos Marine players get hit hard by this effect over others. Space Marines can make their force 'fluffy' just by taking a Chapter Tactic that unifies their whole army, so no matter what units they take, it still looks consistent. Chaos Marine players have to pick out the best of their army to make a force that works competitively, and because of the weird range that Chaos Marines has become, from dinobots to psuedo-demons, to god-specific cult troops, it's hard to really believe that some of these competitive forces would really ever happen in the 40k verse.

At the end of the day, yeah, it's easy to tell Chaos Marine players to get over themselves, but when they've spent hundreds of dollars buying, dozens of hours building, and even more hours painting up their awesome Thousand Sons - http://home.cogeco.ca/~dweldon8/Mini%20Pics/Thousand%20Sons/halfsquad1.jpg - it's a little easier to understand why they're so bent out of shape that they don't work on the table the way they'd EXPECT.

At the very least, I hope that this article helps people to understand each other, and helps the complainers to understand themselves as well. In a big way, I'm still a big complainer when it comes to these two topics, and I'm trying to better myself in order to find what makes me happy, and to improve as an artist, both in miniature painting and in my day job as well. I hope you had fun reading, and remember, don't just bash and rage and flame, but try to understand each other as well. There are a lot of people that have a lot of reasons to be unhappy out there, and I'd like to think that the hobby, or at the very least the community around it, shouldn't be another of those reasons.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Great post, especially the rumours part.

[daboarder]

I'd like to add that the bitterness is so much worse in chaos players because GW has used the very structure that could give us what we want time and time again when they release the Codex constrained space marine book with all the bells and whistles to play every unique snowflake micro variant they want. Couple that with a septic community that will regurgitate excuses and its a recipe for hatred.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

On chaos marines - I always assumed the main reason most people aren't happy is because there isn't really much focus on the legions, and it's kind of understandable especially when you look at what forge world are doing with the heresy. Not to mention the recent SM codex seems to have a lot of stuff like traits to theme specific chapters, and I figured the CSM players wanted stuff like that. Maybe I'm wrong though - but I think a simple fix would be to make each of the 4 cult plastic kits similar to the grey knights ones in that they can make 3-4 different units, that would give the cult legion players a lot of variety - the non god-alligned ones seem mostly well represented model-wise (allthough could possibly do with some special rules)

[daboarder]

On chaos marines - I always assumed the main reason most people aren't happy is because there isn't really much focus on the legions, and it's kind of understandable especially when you look at what forge world are doing with the heresy. Not to mention the recent SM codex seems to have a lot of stuff like traits to theme specific chapters, and I figured the CSM players wanted stuff like that. Maybe I'm wrong though - but I think a simple fix would be to make each of the 4 cult plastic kits similar to the grey knights ones in that they can make 3-4 different units, that would give the cult legion players a lot of variety - the non god-alligned ones seem mostly well represented model-wise (allthough could possibly do with some special rules)

except you'd still have the stupid disconnects like the fact that your plague marines loose all of papa nurgles love when they bolt on terminator plate....etc

[DrBored]

There are a lot of individual reasons why Chaos players are unhappy about the Codex, but again, I feel that they all fall under the realm of what the players expected to work versus what actually happened.

Really, it started with the 4th edition codex. People expected an even better version of 3.5, but what they got was just a huge disappointment.

[daboarder]

Really, it started with the 4th edition codex. People expected an even better version of 3.5, but what they got was just a huge disappointment.

I think its more accurate to say we expected a "cleaner" version of 3.5, one that toned down the abusability but left the flavour and army variabillity. instead we got the first 3rd ed codex (a book so crap they had to rush out 3.5 and relegated us to "spikey crap marines") and have been stuck with the same core since

[Erik Setzer]

Well, the CSM codex *can* win, especially if you're mixing in Daemons, but it requires using certain tricks. That's what people are mostly upset about, you have to go pretty much the same route, and that's boring. It'd be nice to be able to win with some variety.

The guy brought Daemon allies, though, so you can't use him as an example that CSM alone is super-competitive, and he apparently got curbstomped by Eldar, who went on further (and lost to Tyranids... probably a STAFH, which is a very good way to build a Tyranid army, but doesn't mesh well with all those people who built assault bugs because that's what the fluff describes).

