750p Space marine troubles

[Eldarkoen]

Hey there Tactictians and experts. I was wondering if this should be in army lists or tactics. But I'm having a dilemma.

I usually play my friends who play Tyranid and Necrons against my own Space marines. Thing is I keep on falling short on unit numbers and sheer force that I can pack in a 750p army. Can you guys help me build an army list that is generaly good against both or rather a good allround list in 750p with the Imperial fists tactics.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

[Tyrendian]

would be good to know what models you have access to first, and what you tried so far... also, ForgeWorld? because that kind of low points level makes a Contemptor that much more appealing in my eyes (less credible threats to stop it, be it from stomping forward or dakka'ing the life out of something with dual Kheres...), let alone a Sicaran that will pretty much murderate most things they can bring...

[Reldane]

in smaller points games I would recommend focusing on the bones of your army rather than shiny extras; for example although it might be tempting to take a chapter master and give him a melee weapon and the shield eternal that single model can easily be 30% of your army by himself and there just won't be enough turns for him to do enough to be worth that higher percentage investment. Try to avoid any unnecessary upgrades, with every one think will this actually help? is there a cheaper equivalent?

in the earlier example: do I need ap2? would an ap3 melee weapon be enough. do I need to worry about Instant death, or will a regular stormshield suffice? how important is 1 attack and 1 wound, maybe those points could buy half a tactical squad.

if flyers are a problem the aegis defense line makes a semi reliable counter with the quad gun, if hordes concern you then tactical squads are cheep and fairly durable at smaller points (unless facing Eldar of Tempestus), sternguard come with ammo types to deal with most non vehicles and can take combi weapons to get access to a couple of metla shots as a one off to deal with vehicles.

hope some of that advice can help

[SnakeChisler]

For a Marine list in the 750 mark I start with the following

2* 5 man Tac squads in HB Razorbacks sqts have Melta Bombs

2 * 2 HB speeders

Then add what you want after that

The main reason for the speeders & Razors is they are not static and have decent range at 36" as well as being able to move and shoot at full BS

[Denzark]

Librarian - less than 100 points.
Scouts up to 300 points.
Typhon Heavy Siege Tank - 350 points stock.

You'll still have some points for options and if the scouts have sniper big gribblies will be no problem.

[Path Walker]

Good all round Captain with a Power Fist and the Shield Eternal, full 10 Marine Tactical squad with your choice of heavy and specials plasma gun and missles are always good, and some sniper scouts should fit into 750. Captain can take on most things in combat with that set up, the tacticals are survivable at those points and will be able to deal some good close up reliable fire power and the scouts can concentrate on any high toughness things

[Eldarkoen]

Tnx all for replying with some thoughts. I do have allot of 40k, but only 40k so no HH stuff. Just wanted to know what I should update my army with so I can be a little more competitive.

This is what I came up with. What are your thoughts? Let me know.

750p Crimson Heralds (Imp Fists tactics)
Librarian (65pts)
••••Power Armour [Boltgun, Force Sword]

+ Troops (320pts) +

Tactical Squad (170pts) [Meltagun (10pts), 4x Space Marine (56pts)]
••••Razorback (75pts) [Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (20pts)]
••••Space Marine Sergeant (29pts) [Bolt pistol, Combi-Melta (10pts), Melta Bombs (5pts)]

Tactical Squad (150pts) [Meltagun (10pts), 4x Space Marine (56pts)]
••••Razorback (55pts) [Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter]
••••Space Marine Sergeant (29pts) [Bolt pistol, Combi-melta(10pts), Melta Bombs (5pts)]

+ Fast Attack (235pts) +

Land Speeder Squadron (100pts)
Land Speeder (50pts) [Heavy Bolter]
Land Speeder (50pts) [Heavy Bolter]

Land Speeder Squadron (135pts)
Land Speeder (60pts) [Multi-Melta (10pts)]
Land Speeder (75pts) [Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher (25pts)]

+ Heavy Support (130pts) +
Devastator Squad (130pts) [2x Lascannon (40pts), Missile Launcher (15pts), 4x Space Marine (56pts)]
Space Marine Sergeant (19pts) [Bolt pistol, Storm Bolter (5pts)]

[Tyrendian]

the Libby is a solid HQ I'd say - cheap and supporty. Tacs are never a bad thing, and the meltas give you tools do deal with nasty things if and when your Devs get shut down.
You might be overdoing it a bit on the Speeders in my opinion - their main downside is that they are extremely fragile, even to very basic shooting, so investing a third of your points into something that at least 'crons can deal with very very easily might not be the best thing. What you might want to use instead is a big scary that can keep the heat off your Tacs and Devs. Maybe an Ironclad drop-podding into enemy lines? With a bit of fiddling, that should still leave you room for a Speeder... Alternatively, it's not like Contemptors (or Sicarans for that matter) were strictly 30k - they are perfectly legal in 40k as well...

[Path Walker]

Remember, most missions now are about grabbing objectives that can change quickly, while anything can grab an objective, Troops in the Combined Arms Detachment are better than anyone else at it, you might want to consider having more troops on the table, maybe drop a Speeder

[Reldane]

I can't quite get your numbers to balance. the two tactical squads look identical but have different points costs written down. edit: saw the second razorback was a heavy bolter version

this would be my variation on your list

HQ
(75) Librarian (level 1), power armour combi (melta/plasma)

Troops
(150) 5 man tactical squad, plasma gun, combi (melta/plasma) on Sargent in a Razorback with Heavy Bolter
(150) 5 man tactical squad, plasma gun, combi (melta/plasma) on Sargent in a Razorback with Heavy Bolter

Elites
(120) Dreadnaught with two twinlinked Autocannons

Fast attack
(60) Landspeeder with two Heavy bolters
(60) Landspeeder with two Heavy bolters

Heavy support
(130) 5 man Devastor squad with 4 Missile launchers

[Eldarkoen]

Problem I find is that Necrons are so good at detroying armor (if they want). Even their basic firearm is enough to get rid of a tank. So I thought about the idear of dropping that Ironclad, but It would have to come first turn and will I be destroying something of similar value and first cron turn the dread is gone.
Allso like your idea Reldane, but one shot from a destroyer with lascannon and that Autocannon dread is practicly useless. But what then.
Speeders are support fire but can only do something when they are out of the tanks. And AV 13 is hard to crack on ALL vehicles.
What is most effective for those AV 13 shields. Dev squads with lascannons?

