Unbound in your area...Abused or not?

[JMichael]

I seem to constantly see people on this and other forums complaining about Unbound and how it has wrecked 7th.
In my area and the stores I frequent, both competitive and fun play I don't see any unbound lists winning.
Our GW store had a 9 week league that allowed unbound lists and being that prizes were on the line I expected to see some true nastiness. But no.

My personal experience is that our players consider the advantage of the Command Benefits of their Detachments to outweigh the need to bring 'all the crazy stuff'.

Sometimes I will see the Lord of War (super heavy) belonging to the allied detachment's faction and thus unbound. But not a huge deal at all.

I should also mention that while leagues I have played in allow unbound, all of the tournaments require Battle-Forged only.

Anyway, what is your actual experience at your LGS or group?

[Katharon]

Considering the fact that only Battle Forged armies can get 'Objective Secured' and trump all Unbound armies, and that all Maelstrom of War missions are objective based, this would be the obvious reason for why you are not seeing Unbound in those competitive settings that allow it -- at least far less than most people expected. When Unbound was first released into the game as a method of playing, most players either panicked or immediately went to go pick up those two extra Wraith Knights that they'd been thinking about. However, once things settled and the reality of the mission requirements sunk in, most players on average realized how Unbound was a one-shot shot. Sure, it can hit like a hammer -- but when faced with either having to table an enemy opponent or hope to achieve points against an army that will trump you in objective taking, it calmed things down.

[daboarder]

I use unbound to run my Chaos Termi list....the thing is, I do that because I like to take a certain combo of units, if people complain about a list that is fluffy and clearly not built around face smashing, then I bring out Typhus and the Zombies and make them face my much harder list that is not unbound, normally I haven't had the problem against an opponent more than once, then they get the point

[DrBored]

Main reason I don't complain about Unbound? I don't play against armies that are unbound. I've noticed that most players in the hobby around me don't just collect an army specifically to play unbound, they typically will collect an army of one faction, with CAD or a formation in mind. I just play against that.

If someone wants to play unbound against me, I just say 'OK, here are my 100 individual counts-as Obliterators that I'm going to deep strike, all with Mark of Nurgle.'

They typically don't want to play Unbound any more after about turn two or three.

And not even because it's good.

Because I take my time rolling for every single individual reserve and scatter roll, and take my sweet time marking each individual model that has shot or hasn't, and what weapon it has shot so I don't use that weapon in the next turn, and who has lost one of their wounds.

Ye olde Ruin Their Fun With Obnoxiousness technique.

[JMichael]

I use unbound to run my Chaos Termi list....the thing is, I do that because I like to take a certain combo of units, if people complain about a list that is fluffy and clearly not built around face smashing, then I bring out Typhus and the Zombies and make them face my much harder list that is not unbound, normally I haven't had the problem against an opponent more than once, then they get the point

This, in my mind, is what unbound is best for. There are certainly times you may face a force that does not adhere to a strict organization.
Like having a Saim Hann Eldar force of just jetbikes, or an all terminator assault force.
I also like the idea of no HQ (especially for my Eldar), but a sergeant or Exarch leading the force instead.

I have noticed that a lot of the additional detachments lack objective secured, but have some other rule in its place.
We do play mostly Maelstrom missions, and I rarely have a case where Objective Secured really comes into play. Of course that may be because if we are both playing CADs then our play will be around both of us have OS.

[daboarder]

Main reason I don't complain about Unbound? I don't play against armies that are unbound. I've noticed that most players in the hobby around me don't just collect an army specifically to play unbound, they typically will collect an army of one faction, with CAD or a formation in mind. I just play against that.

If someone wants to play unbound against me, I just say 'OK, here are my 100 individual counts-as Obliterators that I'm going to deep strike, all with Mark of Nurgle.'

They typically don't want to play Unbound any more after about turn two or three.

And not even because it's good.