[Clockwork]

Nice job ignoring that the previous two times we've seen rumors for Sisters (during 5th and 6th) saying there was a codex update we got one. It wasn't an actual physical book, but it was an update. It's only this batch as of this year that the rumors for a rules update didn't pan out.

The only rumors we actually get screwed on are models, and if you look close Sisters players don't take those seriously and more want to confirm they're fake so they can move on with their lives.

[Auticus]

The chaos complaining is often as varied as the chaos factions themselves but the two that stand out are covered already:

#1 - there is no obviously OP combination with the CSM codex. There are no broken grav guns, no abuseable wave serpent, no wraith knight, nothing that really stands out as something that can play itself while the player sucks down cheetohs and rinses it down with mountain dew and draws breath.

#2 - legion rules. This is a two headed issue. A) no legion rules when marines got chapter rules so "its not fair". B) if legion rules get introduced, if none of them are OP (really strong) like the space marines can get their hands on then also will lead to people being upset.

[Path Walker]

The rules allow you to make Legions though, its just they're not super competitive. Formations are the answer, and its stuff we're going to see more of as we go along, new detachments and formations that increase the utility of the godsworn units, formations could even stick to the holy numbers in squads, we've seen something like that with the Kharn one

[Auticus]

That they are not super competitive is the root of a lot of complaining.

[Mr Mystery]

3.5 spoiled Chaos rotten. Beardy units up the wazoo, perks with no downsides (Iron Warriors anyone?). Loads of variety. Then it was toned down and taken away, and in the same way Cats have never forgotten they used be worshipped as Gods, Chaos players remember - even if they weren't around for the actual book.

The trouble with the current Chaos Codex is that it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, and has managed to add that up to 'neither'.

It's got some fun units, interesting units, hard units, and 'erm...' units. But overall, it just doesn't quite add up to a compelling army in itself. If you want to run a monotheistic list, there's not exactly a reward for doing so.

Compare to the loyalist Chapters. Each Codex X Marines offers up a different play style from the others, to the degree you couldn't really get away with squidging them all into a unified Codex. You know what you would get if you tried that? The Chaos Codex.

So yes, Chaos does need some work. And done well, it's amazing - look at the Renegade list in IA13. Absolute masterpiece of list writing. Whilst it can seem overwhelming to someone with no clear vision of their own take of Renegades, it doesn't really contrain anyone, and you can knock up pretty much any iteration of Lost and The Damned that you want. Even really, really old stuff - like Chaos Trolls and Chaos Beastmen can be done. But the current Chaos Codex is just a little too bland. Yes, it has flavour inside it, but nothing you can really pile together to make a tasty Legion Sandwich.

Give Chaos what it needs - monotheistic Codecies. One for each of the big four. The Legions can be covered with those. Khorne Bersekers as Troops, but World Eaters for Elites. That sort of thing (well, that's my take anyway)

[Erik Setzer]

Ah, I remember the old 3.5 Iron Warriors. My dad used that army because it was strong and didn't have to move much (arthritis). Other people used it because it was strong. It was nasty. And then I took a 3rd edition Ork army and beat three of them in a row for the only tournament win I've ever gotten. Of course, I threw typical tactics out the window and just went insane in a way the opposing players couldn't figure out, and Orks in assault were a lot nastier in 3rd edition.

There was also a Nurgle build that made rounds at local tournaments. I can't remember the various versions of it, but IIRC, my dad's was something like: GUCO, Daemon Prince tooled up, Land Raider, Predator with lascannons, Plague Marines with multiple melta or plasma and Infiltrate, multiple units of Plaguebearers, all at seven strong (or 14 for Plaguebearers) to get Nurgle bonuses. Over 50% of the points were in four models, but those models were tough to kill and could stomp things. (Army looked beautiful, too. I'd say I'm biased, but it won painting awards in some tournaments, and people loved it.)

But even the IF SAFH wasn't as obnoxious to me as one of the builds you could do with the 4th edition SM book's "build-a-chapter." Whereas I went with the options to have basic squads Infiltrate and allow them to take two special weapons rather than a special weapon and a heavy weapon (letting them get close to the enemy and walk around shooting stuff), there were some who realized you could build a list with three Devastator Squads with Infiltrate as Elites and three Devastator Squads with Tank Hunters as Heavy Support, and that kind of firepower (especially with the special rules) was just disgusting.

