Blood Angels Storm harbinger Points cost experiment

[Denzark]

K peeps.

I was bored so I tried a bit of an experiment. In the old Chapter approved, Jervis gave his vehicle design rules. So, I fed in the latest rumoured stats of the Blood Angels Storrm Harbinger, as posted on BoLS, to see what we would get. It won’t be an exact science so I will explain where I fudge:

1. Pick type. Its not a flyer, a DE ‘super-raider’ in the same article comes in as a Light Vehicle, so I will go with that.
2. Pick Size: Normal, based on transport.
3. Pick Armour: F13, S11, R 10. Fudge factor – only Tank and walker types are allowed more than 12 on any facing – points cost = F13=30 + 2x S11 (30) = 60 +R10 (10) = 70pts
4. Open topped or fully armoured? Well it says flyers are fully armoured for no points modifier and this is closest to that –I presume it is supposed to come from orbit so will go with it.
5. Speed – fast vs. Normal size = +20pts total = 90pts.
6. Weapons. Here a fudge factor – the pinning, rending etc, but only 18” range. So I have let the pinning rending rule out the 18” loss, and counted it as 2 assault cannons (its H8) so at BS4, an Assault Cannon costs 35 points, x 2 = 70 – TL comes in at +50% so 105pts for weapon = 195pts total.
7. Characteristics – BS4
8. Special Options: Skimmer +20pts = 215pts. Transport = +1 per capacity so +16pts =231pts. Fudge factor – normal size vehicles using these rules (which includes LRs) can only carry 10. Orbital Lander to do Deep Strike +30pts = 261pts.
9. Work out costs and category = 261pts (before weapon options). “Normal sized tanks and Light Vehicles with no more than 50pts of weapons and the transport upgrade may be taken as transport upgrades otherwise are heavy support”

So I give you, a 261pt base cost Heavy Support choice.

Some conclusions – Jervis states he deliberately created a system so that what you designed would be more expensive than ‘off the shelf’ as you can focus it as you want. Yes this was 3rd Ed. But, I think a loose comparance is possible, particularly given a base LR costs the same as 3rd ed – 250pts. People have touted this as the same points as a colossus – 140pts.

Given it is rumoured to allow Jump Troops to assault out of, this is in effect a light armoured LR Crusader, that Deep Strikes and Flies (Or a hugely pimped up Land Speeder Storm). I think at 140 It is a steal, probably undercosted, and probably in line with the trend of cool vehicles being cheap in list points cost to encourage real life expense to be ignored, for those who take part in (economic) Warhammer 40K.
Or, if I may spin the wheel, another example of 5ed vehs coming down in points cost in a new codex – ‘Creep’ anyone?

[Duke]

I was never a strong believer in Codex Creep... But with the rumours surrounding BA and the fact that trygons/ valkeries are now in standard codexies I am a believer.

I do think that 140 is about right though... Any more any it is "too expensive," to include in lists. From what I have heard an 8 man assault squad with P.wep, inferno pistol and M. gun in a tantalus run somewhere around 350 pts. If you added another 100 pts nobody would take the thing. 450 points for a troops squad, no thank you.

Duke

[Sir Biscuit]

It's also looking like assault squads need to be 10 man to get access to special weapons. Since you can only fit 8 in the Harbringer, it forfeits those.

It's a nasty deep strike unit, but to me it looks like the definition of "one shot".

[pgarfunkle]

It's also looking like assault squads need to be 10 man to get access to special weapons. Since you can only fit 8 in the Harbringer, it forfeits those.

I spotted that as I was looking through the leaked codex last night. However VAS can still take specials no matter their size and if you field Dante they count as troops :)

Provided the codex floating about is real lol

[Lerra]

As far as I know, only one VAS squad is counted as scoring if Dante is taken, and it's not a troops choice - just a scoring elite.

[Duke]

It's also looking like assault squads need to be 10 man to get access to special weapons. Since you can only fit 8 in the Harbringer, it forfeits those.

It's a nasty deep strike unit, but to me it looks like the definition of "one shot".

Its every fifth model that can have an assault weapon... 10 gets two (as per rumors.)

Duke

[Sir Biscuit]

Depends on your rumors. I'm going off the leaked codex, and in that you don't get any speciial weapons until you hit ten men, and then you are allowed two.

[pgarfunkle]

For some reason when I got the leaked codex I got two copies, both uploaded by the same person but the second said that it was edited for typos etc. Anyway one states that if squads no. 10 men up to 2 may take special weapons while the states as Duke says every 5th model.
Lerra from what I've read the Archangel rule states that if Dante is fielded any VAS count as troops and if you field any commander (i.e Dante, Seth, Tycho) then one VAS may count as honour guard and does not count against your elites allowance and is provided extra wargear options.

[sangrail777]

with the leaked codex putting the SH at 140 and figure 10 points for a melta thats still enough firepower to back up my 8 man JP squads even without the 1 or 2 special weapons. decent trade off if you ask me. I sure won't complain itf it's true.

[Denzark]

Thank you Blood Angel Fanboys! I am glad you honour my hard work by turning it into an annex to the 300+ reply thread on Blood Angels rumours!

10 men for special weapons indeed - not that I am one to talk about going off topic but what about a set to over the fact that everyones favourite space vampires have got a hideously underpriced shiny toy?????????????????????????????:mad:

[Cryl]

Pointswise I'd guess its pretty much in line with the IG Valk. Although it is substantially better in some ways, front AV14, BS4 and full of assault marines rather than IG, it does lack the ranged heavy firepower that a Valk / Vendetta can have and has AV11 side armour which isn't going to last all that long against anything that wants it dead. The biggest threat it brings is deepstriking assault marines that can hit you with chainswords on the turn they arrive.