Because I take my time rolling for every single individual reserve and scatter roll, and take my sweet time marking each individual model that has shot or hasn't, and what weapon it has shot so I don't use that weapon in the next turn, and who has lost one of their wounds.

Ye olde Ruin Their Fun With Obnoxiousness technique.

charming, so you'd have an issue against a blood angel player running an all jump pack force, despite the lack of it being the biggest stupidity in the new codex? Because it was CAD only 5 months ago

[JMichael]

charming, so you'd have an issue against a blood angel player running an all jump pack force, despite the lack of it being the biggest stupidity in the new codex? Because it was CAD only 5 months ago

I he wouldn't have any issues as that is, in my opionion, the exact reason to bring a fluffy unbound list!

Although you still can run an Archangels Strike Force detachment and be Battle-Forged(up to 2 HQ and 16 Elites) and they get to re-roll failed reserve rolls! That's a ton of Death Company, Sanguinary, Vanguard Veteran, and Command squads! Basically all of the Jump troops except the general Assault Squad!
You could still add Lemartes (Elite), Sanguinary Priest, The Sanguinor, and Cmdr Dante!
All a legal Battle-Forged army and crazy!

[DrBored]

charming, so you'd have an issue against a blood angel player running an all jump pack force, despite the lack of it being the biggest stupidity in the new codex? Because it was CAD only 5 months ago

Nah, tbh I wouldn't have an issue with that, and I might play it, but here's the thing that people seem to forget about 40k in A LOT OF INSTANCES (I don't mean to yell, I really want to emphasize this point).

40k doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Centurions don't exist in a vacuum.

Necrons don't exist in a vacuum.

Unbound as a rule doesn't exist in a vacuum.

In every situation there is a counter, or at the very least, a conversation. Just because the rulebook has Unbound as an OPTION doesn't mean it's going to happen every single time in every circumstance. If I have a mature conversation in the language that my opponent happens to speak, and he responds to me in a way that shows he is a reasonable human being, I have a feeling that we can come to various conclusions about what we would like and not like to play in a game of 40k, and if our opinions seem to differ by a significant margin, then we can go about our business in other ways, or interact in meaningful ways outside of the game of 40k.

[daboarder]

fair enough

[JMichael]

All this is great to hear...er read.
I think the community concern was that Unbound would be synonymous with cheese monsters (i.e. All Flyrant, Riptide, WraithKnight, etc) lists.
In the groups I play in here in San Diego, I have never come across that situation. Perhaps people know they will be outed, or most likely the groups I play in don't have those kind of people.

[Denzark]

Main reason I don't complain about Unbound? I don't play against armies that are unbound. I've noticed that most players in the hobby around me don't just collect an army specifically to play unbound, they typically will collect an army of one faction, with CAD or a formation in mind. I just play against that.

If someone wants to play unbound against me, I just say 'OK, here are my 100 individual counts-as Obliterators that I'm going to deep strike, all with Mark of Nurgle.'

They typically don't want to play Unbound any more after about turn two or three.

And not even because it's good.

Because I take my time rolling for every single individual reserve and scatter roll, and take my sweet time marking each individual model that has shot or hasn't, and what weapon it has shot so I don't use that weapon in the next turn, and who has lost one of their wounds.

Ye olde Ruin Their Fun With Obnoxiousness technique.

Thats over 8k points, play that a lot do you?

[Mr Mystery]

So DrBored, because you don't like something, you've decided nobody should.

And people actually play you more than once?

[SnakeChisler]

Unbound is what it is

Your not forced to play it and your not forced to play against it

It may come in for thematic campaign style missions or one offs but to be honest it doesn't shake my tree at all and same goes for a lot of people I know to the point where we used to have Come the Apocalypse Allies but have moved back from that as well unless we do doubles and bigger games.