[Mr Mystery]

I used to have an Iron Warriors army. Fully painted too. In fact, it was the easy paint scheme that swung me to them.

In 3.5, I had no downside.

I could sacrifice two Fast Attack slots for a fourth Heavy Support. Sounds tricky, but let's look at my options as they were. Fast Attack 0-1 Raptors - a really hard assault unit that inflicted -2 Ld on units it beat in combat. Chaos Bikes. That was it. Well, Bikes were a bit rubbish, and I could only have one unit of Raptors anyway (if memory serves, only Night Lords had the 0-1 cap removed), so the chances of me wanting to use the two additional slots were virtually nil, especially when I could put in a fourth Defiler....

Absolutely no downside to that. Not one. Sure, I couldn't take Daemons, but I could take lots, and lots, and lots of Dakka. So much dakka. And up to 9 Obliterators when they were obscenely good

And that to me was the ballad of 3.5. Lots of variety, but little of it actually used. Take Daemonic Speed. Everyone just used Daemonic Flight (well, the jump pack one) because it was categorically better. I can guarantee you most Daemon Princes would have had Stature, Resilience, Toughness, Strength, Extra Attack, Visage, Wings and the best save, along with the weapon that ignored Inv saves. A large slice of the possible upgrades didn't even get a look in, because they just weren't as good. Lots of variety, very little balance. No wonder it's missed so much. Any book following it is going to look a bit bobbins by comparisson.

Yet they did tighten it up too much, as I mentioned in my post above.

[Auticus]

I played thousand sons back in the 3.5 days, but not as my tournament list. I do remember everyone and their mother was Iron Warriors.

[Charon]

The chaos complaining is often as varied as the chaos factions themselves but the two that stand out are covered already:

#1 - there is no obviously OP combination with the CSM codex. There are no broken grav guns, no abuseable wave serpent, no wraith knight, nothing that really stands out as something that can play itself while the player sucks down cheetohs and rinses it down with mountain dew and draws breath.

#2 - legion rules. This is a two headed issue. A) no legion rules when marines got chapter rules so "its not fair". B) if legion rules get introduced, if none of them are OP (really strong) like the space marines can get their hands on then also will lead to people being upset.

Would disagree here.
Chaos actually does have a fair share of strong units. The main complaint is rather that none of these has "Chaos Space Marines" in its name. The codex was labeled "Codex: Cultists & Dragons" for a reason after all. The role CSM play in the codex or on the battlefield is rather underwhelming. You see Daemon princes, daemonic Flyers, Cultists, Spawns and maybe the odd Nurgle Obliterator in an average Chaos army which is... quite disappointing.

As for 2 this is also quite understandable. When even the '"Emperors Pointy Sticks" are important enough to receive their own set of traits to distinguish themselves from the "Ultra Ninja Super Marines of Rightousness" it is a hard pill to swallow that warbands of the Night Lords follow exactly the same doctrines as remnants of the Word Bearers. And when the loyal chapter of "Fire Phoenix of Doom" turns traitor, they automatically thrash their armory and fly to the next "equip a traitor" store to fetch their pre-heresy equipment.

[Sting52jb]

You do realize that the Chaos Marine player at LVO had exactly one Chaos Marine in it, a sorcerer, 2 min squads of cultist, two hell blades, and a brass scorpion, the rest was Daemons who summoned more daemons. He's a really good friend of mine and he did great unfortunately he went up against an Eldar Lynx in his first game of the finals and the Scorpion got blown off the table turn one with double 6's on the D weapon chart.

[Eldar_Atog]

It doesn't help that the cultists became the primary troop choice for the Chaos Space Marines codex. I don't mind taking an unit of them.. but I should not be rewarded for taking no chaos space marines (troops/elites) while using the chaos space marines codex.

Chaos (Tzeentch) is my painting project army so I am not looking for a hyper efficient list. I just don't want to feel like I'm not taking a heavy handicap when playing against another fluff player... Winning is not important but I want to feel like my army put in a good effort.

