Could the Legions be reconstituted?

[Mr Mystery]

Evening all.

Just a random question that popped into my noggin.

If the Imperium wanted to, for whatever reason, do you think the Legions of old could be reconstituted in terms of sheer numbers?

[daboarder]

no,

1) The imperium barely has the tech to maintain the space marines/ gene seed it has and what it does have is so locked up in ritual its not funny

2) the imperium does not have the unified supply needed to maintain the legions anymore

3) a good chunk of the current space marine chapters have no idea who their Primarch is, they are far to independent to be formed into a legion again.

[40kGamer]

Evening all.

Just a random question that popped into my noggin.

If the Imperium wanted to, for whatever reason, do you think the Legions of old could be reconstituted in terms of sheer numbers?

Hmmm. After the Heresy we had 9 loyal legions. 40k fluff tags marines at ~1000 active chapters with ~1000 marines on the average. So 1,000,000 marines divided across 9 legions would yield an average of ~111k marines per legion. Of course it wouldn't shake out that way as the Ultramarines are the bulk of modern gene stock. But I would have to say absolutely.

[Wolfshade]

In the Blood Angels omnibus Dante summons all (or at least a big chunk) of successor chapters to Baal to and they all work together in a legion-esque kind of way. Though while wrapped in common purpose each maintains their autonomy and production of materiel. In a way it seems to be similar way to the way that the different legion elements worked in the great crusade with companies (and groups their of) would be responsible for persecuting their war but had to look after their own supplies.

[YorkNecromancer]

Someone's attempt would certainly make for an interesting story...

It's obviously not impossible; you'd just have to use Plot Devices that were plausible. So: where's the gene seed production facility, and why has it never been heard of before? Which Forge Worlds have agreed to supply the munitions and materiel and why? Which Chapter is it, how are they reclaiming their Successors, and who is in charge of negotiating all the treaties?

I think that could actually make a really interesting 40K roleplay game; have the players as, say, the High Council of the Ultramarines (because they seem like a fairly reasonable choice). If we imagine that Calgar has been mortally wounded, and is worried about Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade, so he gives the players Carte Blanche mandate to reconfigure the chapter into a Legion. One of the players is the new Chapter Master, the other are Captains, and the whole game, rather than being one of simple 'fight baddies' becomes one of politics and resource management - not to mention stealth and secrecy, because Heresy.

I think that'd be a good game. Especially if it's set up so that when the players succeed, the Legion turns out to be too big and unwieldy for it to be of any use, and they discover that there were practical reasons why Guilliman split the Legions up.

The key would be giving the players challenges that they could not achieve through sheer might; sure, they're ungodly powerful, but they have to sit at the table and persuade those AdMech that it's in the techpriest's best interests to supply 20,000 suits of power armour. You could also make a big deal of it if you introduced a morality system like Vampire: The Masquerade's: basically, the more the players throw their weight around, use intimidation and violence to resolve the issues, the more their men follow their lead... and the further into Khorne-worship the chapter slips.

Penalise them for taking the usual 'We'll just get bigger guns and that'll solve this' route.

I'd play that game.

[Denzark]

I've got to respectfully disagree with DAB's comment on supply. Logistically the problems of supplying materiel and geneseed to 1000 loyal chapters spread across the galaxy is far more difficult than massing this stuff for a centralised organisation. There would be massive benefits of economy of scale. Also, supplying legions during the Crusade was possible, but the stagnant galaxy has more compliant planets that would contribute.

In terms of growth, lets assume MM's proposition - that the Imperium 'wanted to': means the High Lords agree to do this, and overturn the proscription of legion sized forces. Then you've got the difficulties of bringing disparate chapters to heel, and assigning them to a legion. Not knowing your primogenitor is not a problem - because if terran and non-terran marines were brought together in Legions during the crusades, then re-aligned chapters in a 'new' legion could cope.

I think the biggest problem is that there is no such thing as a 'disengaged' chapter, they are all somewhat busy. So what happens when you try and withdraw these chapters to a legion massing point?

Also you would need to turn over the proscription of fleet/army being separate - which was a direct result of the heresy - to allow forces freedom of manoeuvre to react to the gaps the marines leave when massing in legions.

I think it could be done, yeah, but would probably take them several centuries, and then could only be done 1 legion at a time. Say, pull back a rump cadre of 10-15 chapters back to Ultramar and form them together and expand from there. Smaller than a 100k+ crusade legion, but a legion nonetheless.

Also, bear in mind that the Wolves never split down too far, so their numbers could already be legion strength.

