Embarrassed about Beastman. Am I alone?

[cypher623]

I waited sooo long for the new Beastmen list and now that it is out I am embarrassed for GW. The special characters are unimaginative and unplayable. The rare choices look thrown together and slipshod. The "lore of the wild" is wildly uncompetative with other list specific lores, compare this to Skaven, for example. The army list was gutted when they removed trolls, ogres, shaggoths (where they first appeared); dragon ogres core minotaurs, none of which have been replaced with anything remotely interesting. The overall work shows little imagination and less effort. Am I the only one who feels this way? if so, please commiserate, if not, then please educate me because I am missing something.

[Mike X]

I know barely anything about Beastmen, or WFB for that matter, but when I first read that the Beastmen would be losing so many units, I was astounded. Like I said, I didn't know anything more about them then as I do now, but it just seemed like way too many removals from an army.

[guzkull]

For me the most dissapointing thing was losing Skirmish. Skirmish was what set Beasts of Chaos apart and thus got me started with them.

Losing several units (especially Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths) hurt badly as well. It doesn't help that I don't much like the new options.

For myself, I see a lot of negatives with the new book, but no positives. Its dissapointing.

[Lanparth]

First of all, despite no longer being Core, Minotaurs are disgustingly dangerous now. High strength, lots of upgrades, and with the right support they are a battering ram.

One of my two units of Minotaurs are S8. Thats insane.

Next, you can still field skirmishers, Ungor Skirmishers.

Next. The Ghorgon is an amazing monster. The Cygor is at least interesting. And the Jabberthingy is alright.

The real weakness of this list is the fact its Core units are meh. Bestigors are highly priced figures $$ wise (even by GW standards), and offer little for that value, and the magic sucks.

But make no mistake, despite no longer being Core, Minotaurs are better than ever.

[RocketRollRebel]

Yeah loss of unruly stopped me from starting Beasts and WHFB yet again. I guess ungors can skirmish but aren't they kinda fail anyway?

Minotaurs are pretty nuts from what I have especially when you have bulging muscles on your kneecaps... just saying

[elrodogg]

With 8th edition around the corner, we don't know exactly how the book will play in the new edition.

What we do know is that the book is awful in 7th edition. The biggest problem the book faces is shooting. It has an abysmal level of armor saves. Minos get a 5+ from shooting (negligible), the rare choices again are weak against shooting. What's worse is the lack of psychology protection. While some troops are frenzied, most of them will be taking panic checks galore. If the army takes magic as a means to project force outside of ungor skirmishers (as in takes a level 4 mage), the leadership goes down even futher.

If the list wants to do well against shooting, its' basically forced to take scouting harpies, which tie up your special slots, keeping minos out of the list.

Oh and did you notice that minos are 63pts each with great weapons? T4, 3 wounds, 5+ armor save. That's 21pts for a T4 wound, or double that of most T4 wounds in the game.

Now lets laugh at gors.

[S0ULDU5T]

In my gaming group of about 10-15 we have a couple fo beastment plyers including one vet and one new player and beastmen clean house pretty well. Despite the rule changes which I've only heard good things aboutseems very competitive. I myself played a 1500 pt game last night and the game ended with my two stegadons on the board and him having 2 units of his own on the board so just completly wiped each other out. (1 stegadon was hurt badly too).

I know this is primarily a 40k fansite with amatuer aspects of other games but to me it would seem that change often has negatives attached to it but that the changes to beastmen definatly seem to be for the better. We have a tourney coming up here soon, I'll keep an eye on how they do and try to report back.

[Idaeus]

When I heard the beastmen were being redone I decided they would be my army choice for the next edition. I really liked the old models. Regardless of how good the rules are I hate the new models with a passion! They don't look half as good and cost twice as much, so I was rather dissapointed with this army release... I think it will be wood elves for me next edition.

[Col_Festus]

I myself played a 1500 pt game last...

The problem is the points level. GW stated that the new books (skaven onward) which were designed for 8th edition were balanced at 3000 point levels. At a seminar when asked about standard point levels of GWs two big systems they said 5th edition 40k was balanced at 2000 (up from 1500) and WHFB was 3000 (up from 2250). Watch how crazy things change once you throw a few lords in there..



I think beasts will be a good book once 8th comes out. I have a feeling a lot of the points and such will make more sense. As well as the loss of skirmishing. I have a feeling pysch is going to change A TON in 8th and as such some of the stats might make better sense then. As well as the higher strengths and such. I do know from an interview with one of the designers they said that in 8th you wouldn't be able to take ward saves + armor anymore. It will be one or the other, which ever is better. This might explain the price hike in high strength items..