[Erik Setzer]

It doesn't help that the cultists became the primary troop choice for the Chaos Space Marines codex. I don't mind taking an unit of them.. but I should not be rewarded for taking no chaos space marines (troops/elites) while using the chaos space marines codex.

You know, I think it'd be cool if they renamed it "Codex: The Lost and the Damned" and threw in other stuff like 40K Beastmen and all.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

3.5 spoiled Chaos rotten. Beardy units up the wazoo, perks with no downsides (Iron Warriors anyone?). Loads of variety. Then it was toned down and taken away, and in the same way Cats have never forgotten they used be worshipped as Gods, Chaos players remember - even if they weren't around for the actual book.
Strictly speaking, Iron Warriors did have downsides. They were basically barred from taking any of the Daemon (not Daemonkin or Daemon Engine) units. And back then, that was pretty huge. Bloodletters had AP2 and Power Armor. Daemonettes had classic Rending. Plaguebearers were poisoned and really really tough. Even Horrors had mouth-mounted Burst Cannons. And then there were the Greater Daemons... The problem was that they traded these disadvantages for Obliterator spam (they used to be 0-1) in a codex where Oblits were Elite but really should have been Heavy. Oh, the problems that alone would've solved.

People keep going over the broken things of the 3.5 CSM book and always miss the big two: infiltrating Speedlords and Siren. Granted infiltrated Speedlords probably needed an errata to nerf them (making Infiltrate be Infantry-only) and were a fairly obscure trick, but how does everybody forget Siren? And still nobody wept for the loss of Siren. In fact, many cheered. Some of those cheering were even CSM players.

This is all beside the point though. Look at the power armies. Eldar Wave Serpent spam. It's unusually strong, but it's actually fluffy. Eldar are supposed to ride Wave Serpents to war... even if they're not supposed to be outshooting main line battle tanks, but whatever. How about Tau Farsight bombs, suit spam and whatnot? Unusually strong, unusually versatile, and not without some iffy mechanical wonks (Boosting the to-hit roll of Snap Fire? Buffmander ignores how many rules?), but fluffy. Tau are all about using both their technology and their bonds of kinship to compensate for the racial Tau's vulnerability to melee, and they do just that on the tabletop. Tzeentch summon spam? Brutal and nasty, but fluffy. Tzeentch is supposed to be the unstoppable caster army, with only Grey Knights able to match them. Decurion Wraiths. Utterly impossible to kill. But again, fluffy. Wouldn't it make sense that the Necron maintenance automatons would be capable of repairing each other? Now try to play a fluffy Chaos or Tyranid list against one of these other fluffy lists and watch what happens.

Compare Chaos Marines to another weaker codex, Orks. The Green Tide is a very beatable list if you know what you're doing, but at least it works the way it's supposed to (and suffers against the things it should really be vulnerable to, like Blasts and Flamers). Barrel forward and smash things. Doesn't have to be sophisticated. Just has to be sufficiently blunt, and by and large it is. And yet for such a lousy codex in the scheme of overall power, Orks are actually looked upon rather favorably. Their fluffy list does a decent enough job at acting the way they should based on the fluff, yet without being overshadowed by some blatantly more powerful but hilariously unfluffy unit or option (see Nob Bikers). By comparison, I'd have the Brainleech Devourer purged from the Tyranid codex for even half of the fifty-odd worthless units in the codex to actually be viable again.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

except you'd still have the stupid disconnects like the fact that your plague marines loose all of papa nurgles love when they bolt on terminator plate....etc

So you think they should have god themed terminator boxes too? Sounds totally fair enough to me, BA, DA, GK and SW have specific terminator boxes too after all. The FW ones could be a good reference point for plastic kits I guess.

[Charistoph]

So you think they should have god themed terminator boxes too? Sounds totally fair enough to me, BA, DA, GK and SW have specific terminator boxes too after all. The FW ones could be a good reference point for plastic kits I guess.

Of course, there is the Wrack method and include Terminator upgrades on to the Cult Marines sprues...

Or, just include all 5 versions on the Chaos Terminator sprue.

[Charon]

People keep going over the broken things of the 3.5 CSM book and always miss the big two: infiltrating Speedlords and Siren. Granted infiltrated Speedlords probably needed an errata to nerf them (making Infiltrate be Infantry-only) and were a fairly obscure trick, but how does everybody forget Siren? And still nobody wept for the loss of Siren. In fact, many cheered. Some of those cheering were even CSM players.