[daboarder]

I've got to respectfully disagree with DAB's comment on supply. Logistically the problems of supplying materiel and geneseed to 1000 loyal chapters spread across the galaxy is far more difficult than massing this stuff for a centralised organisation. There would be massive benefits of economy of scale. Also, supplying legions during the Crusade was possible, but the stagnant galaxy has more compliant planets that would contribute.


yes but the imperium isn't supplying each of those chapters as a whole, each chapter is more like its own fief, responsible for its own supplies with its own pacts and agreements to different forge worlds and planets to get what it needs. For a legion to exist the imperium as a whole would need a unified supply source otherwise the legion would simply drain ever small fraction of support it came across.

even the black templar (closest to legion strength) operate as independent crusades, with each crusade being largely responsible for itself.

do agree with the rest of what you said though, the very structure of the imperium as a compartmentalised empire prevents it (which was the whole point)


Consider this, Armageddon, each Tyrannic War, The 13th, . These are all conflicts that involved legion sized forces (if not legion coherency) and they have completely strangled the support available to the various segmentums. each of the conflicts has the serious potential to completely drain the Imperium of all the men and material it can spare.
If they'd all canonically happened at once then the Imperium would be dead.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Wouldn't the Unforgiven reform into a legion? If any chapters, I'd imagine it would be them.

[Mr.Pickelz]

As Space Wolves were already a smaller legion, Their Chapter setup is similar to their 30k Legion counterpart. 12 companies (each are around a full chapter in strength) all with a centralized home-world. Should Leman Russ come back, I would think that they would form together instead of being spread out as they are currently, and Russ would scoff at the High Lords of Terra/Church personal that would object to it. Also, Space Wolves did lose a chunk of people with the Wolf Brothers successor that had to be killed off.
If Guillman ever comes back, he could bring the Ultramarines to Legion strength with his Ultramar region of space, there could be enough recruiting worlds needed for a mass induction of troops. Successor Chapters could be rolled into "Companies" of the Legion. I would think a lot of people would rally to a validated Primarch, especially someone like Guilleman. Now what would be interesting to see is Terra/ Imperium vs Ultramar/Ultramarines. The politics alone would be an interesting read.

[jifel]

I think that the Imperium is incapable of reuniting the 9 Legions, however I could see at least 3 of them being done. The Ultramarines would be the easiest. Supposedly 60% of the current chapters are Ultramarine successors, and are known to be. They have the best records of successors and the most. If 60% are Ultramarines, that's 600 chapters or 600,000 Marines. Thats a damn Legion right there. I could also, with the circumstances being right, see the Dark Angels being united. Again, the Unforgiven have rumors of never really disbanding, and I could easily see them being summoned for a war on Chaos. Finally, the Blood Angels. They have a large number of successors and all of them are known thanks to the Black Rage, and Dante has called conclaves of the successors before. I believe that if he had to, given a decade to sort things out, he could rally perhaps 100 chapters to his Legion banner. Again a common cause would be required, but I think either a WFB esque "End Times" or revenge on the Black Legion would be sufficient to do it.

Space Wolves have no successor, Iron Hands are small and have no figurehead. Salamanders and Raven Guard likewise don't have many successors or a single "Hero of the Imperium" to unite them. White Scars same problem, because they have few known successors. The only one that I am unsure of is the Imperial Fists... I could see Helbrecht being the one to make a Legion if anyone. And he honestly could. I believe there is fluff of him rallying upwards of a Dozen chapters to attack a Nid Hive fleet I believe. Give him a suitable task (the elimination of a Chaos Legion) and I believe he could rally a large number of chapters. But, I feel the Imperial Fists lack the number of successors to form a true "Legion". But I could see it.

[daboarder]

I would have put the ultramarines and there succesors under hardest, because the massive diversification of the chapters that come from their geneseed means that they have no similarity to bind them together like the Flaw or the Unforgiven

[DrLove42]

Theres a bit in the last Night Lord book where the Night Lord "legion" is pushed of Tsulaga. Its not the 41st Millenium but the legions have broken up into chapters.

The attack on the planet is perpetrated by EVERY Ultramarine Sucessor chapter. Socnear full legion strength

[StraightSilver]

As well as Space Wolves let's also not forget Black Templars who to all intents and purposes are still acting as a Legion.

If memory serves nobody knows exactly how many Black Templars there are as they are split into Crusades and some Crusades could almost even number the equivalent of a Chapter.

[Path Walker]

On a pure numbers game, yes, there are enough space marines to form 9 Legionnes Astartes.

Supply and logistics wise, it would take a great rehaul of the Imperium and how it works probably need to bring the Mechanicum back closer in line with them, however, in universe terms, that would likely take a person of great respect to lead, either the Emperor or possibly Dorn/Robute to push for, there are Inquisitorial factions pushing for the resurrection of the Emp or a Primarch for exactly this reason, to finish the Great Crusade.

[Psychosplodge]

The Dark Angels still operate more or less as a legion don't they?

Technologically there's no real reason the imperium couldn't do legions still.
It's the politics that prevent. All the different factions of the Imperium are more concerned with their own little corner of it.
Look at the examples from the BL/extended background universe.

