Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?

[Lost Vyper]

Yeah...

When a unit gets TOO much of everything...yesterday, we had a game with my friend and he wanted to proxy the Sicaran Battle Tank and since we wasn´t filming, i was cool with it. BUT, the rules for that, oh my godz! Accelerator Autocannon first. Its a 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6, Rending, with rapid tracking (ignores jink saves). Yeah AND twin-linked. You can get a relic to get TANK HUNTER, and for larger games another, that can knock of Haywire. Once / game Interceptor/Skyfire...Did i mention the Ceramic Plating option? And AV13 ALL AROUND...this is when Forge World just puts EVERYTHING in to one tank. I told my friend, that this could be the unit (get a character, was it a Chaplain? Can´t remember and you can get THREE of these), that i would just not play against. And it´s cheap without any upgrades, about a predator with all lascannons...thank the dicegodz my friend thought it "a bit" OP too...i sometimes use my Forge World Hornet´s and even thou they are cheap and great, you can actually KILL THEM...they have weaknesses....that tank does not...that´s the kind of unit that takes the fun out of the game IMHO...

Does someone use these? How does the opponent look like, when i whip it out of the case? Are these used in some tournaments?

- Lost Vyper

[SgtJoo]

Honestly, I'm reading this and all I'm hearing is that you're upset that there's a hard counter to eldar skimmer shenanigans. I'll admit that I'm shocked that the guy who has admitted to fielding one of the most undercosted FW units (The Hornet) is complaining about the Sicaran. That said, not even close mate, it still dies, just like any other unit. Is it really good in the current meta? Heck yes! It's great for killing WS and their ilk.

Imperials have a fairly easy time killing it, Lascannons work great! Heck, Missiles will do in a pinch, and while it may have AC, the thing is, it's only AV 13 so Melta can still Pen, and if it does, there's a solid chance you're going to knock the thing out of the fight. From an Eldar Perspective (since that seems to be what you play), Lances work great, Haywire is always a solid choice, even if he does give it the legacy for 4++ vs haywire, and again, Melta is never a bad option.

[Tokunator]

It is strong, no doubt about it, but it is not over-powered. Hornets with 4 S8 AP2 shots for 80 points are a completely different league of broken.

With all the upgrades you mention, it comes close to 200 points and all it does is kill skimmers. Granted, it does that very well, but without AP1-2 on the main gun, it has to go through all hull points the hard way (no, Rending does not give you AP2 against vehicles). Put it against bikers with a Chapter Master with Shield Eternal, a Wolfstar or a Tau Triptide list and all it does is bounce off as it fails to chew through their saves fast enough.

It is a simple hard counter for Eldar, but as a player whose 15.000 points of Eldar gather dust because they are just too boring to play, we might need a hard counter to make tournaments interesting again.

[Mr Mystery]

Its not Super Heavy.

It's a Relic, so unlikely to face many in a single army.

It ain't cheap cash wise (I don't do proxies myself, nor really allow in the general run of things. Especially given the Sicaran is a uniquely sized tank).

As others have said, it's really not that hard to drop it either.

[DrLove42]

Call the Waaahbulance. Youre playing Eldar, one of the top power armies and field Hornets, one of the strongest Fw units. Get a grip
Not to mention Eldar have one of the most effective anti Av13 long range weapons in the game - a bright lance.


With that said I dont know the rites of war from that book, but id check he can add Tank Hunters amd the AA thing.

[Lost Vyper]

1) My opinion, but i´ll say that the Necron OR CSM player would also despise the unit
2) Price = Value, gimme a better choice, which unit is more OP? And if the answer is a Wave Serpent, don´t bother, we have heard enough cries about that...
3) As i said, the Hornet´s ARE great, they´ll still fall WAY faster
4) If the Bright Lance is the best option to deal with it --> Wave Serpent spam --> more crying. And even i, as an Eldar player, don´t enjoy spamming WS´s. I use max two in a game.

As for the good, valid points, yep Forge World is expensive (i know) and we don´t normally use Super Heavies in regular, just for that OP factor. If he had add Creramic Plating, that would have dudded the Meltas. I had Fire Dragons in a Raider ready to WWP next to it, but he protected the Sicaran with a Bikesquad with Grav-guns AND he had yet to use the Interceptor rule. I couldn´t risk that Raider blowing up and loosing few meltas and maybe even get pinned in the process.

So, summa summarum, people think that Hornet´s are more OP than Sicaran? And Eldar players don´t have any place to ask questions or complain about things that are clearly way OP? Okay, truly noted...

- Lost Vyper

[DWest]

Thing is, the Sicaran isn't very OP, except in the specific situation of countering flyers or skimmers. Additionally, the Interceptor + Skyfire ability comes from the Legacies of Glory, so it could be purchased for any vehicle in a Space Marine (BA/DA/SW) army. It just happens to get thrown on a Sicaran most often, because the Legacy of Sarosh says "choose 1 weapon to gain these abilities", and the Sicaran has the most shots for a single gun. You could easily buy the Sarosh title for a Vindicator, if you wanted to make Reserves suicidal.

Also, this isn't well known, seeing as it's a Forgeworld FAQ, but the Sicaran is actually 13/12/12 for AV- the 13 all-around in IA 2 is a misprint.