[Vogon]

For me the thing that has put me off the most was losing minotaurs as core. What makes it even more ridiculous is the fact that they've finally given us minotaur heros as well as the lord choice.

My 30 stron minotaur army will now be languishing in the cupboard unless I can pursuade folk at the LGS to play with the old rules.

Cheers

Vogon

[Melissia]

Geeze, 3000 points standard? I've never seen a WFB game played that large, though admittedly most people here play 40k.

[Bigred]

Agreed, 3000 pts is huge.

2250 games (tournament standard) already give you a crowded enough table. This seems like another attempt to force players to make their armies larger with more minis.

It that context some of those rumors about changes to combat to make it resolve in less turns make more sense. With 3000 pt games, a primary design goal will be altering the rules to get models off the table faster, so its not just a huge scrum along the centerline.

[quinn]

Well, 3000 points is standard for Ardboyz and as long as both players know their lists(and have at least a clue about their opponents) and the rules, there really isn't any problem getting a game done in 3 hours. I've played a lot of games at the 3K point level and it's kinda amazing how the 'power balance' between armies changes. O&G and Tomb Kings are both much better armies at that level, among others. At that level, things like Dragons, Special Characters and all the other units you normally won't/can't run become acceptable and add a lot of new challenges to the game. So, if you haven't played at 3K before, I suggest you give it a try.

[elrodogg]

I'm a big fan of 2999 actually. 4 characters at that level of points really allows troops/units to really shine, taking away from characterhammer.

[Lord Azaghul]

[QUOTE=Col_Festus;56409]The problem is the points level. GW stated that the new books (skaven onward) which were designed for 8th edition were balanced at 3000 point levels. At a seminar when asked about standard point levels of GWs two big systems they said 5th edition 40k was balanced at 2000 (up from 1500) and WHFB was 3000 (up from 2250). Watch how crazy things change once you throw a few lords in there..

QUOTE]

Eww. I don't have time to play a 3k game in a night!!
And giving the massive increase in fantasy cost, that's a little but much.
But I'm still holding out for 8th, hoping that some of these changed make more sense.

[mathhammer]

It seems to me the new beastman army is all about coming on behind the opponent. They have a spell to delay some shooting. Then a cygor or two to shut down enemy wizards. Minatours are really strong (and the reason why there not core) (The cygor is also a stone thrower, and a shaman can get a bolt thrower magic item.) (Special character allows you to re-roll reserves)(reserves also come in on turn 1)

So a lot of core and by turn 2 you should be on top of them.

There is also a decent list using a fast chariot spam.

[GAR]

I dunno. I guess I am in the minority, but I kinda like the new book.

I admit I have not playtested anything, but I think being able to run a lot of chariots is a plus. Add in a few units to add ranks and CR seems not to bad of a thing.

My opinion is this is a very offensive army, next to no defense. No armor, or really poor armor options, weak shooting, weaksih magic. I think this army runs on getting off the charge and breaking things on the first round of combat. I don't think it has any real staying power, and to me, the whole army is geared this way.

I mean look at the options to get hatred, and possibly frenzy. Ok I know frenzy is a longshot, but maybe every third game or so some unti will get it. But with a lot of cheap units, I see options to bait and the jump on and smash pursuing units.

Low leadership is an issue, but that's nothing new for half of the armies out there. Away from the general they kinda stink.

Anyhoo, my thoughts.

[jamesTFL]

They seems like new ogres to me. The Doombull and mino characters can bring a world of hurt, new mino can add oomph as well. Couple that with very cheap flexible skirmisher to redirect and screen, and lots of chariots to counter charge and you have a reasonable force.

The power is in the special slots, rares are garbage and troops are just for skirmishign ungors and chariots, laod points in to characters and specials and you have a shot.

I think this book isnt up to the recent book power levesl but it is a big help to old beastmen

[cypher623]

They seems like new ogres to me. The Doombull and mino characters can bring a world of hurt, new mino can add oomph as well. Couple that with very cheap flexible skirmisher to redirect and screen, and lots of chariots to counter charge and you have a reasonable force.

The power is in the special slots, rares are garbage and troops are just for skirmishign ungors and chariots, laod points in to characters and specials and you have a shot.

I think this book isnt up to the recent book power levesl but it is a big help to old beastmen

i completely agree with your observations regarding the mino characters, especially the addition of the hero level mino, he is great. I also like the minos, but I think they are pricy even for what you get. I have played a block of minos; w/ doombull and bsb mino about 12 strong total, hand weapon and shield and it really was a steamroller. Maybe this unit with a ton of 20* ungor units and a couple of small skirmisher units; keep half of these in ambush and hope they come in behind those gunlines/warmachines; or get a "Malanchi Crunch" by coming in beside/behind a unit. to me the rare choices are completely useless; like they were just thrown in and they are just too expensive...

old minos, ran all minos with the mark of zeentch; a gazillion casting dice and three wargor/casters got me through the first round of the ardboys last year, so I can't quite agree about the book being a big help at least as far as an all mino list goes. still, to each his own. thanks for the replyl

[Lord Azaghul]

battaltion box for beast men coming: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=9200012a bottom of the page, no price I noticed.