Vandire
The cardinal that invaded Fenris
The sabbot worlds crusade post Slaydo.
More or less every book written that involves more than one organisation.
Anything that involves the mechanicus.

[daboarder]

Theres a bit in the last Night Lord book where the Night Lord "legion" is pushed of Tsulaga. Its not the 41st Millenium but the legions have broken up into chapters.

The attack on the planet is perpetrated by EVERY Ultramarine Sucessor chapter. Socnear full legion strength

aye, but thats like 32nd maybe 34th millenium, we're talking 8000 years or so later, even in marine terms thats a long time

- - - Updated - - -


On a pure numbers game, yes, there are enough space marines to form 9 Legionnes Astartes.

Supply and logistics wise, it would take a great rehaul of the Imperium and how it works probably need to bring the Mechanicum back closer in line with them, however, in universe terms, that would likely take a person of great respect to lead, either the Emperor or possibly Dorn/Robute to push for, there are Inquisitorial factions pushing for the resurrection of the Emp or a Primarch for exactly this reason, to finish the Great Crusade.

...holy ****, I agree with path, or at least partially. I disagree that iit is likely such a charismatic personage is found however

- - - Updated - - -


As well as Space Wolves let's also not forget Black Templars who to all intents and purposes are still acting as a Legion.

If memory serves nobody knows exactly how many Black Templars there are as they are split into Crusades and some Crusades could almost even number the equivalent of a Chapter.

Yes space wolves are still a "legion" though canon is they we're never a "big one" and post heresy they aren't nerely as large as the original. and black templars while being unkown in number were formed from HALF the imperial fist legion, and given the general decay of the imperium its unlikely they have increased in number since

[Path Walker]

Dark Angels form The Unforgiven and work closely together but they're still separate Chapters with their own home worlds and responsibilities.

The Legions didn't have a region of the Imperium to protect from threats, there job was crusading and conquering, the Imperium needs guarding now

[Psychosplodge]

But as evidenced numerous times during major campaigns they appear to follow the lead of the DA chapter mater, and iirc have been accused of "legion building" before.

[Denzark]

I would have put the ultramarines and there succesors under hardest, because the massive diversification of the chapters that come from their geneseed means that they have no similarity to bind them together like the Flaw or the Unforgiven

I thought current fluff is that UM are the most used as a primogenitor chapter because of the stability of their geneseed. And that those successors honour the UM as their forebearers.

[grimmas]

Logistically speaking it shouldn't be that much of an issue, after all Terra's population was enough to produce the 20 initial legions, which although they were smaller at that point than at the height of the crusade they were much bigger than current Chapters ( the Thousand Sons were considered close to extinction with only a 1000 marines).

It also worth considering that during the crusade there were at least twice as many marines which were used as the primary fighting force of the imperium rather than some guarded elite and the greater casualties were easily dealt with. The 40K restriction in numbers is created by the Codex Astrates rather than a lack of resources. The real issues are as Psychoslopdge says, political, who would carry enough clout to go against the High Lords and the Codex.

Of course the Codex is not the word of the Emperor but he isn't exactly chatty anymore

[Denzark]

MM stated in the OP ‘Legions of Old’. So to look at the exam question I have decided to give some thoughts as to the original loyalist legions and how easy it would be for each to reconstitute. Whilst I will not say how hard it would be I will give a yes/possibly/no imho. In order of ease:

1. Ultramarines. Many successor chapters, respecting their originators, shared gene-seed, huge industrial political base in Ultramar. The easiest sell for me. I’ll give it a yes.

2. Space Wolves. Refusal to split down post heresy. 1 second founding doomed to failure. Now, I know we argue about numbers, but according to lexicanum, Thousands Sons numbered 10k during heresy. Conventional military wisdom says you attack in 3:1 odds. So lets say 30k SW attacked Prospero in order to win. lexicanum says Wolf Brothers got half the SW fleet, stands to reason half the men. Leaving 15k. That matches lexicanum comments that a Great Company is like a Chapter – so 12 great companies – 12-15k (Great Wolf company is bigger). So Space Wolves are a yes for me and arguably already at legion strength beyond the smallest crusade legions.

3. Imperial Fists. Loads of second founding and successor chapters. Dead loyal to the imperium, so they would obey an order to merge. Black Templars already at massive increased strength compared to normal chapters. I’d say yes, Even if you said 50% of the successor chapter were willing/able to join and even if you count BT as 1k in strength, they would have 12k marines – again a smaller legion but beyond that of the smallest crusade legion.

4. Dark Angels. Masses of successor chapters, all loyal to the primogenitors based on their shared secret. I reckon it as a strong possibility – they may feel that en masse their actions chasing the fallen would be subject to too much scrutiny.