THIS.
1000 times THIS.

Somehow people tend to forget about Slaanesh Sorc Siren/Lash lists which was GLADLY accepted as bull**** and no chaos player shed a tear about the loss of this particular powers.
But I keep hearing complaints about the Iron Warriors and Oblitrators. While yes, they were and extremely good unit... we can spam them now the same (if not worse thnx to multiple FOC and unbound) as the old Iron Warrior Trait.

As a funny sidenote: The Deathjesters ability does nearly the same as the old Siren did. But this is not a stupid and bull****ty rule like siren was but "interesting" and "fun".
Want so see how this turns out after people realize how broken this is.


Of course, there is the Wrack method and include Terminator upgrades on to the Cult Marines sprues...

Or, just include all 5 versions on the Chaos Terminator sprue.

Actually I would even go further.
Sell a generic CSM Box, generic CSM Bikers, Terminators,...
And then sell a box with bitz only. Heads, Icons, weapons,... for the same price as a standard CSM box. No complete model included, just bitz to add on every other box. Hell I would buy multitudes...

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think they abandoned "all bits" approach after black templars and dark angels veterans though. I could see cult legions getting 2 week releases each - Power armour kit one week, terminator armour kit the 2nd (make sure both can make multiple units too) , throw in a clampack or two and make sure it all has good rules and that would give them a decent enough representation I think.

[Eldar_Atog]

Actually I would even go further.
Sell a generic CSM Box, generic CSM Bikers, Terminators,...
And then sell a box with bitz only. Heads, Icons, weapons,... for the same price as a standard CSM box. No complete model included, just bitz to add on every other box. Hell I would buy multitudes...

I would love to see something like that. It would be the perfect thing to add a little more spice to my Tzeentch stuff.

Would this work for Nurgle though? Nurgle is just so.... Nurglily.

[Charon]

I honestly do not think they would sell.
Problem is that they cant be arsed to give CSM the same treatment as SM, splitting them in SM, DA, BA, SW, GK.
So it is just one codex which means we have a lot of traitor legions rolled into one and I honestly do not believe that they create plastics for each legion or put bitz for all legions on every sprue. That would indeed be too much to ask.
I also think that GW just lets FW deal with chaos.
Noise marine upgrades are webstore exclusive for example and vastly inferior to FW Kakophoni


Would this work for Nurgle though? Nurgle is just so.... Nurglily.

Should. And after all Nurgle conversions are prett easy to do even for people not comfortable with modelling or painting.

[gruyere]

Heres the LVO list OP has referred to.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Vincente-F.-Arroyo-6th-Overall-Las-Vegas-Open.pdf

Thats what, 300 pts coming from the codex? If you want to run chaos you simply need to rely on FW and daemons, everything else is a joke.

[Eldar_Atog]

I honestly do not think they would sell.
Problem is that they cant be arsed to give CSM the same treatment as SM, splitting them in SM, DA, BA, SW, GK.
So it is just one codex which means we have a lot of traitor legions rolled into one and I honestly do not believe that they create plastics for each legion or put bitz for all legions on every sprue. That would indeed be too much to ask.
I also think that GW just lets FW deal with chaos.
Noise marine upgrades are webstore exclusive for example and vastly inferior to FW Kakophoni


I don't think most of us are talking about legion specific sprues.. It would be Chaos god specific sprues that most of us would want. If we want legion specific stuff, then we either go to FW or wait for FW to do something with our legion. (Fingers crossed for Prospero to come out at the end of this year).

My personal opinion in all of this is that people just want somewhat equal treatment. Every chaos legion does not need a codex... but supplements for the 4 Chaos gods just makes sense. It would require few, if any, new models. The introduction of some unique warlord traits and relics would probably be enough for the majority of Chaos players.

[DrBored]

I love how quickly the thread went from 'nice article' to 'let's complain about 3.5 no longer existing'. Pretty much proves every point I made.


Nice job ignoring that the previous two times we've seen rumors for Sisters (during 5th and 6th) saying there was a codex update we got one. It wasn't an actual physical book, but it was an update. It's only this batch as of this year that the rumors for a rules update didn't pan out.