[energongoodie]

Just a quickie on the armour values from forgeworlds downloads section


IMPERIAL ARMOUR VOLUME TWO – SECOND EDITION
CLARIFICATIONS AND ERRATA – UPDATED 20-12-2013
ERRATA
Relic Sicaran Battle Tank (page 79)
The Side and Rear Armour values of the Relic Sicaran Battle Tank are 12.

[Myreknight]

1) My opinion, but i´ll say that the Necron OR CSM player would also despise the unit
2) Price = Value, gimme a better choice, which unit is more OP? And if the answer is a Wave Serpent, don´t bother, we have heard enough cries about that...
3) As i said, the Hornet´s ARE great, they´ll still fall WAY faster
4) If the Bright Lance is the best option to deal with it --> Wave Serpent spam --> more crying. And even i, as an Eldar player, don´t enjoy spamming WS´s. I use max two in a game.

As for the good, valid points, yep Forge World is expensive (i know) and we don´t normally use Super Heavies in regular, just for that OP factor. If he had add Creramic Plating, that would have dudded the Meltas. I had Fire Dragons in a Raider ready to WWP next to it, but he protected the Sicaran with a Bikesquad with Grav-guns AND he had yet to use the Interceptor rule. I couldn´t risk that Raider blowing up and loosing few meltas and maybe even get pinned in the process.

So, summa summarum, people think that Hornet´s are more OP than Sicaran? And Eldar players don´t have any place to ask questions or complain about things that are clearly way OP? Okay, truly noted...

- Lost Vyper

My buddy uses two sicaran in his lists as a standard. My CSM don't really have more problems with these they then do anything else really. I have plenty of ways to deal with them.
Also, why shouldn't we bother about the wave serpent? You're asking for an example and that's a very good one. Just because we've known for a long time that it's undercosted means it can't be a good example? If you start tacking all those upgrades on the sicaran it starts to get expensive fast, and even if all you have is ways to strip HP doesn't it just have 3?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I was hoping for a decent thread, but this is just a whinefest. Anything with a 3+ Armour or AV14 will laugh at this, and that Tank Hunter upgrade is one per Army IIRC.

Not to mention it'd be severely hurt by a Crew Stunned/Shaken result.

[Path Walker]

yeah, sorry dude, your list was countered, that doesn't make it OP, just means you were probably too focused on one thing if this tank ruined your whole army. This is the sort of thing that should be encouraged as it shifts the meta and makes it harder to predict what one thing will be good.

Thats why I think FW should be allowed as standard, that and you know, the rules saying it.

Its AV 13/12/12 doesn't have any effective way to deal with anything with a decent armour save or anything dedicated to hurting tanks.

Its main guns are great at taking down skimmers, yes that hits Eldar harder than most, but its expensive and not invincible.

Also it looks awesome.

[Denzark]

LV - I agree withthe majority - you are being a trifle precious. If you are saying this hornet thing is 80 pts for 4 S8AP2 shots, 2 of them at 160pts is going to outclass 1 x sicaran which with all upgrades will be around 200pts.

Eldar shouldn't be complaining and there are no such things as d-bag units - only d-bags who use them because of their profile to point value ratio...

On the flip side, if you had said the Typhon siege tank - 350pts for a 14/14/14 super heavy with a S10 AP1 7" IGNORES COVER shot and +1 of the Thunderblitz table - then yeah I would be more sympathetic.

[jeffersonian000]

I just read the OP, and was like, "can I get that translated into English?"

What is it with people and typing "street"? Just makes you look ignorant, kills any sincerity of your post, and invites reticule rather than open debate, as seen by the number of posts making fun of the OP's obvious crybaby Fest. So you don't like a FW 30k tank in a regular 40k game? Seriously?

SJ

[Demonus]

Guess the marine one has different options than the CSM one as Chaos cant get interceptor/skyfire. We do get a cool thing that makes the heavy bolters rending though. I proxied one of these in my CSM army and it did ok. More impressive on paper as even with the Ceramite a melta squad blew it up.

[Lost Vyper]

Funny, had the same topic on another forum and got a good debate going on there, with good points and arguments. I wonder what would have been, if i had not told i play Eldar?

[Denzark]

There is arguments on here, they just seem to disprove/disagree with the initial position. Being told most people think you are wrong doesn't mean this isn't a good debate though.

[Path Walker]

Can you let us know some of the points they made?

People here have all made arguments why you were incorrect to call the Sicaran Battle tank a "d-bag unit", there isn't a debate as such because, well, everyone else agrees. Perhaps we're missing something about what makes it so broken.

[Katharon]

What PathWalker said, I'd like to see a link to this other forum thread you seem to have going parallel to this one. Oh, and yeah, I think you're a bit too arse-hurt over this one; especially, as has been said before, you are playing Eldar. I has no tears of sympathy for you -- only derision.

That said, the Sicaran is a solid tank (and can be taken by both Chaos Space Marines and normal Space Marines) and one that is on my "purchase at earliest opportunity" list. It's not armored well enough to be called "OP" and while it is fairly easy to put extra rules onto it (which the player is still playing points for), it can still be knocked out easy. So, for once, you're just going to have to use better tactics than running around with insta-jink-saves on everything.

[Path Walker]

It is good at killing Wave Serpents, its a meta changer and should be encouraged.

Did I mention its a gorgeous model too?

[jeffersonian000]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634261.page#7564870

SJ

[Denzark]

I like how you moan about the answers here on dakka LV. It reads like a man biatching about his wife to his mistress...