5. Blood Angels. Undeniably loyal but also flawed. Again, would they want this many flawed marines with the curse of Sanguinius in one band? Having said that, it would give them a scale of economy previously missing in trying to solve the problem. They do have quite a few successor chapters and banding together thus curbing the excesses of some like the flesh-tearers, would maybe take some of the external heat away from them. I would rate them as possibly.

6. White Scars. Lots of successors, minor deviance to codex, I rate them a possibly based on the fact they are clearly Mongol/Genghis Khanesque and as such would probably dig a horde.

7. Iron Hands. Small number of successors, quite tetchy, already lost a 3rd of the chapter to form Sons of Medusa in a schism. I reckon they would never go along with it – No.

8. Raven Guard. Very small numbers post heresy, although quite a few successors. Slowly degenerating geneseed. I reckon a no.

9. Salamanders. Highly divergent geneseed, small numbers after heresy, no known successors. A 7 chapter formation based on noctunian culture, I can’t see it expanding so no.

[Mr Mystery]

On the geneseed front, if we turn to the Storm of Iron novel, we know the Imperium has extensive reserves of Geneseed - of which roughly half got stolen by the Iron Warriors for their own purposes (probably to give to Abababababadon)

DB raises a good point about the sheer logistics though.

The geneseed seems good to go - there's plenty in storage. But equipping those Legions is quite possibly problematic, particularly on an ongoing basis.

Keep up the chatter folks!

[daboarder]

I thought current fluff is that UM are the most used as a primogenitor chapter because of the stability of their geneseed. And that those successors honour the UM as their forebearers.

Sorta.

i guees one of the best examples I can think of to make my point is the ultramarine story with the mortifactors (?) In it. Where they almost come to blows and all out conflict due to different doctrinal interpretations of the codex. It also elaborates how different the rituals of each chapter have become over time

Edit: also remember that a lot of the chapters dirty laundry is hearsay and rumour. Taking BA as an example. Theres no concrete evidence that they are flawed. To the rest of the imperium they merely appear overzealous with rumours that they ocasionally take things too far (its more elaborate than this but thats the jist)

[Tyrendian]

Sorta.

i guees one of the best examples I can think of to make my point is the ultramarine story with the mortifactors (?) In it. Where they almost come to blows and all out conflict due to different doctrinal interpretations of the codex. It also elaborates how different the rituals of each chapter have become over time

yeah I thought about those cases too - another one would be the Excoriators, the excessively flagellating Fists successor. Some Chapters seem just too deviant to ever be reintegrated without completely breaking them. But then, those are just a few cases, without too much impact on the total numbers involved at least in the Ultramarines and Fists successors. So these extreme problem cases might just go the way of the two lost Legions in the process...

[Denzark]

On reflection, are current marines not indoctrinated/geneseeded over a much longer period than original crusade troops?

That would increase the problems for sure.

[Nogle]

could it be done, absolutely. would it be done.....no.

Don't forget that the legions were split because after Horus it was decided no one (Primarchs even) should command a force the size of the Legions. That's a 10k year old rule that I would think would be harder to overcome than any technology problems......

......except if the Emperor or a Primarch returns and commands it.

[Death Shroud]

I think it depends on the founding chapter and the status of the High Lords of Terra. I think if the High Lords of Terra lost control then the most likely chapter to form a Legion again would be the Dark Angels. Three reasons for this.
1. They are a very independent and secretive chapter who tend to do their own thing, follow their own agenda and view their goals above that of the High Lords.
2. Their Primarch is most definitely not dead and is literally just waiting to wake up.
3. The Dark Angels successor chapters (The Unforgiven) still have very strong links to their founding chapter and follow it's organisational doctrines.

If Lion El Jonson wakes up I can see one of his first actions as reforming the successor chapters into one legion. Covertly if the Lion wants to keep his return a secret and overtly if he is making some kind of stand or power play.

[Subs]

What do you mean reconstitute, the Dark Angels haven't even realised they're suppose to have split up and not act like a Legion yet. And when you look at any of the successor chapters, in the most, when they fight along side their parental Chapter they act like 14th + companies anyway with the command structure always deferring to the original most famous Chapter.

[Aginor]

In my opinion I think if they did want to, it wouldn't be that hard to do. Especially for certain chapters. Ultimately I think the Ultramarines could do it relatively easily, since they have a great infrastructure, stable geneseed, etc...

I personally think they never would. Remember that it was Guilliman himself who ordered the breaking of the Legions, and the chapters with few to no successor chapters were because of decimation like the Isstavan survivors or the Space Wolves.

Also remember that the Badab War happened fairly recently (in Space Marine years), because of Legion Building, with Ultramarines and some Blood Angel successors fighting against it. So in my opinion just to not look like hypocrites these chapters would never go back to those numbers. Though as others have mentioned its not entirely unheard of for successor chapters to come home to temporarily help in the most dire of situations (Both of which being Tyranids threatening original 9 Homeworlds).