The only rumors we actually get screwed on are models, and if you look close Sisters players don't take those seriously and more want to confirm they're fake so they can move on with their lives.

But look, the 'update', that digital 'thing' was part of the same system that makes the Sisters of Battle hopefuls so addicted. Slot machines will often pour out small rewards to keep people interested and addicted. The digital codex was that 'small reward' for continuing to be loyal and continuing to pull on that slot lever.

[Denzark]

Do you see how, as predicted, we went off topic to discuss the Chaos 3.5 ad infinite? Mebbe the OP had a point...

The only thing I bemoan from 3.5 was all my cult squads numbered for the gods for a free champ. Was it OP I took 6 noise marines and got a free champ? It was a trifle awkward getting back to 10s for later editions...

[Eldar_Atog]

Do you see how, as predicted, we went off topic to discuss the Chaos 3.5 ad infinite? Mebbe the OP had a point...


Yeah, I think OP was pretty spot on.. The ppl that experienced 3.5 are either very nostaligic or very fearful of it making a comeback. I was playing during 3rd but the only person who was using the 3.5 codex on a normal basis was a butt weasel we drove out of the play group within a month or 2. I didn't really experience the 3.5 codex like some of the other vets.

For me, 3rd edition was a long twilight of listening to people fuss about the Eldar in 2nd edition. It didn't matter what I tried to use.. there was always fussing about how overpowered the Eldar used to be. Even when my rule set was in tatters and nothing worked as expected... my army was always the scapegoat.

[daboarder]

The problem is that GW didnt try to build on the design by fixing the issues in the book
It just threw a match in and went back to the bad variant.

I mean how much screaming would there be from marine players if they had just completely scrapped chapter rules instead of fixing them....and those guys are meant to be FORCED to fight generically and unlike the legions.

Dr i think that the side tracking does make your point. The way however from some posters also unfortunately makes the goal of your post unlikely. These people wont empathise with chaos players for the simple reason that it didnt happen to them. Not everyone mind but enough too fuel resentment. I mean look at the people that downplay the issue with sisters of battle

[DrBored]

The problem is that GW didnt try to build on the design by fixing the issues in the book
It just threw a match in and went back to the bad variant.

I mean how much screaming would there be from marine players if they had just completely scrapped chapter rules instead of fixing them....and those guys are meant to be FORCED to fight generically and unlike the legions.

Dr i think that the side tracking does make your point. The way however from some posters also unfortunately makes the goal of your post unlikely. These people wont empathise with chaos players for the simple reason that it didnt happen to them. Not everyone mind but enough too fuel resentment. I mean look at the people that downplay the issue with sisters of battle

It's true, but having this article out there might help a little. Even if Chaos and Sisters players themselves can just understand why they're doing what they're doing, it might help down the line.

Nothing is going to fix it short of a full codex and new plastic line for Sisters, and a new set of Legion rules for Chaos Marines. Only then will I say "Alright complainers, time to pack it up and shut up."

[daboarder]

It's true, but having this article out there might help a little. Even if Chaos and Sisters players themselves can just understand why they're doing what they're doing, it might help down the line.

Nothing is going to fix it short of a full codex and new plastic line for Sisters, and a new set of Legion rules for Chaos Marines. Only then will I say "Alright complainers, time to pack it up and shut up."

I can agree with that.

I also think a good example of solving the issue would be Tyranids, we justifiably complained we were stuffed after the 5th ed book, and the 6th ed book didnt help.

BUT with a dearth of formation, new units (a unit re-design or two) and some love we can now play a reasonably competitive list that FEELS like a tyranid force should. And what do we see in the community, why most of the nid complaints go away, sure we still have our maleceptors and genestealers still have their core problems but for the most part we are no longer the **** kicker army we were in 5th

[DrBored]

I can agree with that.

I also think a good example of solving the issue would be Tyranids, we justifiably complained we were stuffed after the 5th ed book, and the 6th ed book didnt help.