[DWest]

Guess the marine one has different options than the CSM one as Chaos cant get interceptor/skyfire.
The Skyfire comes from a Legacy of Glory, the unique "titles" in the back of IA2. I believe IA 13 has Legacies as well, or are they unique Daemonic Possessions? Either way, it's a one-use-per-game, one-per-army buff. Although I would pay good money to get a Helical Targeting Array for the Sicaran (the thing some Dreads get that lets them choose to have Skyfire and Interceptor if they stay still).

[Path Walker]

Also, most people in that thread seem to be telling you exactly the same thing as we have

[Popsical]

This threads complaint couldnt make me more confused.
I sold a 6000pt seige assault mech marine army because all my av13 tanks and walkers died so easily to multi shot glancing weapons.
I had designed it during 5th when my tanks lasted longer.
My latest army CSM have some vehicles but now have lots of multi shot guns and more infantry because AV13 tanks die so easy.
Knocking off 3 HP on a AV 13 tank is absurdly easy in 7th ed, whats the beef with the sicaran?
It really does sound like you got your butt whupped and just didnt like it.

[Katharon]

I love how the conversation over there on DakkaDakka is pretty much mirroring ours; although it took them longer to notice you using Hornets than we did...I guess we spot cheese quicker on BoLS? lol

[Lost Vyper]

As for the eternal "Wave Serpent is so OP" moaning, we don´t have five options like the Marines (Stormraven, Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, and a Land Raider), we have two, and one i haven´t seen in a batrep since the 5th edition (Falcon). I would LOVE to use something else to carry the troops, but unless you ally with the Dark Kin, there´s no solution to this. And this is the last post from me on this. Remember, that it was a question, is it the MOST d-bag, and majority (non Eldar/Dark Eldar players of course :) ) thinks it´s not. Still, not many other choices offered here...

[dvs1]

Are you really not gonna play your friend unless he uses the units you want/don't want him to? Lol sorry, I play Eldar as well and I'm sure every Eldar player can attest to you doing something wrong if 1 tank is giving you that much trouble. What do you think your friend would veto if given the chance, your serpents or the Hornets :rolleyes:

[Lost Vyper]

No, i would play him still, but he would have to buy the proper model :). We had games, where i specified, that the list does not contain any WS´s and those have been GREAT! He isn´t a douche, who immediately spams flamers and such, knowing there´s no WS´s. Those games bring out much of the models from the shelf, that don´t get to play in regular games...and he would veto the WS´s. He has Sternguard to deal with the Hornets...or the WS´s too...

[Popsical]

Sorry but im really struggling to see how you cant cope with one AV13 tank?
Ive lost 3 ironclads and 2 vindicators in 1 turn before, AV 13 is ok but pretty easy to deal with even enmass.
Surely your list must have been very light on shooting, in which case you need to adjust your list accordingly.
3 glances and its toast, busted? Really? Meh.

[Renegade]

Eldar player crying about Autocannons..? Nothing new here.

You know that technically IG can use the ignore Jink rules by building a Hydra Platform, ten points less than the current Hydra tank and all it requires is a little scratch building... IG can field 9 of them and fill the heavy support of one detachment.

[Defenestratus]

I'm really over the whining about the Wave Serpent. The line "You can't complain about another unit because you play Eldar" is the most moronic logic I think that I've been exposed to.

Furthermore the projection about how he's using hornets with pulse lasers was especially confusing... "80 pts for 4 S8 AP2 shots per turn". I don't recall the OP saying how he outfitted his hornets. For all we know he was putting shuricannons on them (its whats on mine).


Eldar shouldn't be complaining and there are no such things as d-bag units - only d-bags who use them because of their profile to point value ratio...

How about d-bags who think that others' opinion isn't worth listening to just because he plays a certain army? Just because he plays Eldar doesn't mean that he spams 5 wave serpents a game. It doesn't mean that he ever ran a mounted council with the Baron in it. It doesn't mean that he's a powergaming d*ck whose out to ruin your good time.

I'm sick of the wave serpent hate. Its a transport/tank that is good. Its ONLY problem is that its spammable. I've had my wave serpents blown up so many times by IG heavy weapons squads, Hydras, Noise Marines, Tau markerlit missile shenanigans, thunderhammers to the hull... Its just silly that there's so much complaining over one silly tank. For the life of me I don't see why more people aren't piping up about the new Necron codex.. the crap you can apparently pull with Zandrekh and allies of convenience is going to be a real "fun" one.

The existence of that one silly tank doesn't relegate us Eldar players opinions below any other army's players. If you have a problem with his actual complaint then fine - but your problem shouldn't be "he plays Eldar".

[Dave Mcturk]

I'm really over the whining about the Wave Serpent. The line "You can't complain about another unit because you play Eldar" is the most moronic logic I think that I've been exposed to.

Furthermore the projection about how he's using hornets with pulse lasers was especially confusing... "80 pts for 4 S8 AP2 shots per turn". I don't recall the OP saying how he outfitted his hornets. For all we know he was putting shuricannons on them (its whats on mine).



How about d-bags who think that others' opinion isn't worth listening to just because he plays a certain army? Just because he plays Eldar doesn't mean that he spams 5 wave serpents a game. It doesn't mean that he ever ran a mounted council with the Baron in it. It doesn't mean that he's a powergaming d*ck whose out to ruin your good time.