I think if a Tyranid invasion threatened Terra, you would see a mustering the likes of Ullanor.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

......except if the Emperor or a Primarch returns and commands it.
I think only Guilliman could successfully disband the chapter splitting. It's his rule, after all.

I think the Chaos Legions might have a better shot at it than the Imperials, or at least a better shot than some might think. Considering that they basically rule with iron powerfists, Abaddon is probably the only chaos lord who could command a full legion's worth of traitors, but he can pull it off. A powerful enough Lord could probably accumulate enough of a warband to torch a subsector. Their leaders don't have to be old, battle-tested, or even all that clever, so long as they can smash faces better than their peers. The good ones can then climb the Darwin ladder and basically claim all the marines in any warband they de-lorded. In the end, a Lord who set their mind to it could conceivably pump their warband up to full chapter strength. And if a Lord should find themselves in a scenario like in Throne of Lies, where you can unite the entire legion under the promise of settling an ancient score particular to that legion, you won't even need to bludgeon your underlings into submission to hit legion strength.

The fluff implies an equality between chapters and warbands, though the writers tend to avoid stating it explicitly. Loyalists and Chaos Marines generally play into a lot of dark reflection tropes. Loyalists break into chapters to sheathe their own power. Traitors break into warbands because they can't get along. Loyalists sell their lives defending the Imperium. Traitors kill each other. Loyalists find ancient technology. Traitors strike daemonic pacts. Loyalists requisition manpower and resources, traitors kidnap and steal, and so on and so forth. In the end, they pretty much match each other evenly. So anything the loyalists could do, the traitors could probably do just as well. They just have to go about it differently.

[Maxiums2807]

First of pardon the english i am from Denmark

As mentioned before I think only the Ultramarines would be able to reform into a Legion again, because they are the only chapter who has the industrial might to support a legion force. According to a couple of different HH novels they numbered aprox 250.000 marines during the heresy, also their sphere of influence was somewhat bigger during those times so the influx of new recruits was bigger.

My second bid would be the Space Wolves because they also have a large industrial base i the Fang. Heard some rumors sometime ago what they even may have a functional STC which would be a great asset for a legion.

Dark angles and black templars could make what i would call a semi-legion numbering around 5-6000 marines each if they combined all their in the case of DA unforgiven chapters and all the crusades the Black Templars Has.

[Ezaviel]

Wouldn't the Unforgiven reform into a legion? If any chapters, I'd imagine it would be them.

The Unforgiven already operate like a Legion to some degree. Nearly all the Unforgiven chapters maintain unusually close lines of communication back to the Angels, and Azrael regularly gives them direct orders to do stuff, which they almost always do, basically acting like old Legion Chapter Masters.

There has been speculation within the Inquisition that the Dark Angels are still functionally a legion for a while.

[Thornblood]

Ok, so my answer is pretty cagey. For some legions yes, for some legions no.

There are a few issues to consider that I will split into two broad categories; physical feasibility and political likelihood. I'm going to consider each loyal legion.

1. Dark Angels; Yes! On both fronts. The last dark Angels codex suggested that the dark Angels and successors are still secretly operating as a legion, with the same deathwing and ravenwing contingents being made up at legion strength from successor chapters. In terms of supply lines there could be a small issue.

5. White Scars; No! Politically, even before the heresy Jagheti ran his legion as I dependant warrior tribes. To face a common foe for an extended period of time it would be possible, but I doubt the successors would sacrifice their heritage, history, heraldry etc considering they don't believe in unity. In terms of physical supply lines, again no. No matter how barbaric/codex the successors are, it's not feasible to relocate them all back to mind is planus and local planets. The one exception being that if Jagehti returned they might band together with a 'come to heel or be destroyed' threat, and even then a lot would be destroyed. Proud warrior tradition and all that.

6. Space Wolves; yes! no (surviving) successors due to gene seed instability and reliance on Fenrisian support. See Battle of the Fang.

7. Imperial Fists; yes! I doubt the Templars would change their colour scheme, but for the sake of obedience to the emperor, that lot would do anything. It might take some good politicians and Inquisitors as Pugh and Lysander are pretty much blunt instruments of inspirational heroism, not unifying greater good types. helbrecht however...

9. Blood Angels; yes! Dante called all the successors together and who is a successor is pretty obvious due to the black rage and then all suffering together. They can definately work through their differences and work out the logistics.

10. Iron Hands; maybe. Politically a lot of the successors don't like the first founding chapter. However the iron father politics of having a council not a chapter master means the coy nils could possibly merge. The stubbornness and short tempers mean perhaps not. On the basis that each legionary can equip and maintain himself (even if that means owning servitors and servants and slaves), that it's feasible.