BUT with a dearth of formation, new units (a unit re-design or two) and some love we can now play a reasonably competitive list that FEELS like a tyranid force should. And what do we see in the community, why most of the nid complaints go away, sure we still have our maleceptors and genestealers still have their core problems but for the most part we are no longer the **** kicker army we were in 5th

True. One of the frustrating things with GW in the latest edition has been issues of CONSISTENCY. Pretty much all codices have gotten supplements, but some have gotten more formations or more dataslates than others. The older Codices at this point suffer from having too few options for formations, and many forces don't have many options for allies, so there's a real lack of consistency across their range. Tyranids got dataslate after dataslate after dataslate of formations, while Chaos Marines just got one covering Helbrutes that had formations. New codices like Necrons have tons of different formations and ways to use them and build them, while things like Dark Angels are twiddling their thumbs.

My hope is that going into the next year we see some more consistency, of different codices getting more or less equal treatment to bring them in line with codices that have already gotten a plethora of options.

The obvious hope is for Chaos Marines to get that treatment in the form of Legion or God-specific formations or supplements or dataslates or whatever. It's beyond me why GW isn't capitalizing on this, other than they're saving up for something.

What that 'something' is is totally beyond me. I doubt it's going to be End Times, though that would be the most convenient way for 40k Chaos Marines to get the units and updates they need, however I really have no faith that GW would really do an 'End Times' type thing for 40k, at least not nearly to the scale that they're apparently doing with Fantasy, where whole forces get annihilated.

After all, and I've pointed this out before, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Plague Marines all desperately need updates. Either GW updates them, or they'll do what they've done to Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the past, and just remove them from the Codex completely. Honestly, I'm expecting that this would be more likely than Chaos Marines actually getting Legion or God books.

[lantzkev]

True. One of the frustrating things with GW in the latest edition has been issues of CONSISTENCY. Pretty much all codices have gotten supplements, but some have gotten more formations or more dataslates than others. The older Codices at this point suffer from having too few options for formations, and many forces don't have many options for allies, so there's a real lack of consistency across their range. Tyranids got dataslate after dataslate after dataslate of formations, while Chaos Marines just got one covering Helbrutes that had formations. New codices like Necrons have tons of different formations and ways to use them and build them, while things like Dark Angels are twiddling their thumbs.

My hope is that going into the next year we see some more consistency, of different codices getting more or less equal treatment to bring them in line with codices that have already gotten a plethora of options.

The obvious hope is for Chaos Marines to get that treatment in the form of Legion or God-specific formations or supplements or dataslates or whatever. It's beyond me why GW isn't capitalizing on this, other than they're saving up for something.

What that 'something' is is totally beyond me. I doubt it's going to be End Times, though that would be the most convenient way for 40k Chaos Marines to get the units and updates they need, however I really have no faith that GW would really do an 'End Times' type thing for 40k, at least not nearly to the scale that they're apparently doing with Fantasy, where whole forces get annihilated.

After all, and I've pointed this out before, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Plague Marines all desperately need updates. Either GW updates them, or they'll do what they've done to Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the past, and just remove them from the Codex completely. Honestly, I'm expecting that this would be more likely than Chaos Marines actually getting Legion or God books.

oddly enough by my count, the army with most formations is tyrannids... eldar, tau, and orks roughly tied for last (lumping all imperium bs together)

[Yonasu]

I don't understand how "CSM got 8th place" has anything to do with csm players complaining. Have you seen the list? cultists as the cheapest troops possible, probably just ran up and died. 2 hell blades & a greater brass scorpion, FW models. sorc + 3 heralds and spawn for summoning i guess. It's hardly a "CSM" list if it only has a ML1 sorc and 20 cultists as the normal units...

[DrBored]

I don't understand how "CSM got 8th place" has anything to do with csm players complaining. Have you seen the list? cultists as the cheapest troops possible, probably just ran up and died. 2 hell blades & a greater brass scorpion, FW models. sorc + 3 heralds and spawn for summoning i guess. It's hardly a "CSM" list if it only has a ML1 sorc and 20 cultists as the normal units...

That was part of the point I was making. It was a jab at "How could CSM players complain when a CSM list got top 8?" and then I turned it around with "However, the list will look nothing like CSM players EXPECT a CSM list to look."

It's all there.

[Clockwork]

But look, the 'update', that digital 'thing' was part of the same system that makes the Sisters of Battle hopefuls so addicted. Slot machines will often pour out small rewards to keep people interested and addicted. The digital codex was that 'small reward' for continuing to be loyal and continuing to pull on that slot lever.