I'm sick of the wave serpent hate. Its a transport/tank that is good. Its ONLY problem is that its spammable. I've had my wave serpents blown up so many times by IG heavy weapons squads, Hydras, Noise Marines, Tau markerlit missile shenanigans, thunderhammers to the hull... Its just silly that there's so much complaining over one silly tank. For the life of me I don't see why more people aren't piping up about the new Necron codex.. the crap you can apparently pull with Zandrekh and allies of convenience is going to be a real "fun" one.

The existence of that one silly tank doesn't relegate us Eldar players opinions below any other army's players. If you have a problem with his actual complaint then fine - but your problem shouldn't be "he plays Eldar".

glad someones standing up for vyper ! never played against super-heavies or similar - but i play eldar mostly and have happily house ruled the wavz to a one use only of the dreaded serpent shield - its still a good vehicle but it seems to balance out reasonably fairly.

personally i would have thought that any a13 tank - even with super-duper ignore melta armour [like serpents used to have] - is still toast if caught by a mob of haywire grenades or some wraith-guns ?

[marful]

gpersonally i would have thought that any a13 tank - even with super-duper ignore melta armour [like serpents used to have] - is still toast if caught by a mob of haywire grenades or some wraith-guns ?
The part in bold is why I feel the complaint about the sicaran whining. Particularly if that player is also taking hornets...


The long of the short is that the Sicaran is a moderately armored vehicle with 3hp capable of being brought down by a SINGLE wave serpent's shooting.

Against the front armor (AV 13), a single Wave Serpent is going to average 1 hull point, against the front!.

Against the side (AV 12), a single Wave Serpent is going to average 3 hull points.


Add in the fact that you can only take a single relic of the armory and that a Sicaran costs more than a Wave Serpent (which doesn't take up a force org slot, has objective secured and is a troop transport)?

[DarkLink]

As for the eternal "Wave Serpent is so OP" moaning, we don´t have five options like the Marines (Stormraven, Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, and a Land Raider), we have two, and one i haven´t seen in a batrep since the 5th edition (Falcon). I would LOVE to use something else to carry the troops, but unless you ally with the Dark Kin, there´s no solution to this. And this is the last post from me on this. Remember, that it was a question, is it the MOST d-bag, and majority (non Eldar/Dark Eldar players of course :) ) thinks it´s not. Still, not many other choices offered here...

Oh, boo-hoo, you only have two transports and one of them is one of the single best models in the game*. I'm figuratively weeping for your misfortune.


*Especially since the only thing on your list of SM transports that's better than just mediocre is the Drop Pod.

[DWest]

Add in the fact that you can only take a single relic of the armory
You can take multiple Relics of the Armoury, if you take an HQ unit that has been designated "Master of the Reliquary" in IA 2- for Codex Marines, this is the Master of the Forge. That would permit 3 Sicarans, but you can still only give 1 per 1000 points the Legacies of Glory, and you can't take 2 of the same Legacy no matter what.

[marful]

You can take multiple Relics of the Armoury, if you take an HQ unit that has been designated "Master of the Reliquary" in IA 2- for Codex Marines, this is the Master of the Forge. That would permit 3 Sicarans, but you can still only give 1 per 1000 points the Legacies of Glory, and you can't take 2 of the same Legacy no matter what.
How many points is a Master of the Forge?

[energongoodie]

90

[Andrew Thomas]

The Skyfire comes from a Legacy of Glory, the unique "titles" in the back of IA2. I believe IA 13 has Legacies as well, or are they unique Daemonic Possessions? Either way, it's a one-use-per-game, one-per-army buff. Although I would pay good money to get a Helical Targeting Array for the Sicaran (the thing some Dreads get that lets them choose to have Skyfire and Interceptor if they stay still).

Side question: do you have to apply both rules to the same shooting attack with HTA? Cause if you do, I nominate Deathmarks and Riptides, with Broadsides a close 3rd.

[DWest]

Helical Targeting Array applies Skyfire and Interceptor to everything the model has on it, for the remainder of the game turn. You gain the Helical effect by having the model stand still (currently only Walkers have it, so you can move to get rid of it without sacrificing anything). Unfortunately, with the way it's worded ("remainder of the game turn"), if you're going 2nd, you'll never have a chance to intercept.

[Renegade]

I'm really over the whining about the Wave Serpent. The line "You can't complain about another unit because you play Eldar" is the most moronic logic I think that I've been exposed to.

Complaining about a FW unit where you take FW units is moronic.


Furthermore the projection about how he's using hornets with pulse lasers was especially confusing... "80 pts for 4 S8 AP2 shots per turn". I don't recall the OP saying how he outfitted his hornets. For all we know he was putting shuricannons on them (its whats on mine).

Great, so they go from stupidly cheap AT skimmers to stupidly cheap AI skimmers.


How about d-bags who think that others' opinion isn't worth listening to just because he plays a certain army? Just because he plays Eldar doesn't mean that he spams 5 wave serpents a game. It doesn't mean that he ever ran a mounted council with the Baron in it. It doesn't mean that he's a powergaming d*ck whose out to ruin your good time.

Perhaps because Eldar have nothing to complain about, and the complaint in question is in regards to what is a good tank. The Eldar player should be glad that it isn't some kind of super skimmer that is all but impossible to destroy, or whatever flavour of OP that GW constantly give Eldar.

Eldar have all kinds of d-bag tricks in the codex, and they get new ones with each codex, they are the last players that should be crying.