[SnakeChisler]

I'd recommend assault weapons on your Tactical squad as well(Plasma or Melta)

TL Asaault Cannon on your razor is too expensive so run it as a Rhino if you cant put a HB on it

Additional HB on the speeders is 10 points I've a magnet on the bottom om mine looks cool and for Wraiths / Large warrior squads you need volume of fire

Redlane's list is pretty much what I'd recommend as your entire gunline has 36" or greater range Cron firepower is virtually all 24" so your gonna get a couple of rounds shooting in if he decides to charge forward and you should be mobile enough to pick your fights.

The best way of dealing with Vehicles that have Jink in 7th is to punch them

Tactically your Librarian is a big asset and loadout + Discipline choice are key, neither Crons nor Tau can block offensive shooting spells. With 1 power level aim to be using Warp charge 1 powers while taking divination is tempting the primaris at warp 2 is difficult to get off successfully & Telepath against crons is a waste due to their Leadership 10 across the board.

Psychic Shriek could be useful against Tau though if they have a RipTide but for all round troop Killyness then Pyro is a safe choice with its Heavy Flamer and a range of ignores cover options and don't forget that force will reduce Necron RP by -1 due to its instant death status.

Favorite spell in Pyro is the melta beam
Favorite in Telepathy is Shrouded (I don't count invisibility its just OP and distorts the game)

[Eldarkoen]

I've been talking to some friends and came up with this as well.

What do you think?

HQ
Librarian, boltgun, power sword. (65p)

Troops
5 Marines + Meltagun, Serg + Combimelta + Razorback TL HB (150p)
5 Marines + Meltagun, Serg + Combimelta + Droppod (130p)

Elite
Dreadnought + MM + Droppod (135p)
Dreadnought + MM + Droppod (135p)

Heavy
5 Marines, Serg, 3 Lascannon, 1 Plasma cannon (145p)

Total 750p

[Tyrendian]

that looks plausible as well, and gives you more options to deal with the Crons' AV13 (mainly by dropping Meltas in their rear...)
but maybe now we all are leaning too much in one direction - this list really doesn't have many good tools to deal with larg(ish) numbers of infantry. One idea here might be to "downgrade" the Devs to the more flexible Missile Launchers - with so many Meltas, two of them in their face turn 1, I don't think you really need the Lascannon. Maybe even invest the points thus saved into a Flamer for one of the Dreads - those are a great way to threaten any Troops he might be hiding somewhere, especially when you don't have too many great targets for the Meltas. Would bring the list back to something more balanced I think...

[Eldarkoen]

Tnx Tyrendian. The idear of yours is promising. Im going to try it out. Tnx for all the help so far.

[Reldane]

I would generally advise against mixing weapons in squads, where you can avoid it. what you want to shoot lascannons at are likely not the same targets as your plasma cannon. I'd agree with Tyrendian and give them a set of missile launchers

[Dave Mcturk]

melta melta melta.

an assault weapon that doesnt kill the user and stop fnp on T4 and fries vehicles

and if you can bear the cheese

multi-melta ! multi-melta ! multi-melta ! because you can ?

never rally rate marine las-cannon or ML because it limits your mobility

imo razorbacks are pretty good in the absence of lance weapons :(

get them an aegis line and youve got something to protect you from the gauss

like the dreads in pods trick - but it might only work once ! and is very dodgy against certain armies [so dangerous to build a reliance on it]

[Tyrendian]

melta melta melta.

an assault weapon that doesnt kill the user and stop fnp on T4 and fries vehicles

and if you can bear the cheese

multi-melta ! multi-melta ! multi-melta ! because you can ?

never rally rate marine las-cannon or ML because it limits your mobility

imo razorbacks are pretty good in the absence of lance weapons :(

get them an aegis line and youve got something to protect you from the gauss

like the dreads in pods trick - but it might only work once ! and is very dodgy against certain armies [so dangerous to build a reliance on it]

...what do Razorbacks have to do with Lance?
And yes, the DropDreads can fail completely, and they can be countered - of course they can. There is nothing that can't, especially in a Take All Comers list as we try to build it here. The reason why I think they are a good option is that they are a) rather unlikely to do nothing at all, what with there being two of them and them having a decent shooting attack against both heavy targets and (with the Flamer at least) units and b) not at all easy to deal with for another balanced 750pts list, even Necrons arguably (they need a lot of shots to glance one to death - some 15 or so Warriors in short range for example, a significant investment - more than the Dread in fact), which is in rather stark contrast to say a pair of Land Speeders (die to most things that can get a shot on them, and you won't be able to hide them from all return fire if you want them to shoot anything themselves) or a pair of Razorbacks rumbling up the table plus their contents (five or six normal Marines aren't all that scary... and the Libby will die like just another two dudes...).
On the Meltas I wholeheartedly agree though, and the Aegis in itself is also a very solid idea - I just don't think the list as we had it there really needs it since there should be enough terrain to hide a Dev squad and a Razorback/Tac squad behind, and that's everything that isn't coming in via Drop Pod.