It's not an addiction if rumors of codex updates proved to be true. Seriously, you're stretching here and characterizing a group of players as hopeless addicts who can't help but jump on every rumor like a starving tick onto a dog when the reality is that most of the time we dismiss rumors when they come out. Yes we want to see updates, but many don't think said updates are coming or will ever happen and when those small updates do happen they catch us largely by surprise.

Also you're seriously going to sit there and wag your finger at people for wanting a legitimate update for their army after seeing the quality of new models and response when other outdated armies (Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Necrons) were given an update? Seriously, it's not an addiction to be demanding some proper treatment as a customer.

[Mr Mystery]

I see the continued lip service to Sisters are reassurance that they are coming.

Granted I'm not a Sisters player, but the stuff you have had shows there is interest in them within the development team.

And when they get their redo, I'd expect it to be on par with the Necron and Dark Eldar redos.

[Auticus]

The question will be what will the reaction be if they are not gifted with a really powerful build.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh I'm sure there'll be the same old ****-measuring based whining. There always is.

[Houghten]

The question will be what will the reaction be if they are not gifted with a really powerful build.

"Well, that was predictable."

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I agree, they will probably be a DE/Necron scale release.

They need quite a bit of work plastic-wise. Sisters/Retributers/Celestians/Dominions could all be potentially done as 1 plastic kit (ala grey knights PA) and then the Seraphims, Repentia, Penitent Engines, Exorcist, Canoness would need kits too - so that's about 5 kits and one clampack roughly. Easily a 5 week release, that's pretty big. I get the feeling they probably wouldn't add much if any new units either.

[DrBored]

The question will be what will the reaction be if they are not gifted with a really powerful build.

At this point I think it's just having access to plastic models, and all the benefits that brings.

[Houghten]

I agree, they will probably be a DE/Necron scale release.

They need quite a bit of work plastic-wise. Sisters/Retributers/Celestians/Dominions could all be potentially done as 1 plastic kit (ala grey knights PA) and then the Seraphims, Repentia, Penitent Engines, Exorcist, Canoness would need kits too - so that's about 5 kits and one clampack roughly. Easily a 5 week release, that's pretty big. I get the feeling they probably wouldn't add much if any new units either.

I could foresee some "new" units dual-kitted with old units. Repentia currently have precisely one option (eviscerators), so they might throw some flaming brands into the kit and call the resultant unit Redemptors or some such. Ophanim might have dual power swords instead of dual bolt pistols. The Epistle can have a pulpit in place of an organ. Not sure about the walkers... maybe something with massive arco-flails?

[Clockwork]

"Well, that was predictable."

That or "How the !$%@ did you make Repentia and Penitent Engines worse!?"

EDIT:
I could foresee some "new" units dual-kitted with old units. Repentia currently have precisely one option (eviscerators), so they might throw some flaming brands into the kit and call the resultant unit Redemptors or some such. Ophanim might have dual power swords instead of dual bolt pistols. The Epistle can have a pulpit in place of an organ. Not sure about the walkers... maybe something with massive arco-flails?

Burning Censors at the end of the chains. S: User, AP -, Rending, Soul Blaze

Or something like that.

[Popsical]

Oh I'm sure there'll be the same old ****-measuring based whining. There always is.

Spot on.
It will either be too good or too bad, or unit A will be a must but unit B is terrible.
SSDD.

[Clockwork]

Spot on.
It will either be too good or too bad, or unit A will be a must but unit B is terrible.
SSDD.

So every codex release ever? :rolleyes:

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I could foresee some "new" units dual-kitted with old units. Repentia currently have precisely one option (eviscerators), so they might throw some flaming brands into the kit and call the resultant unit Redemptors or some such. Ophanim might have dual power swords instead of dual bolt pistols. The Epistle can have a pulpit in place of an organ. Not sure about the walkers... maybe something with massive arco-flails?

That's a very good point, I didn't even consider that. I think the current codex has about 10-12 entries (?) so I guess if you make some of those duel kits like you say - it would bulk them up a bit, kind of like what they did with that first wave of necron kits. I think theres definitely potential for more of that crazy religious zealot weirdness too, so it would be a good place to start introducing that to add more flavour to them.