I'm sick of the wave serpent hate. Its a transport/tank that is good. Its ONLY problem is that its spammable. I've had my wave serpents blown up so many times by IG heavy weapons squads, Hydras, Noise Marines, Tau markerlit missile shenanigans, thunderhammers to the hull... Its just silly that there's so much complaining over one silly tank. For the life of me I don't see why more people aren't piping up about the new Necron codex.. the crap you can apparently pull with Zandrekh and allies of convenience is going to be a real "fun" one.

Necrons don't have the ridiculousness of Eldar, and at least the necron player base seems to acknowledge they have little to nothing to complain about, particularly when it comes to tanks.


The existence of that one silly tank doesn't relegate us Eldar players opinions below any other army's players. If you have a problem with his actual complaint then fine - but your problem shouldn't be "he plays Eldar".

Problem is "he plays Eldar" and is complaining about a non-LoW unit that just happens to be good, nothing overly special, just good for its points.

[Defenestratus]

Complaining about a FW unit where you take FW units is moronic.

For me, Codex and FW units are one in the same. I don't make a distinction. Personally I feel that there is far more broken units in codexes than in FW books. He's not a moron for complaining about a FW unit if he's taking a FW unit.



Great, so they go from stupidly cheap AT skimmers to stupidly cheap AI skimmers.


Vyper with two shuriken cannons is 20pts cheaper. Hows that for stupidly cheap?



Perhaps because Eldar have nothing to complain about, and the complaint in question is in regards to what is a good tank. The Eldar player should be glad that it isn't some kind of super skimmer that is all but impossible to destroy, or whatever flavour of OP that GW constantly give Eldar.

Really? I have a huge list of complaints. I'll list them here.

1) Banshees suck (but I'm honestly as sick of hearing about that as I am about wave serpents being awesome)
2) Falcons are totally overshadowed by wave serpents. Make Falcons a dedicated transport.
3) Striking scorpions are only decent against non-CC specialist units. Against anything thats built for assault, they're garbage.
4) Swooping hawks should be able to interact with fliers
5) For some reason, all of our heavy weapon upgrades are really cheap, but our missile launchers will cost you your left eyeball. Throw on our ONLY skyfire upgrade in the whole book and you could either take a missile launcher, or a revenant titan. Pick one.
6) For being the air superiority race, our fliers are remarkable vulnerable.
7) Wraithknights are too good. They overshadow almost all of the other heavy support choices, especially the wraithlords.
8) For some reason, warlocks discriminate on which units they can attach to while spiritseers don't.

I've got a lot more... I could go on forever about it.



Eldar have all kinds of d-bag tricks in the codex, and they get new ones with each codex, they are the last players that should be crying.


The fact that Eldar have d-bag tricks doesn't mean that LV isn't entitled to form his own opinion about other units.




Necrons don't have the ridiculousness of Eldar, and at least the necron player base seems to acknowledge they have little to nothing to complain about, particularly when it comes to tanks.

Necrons absolutely do have the ridiculousness of Eldar and more - and I'm betting that within the next few months we'll see that fleshed out in the ridiculously named "competitive meta".

In fact, I'm not so much dreading the revamp of the Eldar codex when it comes up if it follows the path of the Necrons book.



Problem is "he plays Eldar" and is complaining about a non-LoW unit that just happens to be good, nothing overly special, just good for its points.

Fine. Confront his complaints on the basis that he's complaining about a unit that isn't worth complaining about - not because "he plays Eldar".

[40kGamer]

Perhaps because Eldar have nothing to complain about, and the complaint in question is in regards to what is a good tank. The Eldar player should be glad that it isn't some kind of super skimmer that is all but impossible to destroy, or whatever flavour of OP that GW constantly give Eldar.

Eldar have all kinds of d-bag tricks in the codex, and they get new ones with each codex, they are the last players that should be crying.

Seriously? Eldar aren't that special... 40k in general is such a fabulous disaster that no one has firm grounds for complaining. The Imperial player can freely pick from half the freaking books in the game. LV has proposed that in a game system with no internal or external balance that the Sicaran may be the king. Of course it's not that easy to crown as it has to enter the broken beauty contest with all of the other contestants big and small.


Problem is "he plays Eldar" and is complaining about a non-LoW unit that just happens to be good, nothing overly special, just good for its points.

Pfft. I play every 40k army and have a list of design and concept complaints for every single one of them. For Eldar, Defenestratus did a nice job of listing the top complaints I have too... Although I would add that Harlequins have been useless for ages too.

[Renegade]

For me, Codex and FW units are one in the same. I don't make a distinction. Personally I feel that there is far more broken units in codexes than in FW books. He's not a moron for complaining about a FW unit if he's taking a FW unit.

You do know that when FW comes into it that there may be a few more tricks, that the unit will probably be better thought out and the rules reflect its role, far more so than most codices.


Vyper with two shuriken cannons is 20pts cheaper. Hows that for stupidly cheap?

No doubt there is a reason why the Hornet is taken over the Vyper, even if the Vyper is cheaper.


Really? I have a huge list of complaints. I'll list them here.

Stuff

I've got a lot more... I could go on forever about it.

Take a place in the queue behind the CSM players, and perhaps I can tell you about the IG elite slot that may as well not exist as nothing in it is particularly worth while for its points or its purpose.


The fact that Eldar have d-bag tricks doesn't mean that LV isn't entitled to form his own opinion about other units.

Sure, but it does lack a massive amount of sportsmanship and take a brass neck to do so when the units is a simple enough target and only really shines against particular foes.