13. Ultramarines; probably not. Spread too far with too many successors and too complex, and non unifying politics. However, if Big Mac himself (Marneus Calgar) somehow became a high Lord of Terra, in sure they would all fall into line, provided that part of their remit was to protect their home system. At the mo, Big Mac becoming a High Lord is almost impossible, but some creative writing can cure that.

18. Salamanders; erm, yes? we don't have a straight answer if these guys have successors, but they are very nice guys, so I imagine they could all get along, and like the iron hands maintain and create their own equipment and genetics.

19. Raven Guard; probably yes; whilst Lyceus and Delivernace can support a legion, why would the secretive raven guard, raptors, black guard, dark Eagles, etc want to work alongside the berserk carcharodons, proud hawk lords, flamboyant flame Eagles etc etc. the split between independent stealthers and ferocious vanguard was already present in the heresy (with corax leaving a lot of termies and vanguard with Horus so he could concentrate on stealthy things- see hh book 3 from fw). A good plot could bring them together I feel, maybe the parent legion is in trouble and the rest could possibly save it somehow?? Even rejoined as a legion though, with stealthy secrets within secrets I'm sure each successor chapter would Aubery a secret force kept hidden from the rest of the legion.

20. Alpha Legion; no! SPOILERS!! So at the moment with the heresy novels Alpharius is consumed by pride and arrogance, and is ignoring the cabal. A sure sign to fall to chaos (even if the cabal did turn out to be evil/ish. Omegon however could be the saving grace. But he's beyond saving the whole alpha legion, what with voldorius, and possessed stuff, and daemon engines etc etc

in summary, for the most part, yes. It's just the numerical bulk of the ultrasmurfs, and the wild white scars that cause the biggest problem.

[WaywardSon5]

It may be the wishful thinking of an old Black Templars player, but I've always imagined the Templars actually have the numbers already, just scattered across the galaxy in hundreds or thousands of smaller crusade fleets. I have no fluff to back it up, just the hints in their codex that there's much more to the chapter than most suspect.

[Denzark]

20. Alpha Legion; no! SPOILERS!! So at the moment with the heresy novels Alpharius is consumed by pride and arrogance, and is ignoring the cabal. A sure sign to fall to chaos (even if the cabal did turn out to be evil/ish. Omegon however could be the saving grace. But he's beyond saving the whole alpha legion, what with voldorius, and possessed stuff, and daemon engines etc etc

in summary, for the most part, yes. It's just the numerical bulk of the ultrasmurfs, and the wild white scars that cause the biggest problem.

One of the twins is killed by Guilliman...

[Thornblood]

I really don't think Guilliman kills one of the twins.

In one of the short stories Alpharius leads an attack squad on a deniurg mining colony. His whole squad beloved its Alpharius, as does the sergeant/captain leading the team, who also believes he is Alpharius. Only at the end of the story do you discover that he had taken a blood transfusion from Alpharius that essentially turns himself into the primarch. I doubt it was Alpharius Guilliman killed. It's this bit of fluff that gave all the merch with the tag line on it;

I AM ALPHARIUS

Also, having now seen guillimans devious political mind in unremembered empire I'm sure he would happily report that he killed Alpharius for the morale boost, not to undermine his troops which saw him kill 'Alpharius', for one upmanship against Dorn who he just saved from the iron cage failure, and to report to the imperium that they killed an enemy primarch for the political/moral reasons. The alpha legion are so sneaky and devious, and Guilliman such a politically minded statesman that there is always the possibility that they never fought, but made the whole story up together for mutual gain. The reports of the Alpha Legion primarch being dead would certainly give him an edge when it comes to infiltrating and sneaking about. And don't forget the 'pure' legion within the larger alpha legion...

Basically what im saying is that you can't prove anything that Alpharius has or hasn't been involved in.

[grimmas]

As I see it the only obstacles to reforming the the Legions are political all the limits placed on chapter size come from the rules set down following the Horus Heresey not because the imperium is incapable of producing enough Astartes.

The Imperium has been tithing Gene seed for 10000 yrs they must have a big store of it by now, evidenced in Storm of Iron and of course it does suggest they are preparing for something. Yes they are much more selective of their recruits than in the Crusade but that because they don't need so many so they can afford to be.

It all about the tenants set out the the Codex Astartes restricting numbers it's going to take a leader of colossal ability to persuade both the Astartes themselves and the wider imperium to go against it. I can't see the High Lords giving up their power easily and Chapter Masters tend to be fiercely independent are they going to just hand their power over.

It's going to take the return of Primarchs or the Emperor finally popping his clogs and being reborn.

