How many force org charts can you have?

[Popsical]

Hi all. As the title says, how many force org charts can you have in a legal army and are they still battleforged?
An example would be nice also cheers.

[Katharon]

You might be a little confused, which frankly is easy to do these days, about how "battleforged" armies work. First of all, there is only a single Force Organization Chart. For example, I decide to take Imperial Guard and decide that I want to keep it "battleforged". I therefore have to abide by the options given under the Force Organization Chart: 1 HQ and 2 TROOPS required minimum, with an option 4 TROOPS, 3 FAST ATTACK, 3 ELITES, and 3 HEAVIES. Also optional are the ability to take 1 Fortification and 1 Lord of War. All of that, so long as it doesn't violate the structure of the FoC (6, not 7 Troops, etc) means that the army is battleforged and is also detailed as my "Primary Detachment."

Now, there are other "detachments" and "formations" that you can take.

If I decide that I want to take some Space Marines to fight alongside my Imperial Guard, I can. There is an "Allied Detachment Force Organization Chart" that has the following: 1 HQ and 1 TROOP required minimum, and then 1 extra Troop choice -- but only 1 FAST ATTACK, ELITE, and HEAVY. So I could add in a Space Marine Captain, a Tactical Squad, and some Terminators (as an example Allied Detachment). These count as a "Secondary Detachment" and are not part of my "Primary Detachment."

Formations are special. They are specific groupings of units and often have special rules attached to them. There is no limit to the number of Formations that you can include in your army -- so long as you still have a Primary Detachment. Meaning that so long as I have 1 HQ and 2 Troops for my primary army, I can then add as many Tau Hunter Support Cadres as I can fit into my points limit. It truly is rather evil.

That answer you question well enough?

[Tokunator]

Short answer? As many as you want.

Long answer? As many as you want, provided you fulfil each detachment's minimum requirements. You can also add any number of formations, provided again that you fulfil their requirement. Of course, every unit is only ever in one detachment or formation, so you cannot use the same Tactical Squad in your Combined Arms Detachment and a Formation (though you could of course use multiple Tactical Squads).

So for example, I choose my Primary faction to be Blood Angels and I begin by choosing a Combined Arms Detachment from the Rulebook. I include a Librarian (HQ) and 2 Scout Squads (Troops), so my compulsory units are all there. I can now add 1 more HQ, 3 Elites, 4 Troops, 3 Fast Attacks and 3 Heavy Supports, but I don't have to. My first detachment is thus legal and I can either add to it or add a second detachment. I want to do that, so I can now choose a Combined Arms Detachment or a Blood Angels-specific detachment like the Flesh Tearers Strike Force. I choose to add the Flesh Tearers Strike Force, buying a Chaplain (HQ), a Tactical Squad (Troops) and an Assault Squad (Fast Attack), which means I have filled all the compulsory slots in that detachment (each detachment uses its own specific chart of what can and must be included). I can now add another HQ, 3 Elites, 3 Troops, 5 Fast Attacks and 3 Heavy Supports to that detachment or go back adding more stuff to the Combined Arms Detachment. I can keep adding more detachments as long as I want and have points to spare.

Of course, each detachment and formation has its own benefits too, which only its units will have. So in the case above, all the Troops from the Combined Arms Detachment have Objective Secured, but the ones from the Flesh Tearers Strike Force don't, as their detachment does not have that rule.

[Popsical]

Thanks guys.
What is a combined arms detachment?
Are there different types of foc?
Could i therefore have a foc of space doggies using their rules and a foc of BA using their rules and a foc of SM using their rules?
Would they all be able to secure objectives with the appropriate units?
Crikey 7th ed is more complicated than before, tho im not complaining by the way.

[sebi81]

Thanks guys.
What is a combined arms detachment?
Are there different types of foc?
Could i therefore have a foc of space doggies using their rules and a foc of BA using their rules and a foc of SM using their rules?
Would they all be able to secure objectives with the appropriate units?
Crikey 7th ed is more complicated than before, tho im not complaining by the way.

The objective secured rule comes from the combined arms detachment, which is similar to the old foc or from the allied detachment. Other detachments may have other rules. But you can indeed have a combined arms or allied detachment taking from codec SM, another taking units from codex SW and a third taking units from codex BA all in one army, as long as you have the requirements of all three detachments.

[Charistoph]

First of all, there is only a single Force Organization Chart.

This is so wrong. Every non-Formation Detachment has a Force Organization Chart. And now there are quite a few of them. There are is even one very unique one that places Formations and Units in its Force Organization Chart.


Thanks guys.
What is a combined arms detachment?

The classic Force Organization Chart for 3rd-5th Edition and the Primary Detachment that adds the Lord of War and Fortification to it. You can have as many of these as you want so long as your points hold out, and each one can be from a different codex. This is the standard "core" detachment everyone has access to and can use.


Are there different types of foc?

Quite a few now. The rulebook has 2, Combined Arms and Allied. Imperial Knights, Assassins, and Inquisition all have their own. Each of the Seventh Edition codices carries one, so do their Supplements. The Baal Campaign has at least one for every army involved.