I may as well declare that the Bolter is broken OP D-baggery, it amounts to the same thing.


Necrons absolutely do have the ridiculousness of Eldar and more - and I'm betting that within the next few months we'll see that fleshed out in the ridiculously named "competitive meta".

In fact, I'm not so much dreading the revamp of the Eldar codex when it comes up if it follows the path of the Necrons book.

Necrons don't have crazy initiative, IG can match them in close combat, they are seeming overall quite balanced. There limits on list building to do the crazy stuff as it requires a particular structure in the units taken.

Looking at the changes to Necrons, I look forward to seeing Eldar getting tamed this time, as long as Eldar get tamed.

Necrons don't have crazy initiative, IG can match them in close combat, they are seeming overall quite balanced. There limits on list building to do the crazy stuff as it requires a particular structure in the units taken.


Fine. Confront his complaints on the basis that he's complaining about a unit that isn't worth complaining about - not because "he plays Eldar".

He is only complaining about it because that particular unit is good against Eldar, so the "he plays Eldar" comes directly into it, and it solely a case of an Eldar player crying over what is nothing.

[Defenestratus]

No doubt there is a reason why the Hornet is taken over the Vyper, even if the Vyper is cheaper.

AV11, Scout and Star engines built in. Nothing game breaking.


Necrons don't have crazy initiative, IG can match them in close combat, they are seeming overall quite balanced. There limits on list building to do the crazy stuff as it requires a particular structure in the units taken.

Necrons don't need crazy initiative. With a cryptek in tow, Lychguard with storm shields and 4++ RP are more resilient to damage than most units... the fact that RP is rolled when the damage is taken now instead of at the end of the phase is a huge, HUGE boost to necron's close combat chops. Wraiths with T5 and W2 with a 3++ save are going to be really tough for a close combat specialist unit to topple, especially when they're going to go @ I5. I speculate that if you think that IG can match them in close combat, you'll be left with the wrong impression. In my sample vassal game, my unit of charging striking scorpions lost combat to 15 necron warriors and got ran down because of the stupid cryptek who tanked my exarch's claw hits in a challenge then nuked my exarch at his initiative. I don't need to mention the mess than the wraiths made of my wraithguard. It wasn't pretty.

[Popsical]

What you both are argueing about is valid from either side.
The simple fact is that one AV 13 tank is not OP if it can easily be killed in a turn by any army in the game.
Sure the guns hurt eldar and their kin, so what, lots of stuff hurt lots of different armies, we all suffer them.
If you can prove that this AV13 3HP tank is immune to incoming fire and thus cant be killed like, hmm, every other AV13 3HP tank, then it might be a bit OP.
Av12 on side and rear against the most mobile army with the most st 6 gun shots in the game?
Yeah its litterally star cannon fodder. Get a grip.

[Andrew Thomas]

What you both are argueing about is valid from either side.
The simple fact is that one AV 13 tank is not OP if it can easily be killed in a turn by any army in the game.
Sure the guns hurt eldar and their kin, so what, lots of stuff hurt lots of different armies, we all suffer them.
If you can prove that this AV13 3HP tank is immune to incoming fire and thus cant be killed like, hmm, every other AV13 3HP tank, then it might be a bit OP.
Av12 on side and rear against the most mobile army with the most st 6 gun shots in the game?
Yeah its litterally star cannon fodder. Get a grip.

Not to mention that built against right, said OP Transport is glanced to death in 1-2 turns.

[nuclearfeet]

I'm just over here in the corner crying and rocking back and forth with the rest of the Chaos Space Marine players.

At least we can take the Sicarian, it almost balances out the rest of our sub-par options.

[Charon]

I guess one of the big problems with FW is their product line.
It is already hard to bear GWs balatant favoritism of the "imperial faction" which is basically battlebrothers with over 50% of all available armies allowing them insane combos while getting new toys every edition.
Add in FW to this mess with their Tank line wich features mostly IG and SM and it becomes really a punch into the face of Xenos players.
But well at least I got 2 Raiders duct taped into one and a crappy tank hunter that cant shoot its weapon when forced to jink and does its job worse than cheaper codex entries... that totally compensates for the long list of imperial vehicles and units.

[Mr Mystery]

Have you ever actually been punched in the face?

I have. And a different army getting toys instead of your favourite is really quite a different thing. For a start, it's not at all painful. In fact, come to think of it, it's not even a physical assault.

It's like, business and stuff. Imperial stuff sells really well - so they ramp up the variety to keep the money coming in. Because that's what a business does.

[Charon]

Have you ever actually been punched in the face?

I have. And a different army getting toys instead of your favourite is really quite a different thing. For a start, it's not at all painful. In fact, come to think of it, it's not even a physical assault.

It's like, business and stuff. Imperial stuff sells really well - so they ramp up the variety to keep the money coming in. Because that's what a business does.

Aside from your tiresome attitude:

Being a business and making money does not mean everyone has to accept your way of handling things. Can't see praises for Monsanto either just because they do what a business does.
But I guess people never get tired of these interesting Imperial vs Imperial games :rolleyes:

[Mr Mystery]

Well, as the Imperial stuff still sells, I guess not. Because, you know - money don't lie and that.

And not being an Imperial player yourself, I guess you've never experienced some red hot Imperium on Imperium action.

[Charon]

Well, as the Imperial stuff still sells, I guess not. Because, you know - money don't lie and that.