Cost wise is it right? I agree it's probably in line with current 'cool' vehicles being slightly cheaper than they should be but I don't think you can up the points cost a lot without increasing that woeful side AV. Perhapssomething like 160 is more correct than 140 though?

[RocketRollRebel]

I don't know I think 140 for these bad boys feels a little light at the moment. I mean only 10 pts more than a valk/vendetta (no one uses the base un upgraded load out) for something that has more fire power and is carrying scarier dudes? I mean I guess I should wait and see but I think this thing is going to be epic awesome. I mean its effectively got a 30" range on the gun which is great at killing anything on the table.

Dont get me wrong as a BA player I'm excited as hell for the new toys. At the same time its got my IG a little unsettled at the prospect of facing down an army of these guys. I'm not crying "creep creep creep", (cuz that's such annoying bs when I hear that crap every time a new codex drops) but this guy has given me pause. Maybe I'm worrying too much tho. I thought Trygons were going to be ruining my day like nobody's business but they turned out to be not so bad at all.

What that does get me thinking is Air Cav BA is going to be the cool new kid at school. Air cav IG seems kinda gimmicky and never seems to do all that well on the table but I think air cav BA is going to have a lot of awesome potential.

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah I personally can't wait to get my hands on the new models and Codex, I think significantly more than 140 pts might put people off fielding them as they are likely to be kind of one hit wonders. Also are troops able to move after climbing out of a deep striking SH from what we know? If not that will limit their effective range especially as the SH will be subject to normal DS rules unlike a drop pod.

[MVBrandt]

The problems with the Storm Harbinger revolve around the fact that it cannot be spammed effectively.

It isn't comparable at all in competitiveness or potency with, say, a Vendetta, which can either alpha strike a demo vet squad into an opponent's chimera or rhino castle on turn 1 and simultaneously light up some random tank via side armor shots, OR sit back 48" away and pot shot transports all game.

The main problem is that it is a dedicated transport. Instead of "oh my army is done my guys all have transports and I'm at 1500 points, let's buy a handful of harbingers to get up to 2k," it's "to get a harbinger, I have to buy a unit ... I can either make it an utterly crappy unit and still pay over 230 points OR I can make it a fully equipped and proper unit and pay over 350 points."

Imagine running up against 5 fully kitted assault squads in 5 harbingers with an HQ and ... that's IT at 1850-2k ... not exactly terrifying.

Also, while the harbinger will almost always be able to reach out and touch something with that nasty nasty gun it has and a 30" effective range, it's going to struggle to survive thereafter in a way that other big flying guns like the Vendetta don't have to worry about. By that I mean, if you're 18" away from the enemy army, and they've got a transport w/ a melta or two inside alive after your round of fire, it's going to move 12" disembark and put a half range melta shot or 3 at your harbinger, and your harbinger may very well die.

It's expensive, it's cool, it has a big gun and guys can assault out of it. It's a fast skimmer, and it's AV13 front. Don't let it go to your heads. Excellent BA lists will have 1-3 of them AT MOST, and IMO the very best BA builds won't have them at all ... no, really.

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah the SH will have it's strengths and weakness like everything else, however I'm looking forward to including 1 or 2 in my army for a while, at least until I get bored of the coolness factor lol.

[Lerra]

I agree with MV. I think we'll see lists that have one Storm Harbinger for the big HQ squad, but we won't see many armies with more than 1-2, and most builds won't use any. Basically it's filling the role of a land raider crusader - a pricey transport for that big hammer unit.

[Duke]

The lists that I have made/ Seen have 2 of them and here is why.
1- It is only AV 13 so a solo SH will get smoked early.
2- Forces opponent to split fire, but not too expensive.
3- Starting to get expensive (approx 1000 points) and doesn't provide enough Bang for the extra cost

I agree that most lists will include 2. But after the coolness factor is gone I could see most lists with Assault Marines in free Rhinos and 2 Assault Weapons.

DUKE

BIG P.S.- Big Red has asked us to not post things like "I have the Leaked Codex," Talking about what is 'rumoured to be in it,' is one thing, but remember to not provide links on where to get it or to say that you have it. We don't want anyone getting yelled at... Unless its Buffo ;)

[Madness]

So we can say "in the copy of the leaked codex BuFFo sent me", right?

[Duke]

So we can say "in the copy of the leaked codex BuFFo sent me", right?

Ummm, errrmmm .... Yes! lol

Duke

[RocketRollRebel]

Yeah I guess you are right and it isnt that bad. I was thinking a list of a pair of them with a couple units of assault marines and a bunch of drop podding fun guys

[the jeske]

Something like a seth build seth + libby dread in pod 2 landers one with HG [and seth] other with DC . first dread drops on top of mecha formation, landers move 12" and disembark the units, libby dread opens up the transports with shock wave [and let us wait for the ruling how it affects skimers] HG and DC fleet and then charge[mulit if possible] . next turn the two RAS charge in to help . good two turn game against sob.

[RocketRollRebel]

Something like a seth build seth + libby dread in pod 2 landers one with HG [and seth] other with DC . first dread drops on top of mecha formation, landers move 12" and disembark the units, libby dread opens up the transports with shock wave [and let us wait for the ruling how it affects skimers] HG and DC fleet and then charge[mulit if possible] . next turn the two RAS charge in to help . good two turn game against sob.

While I do like Seth rules wise, I play BA and prefer their fluff to FT so I dont know if I'll use him beyond trying him once or twice. But other than that thats how my list is going to be looking hopefully. I'm also really hoping that I wont feel required to take a named hq with this new codex. As much as I like them, I'm getting sick of taking Dante/Corbs constantly! I want to make a fluffy home made Captain or something for once and not be handicapping my self!