Do I think its a useful addition - Yes
Would I play a pickup game against an Unbound list - No its too much hassle
And a good point was made by one of the Chaos players he uses unbound to create a Theme now would I play a pickup game against him - No not unless he was a friend and we'd discussed what he wanted to do and why on a previous occasions - the reason Trust

The same goes for super heavies and forge world as far as I'm concerned they belong in Apoc and Escalation type games, I don't mind the odd Imperial Knight or formation but you have a tipping point with these where the games can get one sided and very boring.

Lets take the Hellbrute formation as an example - its a bit stinky but if you play a big enough points game and your opponent knows your fetching it its not too hard to work around it so it doesn't completely dominate play. In 1500 points its OP in 2000 it gives your opponent enough points to try counter it.

With regard to allies as well you just don't get the feel for an army if its all over the shop no matter how technically legal it is in the new rules and I have only so many 40k hours available and I'd feel I'd wasted them playing against an Ad-Hoc model collection rather than a proper army to the point which I'd rather watch someone else's cool army than play.

[Rob Godin]

Main reason I don't complain about Unbound? I don't play against armies that are unbound. I've noticed that most players in the hobby around me don't just collect an army specifically to play unbound, they typically will collect an army of one faction, with CAD or a formation in mind. I just play against that.

If someone wants to play unbound against me, I just say 'OK, here are my 100 individual counts-as Obliterators that I'm going to deep strike, all with Mark of Nurgle.'

They typically don't want to play Unbound any more after about turn two or three.

And not even because it's good.

Because I take my time rolling for every single individual reserve and scatter roll, and take my sweet time marking each individual model that has shot or hasn't, and what weapon it has shot so I don't use that weapon in the next turn, and who has lost one of their wounds.

Ye olde Ruin Their Fun With Obnoxiousness technique.

Well, I'd just tell you I won't play "counts as" :)

In all seriousness, I'd prefer to play unbound WISIWYG than bound "counts as".
I don't currently get many games in, but would be happy to play unbound. I think with so many formations and alternative CADs, you would be foolish to play unbound.

[40kGamer]

All this is great to hear...er read.
I think the community concern was that Unbound would be synonymous with cheese monsters (i.e. All Flyrant, Riptide, WraithKnight, etc) lists.
In the groups I play in here in San Diego, I have never come across that situation. Perhaps people know they will be outed, or most likely the groups I play in don't have those kind of people.

My buddy and I just went unbound for some gameplay. I wanted to play my Arbites list (IG Vets with Shotguns in SM Rhinos, Inquisitorial Crusaders for the Power Maul + Storm Shield in Rhinos, etc... while he wanted to play his Tzeentch cultists list mixing elements of IG, CSM & a few Daemons. Both lists would get steamrolled in a regular game as they are so light duty but they are great fun to play. It's always entertaining when a basic rhino is really hard to take out of action.

[Charistoph]

All this is great to hear...er read.
I think the community concern was that Unbound would be synonymous with cheese monsters (i.e. All Flyrant, Riptide, WraithKnight, etc) lists.
In the groups I play in here in San Diego, I have never come across that situation. Perhaps people know they will be outed, or most likely the groups I play in don't have those kind of people.

It still is a concern. Someone may do it accidentally without even knowing it's a cheesy list. Not everyone uses the internet for the forums, after all, and no one bothered to mention it in their hearing.

But as I've said when these topics come up on another forum, a lot of it is communication and how you present the situation, on BOTH sides of the table.

I haven't heard a lot of Unbound being played at my LGS, as we still have a small tournament scene going and everyone builds (or encourages new people to build) toward those ends to keep things consistent in the friendly games.

[Cactus]

Unbound hasn't been a problem in my area. The game is so loose in army construction at this point that you'd have to set out to make an unbound list - instead of Unbound being a way to catch up to other lists.

[Mr Mystery]

Unbound is cool, and due to having to shell out a lot of cash for the horrific combos, and the risk no one will want to play you, largely self regulating, as all you've done is demonstrate you're a dickhead best avoided.

[40kGamer]

Given how easy it is to make a completely 100% legal objective secured dick list why would anyone even be inclined to do it with unbound? I see it as GW nodding to those of us fluff players who haven't even been able to 'legally' field Arbites since there is absolutely no way to do it otherwise.