And not being an Imperial player yourself, I guess you've never experienced some red hot Imperium on Imperium action.

Well as LotR basically died out we can see what happens when a system just inherits "good" vs "good" battles.

Interesting that you arrogate what I do play and what not.
Going from your feminism posts it should not be too hard even for you to grasp why it is a bad thing when one side has numberous priviliges over the other because of an established system :D
But I can clearly see that most sensible way of action is to ignore your comments entirely.

[Mr Mystery]

By all means, feel free to block me.

But seeing as you were complaining about the lack of DE acton from FW, reasonable assumption was made, based on the evidence available to me at that time :)

[Popsical]

Oh dear lord. So we now move from dousche bag tank, to imperial dousche bags, because FW dont make xenos units often enough.
It must be so great being a sisters player then eh?
For crying out loud, units get made that sell, some units that would out sell any xenos unit possible (new chaos marines) dont get done.
Get a grip.

[Charon]

Oh dear lord. So we now move from dousche bag tank, to imperial dousche bags, because FW dont make xenos units often enough.

Where do your read that? Iwas merely pointing out that the FW acceptance might be low due their rather one sided products.
Interestingly I see a lot of IG and SM players trying to push FW stuff in games while Xenos players are rather unhappy about seeing this stuff in their games.
Most games here are "no FW" games for exact this reason.

[Path Walker]

Only people I've ever seen care about if you can use FW or not are those people that think its important who wins a game of toy soldiers. Who the **** cares?

[Popsical]

+1 to that Path walker.
So Charon, you'd refuse to fight a FW Elysian army which has mighty taurus' and sentinels coz they are beardy OP cheese?
Or a FW DKoK infantry army coz those +1 WS guardsmen are way OP?
Its ok to field a pure cheese codex army if you like coz none of those are even as remotely busted?
Its toy bloody soldiers dude!

[CoffeeGrunt]

FW makes what sells, and sadly DE doesn't really sell in the volumes a decent Imperial tank or Tau Riptide variant does. The other problem IMO is that DE don't suit a big toys playstyle. They're a carefully-applied scalpel to the Imperium's bigger = better, especially en masse. It'd be like them making some sort of Titan-sized Tau Battlesuit, it simple wouldn't make much sense.

[Charon]

So Charon, you'd refuse to fight a FW Elysian army which has mighty taurus' and sentinels coz they are beardy OP cheese?

I guess its my clubs, hobby stores, friends and my decision on HOW we want to play and not yours?
And yes, we outright refuse FW, same with superheavies.


The other problem IMO is that DE don't suit a big toys playstyle.

Since when does FW only produce super heavies?
Castigators, Pain Engines or even a bloody conversion kit for the Eldar Titan are possibilities.
It is also hard to argue whith sales when there are no products to buy.

[Popsical]

Of course its your choice. Its just very sad that you point blank refuse to fight players who may have paid lots of money and spent lots of time painting a gorgeous army which isnt OP or broken etc etc because its FW.
The reasons anti FW haters use to justify not allowing it are so absurdly hypocritical as a rule, its laughable.
Every fault of FW is valid in abundance in codex armies, and thus are silly to say the least.
Cant learn the rules as dont own the book = all GW is expensive so most dont own all dexs.
Rules un- play tested = and codexs are sooo balanced
Units are OP = thank god none of the dex units arent OP eh?

Yep heard them all, yep theyre all hypocritical.

[Charon]

Having options is fine when EVERYBODY is having options, not just some people who happen to play the "right" faction.

Also to be fair, people do not tend to use the one or the other Predator Variant or Tauros but go straight for the cost effective and powerful stuff.

[Popsical]

Which applies to xenos players as much as imperial.
Or do most eldar players take falcons instead of wave serpents?
I dont remember every codex having the same number of units?
By your rationale the dexs with the most units have an unfair advantage.
Hmm. Does that ring true, im curious now.
Can someone with every codex please let us know if the codexs with the most choices are the most powerful.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Banning Forge World means banning Repressors and Avengers, which makes Sisters very sad, (especially the Repressors, which are pretty decent to be fair.) Personally, I have a few FW models, and I always give my opponent a heads-up on what I'm bringing so they can bear it in mind, (they do the same for me.) I have a Ryza Vanquisher with co-axial Stubber, I have Autocannon Chimerae, the Medusa which used to be a Codex option but is now FW-only, and a Macharius Vulcan.

My Tau have a handful of Tetras and a few XV9 counts-as, which I love to bits, even if they are horribly costed. I even have a Tauros for my Chem Dogs Kill Team, because a scavenged Technical seems perfect for those kinda guys.

[Venomlust]

Not a whole lot I can contribute at this point, but no, the Sicaran is not OP whatsoever. It's a pretty good unit, but it's not going to single-handedly win every game against every army. Those that rely on skimmers will have some stuff shot down, but what army has no answer to AV13?

[SnakeChisler]

Of course its your choice. Its just very sad that you point blank refuse to fight players who may have paid lots of money and spent lots of time painting a gorgeous army which isnt OP or broken etc etc because its FW.
The reasons anti FW haters use to justify not allowing it are so absurdly hypocritical as a rule, its laughable.
Every fault of FW is valid in abundance in codex armies, and thus are silly to say the least.
Cant learn the rules as dont own the book = all GW is expensive so most dont own all dexs.
Rules un- play tested = and codexs are sooo balanced
Units are OP = thank god none of the dex units arent OP eh?

