Crons vs Armored company... advice.

[Valdier]

So, I'm recently returned to 40k, having not played since 5th edition really... I've read through the Codex (the one before today which changes almost nothing).

I'm playing in a 1000 point campaign that has one player running as an Armored company.

This means, 2 AV 14 Leman's (basically), with the ability to ignore cover on one of them. 2 Chimera's with Veterans in them I believe, an assortment of weapons. 2 sentinels with multi-lasers.

I joined the campaign a little late and so have had the fortune of playing him once, and losing by a few victory points. In the process, I was nearly tabled. Nobody in this campaign has ever beaten his list.

I'm looking for some advice on how to better fair against such heavy tank spam. I know, Necrons should be able to glance, blah blah, but you have to get within 24" to do that. With Outflanking and deep striking, it can be quite hard to get my crons near any substantial amount of tanks.

Assuming Old or new codex (because seriously, not much has changed...), I could use some advice :)

Thank you :)

[Lord Krungharr]

Generally, the Leman Russes can only ignore cover with the Str6/AP4 blasty one, and don't Necrons have 3+ armor? But with Gauss, this shouldn't be super hard. Start some hard to kill units, like Wraiths or something on the table so you don't get wiped out Turn1, and take 2 or 3 units of Warriors or Immortals in Night Scythes. Bring them in from Reserves Turn 2 and drop in the gaussy warriors to eat up the Leman Russes. Meanwhile, a Doom Scythe or 2 can also come in and template the troops and other bitsy guardsmen (they have Str 10/AP1 templates now I think, no longer beams).

Not sure if they still have it, but the Crons previously had something that let flyers come in on Turn 1 somehow? If not that, maybe purchase an Aegis Line with Comms Relay to help get the flyers in, which do seem to be a major strength of Necrons.....and Wraiths are flipping FAST now, being beasts, 2 wounds at T5, ignoring all obstacles in their way and have a 3++. They should be in combat by turn 2 for sure.

[Tyrendian]

all perfectly sound advice Krung - just a bit harder to do at just a thousand points... :)
from those suggestions, I'd probably scratch the Doom Croissants and try to build a list out of Wraiths and transported/flown in Warriors/Immortals... no idea what exatly that will get you with the new dex (don't have it yet), but I'd imagine something like a good-sized squad of Wraiths (muuuuch better vs. standard Russes now with T5! Demolishers still make them kinda sad though, but that tends to be true for most things...) and two or three units of infantry should be possible?

[Valdier]

Necron warriors generally have AV: 4+ so they get eaten alive by it.

I suppose I could switch to Immortals to get the 3+ but that is obviously more expensive point wise.

Wraiths seem to be my best odds... if I run Scarabs, a spider and wraiths, they all get Fleet turn 1 and have reanimation protocols or shred after that.

Rending I don't think can hurt the leman russ if they get into combat... Str 6, Rending... 6 Wraiths == 24 attacks on the charge, rending means 18 hits, and an average Penetration roll of 11 (Rear armor right?)... so, that is potentially a lot of glances... If half of those glance, that is 9 hull points lost in one turn... that should work?

I was using Stormtechs with Assault 4 haywire, but they are gone now.

Tyrendian,

Yeah at 1000 points flyers are hard to field. The new codex raised their price and weakened them noticeably. Wraiths are better... higher strength and toughness, along with 2 wounds. Additionally if you take scarabs and a spider, they get Reanimation protocols now.

That might be the best way to go and then include a pair of A. Barges and immortals... I might try this and see

[Katharon]

Leman Russ Eradicators, the tank that can ignore cover with their weapon, is Rear Armour 10. Wraiths should have no problem with it.

Something that a lot of people tend to do when playing Imperial Guard is to freak out about their tanks. This causes them to focus a rather undue amount of attention to them and ultimately waste several turns of shooting and/or assault on them. As such most IG players will then use their mobile troop assets to claim objects and win points. So what's the moral of the story? Forget the tanks for the first few rounds and take out his troops in Chimeras first.

Does this guy usually turtle up in a corner with his tanks and chimeras? Or does he have the Chimeras running around with the Lemans in support from a corner? Need more tactical information.

[Valdier]

He usually starts with lemans in a corner then outflanks the chimera onto the table. The sentinels deep strike in. The chimera are used to come behind the lines as a sandwich maneuver.

[Katharon]

He usually starts with lemans in a corner then outflanks the chimera onto the table. The sentinels deep strike in. The chimera are used to come behind the lines as a sandwich maneuver.

1) Who is his warlord?

2) Chimeras outflanking? How? They don't come stock with that rule so I'm not understanding how you seem to be describing him *always* doing this move.

3) Is he using Forge World sentinels? The only sentinel that can deep strike is the Drop Sentinel and it's uniquely armed and armored.

Give me just a bit more information and I can give you a definitive tactical plan. Also, if you can provide a copy of his army list, that would be even better.

[Valdier]

1) Who is his warlord?