[Auticus]

Unbound is rare here, and always after the playing parties agreed to it. The internet, per usual, makes things out to be much worse than the reality.

[Demonus]

My group is pretty open to Unbound. We have made a house rule to reward "bound" players. For any bound army you may choose your WL trait one of two ways:
- Roll trait, reroll on your chart if you do not like roll #1
- Roll a d6. Pick any WL table you have access to and use that trait

Players must decide which of the 2 options they wish to use before they roll. Most times it lessens the chance you get a crappy result (like Adman Will vs Necrons or Tau...)

Honestly I haven't had Obj Secured play a huge role in the games Ive played. Maybe 1-2 times. Most times the formation bonus I run is better (Necrons/Space Wolves). I haven't faced any super cheesy unbound lists yet. I faced a guy that ran all SM dreadnoughts. Another guy had 10 Lone Wolves and the rest Dreadnoughts. I partnered with a guy last week running all Greater Daemons. Skaarbrand, Fateweaver, Belakor and 2 LoC + his unbound Nurgle CSM vs 6 Imperial Knights w/ 1000pts of Blood Angels. Both sides knew what they were facing ahead of time and the game was very fun.

[DrBored]

So DrBored, because you don't like something, you've decided nobody should.

And people actually play you more than once?

I'm just going to copy paste my previous post:

40k doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Centurions don't exist in a vacuum.

Necrons don't exist in a vacuum.

Unbound as a rule doesn't exist in a vacuum.

In every situation there is a counter, or at the very least, a conversation. Just because the rulebook has Unbound as an OPTION doesn't mean it's going to happen every single time in every circumstance. If I have a mature conversation in the language that my opponent happens to speak, and he responds to me in a way that shows he is a reasonable human being, I have a feeling that we can come to various conclusions about what we would like and not like to play in a game of 40k, and if our opinions seem to differ by a significant margin, then we can go about our business in other ways, or interact in meaningful ways outside of the game of 40k.

[Erik Setzer]

The poll option doesn't quite fit how it works locally. It's allowed by some people, not by others, because they don't want to see what might come out of it, even though I've proved a 1000 point Battle-forged list can still give you a Knight and a Thunderwolf Cavalry block. Some people use it for just fun, fluffy armies (even if that fluff is their own making or just for fun, like a guy converting a sort of Sith-style Dark Eldar army with some Separatist allies in the form of IG, one of whom was converted to a Twi'lek officer).

I'll ask a person their intent before agreeing. If it sounds like a fun match, I'm game with it, but then I go Unbound and do a similar fun list, too.

[Archon Charybdis]

Given how easy it is to make a completely 100% legal objective secured dick list why would anyone even be inclined to do it with unbound?

Exactly so. Last week I brought my TAC Dark Eldar list and faced off against a CAD compliant mechanized list with Chimera Vets for Troops and then Leman Russes for everything else. Wasn't much fun.

On the other hand, I can only recall seeing two Unbound lists in recent months. One was a friend's Illuminor Szeras(?)/Haemonculus Coven list, predicated on the fluff that in his all-consuming quest to restore Necrons to their fleshly form, Szeras overcame aeons of racial enmity and struck an unlikely alliance with the fleshcrafters of Commoragh. The other was my own Coven army featuring a converted Boneripper counts-as Wraithknight, both to make use of a really awesome model and to fill the anti-tank role in my army. Neither were exactly dominating the club.


As someone else mentioned, I think the super crazy lists like all Riptides or Wraithknights etc. are fairly self-regulating, because they're so damn expensive and quite likely to get people to say "Yeah I'm not playing against that."

[DrBored]

As someone else mentioned, I think the super crazy lists like all Riptides or Wraithknights etc. are fairly self-regulating, because they're so damn expensive and quite likely to get people to say "Yeah I'm not playing against that."