That has to be the absolute worst boxset ever. Seriously 40 dudes? Any beastmen player already has those, and any newbie it's really going to be sucked in by that. It they didn't charge for much for bestigors and minitors they could have afforded to through something interesting in that box.:confused:

[Chumbalaya]

A very underwhelming release for sure. Models sucked overall (Doombull was ok), and that Battalion blows.

However, the army itself is pretty damn good. Lots of cheap, mobile Core backed by some solid characters, Specials and Rares.

Ambush is a big departure, I'm not a fan of the overall randomness but going on turn 1 is pretty handy. Use it for cheap Gor/Ungor units to hit flanks.

Lore of the Wild has some handy spells and with the buffing Brays got (especially that flying fella) Beasts actually have a good magic phase.

Gorebulls are murder machines, stick 'em in a unit of Gors for Fear protection and munch on stuff.

Gors themselves have WS4 and T4 going for them, but it's best to keep them in MSU style unless they are escorting a Gorebull.

Ungors are decent flankers, kinda meh when skirmishers are so useful.

Hounds rock as always.

Tuskgor chariots are cheap and smashy, it would be easy to make a Core out of just these.

Minos are unimpressive, Frenzy and no real protection hurts. Razorgors are so much better, despite having an even more atrocious model.

Razorgor chariots are win, Harpies are win, Bestigors are fail.

Cygor is super useful, Jabberjaw is win, Ghorgon is meh (good stats but Frenzy is fail), Giants and Spawn are fail.

It's a huge improvement, a lot like the Tyranid Codex (which, IIRC got poo poo'd when it dropped too). It's revamped the army and made it something different, so you'll basically have to relearn it. Try and run it like you did your old armies and you will be disappointed.

[Randroid]

I'm with you with the exception of the Minos vs Razorgors.

Razorgors rely on their T to save them while Minos can have a some armor and a champ to keep them alive. I don't know if they are the best special choice if you aren't focusing on taking alot of them though ...

[Chumbalaya]

I like Razorgors for the speed, their own buffs and the overall lower cost. Pumbaa is more for flanking and tearing things up, and I find Gors (even Bestigors) with a Gorebull BSB can be the anvil-ish. Minos are just too squishy to hold stuff off on their own. They'll murder Skellies, but what won't?

[Lord Azaghul]

But those razorgors are soooo ugly.

Well I don't actually play the army anyway, but prior to the new book, BoC was the only chaos army I would have ever remotely considered - and that was mainly play style. I've my other armies have all the block troopage I need/want.

[Chumbalaya]

I would never use the GW stock, they're horribad. Modified Chaos Spawn ftw.

[Gnoblar with Pointy Stick]

I fought the new Beastmen recently, and they took me down pretty easy.
I'm not one to toot my own horn, but that doesn't happen every day. While the models are still not fabulous and the book seems stripped down to its bones, they are a very tactically sound army. If I loved the Chaos fluff and clicked with the play style I would be very satisfied with the new book.

[Liazardman]

I have to admit, the new bestigors are nice looking models, they are my favorite unit look wise in the army. They also kill things... lots of things. I played them wrong when i started, I would throw my lord in there and attract a boatload of shooting , magic and big monsters with characters on top. I find the lords actually do better supporting the gors the extra killyness is great in those units.

The biggest issue in the army and one that has lost me 4/6games ive played outright is panic. I have had turns where 4 or 5 units panic. I had a game that I called a wash because it never got started. On turn 1 a Terror Causing flier landed on one flank... that unit broke, bounced through the entire battle line and paniced everythign except a chariot and a unit of ungors. By turn 3 when the game ended I had 1 unit that made it out of my deployment zone and i got beaten 20-0.

[Lord Azaghul]

The biggest issue in the army and one that has lost me 4/6games ive played outright is panic. I have had turns where 4 or 5 units panic. I had a game that I called a wash because it never got started. On turn 1 a Terror Causing flier landed on one flank... that unit broke, bounced through the entire battle line and paniced everythign except a chariot and a unit of ungors. By turn 3 when the game ended I had 1 unit that made it out of my deployment zone and i got beaten 20-0.

Holy Crap! Something is this game still uses the psychology rules? Has GW lost their minds!?!


Its about freaking time, I've tired of every new release being strewn with ITPsy.