Yep heard them all, yep theyre all hypocritical.

Pre 7th we played Forge World & Super Heavies & large fortifications in Escalation (2000/2500 points) post 7th we do exactly the same.

Its everyone's prerogative to agree or not to Forgeworld & the other extra's and set the parameters for the type of game they wish to play.

I'd also like to make the point that not everyone can afford to splash large sums on such powerful units and the best matchups are against like minded armies.

I was under the impression that the Sicaran was a 30k model anyway?

[ShadowcatX]

Which applies to xenos players as much as imperial.
Or do most eldar players take falcons instead of wave serpents?
I dont remember every codex having the same number of units?
By your rationale the dexs with the most units have an unfair advantage.
Hmm. Does that ring true, im curious now.
Can someone with every codex please let us know if the codexs with the most choices are the most powerful.

Xenos don't have a whole second game that they can cherry pick models from. You cannot possibly believe that is a fair situation.

[40kGamer]

Xenos don't have a whole second game that they can cherry pick models from. You cannot possibly believe that is a fair situation.

It is only unfair in the sense that GW is unwilling to make PVs that are representative of a models on table abilities, otherwise it would be a nonissue as to who had the most toys to choose from. Plus over half the stuff FW has to offer is so overcosted in points that it is basically neglected. Atm the worst game breaking models are living comfortably within the pages of the main codecies.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Xenos don't have a whole second game that they can cherry pick models from. You cannot possibly believe that is a fair situation.

This is exactly why we see 30K armies stomping Eldar and Tau at tournaments...right?

[ShadowcatX]

This is exactly why we see 30K armies stomping Eldar and Tau at tournaments...right?

You are trying to imply something here, but you need to prove some things first. Can you can show at least three post 7th edition tournaments that allowed 30K armies, had said armies in comparable numbers to the eldar / tau, that were won by Eldar or Tau? If there's 30 eldar / tau armies, and 3 30K armies, then it is no surprise that an eldar or tau won after all. Without that basic ground work, your implication is pointless.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You are trying to imply something here, but you need to prove some things first. Can you can show at least three post 7th edition tournaments that allowed 30K armies, had said armies in comparable numbers to the eldar / tau, that were won by Eldar or Tau? If there's 30 eldar / tau armies, and 3 30K armies, then it is no surprise that an eldar or tau won after all. Without that basic ground work, your implication is pointless.

Let me just go collect that data which isn't freely available because no-one bothers to collect and disseminate it. Well done, handing me an impossible task as a qualifier to prove my point...

[Charon]

Let me just go collect that data which isn't freely available because no-one bothers to collect and disseminate it. Well done, handing me an impossible task as a qualifier to prove my point...

To be fair you started it by making a wild claim which indicates you must have some data of 30k armies and tau/eldar competing at mixed tourneys.
So I dont really see the need to make a "point" which you can't back up.
ShadowcatX has a valid point in mentioning that most 40k tourneys do not allow 30k armies so it would be really interesting where your input is coming from.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Reports of people playing 30K armies against 40K armies and not wiping the table with Eldar corpses, for one. A look at the ruleset and some play time, for two.

A bit like asking me to prove the existence of Dark Matter, this, by telling me I have to create a dataset to prove the theory. Surely you see the backwards logic there?

[Charon]

Reports of people playing 30K armies against 40K armies and not wiping the table with Eldar corpses, for one. A look at the ruleset and some play time, for two.




at tournaments

See the difference?
If you did not add the tournaments, the statement would be anectotical evidence but not realy relevant. But as you stated "at tournaments" I really would like to see which competitive tournaments allow to mix up 30k and 40k.

And as you know the rules, Admech is a real pain in the *** against a standard 40k army.

Its a little bit like saying "If Manchester U is such a good team why haven't I see them winning any major hockey game yet?"

[ShadowcatX]

Let me just go collect that data which isn't freely available because no-one bothers to collect and disseminate it. Well done, handing me an impossible task as a qualifier to prove my point...

If the data isn't available, how do you have the data that Eldar are stomping 30k armies in tournaments like you implied previously? You are the one who brought up tournament results after all.

ETA: Didn't notice that there was another page and this had already been addressed. My apologies.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Its a little bit like saying "If Manchester U is such a good team why haven't I see them winning any major hockey game yet?"

Actually no, it's more like "why haven't I seen them win the FIFA World Cup yet," because the team is decided to not be applicable, rather than anything to do with their power level. Which was what we were discussing.

We were discussing power level, not the arbitrary things tournament organisers have banned in a fruitless attempt at balance.

[Charon]

We were discussing power level, not the arbitrary things tournament organisers have banned in a fruitless attempt at balance.

Why do you bring in the topic of tournaments when you do not want to discuss it?
Again, it was YOU who claimed that 30k is not stronger than40k because 30k does not win tournaments:


This is exactly why we see 30K armies stomping Eldar and Tau at tournaments...right?

[Kevlarshark]

You know, I have played quite a few games now against 30k lists with my 40k Guard and my Chaos Nightlords. The 30k lists have some new tricks to play, but nothing too devastating. My chimera based guard took a few knocks from the relic predator and sicarians. I was more worried about rapiers and 10 man terminator squads.

[ShadowcatX]

Just to point out that currently the results from the LVO show one Eldar army in the top 10, along with one Tau army. There are 4 space marine armies, not counting angry marines. And here I thought Eldar and Tau were just dominating the tournament scene and that marines needed help to be competitive.