I think it's this phenomenon that keeps people from going balls-to-the-wall bonkers with Unbound. Limited funds and limited appeal.

Ok, so let's say you do buy and build and even paint 5 riptides for an Unbound list.

You stomp around, manage to beat everyone in your club one way or another.

Then what? You're done. You've accomplished what you set out to do. You bought, built, and even painted 5 riptides and won a lot. What do you add to that? Where does the army go? What do you do with those five riptides? There are only so many tactical decisions you can make with that sort of an army, and once those are exhausted, or the opponents are exhausted from playing against it, can you really say that it was worth it?

I think subconsciously everyone sort of understands this, that you get diminishing returns as your list gets more and more ridiculous. We all know what, in theory, would happen with those silly lists, so putting it into practice just ends up seeming moot.

It's a lot more fun to have more regulated lists, more 'normal' lists with more variety, with more options that you can practice with on the field, and it feels like you're getting more bang for your buck when you make an army of this style.

[Tim Currey]

Generally at my local GW (where I play most of my games due to their dozen or so tables) it comes down to what you agree with your aponent. Tournaments are generally battle forged armies, however we are playing an "unleashed" tournament next weekend that is basically anything goes. But then it's equal ground coz everyone knows they are gonna face crazy lists. One guy is apparently bringing 10 dread knights....

[JMichael]

This is all great stuff! I think it shows that the majority of players are in it for the fun and fluff.
I play at 3-4 local stores and have found every store has 1-3 WAAC players who tend try to find loopholes, bring the latest net deathstar list, etc.
I'm not finding people regularly trying to bring crazy mashup unbound lists to prove their superiority.
It is usually a "hey, I want to try out this stupid Riptide/WraithKnight/Tyranid/Stompa list. Is that cool?"

The local tournaments I have played in are all Battle-Forged only, and even the leagues that allow Unbound have no real cheese monkeys.

[Renegade]

Unbound is like missions, sometimes you just agree to play a particular one.

Not that many dicks playing in my area as the ones that would have abused it have gone over to things like X Wing, so all is good.

[zerorunner]

If someone wants to play unbound against me, I just say 'OK, here are my 100 individual counts-as Obliterators that I'm going to deep strike, all with Mark of Nurgle.'
.

If you built and painted that instead of counts-as'ed it, I would play against it just to see it on the table..... I'm a bit crazy that way.

[Dave Mcturk]

everyones answer to the 'problem' is different. and its great to see that the overwhelming majority of 'players' are still having fun despite gw [and to be fair because of];

our local solution is to play 'competition' combined scenarios that are common to most tournaments - massively focused unbound lists are unlikely to 'always' get a favourable scenario and so everyone tends to bring more balanced lists.

the issues we are encountering most problems with are the continuing increase in units T values since 5th ed. finding a way to get more high T units that have utility is far more important and therefore game 'breaking' than spamming theoretical 'uber units'.

i would happily play 4 or 5 riptides with my standard ork trukk rush army - [though not so keen on 5 wraithknights !]

[deinol]

I've been using unbound to play harlequins for a while now. And by unbound, I mostly mean buying raiders and venoms for my harlequins. I haven't tried the new codex yet, but I suspect I'll still play unbound just to get raiders. Of course, archon as great harlequin and a couple squads of raiders would be easy enough to make it a real detachment. But then I'd need to get around to buying raiders.

My area nobody cares as long as you aren't being an *******. And there are plenty of ways to be an ******* and still be bound.

[Zaonite]

Unbound in my group is a gentleman's agreement. I.e. you tell your opponent beforehand that you are unbound and what you are taking, allowing them some leeway and letting them change up their army list if needs be.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I like the idea of Unbound to play heavily themed armies that are fluffy. I'd like to do an all-canoptek force. If someone thought the army was overpowered, I'd be only too happy to compromise by allowing them some advantages or something to balance things out too. Then again, I'm not a competitive person in the least and never really cared about winning at all (not that I wouldn't try to as it is the goal of the game)