And that's not including Formations, which have a specific organization, but they don't technically have a chart.


Could i therefore have a foc of space doggies using their rules and a foc of BA using their rules and a foc of SM using their rules?

So long as your points hold out. You can add even more from there if you choose.


Would they all be able to secure objectives with the appropriate units?

With a very rare exception, any unit can secure an objective. However, Troops organized in a Combined Arms and Allied Detachment can block other units from doing so and have it all to themselves (unless they also have the same rule).


Crikey 7th ed is more complicated than before, tho im not complaining by the way.

It is, and it isn't. It's only complicated when you keep thinking in 3rd-6th Edition army design. Toss that out, and it's really not that complicated.

[Houghten]

First of all, there is only a single Force Organization Chart.

Uh...

Combined Arms Detachments have one Force Organisation Chart.

Allied Detachments have a different Force Organisation Chart.

Ork Horde Detachments have a still different Force Organisation Chart.

And so on.


Formations are special. They are specific groupings of units and often have special rules attached to them. There is no limit to the number of Formations that you can include in your army -- so long as you still have a Primary Detachment. Meaning that so long as I have 1 HQ and 2 Troops for my primary army, I can then add as many Tau Hunter Support Cadres as I can fit into my points limit. It truly is rather evil.

Or, you could just designate one of the Firebase Support Cadres as your Primary Detachment, and one of your Broadside Shas'vre as your Warlord. He'd even generate a Warlord Trait, because the requirement is "character," not "independent character."


Thanks guys.
What is a combined arms detachment?
Are there different types of foc?
Could i therefore have a foc of space doggies using their rules and a foc of BA using their rules and a foc of SM using their rules?
Would they all be able to secure objectives with the appropriate units?
Crikey 7th ed is more complicated than before, tho im not complaining by the way.

Yes. You could have a detachment of Space Wolves, and that could be a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) or an Allied Detachment (AD) or one of the Space Wolf-specific detachments from their Codex or the Champions of Fenris supplement; plus a detachment of Blood Angels, which could be a CAD or an AD or one of the Blood Angels-specific detachments from their Codex or the Shield of Baal Exterminatus campaign book; plus a detachment of Space Marines, which could be a CAD or an AD (no 7th Edition Space Marine stuff yet, so as far as I know the only other detachments for vanilla Marines are Formations).

However, one thing you can't do is take nothing but Allied Detachments. This is because you must have a Warlord, and your Warlord must be chosen from your Primary Detachment (which is the only thing Primary Detachment means any more), and the Allied Detachment has a rule that says you can't choose it as your Primary Detachment.

Now, you mentioned securing objectives, so let's talk about Command Benefits. Detachments that aren't formations grant benefits to some or all of the units within them. Objective Secured is the Command Benefit of the CAD and AD; almost anything can claim an objective in 7th, but Troops units (including Dedicated Transports bought for Troops units) from a CAD or AD can claim objectives even when an enemy unit is contesting them (unless the enemy unit also has Objective Secured). Other detachments have different benefits. For example, if you decided to organise the Space Wolves into a Wolves Unleashed Detachment instead, each unit in it would roll to see if it gains Outflank; if you organised the Blood Angels into a Baal Strike Force Detachment, each unit in it would get +1I on the charge.

- - - Updated - - -


The Baal Campaign has at least one for every army involved.

Except Sisters. :(

[Popsical]

Thanks loads guys.
So if i have 3 or 4 CAD do i have to choose one hq as warlord for the lot. Or does each get its own warlord that applies to only its CAD units?

[Houghten]

Your entire army has one Warlord (though in Apocalypse games you may have multiple armies per side). If that Warlord has a Trait that affects all units within a radius, it will work on allied units that are Battle Brothers.

It doesn't have to be an HQ choice, though; it just has to be a character.* You'll usually get best results with an Independent Character, but if you really want to you can make some lowly Sergeant your Warlord.

*If you have managed to create an army with no characters at all (probably because you made it out of nothing but Formations), then any model can be your Warlord. They won't get a Warlord Trait out of it, but still count for all other purposes, like the Slay The Warlord secondary objective.

[Popsical]

Your entire army has one Warlord (though in Apocalypse games you may have multiple armies per side). If that Warlord has a Trait that affects all units within a radius, it will work on allied units that are Battle Brothers.

It doesn't have to be an HQ choice, though; it just has to be a character.* You'll usually get best results with an Independent Character, but if you really want to you can make some lowly Sergeant your Warlord.

*If you have managed to create an army with no characters at all (probably because you made it out of nothing but Formations), then any model can be your Warlord. They won't get a Warlord Trait out of it, but still count for all other purposes, like the Slay The Warlord secondary objective.

Cheers bud.

I have always wanted to field the army from the HH 3rd novel. Sons of horus with world eaters and emperors children. With the full panopolly of characters. Now i can do so. 7th ed maybe the best yet because of that.