His Warlord is the Tank Commander Leman Russ Eradicator in a squad with the other Leman Russ. They are the only two units that start on the field in the far corner.


2) Chimeras outflanking? How? They don't come stock with that rule so I'm not understanding how you seem to be describing him *always* doing this move.

I'm honestly not sure, his claim was that with this army they got infiltrate which gave outflank... is it possible he got it as a warlord trait? Or can pick his warlord trait? (Or perhaps he just claims this is how he always deploys and doesn't actually?)


3) Is he using Forge World sentinels? The only sentinel that can deep strike is the Drop Sentinel and it's uniquely armed and armored.

They appear to be normal sentinels with multi-lasers. Not only did they deep strike but they did so into terrain without problems.


Give me just a bit more information and I can give you a definitive tactical plan. Also, if you can provide a copy of his army list, that would be even better.

I wish I had a copy of it, but I can only say what was there from memory.

Two Lemans, one was the eradicator and his commander. The other was armed with laz and heavy bolters I believe. The two chimera were generic with veterans in them. Veterans had multi-melta's, flame throwers and missile launchers. The two sentinels were multi-lasers and a single hunter killer missile.

That is honestly the most accurate details I can remember (its been 8 days and I've played 3 games and got a new codex since then ;) )

[Katharon]

Let me give you an IG run down then of information to take with you the next time you play him. And I mean watch him closely and question everything.

1) If he takes a Leman Russ Tank Commander, he is obligated by rules to take a 2nd tank with that commander tank. Also, he is limited to rolling a D3 -- not a D6 -- on the warlord traits table. This means that he can get one of the following: (1)"Grand Strategist," (2)"Old Grudges," or (3)"Draconian Discipline." Grand Strategist is the most important in this case, as it allows him to do the following (and I quote): "Nominate D3 units in your primary detachment. These units gain the Outflank special rule." This means that he has to roll a 1 on a D3 roll to get Grand Strategist and roll at least a 2 to give his Chimeras the possibility of outflanking. If you say he's getting it every time, I'm calling bull****. So next time you or anyone else plays him, make sure he does his rolling for warlord traits out in the open. And remember that if he does get #1 Grand Strategist, that he has to again roll a D3 to see how many units he can actually give Outflank to.

2) No IG army from the codex comes stock with units having Infiltrate. Also, the only rule that allows you to Outflank is if you have Scout and are kept in reserve -- then that unit can Outflank -- but only if they have the Scout special rule. Again, make sure to watch him roll his warlord traits.

3) He's lying his arse off then because sentinels do not deep strike. Period. The only sentinel that can deepstrike is a Forgeworld Imperial Armour "Drop Sentinel" and it can never be armed with a multi-laser because that's not in its wargear options. Also, everything except maybe flyers have to take a dangerous terrain check to see if they take damage when deep striking into terrain. Scout Sentinels, which I think he is using, have the Move Through Cover special rule, but that doesn't give them anything beyond normal movement advantages. Certainly not the ability to deepstrike.

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So, after you clean his act up and he stops bull****ting the rules a bit, I think you can move on to actually beating his army tactically. Also, never be afraid to ask to see his codex to read rules or check out weapon strengths and AP values. It helps you and him to remember...(cue rolling eyes on that second part).

Against his armour, put out some scarabs. Huge swarms of scarabs that can move across the board fast and hard. I would suggest a double-threat operation: a ghost arc or whatever doomsday ray-gun thing sitting in your deployment zone sending death rays and as close as you can deploy your scarabs against his tanks. Even if he deploys with his tanks touching the very back of the board edge, you'll still be able to get to him by turn two. Scarabs are fast and they have move through terrain as well, so they won't be obstructed. Not to mention that as long as you are not being blocked by a solid building (four walls and maybe a roof) then you can move directly through it -- it's a ruin or shrub that you just burst the hell through like one of the mummies from The Mummy Returns. The Eradicator Nova Cannon that you mention him having is only 36" range, so it won't be too much of a threat against your heavier stuff. If his other Leman Russ is armed with a battle cannon, then that makes it perfect for you since if he fires his main gun then he has to fire his other weapons as BS1 -- not normal Ballistic Skill -- due to the new rules regarding Ordnance and tanks firing (stupid in my opinion, but that's the current rule).

As for his Veterans, they shouldn't be too much of a problem. They die pretty quick to Gauss fire, so taking groups of warriors or immortals would be fine against them. Just make sure you have your regen protocols going on.

[Tyrendian]

the viability of Scarabs depends heavily on terrain I'd say - if you can keep them out of sight you're golden, but if there's one thing Scarabs don't like it's a Nova Cannon, or by extension most any template or blast weapon at S6 or above, especially if it ignores cover... and at 1k points the Scarabs aren't even as much of a throwaway unit as they would be in larger games. If your terrain collection doesn't contain many big blocks to hide behind, I'd probably take the newly T5 Wraiths over Scarabs, also because they pretty much ignore Lasgun fire from the vets.