[daboarder]

The Imperium has been tithing Gene seed for 10000 yrs they must have a big store of it by now, evidenced in Storm of Iron and of course it does suggest they are preparing for something. Yes they are much more selective of their recruits than in the Crusade but that because they don't need so many so they can afford to be.

unlikely, part of the tithe is so that the adeptus biologis can monitor the chapters and look for corruption of the geneseed, part of it is used in the creation of new chapters and its not the kind of material that your likely to be able to freeze dry.

The geneseed is canonically one fo the rarest, most valuable, misunderstood and irreplaceable technologies in an age when about to go kaput.

I guess the big thing to remember in 40k is, we are in the end times, this setting we play in is a post apocalypse, the human race died on the sand of Istvaan and the Bridge of Horuses battle barge, the last 10,000 years of 40k history have been the slow swirl as it all circles the drain and takes its own sweet time to die.

[Katharon]

Organizationally speaking, the Ultramarines could viably reconstitute themselves into a Legion-sized force by calling upon the allegiance of their successor chapters. However, the action to do so would be widely controversial in the least and could only be mandated by the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines under the most dire of circumstances or at the request of the Lords of Terra. Any such gathering might be construed as an attempt by Ultramar to secede from the Imperium, overthrow the current regime, or somehow destabilize the Imperium at large; all necessitating that the Imperial Guard, other Astartes formations, and Titan Legions all be formed and led by Inquisitorial lords to put down what they would presume to be a rebellion -- if only out of self interest and survival instinct.

If the Lords of Terra were to create a new legion from scratch, it could be done but would take many years, likely centuries. I'd say 10,000~30,000 Astartes would be required in strength before it might be considered Legion-level. While it has been known for the Imperium to raise many new Chapters at once -- such as when they raised several chapters to set a watch upon the Eye of Terror (I forget the exact date, but before the Abyssal Crusade). Such an operation would have to be begun in the Sol System itself. Only the shipyards of Jupiter and the penultimate forge world of Mars would be able to handle the necessary creation of the arms, armour, vehicles, transports, and ships that such an undertaking would require. I imagine that such an undertaking would also require the creation of a veteran cadre of experienced Astartes -- taken from various Loyalist chapters such as the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, White Scars, etc -- to act as leadership for the beginning of the new legion.

The real question then comes to be: why would the Imperium wish to reconstitute the Legions at all? What purpose would it serve to have one or two Astartes legions? And it would only be one or two that might be created. As has been said by others, the Imperium does lack the raw material (gene seed) to create more than what I described above.

If I were to think about it and had the command power to use this new Astartes formation on the strategic level, they'd act as a mobile assault force. A legion force would be capable of taking on any single foe (with support from local PDF, Imperial Guard, and Inquisition assets), such as major Ork empires, the Tyranids, Necron Tomb worlds, etc. Targets such as the Tau Empire could be eradicated in a rather short, vicious campaign. So while the rest of the loyalist chapters and the Imperial Guard hold down the fort as they have for 10,000 years -- this new legion force could be the "fire brigade" that puts out all the major conflagrations one by one....however, that could lead to a great deal of danger. Who would lead the Legion? A chapter master? Dante? Or...maybe...a primarch believed to be lost or dead?

[Psychosplodge]

I'm sure there was fluff that said it took 50 years to produce a 1000 sets of organs from a single geneseed using rapid growth tubes in suitable test subjects.
possibly in one of those astartes background pieces in the old WD.

[grimmas]

unlikely, part of the tithe is so that the adeptus biologis can monitor the chapters and look for corruption of the geneseed, part of it is used in the creation of new chapters and its not the kind of material that your likely to be able to freeze dry.

The geneseed is canonically one fo the rarest, most valuable, misunderstood and irreplaceable technologies in an age when about to go kaput.

Your point is fair, however we do know there are stock piles of Geneseed hence Storm or Iron, which was written by Graham McNeil when it was his job to create the expanding narrative for 40K so it's a bit more solid than some BL stuff. Individual chapters also store a surplus of Gene seed the events in Blood Reaver cover this (and I think it's covered in a rules supliment as well). The imperium does have stasis technology that appears quite effective, Guilliman hasn't rotted in 8000 or so years, so storage may be possible.

Yes the Imperium is up sh** street but it remains to be seen what happens when the Golden Throne fails, will the demons from the web way destroy Terra, will the Emperor finally die and be reborn (he is a perpetual after all) or any of a myriad of things? I guess we'll only find out when GW really needs to drive sales 😉

[adurbe]

This could be a really good plot line to re-invigorate the universe.*

High lords of terra issue a decree to reform legions. Then are mysteriously killed. In reality it is carried out by the alpha legion.