[Katharon]

Wish they'd have simply kept things simple with the old 5th-6th Ed. FoC + Allied FoC + Formations. Simple as can be.

[Houghten]

Plus a Lord of War, plus a Fortification, and even in 6th there were Militarum Tempestus / Inquisition / Imperial Knights / Officio Assassinorum with unique extra detachments, and the extra Primary Detachment (that's not confusing terminology at all) above 2,000 points and another of everything else if you had the extra PD...

6th wasn't simple except at the very start; by the end it was a giant clusterbomb of special exceptions. 7th simplified things vastly by just saying "OK, they're all Detachments. Pick whichever."

[daboarder]

The funny one is the Tyranid list that is all flying tyrants and mucolid spores in troops

[Path Walker]

Formations are great too, add some character to a unit by giving them special rules, I used to run Killa Kans all with Rokkits, now I like to use the Formation

[DarkLink]

Wish they'd have simply kept things simple with the old 5th-6th Ed. FoC + Allied FoC + Formations. Simple as can be.

It is simple now, you just have to completely forget about how old editions work.

An army is made up of an unlimited number of detachments. Each detachment has its own force org chart, or in the case of formations a list of units. That's it.

[Popsical]

I really like the new army construction rules. Its a shame they werent around in 4th ed when i really wanted my Soul Drinkers to be fluffy.

[JMichael]

Thanks guys.
What is a combined arms detachment?
Are there different types of foc?
Could i therefore have a foc of space doggies using their rules and a foc of BA using their rules and a foc of SM using their rules?
Would they all be able to secure objectives with the appropriate units?
Crikey 7th ed is more complicated than before, tho im not complaining by the way.

Combined Arms Detachment: Rulebook p122. It is just one of many Detachments available. Most of the new codices have additional army specific Detachments.
Different Types of FOC: While we may see a 'Chart to Organize our Force' the term Force Organization Chart is not used anymore. You should wipe it from your memory.
The Command Benefits like Objective Secured are specific to each type of Detachment. Not all have Objective Secured, but may have something else. Just because you are Battle-Forged, does not give you Objective Secured. It is the specific Detachment that gives you that.
For example, the Blood Angels have their own Detachment called the Baal Strike Force (codex p110). Their Command Benefits allow the Warlord to re-roll on the BA Warlord Traits table only. Also instead of Objective Secured the get 'The Red Thirst' which gives all models in this Detachment +1 Init when charging.

I personally find 7th much better, just different.
When a new 40k edition comes out, I sit down with the rulebook and paper/pencil. I clear my mind of they old rules and try to read the new book as if for the first time. Don't just skim through. I write notes on each section (like studying for a test) on what the rules are, not just how they are different from the previous edition.
It really helps!

[Houghten]

Different Types of FOC: While we may see a 'Chart to Organize our Force' the term Force Organization Chart is not used anymore. You should wipe it from your memory.

I recommend re-reading page 120.

[Popsical]

Ive encountered a little conundrum id like help with please.
If i choose to make an army from say: CAD + CAD + CAD this is fine yes?
If one of the CAD armies has a rule that says "no allied detachment", can i still take the other two CAD's?
Technically none of them are "allied detachments" as the allied detachment is its own little block.
cheers in advance.

[ShadowcatX]

Ive encountered a little conundrum id like help with please.
If i choose to make an army from say: CAD + CAD + CAD this is fine yes?
If one of the CAD armies has a rule that says "no allied detachment", can i still take the other two CAD's?
Technically none of them are "allied detachments" as the allied detachment is its own little block.
cheers in advance.

What army has a rule that says "no allied detachments"?

[Popsical]

Some of the rites of war in 30k prohibit allied detachments or fortification detachments etc.

[JMichael]

I recommend re-reading page 120.

Doh! My mistake!

[Drew da Destroya]

I have a related question. Can you have a CAD detachment (or a non-CAD but still Battleforged Detachment, like the Ork Horde one), and a separate Unbound detachment? Or does going Unbound with one part of your force unbind the rest of your army?

I want to ally my Dark Eldar with some Harlequin, but not necessarily any of their formations or the detachment. Just like, a Solitaire and one Troupe. Can I run a CAD or Realspace Raiders detachment, and an Unbound detachment of those Harlies?

[JMichael]

I have a related question. Can you have a CAD detachment (or a non-CAD but still Battleforged Detachment, like the Ork Horde one), and a separate Unbound detachment? Or does going Unbound with one part of your force unbind the rest of your army?

I want to ally my Dark Eldar with some Harlequin, but not necessarily any of their formations or the detachment. Just like, a Solitaire and one Troupe. Can I run a CAD or Realspace Raiders detachment, and an Unbound detachment of those Harlies?

Not really. Unbound is not a detachment type but an Army Organization Method (rulebook p117).
Your army can be one or the other, and this is decided before army selection.

You can certainly just make an Unbound list and use whatever you want! Even if your Dark Eldar conform to the CAD, if your entire force is Unbound then you don't get any Command Benefits.

[Drew da Destroya]

Ok, cool, that makes sense. Thanks for the answer!