[Mr Mystery]

the viability of Scarabs depends heavily on terrain I'd say - if you can keep them out of sight you're golden, but if there's one thing Scarabs don't like it's a Nova Cannon, or by extension most any template or blast weapon at S6 or above, especially if it ignores cover... and at 1k points the Scarabs aren't even as much of a throwaway unit as they would be in larger games. If your terrain collection doesn't contain many big blocks to hide behind, I'd probably take the newly T5 Wraiths over Scarabs, also because they pretty much ignore Lasgun fire from the vets.

Scarabs do remain cheap and cheerful though. Whilst Nova Cannon are to Scarabs are as say, Hammers to Kittens*, it's a shot your opponent will have to take. Nobody wants Scarabs up in their engine grill. You can use that forced target priority to your advantage :)


*Mystery Industries do not endorse cruelty to any life form. Not even Hipsters.

[Valdier]

Thank you for all the info on this thread. I think Scarabs and especially wraiths will be exceptionally helpful next go around.

[Katharon]

Be sure to give us an update on how your next battle went.

[Valdier]

Unfortunately after the first game, the player hasn't returned for another game yet. I've done pretty well against gray knights and blood angels though.

[SnakeChisler]

New Wraiths at T5 supported by scarabs

[Valdier]

New Wraiths at T5 supported by scarabs

Scarabs are terrible... but since they are required for reclamation legion, I do have minimum numbers at least.

[w7west]

Overlord/lord/cryptek with staff of light and veil of darkness
joined to unit of 5-10 warscythe lychguard

this unit combo can be fielded for 215 pts and scaled up when you play bigger games. There are a lot of applications and killing armor is a big one.

what this combo does is deploy with the rest of your army and on your first turn, teleport right in front of the enemies armored units, and run to correct any scatter from the deep strike. At the start of your opponents following turn, pop the staff of light. Your opponent can only fire snap shots at that unit now, nerfing most big and small guns they would bring to bear on the unit so it will remain largely intact. On your second turn you are multicharging with dozens of str7 armor bane attacks into rear armor!

this unit lends itself well to take all comers decurion armies as well which is nice. Basically just don't throw them at a unit of paladins.. Or do, they will hold their own but there are better units for that, particularly wraiths.

[Djbz]

Overlord/lord/cryptek with staff of light and veil of darkness
joined to unit of 5-10 warscythe lychguard

this unit combo can be fielded for 215 pts and scaled up when you play bigger games. There are a lot of applications and killing armor is a big one.

what this combo does is deploy with the rest of your army and on your first turn, teleport right in front of the enemies armored units, and run to correct any scatter from the deep strike. At the start of your opponents following turn, pop the staff of light. Your opponent can only fire snap shots at that unit now, nerfing most big and small guns they would bring to bear on the unit so it will remain largely intact. On your second turn you are multicharging with dozens of str7 armor bane attacks into rear armor!

this unit lends itself well to take all comers decurion armies as well which is nice. Basically just don't throw them at a unit of paladins.. Or do, they will hold their own but there are better units for that, particularly wraiths.

I assume you mean the solar staff? (as the staff of light is just a gun)
Isn't the veil of darkness also a relic? ( Thus needing 2 characters)

[w7west]

I assume you mean the solar staff? (as the staff of light is just a gun)
Isn't the veil of darkness also a relic? ( Thus needing 2 characters)

yep I meant solar staff. Also I did not notice that characters can only have one relic. Anyone with codex in hand can confirm?

[w7west]

I assume you mean the solar staff? (as the staff of light is just a gun)
Isn't the veil of darkness also a relic? ( Thus needing 2 characters)

The only restriction on relics in the necron codex is that you may only have one of each relic per army. One lord can carry both the solar staff and the veil of darkness. Or in the case of a decurion detachment, your overlord would carry both, clocking in at a reasonable 120pts.

[Andrew Thomas]

Be careful of Tank Shock against Wraiths, and your other Fearless units. It's just not worth it to Death or Glory. While you may luck out and get a Glance, odds are you're going to just be out a model most of the time with nothing to show for it. If he isn't forcing 5+/6+ Reanimation rolls, he's screwed up. Just take him apart piecemeal and you'll do alright.

[Djbz]

The only restriction on relics in the necron codex is that you may only have one of each relic per army. One lord can carry both the solar staff and the veil of darkness. Or in the case of a decurion detachment, your overlord would carry both, clocking in at a reasonable 120pts.

Page 65 (Necrons Wargear List)
Artefacts of the Aeons:
A model may take ONE of the following.

Can't have them both on one guy, codex is very clear.

[w7west]

Page 65 (Necrons Wargear List)
Artefacts of the Aeons:
A model may take ONE of the following.

Can't have them both on one guy, codex is very clear.

Dang, I didn't catch that. Well this makes the destroyer cult more attractive for decurion since you get the second needed lord and give the unit a nice boost via preferred enemy.