Have 1 or 2 big 'goodie' chapters form a legion (ultra marines and imperial fists) forming a new legion. The remaining imperial powers declare them a heretical and have some infighting. * While the empire is having another civil war, the now depleted chaos legions (10k years of losing will have taken its toll!) *can get up to new tricks with both sides claiming they aid the other (while actually aiding neither particularly)

The important thing would be never to actually confirm which side was legitimately following the will of the empire, and which was tricked by the alpha legion. Keep us guessing!*

[This Dave]

The Ultramarines would be the best organized to do it and has more than enough successors to make it happen. But as their Primarch is the one that literally wrote the Codex Astartes prohibiting Legions I think it would cause too much of a schism in their own ranks to make the attempt. Unless of course Gulliman comes off his pedestal and commands it. The others are either too small with the exception of these three.

The Imperial Fists could. The Black Templars are in effect a Legion already. There are definately more than a Chapters worth of them and they have a single overall leader. And the Fists didn't like the whole Chapters thing already. It wouldn't take much convincing for them to reform.

The Unforgiven are essentially a Legion as well. Which technically independent every Chapter follows the Inner Circle. It's unlikely they would because of all the scrutiny they would receive, especially as they aren't always the most trusted Chapters to start with.

The Space Wolves never bothered with all the Chapter nonsense to start with. The major hurdle to them becoming a full on Legion is the tiny population of their recruiting planet of Fenris. However, as they are one of the more popular With the masses groups of Marines it would be the easiest for them to get other planets and entire army groups to pledge to them should they ever ask.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah, but so far in Horus Heresy, the Codex Astartes is simply a treatise on how one might go about, rather than how one should go about...

Now I'm wondering whether the Imperium has enough ships to relaunch the Great Crusade - and whether it is now too inherently fractured to pull itself together.

[Morgrim]

They might do it by accident if the Hive Fleet hits the neighbourhood of Terra. I imagine in such a situation large amounts from many Chapters will charge in to defend the system, and they're going to get grouped up and appointed leaders out of sheer necessity. Doubt those psuedo-Legions would last past the crisis though.

[Charon]

Ultramarines did it to get rid of the Night Lords on Tsagualsa... coming with all sucessor chapters for them.

[Mr Mystery]

They might do it by accident if the Hive Fleet hits the neighbourhood of Terra. I imagine in such a situation large amounts from many Chapters will charge in to defend the system, and they're going to get grouped up and appointed leaders out of sheer necessity. Doubt those psuedo-Legions would last past the crisis though.

Unless......incoming fanfic idea....

There's a Rogue Chapter Master around, who has kept up the pretence of loyalty (after all, Astartes don't really answer to anyone in the grand scheme of things, nor have to justify where they've been). Save Terra (because it would be. Sol is ridiculously well defended!) then instigate a military coup over the High Lords.....

[Psychosplodge]

But haven't you read Wolfblade? (iirc) They don't like Space Marines on Terra...

[Mr Mystery]

Nope.

I'm mostly a reader of Horus Heresy and the Warhammer books. Never really got into the 40k ones. Dunno why, I've enjoyed the ones I have read!

[Psychosplodge]

Some are good, some are terrible.
The only way to really tell is to ask people that's read them, or stick to the consistent authors.

[Katharon]

If there is one thing we've learned, it's that there will always be more Space Marine Chapters and more Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy assets on hand to prevent any single Space Marine chapter master from overthrowing the high lords.

[Morgrim]

But haven't you read Wolfblade? (iirc) They don't like Space Marines on Terra...
I have a hunch that if the Hive Fleet was bearing down on the solar system, the High Lords would change their mind about that really fast. :P

[Psychosplodge]

Well of course, but needs must...

[grimmas]

Well of course, but needs must...

Well if Talon of Horus is to be believe those "needs" might well be the Black Legion rampaging towards Terra. I don't fancy a motley selection on chapters having the cohesion to stop them.

[Dashman]

Hey

Ive ghosted on the forums long enough time to write something!

The gene seed tax - every chapter has to pay terra an amount of its geneseed to supply terra for new foundings, the chapters themselfs may divide and make new ones and its actually the lords of terra that will produce and demand a new founding to beef up numbers or deal with periods of termoil most of the imperial fleet - the geneseed key production its all based on terra who basically direct everything from afar still as so few in the field can be trusted.

If terra - who are quite opposed to the idea of legions as giving any one person that much power - were considered a good idea or something that is required they would easily have the amounts required to setup new legions based sololy on the number of viable humans they can implant.

They have geneseed from the tratior legions kicking about as well from 30k era but would'nt dare use it (or perhaps they do and dont tell anyone - wink wink insert certain chapters here) If the Imperium of man really got in trouble that terra started getting threated you would see massed space marines making a glorious return - a prolonged attack is the last thing addandon would do - hes building his forces for a shock attack only all might assault stright to the heart of the empire - he knows the imperium could simply drown him in bodies if it needed too another great space marine crusade.

Admittly it would end in tears but for a thousand years it would be glorious but terra really isnt intreasted and thats what its all about the high lords so long as the lords of terra are content thats all that matters the rest of the universe can quite litterly... burn